Another TW Topic - Putting

A.PrinceyA.Princey Major HackerMembers Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
Ever since the 2018 Hero(or thereabouts, not sure actually when I noticed) his stance/posture and stroke all look very weird to me. I compared footage from 2000 and 2008 to now, and he seemed to stand taller before, with the ball ~3" closer to his toes. Also, his hands seemed much closer to his thighs, sweeping fairly close during the stroke, which also gave the appearance of a shallower shaft angle(possibly toe up slightly at times).



I don't know why, but this new setup looks really manufactured and nothing like vintage Tiger, but maybe his back fusion necessitated the change? I think he putted well early this year with it, why change?



His old stroke looked pure and gave me the impression that everything had a chance to go in. Surely someone else feels this way?
'16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
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  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    edited Aug 26, 2018 #2
    Here's some pics, the first 2 are from earlier in his career and the one on the right is now. Seems like he's hunched more now, more knee bend and his elbows are less connected to his body in the putting stroke. He's got more arm movement now with his elbows out and away from his mid-section. I apologize for the crappy rendering.



    The putter shaft used to point at his belt buckle, but now it's pointing almost above his belly button. Almost looks like he's popping his wrists out to parallel the shaft with his forearms. Old tiger had some shaft angle at the wrists. Again, he seems less connected in the stroke if that makes sense.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    edited Aug 26, 2018 #3
    Heres one last recent pic, hands are definitely out and shaft is more vertical(or at least out). Doesn't this look like an uncomfortable setup position compared to the first pic on the left above??? Seriously, I knew something was odd looking from watching these past few months but thought I was just imagining it, however this confirms my suspicions.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • McCann1McCann1 Tour Player Members Posts: 1,732 ✭✭
    He has made changes. Check out PotterPutting on instagram. He putted terribly until making these changes. Let’s not overreact to an off week
    Enjoy the chase.
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    No overreacting, just addressing something that seems very visual. For some reason his new setup has me doubting even the gimme putts lately. Again, looks very forced. Just my observation though.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • widow-makerwidow-maker Members Posts: 1,631 ✭✭
    It could be back related. The straighter the legs puts a little more stress on the back when bending over. Besides, just naturally, there are concessions to be made to aging and Tiger changed his body type between the exercising and back problems. It's like his golf swing.... he can't physically get into the same positions he could when he was 21. You modify as needed as you get older, even if you aren't totally aware of it.
  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members Posts: 17,583 ✭✭
    When he changed his putting and chipping stroke to match his Foley stroke, things got a little wonky, and never really un-wonky'd, from my observations. Arguably one of the best short game players and clutch putter of all time, went ahead and changed it.



    Golfers are weird.
    run of the mill driver with stock shaft
    a couple of outdated hybrids
    shovel-ier shovels
    wedges from same shovel company
    some putter with a dead insert and
    a hideous grip
  • King_SlenderKing_Slender Members Posts: 1,483 ✭✭
    This will sound crazy, but I think he should go to a center shafted putter. I've always played an Anser style and messed around with some mallets with S-bend shafts and, after being a really good putter, struggled the last couple years on shorter putts. Recently switched to an Odyssey O-works 2M CS with a shorter shaft (33") and it sets me up perfect over the ball - alignment has been great.
  • McCann1McCann1 Tour Player Members Posts: 1,732 ✭✭
    His new stroke/setup is technically better and he’s putted better this summer with it vs earlier in the season
    Enjoy the chase.
  • farmerfarmer Members Posts: 7,977 ✭✭
    Vindog wrote:


    When he changed his putting and chipping stroke to match his Foley stroke, things got a little wonky, and never really un-wonky'd, from my observations. Arguably one of the best short game players and clutch putter of all time, went ahead and changed it.



