I'm officially done with stiff shafts in the irons

[BIG STU]

I've had sort of that argument with various golf instructors, and either they're not seeing my point or I'm not seeing theirs. I've often said, that if I found 75-gram driver shaft to be too stiff, I can play stiff with 65 or 60-gm shafts that are more playable. Then they'd say well they're still rated 'Stiff', and I would say maybe so, but less weight = less wall thickness (not always) = less 'stiff' and they'd go back to they should both be rated the came cpm and then I'd say a 55-gm stiff does not play like a 65-gm stiff which in turn does not play like a 75-gm stiff and we would be no where.

 

In my late 60's and have those days when certain shafts feel heavy. Reason I recently went from 129gram PX flighted 6.0 shaft in my 2 iron to 115gram standard PX 5.5. Changing weight in that iron not flex helps me to maintain distance.

 

It's a funny subject that I seldom bring up amongst friends. They forget we're getting older and losing muscle. I have a been a gym rat most of my adult life and reminded every visit muscle atrophy is a constant fight.

Half of these so called "golf instructors" today do not know their arse from a hole in the ground. Yes I said it--- I do not claim to be the holy grail or know it all but I have been around the block a time or 2. There is a difference in weight versus flex. I can tip a FST 90 at 115 grams as stiff as you want it especially a 370. I am for kicks and giggles wanting to try to stiff tip a DG XP-95 as soon as I get some used pulls. Not for me to hit but to prove a point to someone else not on WRX

[wkuo3]

I am only fifty and my next set of irons will be softer than PX 5.5. Short irons fine but no longer getting the correct flight with 4-5-6. Also hard to work the ball with. I regularly play with a 75 year old who uses Pro Launch Red stiff in his driver and a Rogue 70g stiff in his 3 wood. He cannot hit either but will not consider a softer shaft as he is a "good" player. Good players don't skank their woods 180 into the trees on a regular basis.

 

Yap, the long irons are the first ones to indicate the lost of swing speed.

Fortunately, I'm able to accept the fact that I'll play better golf with the proper shaft for the age.

 

Think weight, not flex.

 

I think you and I may have a similar problem. We're out of shape.

 

I carry my 5 iron right around where you should(?) be. A little over 170. I use DGS300. Nobody would fit me for them if they weren't using a launch monitor. I swing the driver around 93. I use them because LM testing told me they were about 2-3 shorter than light weight shafts but the dispersion was considerably tighter.

 

I might get along better with R300s OR lighter weight shafts and/or I might no be so tired playing 14-18 because I ride instead of walking. Can't be totally sure.

 

But it sounds like you may simply be tiring too quickly, not necessarily that the irons are too heavy - how do they feel early in the round ? And you admit that was playing a very hilly back 9,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Yes, going to a light weight steel for iron shafts is on my list of things to do. Already got some XP90 lined up for this Winter.

It is true because in my younger days I had the X flex driver shafts in the mid 70 gm. Now I'm using S flex mid 60 gm in my driver.

I'm not anywhere near whom I used to be but, I believe many had compared those 10-15 years to my junior for [physical condition.

 

Yeah, the golf course was a hilly local track, had hosted PGA event in the 60's. I was winded but not knocked out on the 18th tee box. 30 years ago, we played 45 holes on that golf course from Sun up to Sun down, walked and carried a full bag on our shoulders ( think single sling instead of the double straps ).

 

I guess I could be a little stronger if I kept up the work out routine but, it's come to a point whether it's worth it to spend that kind of time to try to maintain or keep what I have. It's come to the point of letting it go naturally. I did tell my wife that I want a electric push cart which has the bluetooth sensor to follow me around the golf course like a puppy, when I reached 70th birthday. I enjoy walking the golf course.

[wkuo3]

Speaking of grieving process....

 

Well, it's not quite grieving, but there's certainly longing in there, LOL. I don't like to mention real distances, but I will. I apologise for the boasting inherently involved...

 

I used to hit my 5i, which was 27* at the time, some 205-210 yards. I discovered this by accident, by switching away from my higher spinning Maxfli balls to a ball with less spin on full shots, and got an immediate spike in distance of a full club or more. About ten years ago, I started hitting my Golden Rams, with 30* 5i, similar distances, though that didn't last. I actually started looking at trying Project X 7.0 shafts, because I was hooking my other stuff. When I lost that boost, I quit thinking about the absurd shafts. ;)

 

I credit a lot of this to having been a baseball and softball player, a soccer player, a fair bit of weight lifting, etc. And im not a small dude, though i have a bit of the human t-rex in me; im about 6 ft tall and 245 lbs.

 

I now hit my 28* Golden Ram 4i with Dynamic S about 187 yards.

 

I realize this is very much a First World Problem, I'm not complaining. Well, not too much, anyway, LOL. I've been what i consider mildly long, but I've encountered a *lot* of guys over the years who are longer than me. This blathering I'm doing is really more about no matter where you are on the distance spectrum, you will decline, and we will all eventually wind up in the same boat.

