Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

[Londoner]

Sounds like the whole pin in/out option could actually slow the game down. Half the guys in the foursome will want it in; half will want it out.

This one makes me chuckle. Here's the deal: You've got 4 guys on the green. The guy who is closest should always be in charge of the flagstick anyway. Three guys are gonna putt before he gets to putt. He can tend/remove/replace the pin as necessary for those guys and then set it up however he likes for his own putt. It takes no significant time to do this. Another point I'd like to make is identifying the precise type of putt where the pin provides a significant advantage—where you roll it just inside the left or right lip. When the ball starts to dip into the cup—you know, just before the dreaded horseshoe miss—the pin pinches it a little bit and often keeps the ball in the hole rather than letting it ring out. Of course, it's not all benefit with no cost. Any putts hit too strong but right at the center are likely to hit the pin and refuse to drop, but those same putts might have rammed into the back of the hole and plopped in if the pin were not present. Finally, I think it's massively hyperbolic to say this rule change "makes the game easier." The reality is this:

• Simpler for singles trying to post a handicapped round
• Simpler for dgaf types and people with mobility issues who seek to reduce movement
• Gives the player one more strategic option around the greens

I don't have any expectations about improved pace of play or anything along those lines. Dudes have a knack for turning 3 hour loops into 4:15 slogs, and the only way that's ever gonna change is if they stop playing "recreational golf." Personally, I appreciate that I can be 60 feet away and not have to worry about walking all the way over to deal with the pin before hitting my approach putt. I'm a stickler about playing by the rules—it's the only way to have a consistent baseline by which to measure improvement—and this change makes it easier to do that without "going through motions" for niggling compliance.

Since you cannot legally post rounds when playing by yourself the rule change doesn't really apply other than a warm fuzzy feeling that you are adhering to the new rule when playing alone.

 

I enjoy a warm fuzzy feeling. :swoon:

[Golfer4Life]

Single players not posting is like long putters not anchoring, right, lol....

[Londoner]

Might be easier hitting something above the ground than trying to roll a ball into a hole in the ground, or so I've heard.

What????

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Well thats that proven then. :no2:

[hybrid25]

I am going to submit a suggestion to the USGA to have the hole removed and just have the flag stick stuck in the ground. Then all the golfer has to do is have the ball touch the flagstick which would consider it holed or the hole complete. It would save the greenskeepers work, wear and tear on the greens, and would make golf rounds that much quicker.

[Londoner]

I am going to submit a suggestion to the USGA to have the hole removed and just have the flag stick stuck in the ground. Then all the golfer has to do is have the ball touch the flagstick which would consider it holed or the hole complete. It would save the greenskeepers work, wear and tear on the greens, and would make golf rounds that much quicker.

 

Just make them targets.. In outer ring add 2 shots and pick up, middle add 1, bulls eye add none. No putting required. :taunt:

[jasonfish11]

Can someone turn this into a poll question on this thread? I'd be interested to see what % of people plan to putt with the flag in.

[hybrid25]

Can someone turn this into a poll question on this thread? I'd be interested to see what % of people plan to putt with the flag in.

also include an answer that includes those who will putt their lag putt with the flag in and then pull the flag out for their two-foot putt.

[NoTalentLefty]

From outside 35 foot? In other than that mostly out, though a particularly extreme slopes might leave it in.

[PingEye2]

So, Bryson has, apparently, given it plenty of thought. I said earlier I’d probably do what he does.

 

https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/2018/11/01/bryson-dechambeau-putting-pin-2019-rules/

[Mcgeeno]

A bunch of say its a smart move months ago and the mobs get the pitchforks out.

 

Bryson says some nerd fact and everyone hops on board LOL.

 

I'll leave it in on every putt no matter the length.

[Pomps]

I like Bryson and I respect the attempt to be thoughtful and improve. I see this: Bryson leaves it in for 25 footer. Hits it 3 feet by and marks. Take it out for one partner who has a 22 footer who also misses. Third player then putts and misses too. Put the pin back in for Bryson to putt. Take the pin out for the other guys then back in to when the hole is done. This will not speed up play, especially if he then starts calculating the impact of the pin based on slope of the putt and slope of the cup.

[PingEye2]

A bunch of say its a smart move months ago and the mobs get the pitchforks out.

 

Bryson says some nerd fact and everyone hops on board LOL.

 

I'll leave it in on every putt no matter the length.

 

I said long ago that from everything I could gather leaving it in seemed like the best idea. I also said that I bet Bryson would have the actual stats. I’ll be leaving it in unless I decide it’s hurting me. Hell, I don’t hit the hole often beyond 5 feet so probably won’t make much difference

[Mcgeeno]

I respect the attempt to be thoughtful and improve. I see this: Bryson leave it in for 25 footer. Hit it 3 feet by and mark. Take it out for one partner who has a 22 foot who also misses. Third player then putts and misses too. Put the pin back in for Bryson to put. Take the pin out for the other guys then back in to when the hole is done. This will not speed up play, especially if he then starts calculating the impact of the pin based on slope of the putt and slope of the cup.

