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Ah ha Moment

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  • jut111jut111  1758Members Posts: 1,758
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    Ever get that lesson?
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
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    jut111 wrote:


    Ever get that lesson?




    Unfortunately life has not allowed the ability to get that lesson. Golfing is currently the only Get away/vacation from real life. So I am going to enjoy it as much as I can while trying to self improve. This post actually is quite late actually I was hesitant to post and keep dragging this on with out a lesson. But I thought I would share anyways.
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  • Treyball344Treyball344  144Members Posts: 144
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    Anyone with limited flexibility in their hips have issues making "golf turn" movement. I'm only 23 so I don't have the old age tightness that others may have but I've been told by chiropractors and trainers that my hips are extremely locked up. Is this movement still possible? Any recommendations? (other than doing yoga 5 days a week cuz no thx)
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
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    Anyone with limited flexibility in their hips have issues making "golf turn" movement. I'm only 23 so I don't have the old age tightness that others may have but I've been told by chiropractors and trainers that my hips are extremely locked up. Is this movement still possible? Any recommendations? (other than doing yoga 5 days a week cuz no thx)




    So with this as a point. If you have the time to read through. Hip rotation might not be the only facet but the whole torso separation. generating speed is the goal and by generating speed you do it with any anatomical body function you have.





    look at a guy like Craig Stadler vs Jamie Sadlowski. Some what different hip rotations. Jamie though increases it by lead knee flex and turning away from the target. Now add in arm separation and elevation and you get tremendous speed.





    Anyways. My point is being 36 and 5'8" I know I wont be Tour long, But I am long for my amateur circle that I play. I use my body efficiently now as well as increase by transfer of power efficiently. The biggest issue and error I am working on per this thread IS the consistency of ball flight to become predictable. Being long but inconsistent and spraying my shots does not help.





    So when anticipating hip rotation..... is it really lack of or is it something else that does not allow you to rotate and generate speed?
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
    Joined:  edited Jan 8, 2019 8:53pm #96
    jut111 wrote:


    Ever get that lesson?




    UPDATE! 2019 wife and kids away, I GOT THAT LESSON!!!!!!!



    1-1/2 hours on a Track-man with the instructor. ( I finally gave in, since I shot 81 Thursday, 79 Saturday and blew up 97 Sunday )



    Golf has sucked per my prior topic post about golf deterioration, Age, practice etc. of course its all of the above. BUT it seems that I have been fishing for an ah ha moment that would NEVER be.





    So what happened at this lesson.



    1) Absolute biggest give away, LACK of timing. Instructor noticed that each shot that was loose. I was speeding up my transition. So while the GOLF swing was fundamentally fine. Because I would RUSH the down swing, EVERYTHING fell out of sync. The hips would not bump the shoulders would move towards the target. Thus the hips stalled, hands needed to catch up, then the flip and all **** broke loose.





    2) Second major catch was legs in general, He said I needed to get the legs working first. When I would *rush* the down swing, the shoulders were moving first. HE wanted my lower body activating faster. (Or at least at the same time as the shoulder sequence) he stated everything was out of sequence once the timing or *Rushing* the down swing started.







    We then spent the better half of the initial lesson, getting a rhythm tied down. He wanted to first get the "Consistency" going I swear I hit about 100+ golf balls just getting a feeling of timing. While its going to take months to get a timing nailed down its something MORE to be conscious of and think about.



    From there, it was to "PROVE" a point that if I change my timing. The shots would stray, IT was NOT my mechanics or lack there of or a swing fault it was PURELY timing that made my golf swing suffer.



    NOW to straightening out all the numbers (Path, face angle and ball flight) Take it back to page 2, and post #36 ( HITTING with my right side). Funny June 4th is when I posted this, and up to this point I think I just forgot about it...... now Jan 2019 the instructor is getting me YET again rotating to the left and trying to feel like Im hitting with my right side.







    200+ balls later. and now with the driver @ hand (remember that 97 , yeah 5 OB's on Sunday. no consistency and confidence with the driver) once I nailed to the "timing" and sequence, I did NOT lose a single shot on trackman today. I hit 1 totally bad shot just because of mental lapse. BUT other than that, all playable in the fairway.