 

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated

 

Edited because my tablet is not behaving

 

You are one of the slugger ! I played with some ex baseball players ( both collegiate level and pro level ) and they could hit the golf balls Looong !

Even some of them could only use 3/4 golf swing, and still hit it a mile.

[NRJyzr]

I played with some ex baseball players ( both collegiate level and pro level ) and they could hit the golf balls Looong !

Even some of them could only use 3/4 golf swing, and still hit it a mile.

 

 

Being in Minnesota, we have hockey players everywhere. And they're almost all stupid long.

 

I went to my course several years ago, the only way I could play was to join three 11-12 year olds from the Junior program there. So I did. They were all hockey players. One of them gets to the second longest par 4 on the front nine, a bit over 400 yds, and belts it right next to the 150 stake.

 

It's just crazy.

[wkuo3]

The Germans have a phrase that is applicable for most everything in life, and this fits right in:

 

We are too soon old, and too late smart.

 

As long as I can beat the ball around, it doesn't matter what shaft I have.

 

When I started as a caddy, barely into my teens, I didn't know or care what shaft I used...I simply enjoyed playing.

 

I'm reverting to my youth - playing for the love of the game, and making shots with what I have in my hand. Isn't that what golf is all about anyway?

 

Ya'll keep your fingers crossed by us - looks like this is gonna be a really tough storm, and I am not bugging out.

 

Probably won't have power for a while after this thing hits, so....keep me in thoughts and prayers, along with anyone else in this monster's path.

 

I remember those days ! fond memory ! Yes, for those in the path of the Hurricane, don;t try to hit a driver in the storm.......get out of town or hunker down for safety.

[Fellaheen51]

One could have two entirely different shafts that CPM out at the same relative stiffness (as measured by a frequency monitor). But could "feel" quite different. Tip stiffness, bend profile characteristics, tip torque, shaft weight all contribute to the perceived "stiffness" of a shaft once installed in a head. A tip soft shaft is going to "feel" less stiff at ball contact than one with a stiffer tip. Even though the numbers may be the same. Not sure wall thickness, as a design feature, has much to do with it. Overall, I would argue that for many senior golfers, moving to lighter weight makes a club easier to swing. But lighter weight does not automatically mean a softer flex is also required. In fact, to light and to soft can lead to dispersion issues. All this becomes more complicated as we grow older, loose some SS, and no longer can muscle a club a heavy and stiff club through 18 holes effectively.

 

A fitting would winnow down the field of candidates. But for some of us, we may not have access to Trackman without paying hefting sums of cash for the privilege. With the expectation that new club(s) are the end result. Furthermore, does a shaft selected after a fitting today feel the same, play the same, 6 months from now? Once we've had some time playing it? Our individual situations are evolving faster now, as older swingers, than they were when we were young and strong. Requiring us to do our collective homework. Perform some measure of evaluation. Or just get lucky.

 

Several posts have touched on the matter of shaft weight. And something I've pondered on. When we feel that shafts have become to stiff to play, relatively speaking. Or is it that the weight of the club (i.e shaft) has become to heavy? Especially with irons, clubs we swing on every hole. That over the course of a round, they become fatiguing. And because of this, we beginning hitting poor shots, coming up short. Because we're tired and the swing has slowed down. Becomes sloppy. And we think that the flex is now to stiff. Regardless of whether is S > R, R > A. Obviously, having an affliction of some form will introduce its own dynamics into the equation.

 

Perhaps the most important shaft selection characteristic is getting the shaft weight (and by extension overall club weight) determined first. One that is comfortable to swing all day. While still providing the feel and dispersion we're after. This is exactly the advice that no less an authority then Howard Jones advocates. Determine the optimum weight first, set the SW to preference of feel, adjust as needed the appropriate lofts and lies (trajectory and dispersion). Then determine the desired shaft flex last. And observe what differences may result. Even more important for the senior golfer. Because this is right out of his posts about Fitting iron shafts for the senior golfer.

 

I go into a LGS to kick the tires, play dumb. The first words out of a floor salesman's mouth is how far do I hit my driver, what's my 150 yard club. Do I know my SS? He's immediately sizing me up for flex. When the more appropriate question should be am I comfortable with playing the weight of my current set. Do they feel to heavy, to light? How's the directional control? Do I have any afflictions that may require a change in shaft material. Not, "You're 67 with a SS of 70 mph. You're senior flex graphite for sure." And if I ask any pointed questions, the response is all ansers can be obtained by a full fitting. That will be $200 for the privilege of a full and temporary optimization. Maybe. I digress.

 

The point of this is everyone's uniquely different. The only path forward (as I see it) is find out for yourself what works. What is comfortable while still providing acceptable results. A setup one can live with for awhile. We don't typically have the same level of changing clubs and shafts as some around WRX'ville. Where the life expectancy of the GOAT set of clubs is measured in months, rather than years. And for some of us, decades.