 

I don't really care how Bryson does it he's slow as molasses as it is.

 

Most of my playing partners are flag in guys as I've stated numerous times we've discussed it at length for 2019. But if I'm playing with others who are not, I'll lag it up and knock in my 3 footer and tend the flag for them. There will not be any increase in time for an amateur player except more putts will drop.

[Mcgeeno]

I said long ago that from everything I could gather leaving it in seemed like the best idea. I also said that I bet Bryson would have the actual stats. I’ll be leaving it in unless I decide it’s hurting me. Hell, I don’t hit the hole often beyond 5 feet so probably won’t make much difference

 

Yeah I tested it out the entire month of October with my buddies and there was only one instance where a ball hit the flag and kicked out on a makeable putt. I saw dozens of balls kiss the flag and drop in though. The one that kicked out was motoring too. I believe it would not have mattered if the flag was in or out. It left a two inch tap in too...

 

It constantly sounds like I'm selling something with it haha, but it was so conclusive over the month I converted any of my last playing partners by the end. The high speed balls hit the flag and drop in more often or they hit the flag and stay closer than a hard lip out would. The soft ones don't lip out because the flag keeps the ball in the hole. Long range putts are aided by a vertical flag alignment aid lol. Speed of play is better because you can step up and knock it in with less worry on pace. I had more confidence on downhill benders because of the flag. The list went on and on...

 

I've had many tough decisions on the course but this one was an absolute no brainer. We will see how the season goes and if things change with thicker pins at different courses, but the thin fiberglass ones are a 'must leave in' for me.

 

I think the only people who think its a bad idea are guys who are stubborn or unwilling to just experiment with a new thing.

[Mikey5e]

I think courses should secure the flag in making it a permanent flag that can't be pulled out. Then, when putting, all's the ball has to do is touch the flag and it is considered holed out. You will still have a hole cut, and a ball considered holed would be either falling into the hole or touching the flagstick, even if it only nicks it and pops out. Those would be considered hold out.

[Shilgy]

 

I have never trusted much of the work that Pelz did. At best it was pseudo-science. I believe he shaped his "tests" to adhere to the pre-conceived bias he already had.

 

Why would he?

Oh maybe to prove himself correct?

[ibradley]

I would guess that in this day and age someone will do the mathematical modeling and answer the question definitively. Personally I trust Pelz’s data.

 

If you putted with the pin in all the time the real benefit would come when you adjusted your putting strategy to hit putts more firmly. You would leave less putts short and have less putts wobble off line as they slowly approached the hole.

 

I believe it would be a noticeable improvement over time.

[ThinkingPlus]

I would guess that in this day and age someone will do the mathematical modeling and answer the question definitively. Personally I trust Pelz’s data.

 

If you putted with the pin in all the time the real benefit would come when you adjusted your putting strategy to hit putts more firmly. You would leave less putts short and have less putts wobble off line as they slowly approached the hole.

 

I believe it would be a noticeable improvement over time.

I trust what Pelz did as well. His tests and data are very appropriate for chips and pitches from off the green. However, his parameter space needs to change for putting. No point in looking beyond 6 feet or so (he already has that data anyway). If he adds measurements that cover the miss distances more common with putting (less than 6') then we will have a complete picture.

[pinhigh27]

I would guess that in this day and age someone will do the mathematical modeling and answer the question definitively. Personally I trust Pelz’s data.

 

If you putted with the pin in all the time the real benefit would come when you adjusted your putting strategy to hit putts more firmly. You would leave less putts short and have less putts wobble off line as they slowly approached the hole.

 

I believe it would be a noticeable improvement over time.

I trust what Pelz did as well. His tests and data are very appropriate for chips and pitches from off the green. However, his parameter space needs to change for putting. No point in looking beyond 6 feet or so (he already has that data anyway). If he adds measurements that cover the miss distances more common with putting (less than 6') then we will have a complete picture.

 

I would say there is no point at looking at 6 feet and in. When are you ever going to hit a 6 footer hard enough that it would hit the hole and keeping going, ie there is much less benefit to having the flag in. I would say as putts get longer the flag helps more and more because there is a greater chance your speed is off.

 

It's basically a given that the flag won't significantly help from 6 feet and in. I'm not sure anyone has said it would help there. It will help on the 40 footer you accidentally ram and it stays in the cup because it hit the flag. That doesn't really ever happen with 6 footers.

[ThinkingPlus]

I would guess that in this day and age someone will do the mathematical modeling and answer the question definitively. Personally I trust Pelz’s data.

 

If you putted with the pin in all the time the real benefit would come when you adjusted your putting strategy to hit putts more firmly. You would leave less putts short and have less putts wobble off line as they slowly approached the hole.

 

I believe it would be a noticeable improvement over time.