    Golfers are weird.
    That was one of the most bizarre decisions ever made by a player and coach.
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    McCann1 wrote:


    His new stroke/setup is technically better and he’s putted better this summer with it vs earlier in the season




    Technically sound hasn't worked out for Mac too well, just saying. Jackie Burke Jr wasn't very sound but was one **** of a putter. For some reason it just looks like he could miss anything, any time now, especially the short ones. Maybe if he wins and more start dropping it will start to look better to my eye.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭


    For some reason mid way this season I started to worry more about mechanics than natural flow, and my putting got a little in disarray. I went back to basics and feel, and my putting is back on track.



    Perhaps El Tigre needs to get back to the natural flow of things.




    This is why I think he has trouble feeling the toe flow(open and close), but with his elbows tucked and wrists set in and putter head out, more headweight flows outside his hand line and the he probably feels more arc. More vertical shaft, pointed to the sternum probably favors SBST more. Maybe I'm just rambling but intuitively, it makes sense to me.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • knock it closeknock it close Members Posts: 7,945 ✭✭
    The one concerning thing is he seems to be standing over putts for ages, didn't watch a whole lot this week but it was pretty apparent at the PGA
    M2, maybe
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  • McCann1McCann1 Tour Player Members Posts: 1,732 ✭✭
    A.Princey wrote:

    McCann1 wrote:


    His new stroke/setup is technically better and he’s putted better this summer with it vs earlier in the season




    Technically sound hasn't worked out for Mac too well, just saying. Jackie Burke Jr wasn't very sound but was one **** of a putter. For some reason it just looks like he could miss anything, any time now, especially the short ones. Maybe if he wins and more start dropping it will start to look better to my eye.
    with all due respect your eye doesn’t matter. Technically sound is technically sound. I didn’t give my opinion I just said factually he is putting better now than earlier this year.
    Enjoy the chase.
  • IVMIVM Members Posts: 454 ✭✭
    I think his address position is different because of his fused back and not being able to get back into the position he could when he was younger .
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    edited Aug 26, 2018 #16
    McCann1 wrote:



    With the small sample size, coupled with early this year being re-entry into competitive rounds, and his proximity to hole much better now, you can't really compare earlier with his Scotty to recently with the mallet. Too many variables have changed to say is stroke/setup is the cure....Again, look at robot McIlroy from a year ago, tension in spades and mechanics to blame, nothing going in the hole. Putting is all about confidence and hitting center-face, beyond that it's all feel. The putting motion is not that complicated to get all wound up about, just ask Brad F.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • Night trainNight train Members Posts: 2,841 ✭✭
    Just something else to ponder.........and you young guys can't appreciate this because you haven't experienced it YET. Many peoples eyes change when they reach their early forties.........it's not life changing because you just start wearing bifocals ..........but if you're a golfer.......it has an effect because your vision is now different than it used to be. Even if he doesn't need bifocals (and most people that need them don't wear them for golf).........your vision is different than it used to be!
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,371 ✭✭
    Earlier this year, he kept missing putts left and pace was not always ideal. He likes to be right hand dominant but for me too much right hand causes the miss left. I think the tweak needs to be a more balanced stroke of shoulder rock, lead hand, all aiding right hand more. He was one of best putters, his day of dropping big ones may yet come again.
  • GolfrnutGolfrnut Members Posts: 7,322 ✭✭
    edited Aug 26, 2018 #19
    As someone that has more than a few budging discs in the lower back, the knee flex and more upright seems completely essential to me, even with a fused back (he may have additional discs as well that he hasn't openly spoke about). Getting weight on the outside of the lower body creates a lot of tension in the lower back, I never noticed it when my back wasn't bad, but can immediately feel it as my back has gotten worse. The golf swing posture itself is not as big of an issue as the posture that most have for a putting stroke IMO. Because of that, there is an eye line change unless you start doing other things to compensate.