[BIG STU]

I am only fifty and my next set of irons will be softer than PX 5.5. Short irons fine but no longer getting the correct flight with 4-5-6. Also hard to work the ball with. I regularly play with a 75 year old who uses Pro Launch Red stiff in his driver and a Rogue 70g stiff in his 3 wood. He cannot hit either but will not consider a softer shaft as he is a "good" player. Good players don't skank their woods 180 into the trees on a regular basis.

 

Yap, the long irons are the first ones to indicate the lost of swing speed.

Fortunately, I'm able to accept the fact that I'll play better golf with the proper shaft for the age.

 

Think weight, not flex.

 

I think you and I may have a similar problem. We're out of shape.

 

I carry my 5 iron right around where you should(?) be. A little over 170. I use DGS300. Nobody would fit me for them if they weren't using a launch monitor. I swing the driver around 93. I use them because LM testing told me they were about 2-3 shorter than light weight shafts but the dispersion was considerably tighter.

 

I might get along better with R300s OR lighter weight shafts and/or I might no be so tired playing 14-18 because I ride instead of walking. Can't be totally sure.

 

But it sounds like you may simply be tiring too quickly, not necessarily that the irons are too heavy - how do they feel early in the round ? And you admit that was playing a very hilly back 9,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Yes, going to a light weight steel for iron shafts is on my list of things to do. Already got some XP90 lined up for this Winter.

It is true because in my younger days I had the X flex driver shafts in the mid 70 gm. Now I'm using S flex mid 60 gm in my driver.

I'm not anywhere near whom I used to be but, I believe many had compared those 10-15 years to my junior for [physical condition.

 

Yeah, the golf course was a hilly local track, had hosted PGA event in the 60's. I was winded but not knocked out on the 18th tee box. 30 years ago, we played 45 holes on that golf course from Sun up to Sun down, walked and carried a full bag on our shoulders ( think single sling instead of the double straps ).

 

I guess I could be a little stronger if I kept up the work out routine but, it's come to a point whether it's worth it to spend that kind of time to try to maintain or keep what I have. It's come to the point of letting it go naturally. I did tell my wife that I want a electric push cart which has the bluetooth sensor to follow me around the golf course like a puppy, when I reached 70th birthday. I enjoy walking the golf course.

Yep and even as light as they were in the day those old Hogan Sun Jets and even the Hot Z carry bags were heavier than the carry bags of today and like you said single strap too!! I have ankle problems that only get worse with age. In the fall when I do walk I walk what we call the "Stu 9" which is our 1st through 4th holes go back by cutting across and play 2 3 and 4 again and the cross over and play 8 and 9. I usually carry a no name Sunday bag with 8 clubs max and 4 balls.

[nsxguy]

I am only fifty and my next set of irons will be softer than PX 5.5. Short irons fine but no longer getting the correct flight with 4-5-6. Also hard to work the ball with. I regularly play with a 75 year old who uses Pro Launch Red stiff in his driver and a Rogue 70g stiff in his 3 wood. He cannot hit either but will not consider a softer shaft as he is a "good" player. Good players don't skank their woods 180 into the trees on a regular basis.

 

Yap, the long irons are the first ones to indicate the lost of swing speed.

Fortunately, I'm able to accept the fact that I'll play better golf with the proper shaft for the age.

 

Think weight, not flex.

 

I think you and I may have a similar problem. We're out of shape.

 

I carry my 5 iron right around where you should(?) be. A little over 170. I use DGS300. Nobody would fit me for them if they weren't using a launch monitor. I swing the driver around 93. I use them because LM testing told me they were about 2-3 shorter than light weight shafts but the dispersion was considerably tighter.

 

I might get along better with R300s OR lighter weight shafts and/or I might no be so tired playing 14-18 because I ride instead of walking. Can't be totally sure.

 

But it sounds like you may simply be tiring too quickly, not necessarily that the irons are too heavy - how do they feel early in the round ? And you admit that was playing a very hilly back 9,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Yes, going to a light weight steel for iron shafts is on my list of things to do. Already got some XP90 lined up for this Winter.

It is true because in my younger days I had the X flex driver shafts in the mid 70 gm. Now I'm using S flex mid 60 gm in my driver.

I'm not anywhere near whom I used to be but, I believe many had compared those 10-15 years to my junior for [physical condition.

 

Yeah, the golf course was a hilly local track, had hosted PGA event in the 60's. I was winded but not knocked out on the 18th tee box. 30 years ago, we played 45 holes on that golf course from Sun up to Sun down, walked and carried a full bag on our shoulders ( think single sling instead of the double straps ).