    WHILE I will NOT say this Instruction is the Holy Grail, IT did infuse confidence. It did validate that the SWING was sound. I did NOT lack mechanical ability but consistency and timing.



    Once I metronome a swing sequence the rest of the golf swing is sound enough to create much better results. Rather than so many faults that would need a whole revamp.



    The instructor did NOT want to change anything in the golf swing itself out side of the getting the legs working first. But again Timing.... thats it.....



    Amazing....... Hopefully...... this can eventually translate....... we shall see.... Happy 2019 everyone!
    Posted:
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  • pappaf2pappaf2  3475Members Posts: 3,475
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    jut111 wrote:


    Ever get that lesson?




    UPDATE! 2019 wife and kids away, I GOT THAT LESSON!!!!!!!



    1-1/2 hours on a Track-man with the instructor. ( I finally gave in, since I shot 81 Thursday, 79 Saturday and blew up 97 Sunday )



    Golf has sucked per my prior topic post about golf deterioration, Age, practice etc. of course its all of the above. BUT it seems that I have been fishing for an ah ha moment that would NEVER be.





    So what happened at this lesson.



    1) Absolute biggest give away, LACK of timing. Instructor noticed that each shot that was loose. I was speeding up my transition. So while the GOLF swing was fundamentally fine. Because I would RUSH the down swing, EVERYTHING fell out of sync. The hips would not bump the shoulders would move towards the target. Thus the hips stalled, hands needed to catch up, then the flip and all **** broke loose.





    2) Second major catch was legs in general, He said I needed to get the legs working first. When I would *rush* the down swing, the shoulders were moving first. HE wanted my lower body activating faster. (Or at least at the same time as the shoulder sequence) he stated everything was out of sequence once the timing or *Rushing* the down swing started.







    We then spent the better half of the initial lesson, getting a rhythm tied down. He wanted to first get the "Consistency" going I swear I hit about 100+ golf balls just getting a feeling of timing. While its going to take months to get a timing nailed down its something MORE to be conscious of and think about.



    From there, it was to "PROVE" a point that if I change my timing. The shots would stray, IT was NOT my mechanics or lack there of or a swing fault it was PURELY timing that made my golf swing suffer.



    NOW to straightening out all the numbers (Path, face angle and ball flight) Take it back to page 2, and post #36 ( HITTING with my right side). Funny June 4th is when I posted this, and up to this point I think I just forgot about it...... now Jan 2019 the instructor is getting me YET again rotating to the left and trying to feel like Im hitting with my right side.







    200+ balls later. and now with the driver @ hand (remember that 97 , yeah 5 OB's on Sunday. no consistency and confidence with the driver) once I nailed to the "timing" and sequence, I did NOT lose a single shot on trackman today. I hit 1 totally bad shot just because of mental lapse. BUT other than that, all playable in the fairway.





    WHILE I will NOT say this Instruction is the Holy Grail, IT did infuse confidence. It did validate that the SWING was sound. I did NOT lack mechanical ability but consistency and timing.



    Once I metronome a swing sequence the rest of the golf swing is sound enough to create much better results. Rather than so many faults that would need a whole revamp.



    The instructor did NOT want to change anything in the golf swing itself out side of the getting the legs working first. But again Timing.... thats it.....



    Amazing....... Hopefully...... this can eventually translate....... we shall see.... Happy 2019 everyone!




    I have a feeling I am suffering from a similar affliction. How did the instructor propose you improve your timing? Just the metronome?
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
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    Stanks wrote:




    I'm not in the same exact boat as you but, I do feel ya, player.



    Here is to you hoping you get better and I do as well. Keep playing and keep at it pal!




    Thanks! Its funny been on this site for a while and never had an actual lesson lesson. Had "Fittings" and generic lunch time shooting the breeze, but this is the first time I put some money down, get in front of a trackman and had a go. So It might be a step forward


    pappaf2 wrote:




    I have a feeling I am suffering from a similar affliction. How did the instructor propose you improve your timing? Just the metronome?




    Sorry at this point he did NOT give me a "technique" for timing specifically, but he was pointing out a bunch of things.



    1) When I rush the Down swing that is when it falls apart (Stop rushing the down swing) Take it back and get the natural pause. then fire through



    2) The top of the downswing is NOT where the power actually comes from, its from hip high to hip high. So instead of trying to rush the down swing, get the swing moving properly and the acceleration or power starts at the hip height.