    With that being said, his putting lines looked fine from the coverage they showed this week, he just didn't read the breaks in any of the greens well. He saw breaks on straight putts and under-read a ton of putts too. He just never started the ball on the right line, which is a good bit different from not hitting it where he wanted to.
    TM Supertri V2 w/ Speeder Evo II 6.1 TS
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  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    Yeah, his lines are off for sure, I guess I just miss his buttery smooth stroke of yesteryear. If he starts putting them in it won't matter I suppose.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • GolfrnutGolfrnut Members Posts: 7,322 ✭✭
    A.Princey wrote:


    Yeah, his lines are off for sure, I guess I just miss his buttery smooth stroke of yesteryear. If he starts putting them in it won't matter I suppose.




    He had confidence then, I image seeing putts go in would do that for you (I wouldn't truly know as I have never been "decent"). I don't think he's got faith in that part of his game yet. He's putted well and burned edges a lot more over the last few tournaments, still different that shooting a 60 and knowing it's all there. Instead of picturing the ball in the hole, I think he still has the "wonder where this will go" half way through the stroke.
    TM Supertri V2 w/ Speeder Evo II 6.1 TS
    TM Stage 2 Tour 14.5* w/ Diamana BB  S+ 70
    Taylormade P790 2 UDI w/ DG 105R 
    Taylormade R9 19* TP Rescue w/ Aldila Rip 85
    4-PW Nike VR Pro MBs w/ DG AMT White R300
    Callaway MD3 52* & 58* PM grind
    Odyssey MXM 1W
  • PowderedToastManPowderedToastMan Members Posts: 3,957 ✭✭
    Whether the back facilitated the change or not, I don’t know, but he’s definitely changed it. The shaft is more vertical and he releases the putter less, way less of a hit with the right hand, tries to keep the face very square. The changes have increased since the switch to the mallet to my eye.



    If he can’t practice as much due to the back, there’s validity in going to a stroke like that. It requires less practice in my opinion. He putted the absolute lights out at the PGA and his stroke looked great. Its always hard to argue against Tiger Woods using a Scotty, giving the ball a good hit with the right hand, and “putting to the picture” though.
    Former professional golfer. Current amateur human being. Reformed club ho.

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  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    edited Aug 26, 2018 #23
    ^Yup. I must have too many fond memories of that putter and putting stroke to put it behind me!

    Wasn't he putting great according to all the analysts his first two outings back this year, like at the Hero and next event?? This is kinda what grabbed my attention after all the mid-year troubles, they were all gushing over his stroke and how that part of his game never left.
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,371 ✭✭
    Jack was right hand dominate and his setup was somewhat unique with his chicken wing approach. But he believed, like Stockton does, that some measure of lead bow and shaft ;lean is involved in the stroke. A minutia of pre-set in back stroke. I never pick that up from Tiger, you can see it in Ricky who is a very handsy striker but not Woods. A telling thing of it is the pace coming off putter. Old Tiger buried putts, new Tiger they just roll in or dribble by. Almost like a deceleration is happening instead of peak pop at impact. I now I'm out of place saying this and coming from the "what the f*** do you know" dept. but he clearly is not up to his standards and maybe he just needs reps of tournament play, but I'm not sold new posture is the blame.
  • NokeNoke Members Posts: 2,147 ✭✭
    All a result of 1/2 old-man-itis and 1/2 baggy pants syndrome.
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    Nah, you can see where the shaft points is totally different from prime TW, also draw a vertical line from his thumbs up. Todays line goes to his throat, and old Tiger's line goes to the heart area. Also too, I thought the whole pace problem is why he went to the grooved insert, no?
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,231 ✭✭
    Scotty's back in the bag and looks like he's dropped his hands in closer to his thighs, and elbows are tucked more like vintage Tiger of old!!!! I like what I'm seeing!!!



    Silky smooth...... ('99 on left / yesterday on right)
    '16 M2 10.5*, Diamana Ltd. 70 S+ 43.5"
    Ping G SFT 16*, DIamana Ltd. 70 S+ 41.5"
    Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
    Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
    Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
    Byron DH89 Longneck 33" (or any of 10 4 other putters...)
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