 

I guess I could be a little stronger if I kept up the work out routine but, it's come to a point whether it's worth it to spend that kind of time to try to maintain or keep what I have. It's come to the point of letting it go naturally. I did tell my wife that I want a electric push cart which has the bluetooth sensor to follow me around the golf course like a puppy, when I reached 70th birthday. I enjoy walking the golf course.

test

 

Did it work ? :taunt:

[BIG STU]

One could have two entirely different shafts that CPM out at the same relative stiffness (as measured by a frequency monitor). But could "feel" quite different. Tip stiffness, bend profile characteristics, tip torque, shaft weight all contribute to the perceived "stiffness" of a shaft once installed in a head. A tip soft shaft is going to "feel" less stiff at ball contact than one with a stiffer tip. Even though the numbers may be the same. Not sure wall thickness, as a design feature, has much to do with it. Overall, I would argue that for many senior golfers, moving to lighter weight makes a club easier to swing. But lighter weight does not automatically mean a softer flex is also required. In fact, to light and to soft can lead to dispersion issues. All this becomes more complicated as we grow older, loose some SS, and no longer can muscle a club a heavy and stiff club through 18 holes effectively.

 

A fitting would winnow down the field of candidates. But for some of us, we may not have access to Trackman without paying hefting sums of cash for the privilege. With the expectation that new club(s) are the end result. Furthermore, does a shaft selected after a fitting today feel the same, play the same, 6 months from now? Once we've had some time playing it? Our individual situations are evolving faster now, as older swingers, than they were when we were young and strong. Requiring us to do our collective homework. Perform some measure of evaluation. Or just get lucky.

 

Several posts have touched on the matter of shaft weight. And something I've pondered on. When we feel that shafts have become to stiff to play, relatively speaking. Or is it that the weight of the club (i.e shaft) has become to heavy? Especially with irons, clubs we swing on every hole. That over the course of a round, they become fatiguing. And because of this, we beginning hitting poor shots, coming up short. Because we're tired and the swing has slowed down. Becomes sloppy. And we think that the flex is now to stiff. Regardless of whether is S > R, R > A. Obviously, having an affliction of some form will introduce its own dynamics into the equation.

 

Perhaps the most important shaft selection characteristic is getting the shaft weight (and by extension overall club weight) determined first. One that is comfortable to swing all day. While still providing the feel and dispersion we're after. This is exactly the advice that no less an authority then Howard Jones advocates. Determine the optimum weight first, set the SW to preference of feel, adjust as needed the appropriate lofts and lies (trajectory and dispersion). Then determine the desired shaft flex last. And observe what differences may result. Even more important for the senior golfer. Because this is right out of his posts about Fitting iron shafts for the senior golfer.

 

I go into a LGS to kick the tires, play dumb. The first words out of a floor salesman's mouth is how far do I hit my driver, what's my 150 yard club. Do I know my SS? He's immediately sizing me up for flex. When the more appropriate question should be am I comfortable with playing the weight of my current set. Do they feel to heavy, to light? How's the directional control? Do I have any afflictions that may require a change in shaft material. Not, "You're 67 with a SS of 70 mph. You're senior flex graphite for sure." And if I ask any pointed questions, the response is all ansers can be obtained by a full fitting. That will be $200 for the privilege of a full and temporary optimization. Maybe. I digress.

 

The point of this is everyone's uniquely different. The only path forward (as I see it) is find out for yourself what works. What is comfortable while still providing acceptable results. A setup one can live with for awhile. We don't typically have the same level of changing clubs and shafts as some around WRX'ville. Where the life expectancy of the GOAT set of clubs is measured in months, rather than years. And for some of us, decades.

That first paragraph and last paragraph sums it up perfectly for me--- I can still swing and hit Pro Pel 2s or S-300s for a few shots but that is it. I found that out for sure this year playing my 57/ 59 Diamondbacks with Pro Pel 2s in them same with my Nicklaus Muirfields with S-300s. I can play them but my lower back hurts like crap that night and I am as stiff as a board. I went through a lot of time and effort working on the Franken Macs. Went through several (about a set and a half) getting those set up for me right. For me nothing else hits like them. You or anyone else may can hit them maybe not--- The only set that I own I can hit as good and feels as good is the 54 Precisions even though due to 50s loft do hit about 1 club shorter. The Precisions have the old green band R shafts in them

[wkuo3]

Yep and even as light as they were in the day those old Hogan Sun Jets and even the Hot Z carry bags were heavier than the carry bags of today and like you said single strap too!! I have ankle problems that only get worse with age. In the fall when I do walk I walk what we call the "Stu 9" which is our 1st through 4th holes go back by cutting across and play 2 3 and 4 again and the cross over and play 8 and 9. I usually carry a no name Sunday bag with 8 clubs max and 4 balls.

 

Yes, the old bags ( no pun intended ) are much heavier, leather and/or vinyl or the heavy duty canvas will last a long long time but heavy unlike yhe space age material.