    3) MY golf swing is fundamentally sound. SO if I hit a bad SHOT its not because of setup, or technique or shifting or anything mechanical, Its 90% timing that I have a huge inconsistency from his outside observation. When I get into a good rhythm all my shots start to become focused and the dispersion really tightens up.



    3a) Caveat, WHEN I hit a bad shot, dont start "tweaking" Stuff to straighten it out. ITS more than likely a missed timing. If I tweak and get back on my natural timing Im going to make the shot WORSE. STOP messing around with the swing, ITS NOT my swing it is my Timing (edification from the instructor)



    4) Practice Practice Practice.





    Timing is so player specific, so its just trying to find and stay with my natural timing and then focus on it if it loses or goes out of sync.



    I know its NOT much of an answer, I understood what he was trying to convey yet lack of a good exerciser because its kinda hard to perfect timing. (Here comes youtube I guess LOL)





    But again..... For myself specifically and from his observation, my lack of firing my legs and the rushing of the down swing is the source of my inconsistencies.
    Posted:
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
    Joined:  #99
    pappaf2 wrote:


    I have a feeling I am suffering from a similar affliction. How did the instructor propose you improve your timing? Just the metronome?








    Quick Update all.... So had an interesting round yesterday after implementing the lesson. WHILE its the honey moon stage it did verify a couple items



    Shot an 80 with a 2 stroke penalty due to hitting the wrong ball. (IT was my fault, but funny that both our balls next to each other friend look down said thats not his and walked to the other, assuming it was mine I hit it, and then my friend yells back this not my ball either...AARRRRGGGGGGG....2 stroke penalty.)





    So outside of that solid round after losing 7 balls on Sunday and quiting after 15. I did NOT lost ANY balls Yesterday and my "misses" as of course I would have them were still in play and able to give me a scramble chance which I did excellent on 4 holes.



    With that- PAPPAF2. I did try something the last couple days to come up with "some" type of technique for the timing thing.





    So Wednesday night after you posted and asked me what I could do I thought about it. Went into my living room took my setup and started to "figure" out what my timing was? I created an artificial timing. What I mean is. I took my normal swing and counted it out. 1,2,3....etc.... What I found was. from take away to the top of my back swing it was a count of 2. on 3 Is when I started my down swing. This was MY tempo.



    So yesterday ON every single SHOT, I counted...... 1, 2, 3,fired at the ball. THIS is how I kept my timing consistent ALL day through the course and it seemed to work EXTREMELY well. More so during the couple of holes with lulls between holes where your timing can get really bad... I just fell back on the count. 1,2,3. It may be shorter or longer but I would say count it out... and see where you are. You may have a really LONG, or deliberate swing or a short fast swing. BUT if its consistent. its a start.





    HONEY moon stage for SURE... But its nice to have some confidence back and results with it.... Hopefully with the counting its will keep things way more consistent.





    Hope that gives a little direction
    Posted:
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  • PJ72PJ72  1933Members Posts: 1,933
    Joined:  #100
    Irae133 wrote:


    I'm right there with you, Ex. I just had everything click for me today and I took myself to the range to give it a shot. I've know about Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion video for a couple years now but I've been digging deep on gwrx and other forums to find out why I'm so inconsistent. Turns out I've had an army swing my whole life and I probably would never drop by below a 12 cap unless I did figure it out.



    My session at the range was a little all over the place but I did notice I was hitting the middle of the clubface evrrytime. Misses were a combination of pulls and pushes but I believe that's just from not being used to having to square the clubface correctly with the proper swing.



    Took my new swing to league tonight and I was a little hesitant but I'd rather shoot a bad round with a proper swing than keep swinging with my arms. I ended up shooting a 43 but that was because I couldn't get off the tee box (I didn't trust myself yet with the new swing to do it off the box). I guess I should have because on the three par 3s I hit the green and made par. Everything else was a punch shot to save my bad tee shot. Irons were flush all night. Had it not been for the bad hits off the box I could of snagged a 38 easily.



    Definitely going to keep swinging this way from here on out and I have great confidence I'll figure out the longer clubs soon enough. Anyway just my story on the arm swing illusion.