I trust what Pelz did as well. His tests and data are very appropriate for chips and pitches from off the green. However, his parameter space needs to change for putting. No point in looking beyond 6 feet or so (he already has that data anyway). If he adds measurements that cover the miss distances more common with putting (less than 6') then we will have a complete picture.

 

I would say there is no point at looking at 6 feet and in. When are you ever going to hit a 6 footer hard enough that it would hit the hole and keeping going, ie there is much less benefit to having the flag in. I would say as putts get longer the flag helps more and more because there is a greater chance your speed is off.

 

It's basically a given that the flag won't significantly help from 6 feet and in. I'm not sure anyone has said it would help there. It will help on the 40 footer you accidentally ram and it stays in the cup because it hit the flag. That doesn't really ever happen with 6 footers.

Sorry. I should have been more explicit. Pelz or someone needs to look at putting speeds at the flag that result in miss distances of 6 feet or less. Pelz study concentrated on speeds at the flagstick that resulted in much longer miss distances.

[jslane57]

More than any of the comments on how the ball will react, the biggest benefit will be how your brain reacts. You've not got an honest target right in the middle of the hole. Human nature is to aim at things. And many many people burn edges all day long, why? Because they aim at the edges of the hole. Our course went to 8 in holes for a week after punching and sanding, and after the honeymoon period of holing everything, many of my friends went back to burning the edges of the 8 in hole...

[MaineMariner]

I don't think enough consideration is being given to losing out on the pleasing sound of the ball dropping into the cup.

[High Plains Driver]

I don't have an opinion one way or another on the rule. I mostly play with a group of retired guys who's handicaps range from 2 to about 12. A couple like the flag tended on longer putts and a couple want it out all the time, so I have been watching the pin go in and out like a whack-a-mole game for a few years now. Biggest difference I'll see is that no one has to stand there and tend it for the guys who want it in.

There are a few areas I would rather than look at rules changes on that this, but c'est la vie.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

I think courses should secure the flag in making it a permanent flag that can't be pulled out. Then, when putting, all's the ball has to do is touch the flag and it is considered holed out. You will still have a hole cut, and a ball considered holed would be either falling into the hole or touching the flagstick, even if it only nicks it and pops out. Those would be considered hold out.

 

If that gets you off the green faster, then do it.

[TheCityGame]

Video of a guy with TWO putts off a ramp, flag in and out.

 

https://www.instagra...ton_share_sheet

 

I don't understand why there's not a youTuber yet who hasn't done a thousand of these. Maybe I'll try to DIY a ramp and make that video myself.

[pearsonified]

Team #LeaveItIn all the way.

 

I like the flag on shorter putts, but I LOVE it on longer putts. For whatever reason, my distance control is greatly improved when I can perceive a z-axis sticking up out of the hole as I go to strike a putt.

[Millbrook]

Video of a guy with TWO putts off a ramp, flag in and out.

 

https://www.instagra...ton_share_sheet

 

I don't understand why there's not a youTuber yet who hasn't done a thousand of these. Maybe I'll try to DIY a ramp and make that video myself.

 

That's a great video thanks. Did you notice how differently the ball reacts when the flag is in compared to when it is out. When the flag is in the ball bounces off the flag downwards. With no flag the ball bounces off the back of the hole upwards.

 

It's a shame they did not do the comparison at a speed where the ball bounced out of the hole without the flag to see if it holed with the flag in.

 

Perhaps you could try this in your video :golfer:

[Shilgy]

Video of a guy with TWO putts off a ramp, flag in and out.

 

https://www.instagra...ton_share_sheet

 

I don't understand why there's not a youTuber yet who hasn't done a thousand of these. Maybe I'll try to DIY a ramp and make that video myself.

 

That's a great video thanks. Did you notice how differently the ball reacts when the flag is in compared to when it is out. When the flag is in the ball bounces off the flag downwards. With no flag the ball bounces off the back of the hole upwards.

 

It's a shame they did not do the comparison at a speed where the ball bounced out of the hole without the flag to see if it holed with the flag in.

 

Perhaps you could try this in your video :golfer:

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

[Mcgeeno]

I liked the slow motion view there. I mean it absorbs energy and you can flat out see the ball going downward on those rolls (And those seemed a little fast it gets better if its slower and it swings more to 'flag in' if its on the edge near lip-out territory'

 

I think there is a reason the PGA is scrambling now to figure out what to do. Pros are probably testing and seeing its worthwhile to leave it in....

[pinhigh27]

I liked the slow motion view there. I mean it absorbs energy and you can flat out see the ball going downward on those rolls (And those seemed a little fast it gets better if its slower and it swings more to 'flag in' if its on the edge near lip-out territory'

 

I think there is a reason the PGA is scrambling now to figure out what to do. Pros are probably testing and seeing its worthwhile to leave it in....

 

yes exactly. if it didnt help it wouldnt be a big deal