It;s great that you could meander around the golf course to help you walk the "Stu Nine". The way I look at it, eventually I'll not be able to walk the golf course in the future so I should enjoy every round I could walk. It's like a golfer in my group whom used to be a low single digit player said once, "I feel honored to fix my own ball mark on the green these days ".

[wkuo3]

Did it work ? :taunt:

 

Not quite there yet, but close enough to remind her. Even mentioned not the Sun Mountain clip on kind. My choice is the one which will last at least 10 years which will mean I'll be passing 80 by then and time to ride the golf cart if I need to.

[elwhippy]

I remember going to Mizuno for a fitting when the MP57s came out. Awesome day as I went with a lad in the golf trade so got a tour of the site, an extended fitting and even a free lunch. The fitter was excellent and said the biggest issue they had was too many average players insisting on using heavy, stiff shafts in their irons and a poker in the driver despite not generating the required speed. He said it was a macho / ego issue and had a nightmare of a job convincing someone used to S300s in a set of old blades that a lighter, softer shaft, in a cavity back, was going to make them better. The other problem was getting people to realise how far they actually hit it...not just that one pured shot on a hot day, downhill and downwind...ego part two...An interesting point was so many people would argue "but my mates use xxxxxx and I have to have the same or will get mocked".....Said mate is off 2, 210 lbs and has a great swing btw.

Similar experience when Callaway brought out the ERC. Massive demo day at a local range. Most common question asked "so where are the Tour shafts?"....the fitter would then deflate the persons ego by fitting them with a regular....but knowing damn well that they would order stiffer....amazing how many low lofted, stiff shafted drivers on Ebay or in second hand racks.....

[Fellaheen51]

I remember going to Mizuno for a fitting when the MP57s came out. Awesome day as I went with a lad in the golf trade so got a tour of the site, an extended fitting and even a free lunch. The fitter was excellent and said the biggest issue they had was too many average players insisting on using heavy, stiff shafts in their irons and a poker in the driver despite not generating the required speed. He said it was a macho / ego issue and had a nightmare of a job convincing someone used to S300s in a set of old blades that a lighter, softer shaft, in a cavity back, was going to make them better. The other problem was getting people to realise how far they actually hit it...not just that one pured shot on a hot day, downhill and downwind...ego part two...An interesting point was so many people would argue "but my mates use xxxxxx and I have to have the same or will get mocked".....Said mate is off 2, 210 lbs and has a great swing btw.

Similar experience when Callaway brought out the ERC. Massive demo day at a local range. Most common question asked "so where are the Tour shafts?"....the fitter would then deflate the persons ego by fitting them with a regular....but knowing damn well that they would order stiffer....amazing how many low lofted, stiff shafted drivers on Ebay or in second hand racks.....

 

And why I never use the distance function on the GPS gizmo. Think the damn thing needs recalibration. I always hit the ball further on those days when I forget to bring it along. No way is there a 50 yard (45.72 m) difference off the tee with D in hand.

[BIG STU]

I remember going to Mizuno for a fitting when the MP57s came out. Awesome day as I went with a lad in the golf trade so got a tour of the site, an extended fitting and even a free lunch. The fitter was excellent and said the biggest issue they had was too many average players insisting on using heavy, stiff shafts in their irons and a poker in the driver despite not generating the required speed. He said it was a macho / ego issue and had a nightmare of a job convincing someone used to S300s in a set of old blades that a lighter, softer shaft, in a cavity back, was going to make them better. The other problem was getting people to realise how far they actually hit it...not just that one pured shot on a hot day, downhill and downwind...ego part two...An interesting point was so many people would argue "but my mates use xxxxxx and I have to have the same or will get mocked".....Said mate is off 2, 210 lbs and has a great swing btw.

Similar experience when Callaway brought out the ERC. Massive demo day at a local range. Most common question asked "so where are the Tour shafts?"....the fitter would then deflate the persons ego by fitting them with a regular....but knowing damn well that they would order stiffer....amazing how many low lofted, stiff shafted drivers on Ebay or in second hand racks.....