    So, you're just "two turns and a swish"?
    Posted:
  • PJ72PJ72  1933Members Posts: 1,933
    Joined:  #101


    One of the big keys to understanding the arm swing illusion material is the clear distinction between two types of arm motion in the golf swing: "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion".



    Dependent arm motion means arms moving through 3D space due to the pivot motion (side tilting and rotation of torso). Vast majority of arm motion in a good swing is dependent.



    Two types of independent arm motion: arm muscles moving the upper arm in the shoulder joint, and also pivot momentum causing the upper arm to move in the shoulder socket.



    Arm muscles moving the arm happens only during takeaway. Pivot momentum moving the upper arm in the socket happens mainly on the forward swing during Transition.Right elbow straightening also contributes to the momentum moving the arms in the socket as does gravity a little bit.



    The three Triangle arm pressures allow the Triangle to stay intact during the swing, which allows pivot and arm motion to be synchronized.



    The word "swing" connotes a ton of independent arm motion, which is why golfers struggle so much with inconsistent golf shotsl



    Massive potential range of motion in 360 degrees direction in the upper arm to socket - huge source of inconsistency if you are actively "swinging the arms" from shoulder sockets during Release into impact.




    I wish I could get a lesson from you...in the UK.
    Posted:
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools  3229Sponsors Posts: 3,229
    Joined:  #102
    PJ72 wrote:



    One of the big keys to understanding the arm swing illusion material is the clear distinction between two types of arm motion in the golf swing: "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion".



    Dependent arm motion means arms moving through 3D space due to the pivot motion (side tilting and rotation of torso). Vast majority of arm motion in a good swing is dependent.



    Two types of independent arm motion: arm muscles moving the upper arm in the shoulder joint, and also pivot momentum causing the upper arm to move in the shoulder socket.



    Arm muscles moving the arm happens only during takeaway. Pivot momentum moving the upper arm in the socket happens mainly on the forward swing during Transition.Right elbow straightening also contributes to the momentum moving the arms in the socket as does gravity a little bit.



    The three Triangle arm pressures allow the Triangle to stay intact during the swing, which allows pivot and arm motion to be synchronized.



    The word "swing" connotes a ton of independent arm motion, which is why golfers struggle so much with inconsistent golf shotsl



    Massive potential range of motion in 360 degrees direction in the upper arm to socket - huge source of inconsistency if you are actively "swinging the arms" from shoulder sockets during Release into impact.




    I wish I could get a lesson from you...in the UK.




    I will be doing London golf schools late Sept/first week of October. PM me for details.
    Posted:
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it...  4750Members Posts: 4,750
    Joined:  edited Jan 11, 2019 4:43pm #103

    PJ72 wrote:



    One of the big keys to understanding the arm swing illusion material is the clear distinction between two types of arm motion in the golf swing: "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion".



    Dependent arm motion means arms moving through 3D space due to the pivot motion (side tilting and rotation of torso). Vast majority of arm motion in a good swing is dependent.



    Two types of independent arm motion: arm muscles moving the upper arm in the shoulder joint, and also pivot momentum causing the upper arm to move in the shoulder socket.



    Arm muscles moving the arm happens only during takeaway. Pivot momentum moving the upper arm in the socket happens mainly on the forward swing during Transition.Right elbow straightening also contributes to the momentum moving the arms in the socket as does gravity a little bit.



    The three Triangle arm pressures allow the Triangle to stay intact during the swing, which allows pivot and arm motion to be synchronized.



    The word "swing" connotes a ton of independent arm motion, which is why golfers struggle so much with inconsistent golf shotsl



    Massive potential range of motion in 360 degrees direction in the upper arm to socket - huge source of inconsistency if you are actively "swinging the arms" from shoulder sockets during Release into impact.




    I wish I could get a lesson from you...in the UK.




    I will be doing London golf schools late Sept/first week of October. PM me for details.




    Im going to surely give a thumbs up for Jim! While our schedules never synchronized to meet and have a lesson (Sucks being on a rock in the middle of the pacific ocean) his philosophies per my initial post are where the catalyst of understanding terms and functions BETTER. While I lacked the initial comprehension, I now understand it BETTER. Jim's instruction (GolfWRX, Youtube) has been a big factor to my "Golf IQ"



    Indirectly Jim Thank you so much!!!
    Posted:
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  • PJ72PJ72  1933Members Posts: 1,933
    Joined:  #104

    pappaf2 wrote:


    uscheese wrote:


    share!!