That fitter was dead on it--- I went through that when I was in the golf business-- Even went through that playing when I was in the golf business--- Even my partner Big John could not understand some things. We always had a big group of the "golf shop boys" that played on Sundays. John could not understand why I could outdrive most of them by 20 yards off the tee but on Par 3s hit 1 sometimes 2 irons more than they were. I had to actually sit him down and show him on a loft and lie machine. Most of those guys in that time were hitting TM R-7s RACS or their respective clones. All those clubs had jacked lofts compared to my Mac Blades. I had to further prove it by shafting up 2 RAC clones to my shaft specs and taking them out.Yeah the loft on the RAC clones PW was between my 9 and 8 irons. Now a few years down the road I realized I was getting older and could not hit those stiff heavy 7.0 Brunswick shafts any more. I did not like any CBs period a lot of that came from doing R&D for Championship Golf on the Infiniti line of products for a couple of years. I ended up putting a set of DG-S-300 high launch shafts in the Macs which had a longer tip section and softer too. Hit them great until a year or so ago. A friend of mine on WRX had sent me a pristine set of VIP blades with 7.0 Brunswick shafts in them. I knew I could not hit those shafts. Got intrigued by an old school conversion from back in the day putting Apex Hogan shafts in Mac , Wilson or Spalding clubs. I secured me 2 sets of the big funky cast Hogan Director irons with #2 shafts which I thought were regular shafts. Turns out they are in fact senior shafts. I did borrow my friend's CPM machine and tune them--- I remember one of my close buds on WRX who is a dyed in the wool Hogan man stated "OMG Stuey you have put seniors shafts in those things" I told him I did not give 2 hoots if they were Ladies Apex shafts they worked for me in the fact I picked up distance and they hit like butter. They hit as smooth as any tuned Miura Baby Blade for me. I have tried some other irons in my stash but nothing hits like those things. Hey I do not care if they are senior shafts either. My bottom line play what works for you and your game

 

On the low lofted thing on drivers depending on the head design or in reality the hosel design (bore thru versus non bore through) I can install a lighter soft tipped shaft with lead tape in the right place and make it hit like a 10* stock. Bore throughs aka Titleist not so much. We have a certain contingent of older guys at a neighboring club that still hit lower lofted R-7 Quads and such. Now they have been hitting those drivers for years and will not part from them along with their EYE 2s etc. I have done several shaft conversions in the drivers for them and several EYE 2 shaft conversions. Like one of the guys says who is now around 75 YOA or so says--- These whiz bang kids know nothing but stiff shafts etc but Stuey understands because he IS GETTING SORTA OLD. Yep sorta old at 61.

[scomac2002]

I remember going to a demo day at the local green grass pro-shop and executive golf course several years ago. Nickent was a brand that was all the rage at the time and they had a fitter there, so I went to try one of their drivers, the 4 DX I think it was. I grabbed a 10.5 in R and the fitter watched me struggle to hit the thing. I had only played a year or so at the time and had a pretty rough swing and it was really early in the season. He took the club that I was trying from me and came back with another one, same model just different specs, a 12.5. I didn't play any attention to anything else. My son was with me and he told me that I hit that one by far the best of any I had tried that day. I checked a little closer and discovered that the 12.5 head was off-set and the shaft was 50 gm Lite R rather than R. The fitter had me pegged pretty quick, but I couldn't bring myself to order that combo.

 

Looking back, I've demoed A flex woods from time to time if that was all they had on hand in the loft I was looking for, typically a 7W for example. I would always hit them with a nice little draw so I've probably been a borderline player for flex for a long time now just unwilling until recently to embrace the notion.

[raggal62]

I retired the DG iron shafts 8 years ago due to elbow issues (63 now). Realized to continue playing I would have to make some serious equipment changes. Experimented first with more tip flexible steel w. Sensicore which helped relieve some of the pain. Moved onto graphite with the introduction of Recoils and haven't looked back. It's been a win/win for me. Elbow pain a non-issue and the lighter overall weight a better fit with my reduced SS. Players like myself with a smooth downswing transition generally seem to have a better chance of success with graphite in their irons.

[elwhippy]

Our club champion has gone to Recoil shafts and despite being the champion, and being off plus two, is still ribbed by the X flex tree finders...….he smiles sweetly and takes their cash......

[bulls9999]

Club/shaft manufacturers should eliminate the X-S-R-A ratings and simply use weight as a rating....it would eliminate the ego side of things and allow people to get what is more comfortable to swing/use, imo (I mean, when you look at the specs, most shafts decrease in weight as you go down in flex (although I recently noticed one shaft manufacturer that had the same weight listed for all 3 flex ratings?).. I did that recently with my now favorite Callaway Optiforce 440 (I like smaller heads) that I got off Ebay with a Project X PXv Stiff shaft (62-gm). I knew 'stiff' might be too much, but getting it brand new for $70 (2-3 years old) was fine to me. I hit it well, straight, but it did feel a bit stiff like I wasn't loading it well. You got to love these hosel adaptors.... so I got a Project X PXV Reg (60-gm) (difference in Stiff-Reg-Senior in this shaft is weight) and gained 10 yrds but still didn't feel I was loading it all the time so I opted to go back on Ebay and get a 'Senior' in the same shaft series (52-gm) and wow, gained another 10-15 yards over the Reg, but a little bit whippy (would prefer something in between the Reg and the Senior, notice the bigger drop in weight from Reg to Senior...hmm, something in the 56-58-gm range would be perfect, but I love this PXv shaft feel) and maybe a little bit wider shot distribution pattern, but I've been places on various holes in our course with this driver that I haven't been since I was 40-45 yrs old, lol.

[wkuo3]

Club/shaft manufacturers should eliminate the X-S-R-A ratings and simply use weight as a rating....it would eliminate the ego side of things and allow people to get what is more comfortable to swing/use, imo (I mean, when you look at the specs, most shafts decrease in weight as you go down in flex (although I recently noticed one shaft manufacturer that had the same weight listed for all 3 flex ratings?).. I did that recently with my now favorite Callaway Optiforce 440 (I like smaller heads) that I got off Ebay with a Project X PXv Stiff shaft (62-gm). I knew 'stiff' might be too much, but getting it brand new for $70 (2-3 years old) was fine to me. I hit it well, straight, but it did feel a bit stiff like I wasn't loading it well. You got to love these hosel adaptors.... so I got a Project X PXV Reg (60-gm) (difference in Stiff-Reg-Senior in this shaft is weight) and gained 10 yrds but still didn't feel I was loading it all the time so I opted to go back on Ebay and get a 'Senior' in the same shaft series (52-gm) and wow, gained another 10-15 yards over the Reg, but a little bit whippy (would prefer something in between the Reg and the Senior, notice the bigger drop in weight from Reg to Senior...hmm, something in the 56-58-gm range would be perfect, but I love this PXv shaft feel) and maybe a little bit wider shot distribution pattern, but I've been places on various holes in our course with this driver that I haven't been since I was 40-45 yrs old, lol.

 

Tip the senior flex and extend it from the butt end to get the length back. Start with 1/2" then if the parallel section allows, you could tip additional length if needed.

Or, try another kind of shaft with lower flex point but heavier in weight. in the 60's range .

[mukster]

i have found that the flex is not as important as the weight of the shaft for me in terms of feel. A buddy prefers a heavier R shaft and I prefer a lighter S shaft. Playing stiffer shafts than what I did 10 years ago and I'm 55 +, but a lighter shaft.

[Pepperturbo]

I've had sort of that argument with various golf instructors, and either they're not seeing my point or I'm not seeing theirs. I've often said, that if I found 75-gram driver shaft to be too stiff, I can play stiff with 65 or 60-gm shafts that are more playable. Then they'd say well they're still rated 'Stiff', and I would say maybe so, but less weight = less wall thickness (not always) = less 'stiff' and they'd go back to they should both be rated the came cpm and then I'd say a 55-gm stiff does not play like a 65-gm stiff which in turn does not play like a 75-gm stiff and we would be no where.

 

In my late 60's and have those days when certain shafts feel heavy. Reason I recently went from 129gram PX flighted 6.0 shaft in my 2 iron to 115gram standard PX 5.5. Changing weight in that iron not flex helps me to maintain distance.

 

It's a funny subject that I seldom bring up amongst friends. They forget we're getting older and losing muscle. I have a been a gym rat most of my adult life and reminded every visit muscle atrophy is a constant fight.

 

Weight plays a role for many people. I have a Diamana Blueboard 83 x5ct "S" shaft that I use to play in my driver..no longer. I am OK on the front 9 with it, but on the back, I feel a bit pooped, and I am considered strong for my age. However, I still find shaft weight to my iron game is still a ball-striking factor, as I accelerate my hands just before impact.

 

I have three sets of new "S" shafts all under 110grams in my shaft barrel. I even tried R and R+. Result is always the same, ugly dispersion left and right and in some cases excessive spin with lightweight shafts, including stiff flex. Seems my iron shaft weight cutoff point is 120 grams, high bend, stiff butt and moderately stiff tip work the best for me. However, my two driver shafts are 66 & 67 grams and "TS". Having shared that I won't support eliminating shaft flex. If someone's ego chooses their shaft, its fine with me. Its NOT my responsibility to say what others should or should not buy, regardless of their reason. :beach:

[wkuo3]

i have found that the flex is not as important as the weight of the shaft for me in terms of feel. A buddy prefers a heavier R shaft and I prefer a lighter S shaft. Playing stiffer shafts than what I did 10 years ago and I'm 55 +, but a lighter shaft.

 

You are getting there.

I felt the same when I was your age, a light weight shaft will produce better result.

Wait another decade or two, you'll love the more flexible shaft with some heft, then ...... you will eventually love the flexible and light weight .

[bulls9999]

I couldn't help but notice the bolded section below, quite opposite of what I experienced in my recent fitting this past spring, my 1st fitting at age 64 because "that's what you're supposed to do, right, get fitted!" And no less, with a noted fitter in the area, the only Titleist Advanced fitter in the state, etc....and I was put off the minute I got there because the 2 types of irons I asked to compare and 4 shafts, he didn't have and instead, he had his 'own ideas for me' of what I should use...so previously using ProModus shafts (106.5gm stiff), knowing I should go down a notch, but loved their feel/weight (maybe Reg flex? maybe 95-gm?...after all, I can still play my KBS Tour 90 Stiff decently enough (102 gm)….so what does he push me into...68-gm recoils/Reg-flex/soft-tip? and all the while kept saying "these are giving you the highest MPH with comparable dispersion, yada yada yada". I kept saying, "but they feel so light, I don't know where the head is, can't feel the club"....falling on deaf ears. So he didn't listen to his client....I ended up paying $1,500 for set of irons + 1 hybrid + 1 7-wood.... which I'm about to put on Ebay now, about 6 months later.