    OK, I am humble enough when to admit I am wrong..... SO here we go.





    first off, I am here with my tail tucked between my legs to say, I had a chance to run out to the range yesterday, I got videos, I am VERY disappointed from the Video results. But the shot results as well as consistency is still surprisingly good.





    So now with 2018 and this Ah Ha moment, I figured 2 things Was SUPPOSED to happen,



    1) My arms would be/should be pulling LESS across my chest (Because my first part was that I would rotate with my shoulders only and not with my arms)

    2) My Down swing would have less EE and better rotation and NO stall because I am now trying to hit the ball with my right side of the body.







    Well..... Yeah complete fail, Its seems like I am getting WAY more Early extension now and the hip stall is still there.



    SORRY still editing the new video should have it up tonight.....



    SOOOO.. Now back to the drawing board..... for the physical aspect, THE mental aspect is there. Confidence is high, consistency is there but the swing still looks horrible.




    Does it really matter it looks like if you are getting the results you want? If you are controlling the golf ball as you want don't change anything for aesthetics sake.




    Thats the weird PART! I agree to this extent BUT..



    Then I now ask a really bad questions. Was my Ah HA moment more Mental and allowed me to un-clutter my mind for the shots rather than being an actual SWING fix?





    This is what pisses me off.... Was my mind holding me back MORE than the errors in my swing. What.... would happen if I actually FIXED my swing...rather than just Thinking I fixed my swing LOL!?






    Yes. That's exactly what happened. I can't remember who talked about this on this website (might've actually been Jim Waldron himself). The jist of it is that you've tricked your subconscious into thinking about something else, rather than thinking about technique. It's simply thinking about getting the clubhead to the ball correctly. Something like that.
    Posted:
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools  3229Sponsors Posts: 3,229
    Joined:  #105
    PJ72 wrote:


    pappaf2 wrote:


    uscheese wrote:


    share!!




    OK, I am humble enough when to admit I am wrong..... SO here we go.





    first off, I am here with my tail tucked between my legs to say, I had a chance to run out to the range yesterday, I got videos, I am VERY disappointed from the Video results. But the shot results as well as consistency is still surprisingly good.





    So now with 2018 and this Ah Ha moment, I figured 2 things Was SUPPOSED to happen,



    1) My arms would be/should be pulling LESS across my chest (Because my first part was that I would rotate with my shoulders only and not with my arms)

    2) My Down swing would have less EE and better rotation and NO stall because I am now trying to hit the ball with my right side of the body.







    Well..... Yeah complete fail, Its seems like I am getting WAY more Early extension now and the hip stall is still there.



    SORRY still editing the new video should have it up tonight.....



    SOOOO.. Now back to the drawing board..... for the physical aspect, THE mental aspect is there. Confidence is high, consistency is there but the swing still looks horrible.




    Does it really matter it looks like if you are getting the results you want? If you are controlling the golf ball as you want don't change anything for aesthetics sake.




    Thats the weird PART! I agree to this extent BUT..



    Then I now ask a really bad questions. Was my Ah HA moment more Mental and allowed me to un-clutter my mind for the shots rather than being an actual SWING fix?





    This is what pisses me off.... Was my mind holding me back MORE than the errors in my swing. What.... would happen if I actually FIXED my swing...rather than just Thinking I fixed my swing LOL!?






    Yes. That's exactly what happened. I can't remember who talked about this on this website (might've actually been Jim Waldron himself). The jist of it is that you've tricked your subconscious into thinking about something else, rather than thinking about technique. It's simply thinking about getting the clubhead to the ball correctly. Something like that.




    Yes, that is a form of the placebo effect, and also has a positive effect because your mind-brain/body connection is much stronger (think more bandwidth and thus better ability to coordinate moving body parts) simply due to the fact when you have a strong belief and mental clarity about your swing, your mind lacks the "usual chaos, doubt, anxiety" and so your body performs better.



    But - real light bulb moments also exist and need to happen if your desire is to move beyond placebo and train your body to work better.
    Posted:
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