 

 

Perhaps the most important shaft selection characteristic is getting the shaft weight (and by extension overall club weight) determined first. One that is comfortable to swing all day. While still providing the feel and dispersion we're after. This is exactly the advice that no less an authority then Howard Jones advocates. Determine the optimum weight first, set the SW to preference of feel, adjust as needed the appropriate lofts and lies (trajectory and dispersion). Then determine the desired shaft flex last. And observe what differences may result. Even more important for the senior golfer. Because this is right out of his posts about Fitting iron shafts for the senior golfer.

 

I go into a LGS to kick the tires, play dumb. The first words out of a floor salesman's mouth is how far do I hit my driver, what's my 150 yard club. Do I know my SS? He's immediately sizing me up for flex. When the more appropriate question should be am I comfortable with playing the weight of my current set. Do they feel to heavy, to light? How's the directional control? Do I have any afflictions that may require a change in shaft material. Not, "You're 67 with a SS of 70 mph. You're senior flex graphite for sure." And if I ask any pointed questions, the response is all ansers can be obtained by a full fitting. That will be $200 for the privilege of a full and temporary optimization. Maybe. I digress.

 

The point of this is everyone's uniquely different. The only path forward (as I see it) is find out for yourself what works. What is comfortable while still providing acceptable results. A setup one can live with for awhile. We don't typically have the same level of changing clubs and shafts as some around WRX'ville. Where the life expectancy of the GOAT set of clubs is measured in months, rather than years. And for some of us, decades.

[nsxguy]

I couldn't help but notice the bolded section below, quite opposite of what I experienced in my recent fitting this past spring, my 1st fitting at age 64 because "that's what you're supposed to do, right, get fitted!" And no less, with a noted fitter in the area, the only Titleist Advanced fitter in the state, etc....and I was put off the minute I got there because the 2 types of irons I asked to compare and 4 shafts, he didn't have and instead, he had his 'own ideas for me' of what I should use...so previously using ProModus shafts (106.5gm stiff), knowing I should go down a notch, but loved their feel/weight (maybe Reg flex? maybe 95-gm?...after all, I can still play my KBS Tour 90 Stiff decently enough (102 gm)….so what does he push me into...68-gm recoils/Reg-flex/soft-tip? and all the while kept saying "these are giving you the highest MPH with comparable dispersion, yada yada yada". I kept saying, "but they feel so light, I don't know where the head is, can't feel the club"....falling on deaf ears. So he didn't listen to his client....I ended up paying $1,500 for set of irons + 1 hybrid + 1 7-wood.... which I'm about to put on Ebay now, about 6 months later.

 

Perhaps the most important shaft selection characteristic is getting the shaft weight (and by extension overall club weight) determined first. One that is comfortable to swing all day. While still providing the feel and dispersion we're after. This is exactly the advice that no less an authority then Howard Jones advocates. Determine the optimum weight first, set the SW to preference of feel, adjust as needed the appropriate lofts and lies (trajectory and dispersion). Then determine the desired shaft flex last. And observe what differences may result. Even more important for the senior golfer. Because this is right out of his posts about Fitting iron shafts for the senior golfer.

 

I go into a LGS to kick the tires, play dumb. The first words out of a floor salesman's mouth is how far do I hit my driver, what's my 150 yard club. Do I know my SS? He's immediately sizing me up for flex. When the more appropriate question should be am I comfortable with playing the weight of my current set. Do they feel to heavy, to light? How's the directional control? Do I have any afflictions that may require a change in shaft material. Not, "You're 67 with a SS of 70 mph. You're senior flex graphite for sure." And if I ask any pointed questions, the response is all ansers can be obtained by a full fitting. That will be $200 for the privilege of a full and temporary optimization. Maybe. I digress.

 

The point of this is everyone's uniquely different. The only path forward (as I see it) is find out for yourself what works. What is comfortable while still providing acceptable results. A setup one can live with for awhile. We don't typically have the same level of changing clubs and shafts as some around WRX'ville. Where the life expectancy of the GOAT set of clubs is measured in months, rather than years. And for some of us, decades.

 

May I ask how many strokes your handicap has gone up in the last 6 months ?

 

I ask because at the 16.7 listed under your avatar I wonder how many lessons you've ever taken. Yeah, I'm a "lessons" guy. Mainly because I've seen first hand what lessons can do for me.

 

My personal opinion is that if you're over say, a 10 or so, fitted club are almost a waste of time unless you are so poorly "fit" to your current clubs. It's mechanics that are holding higher handicappers back.

 

That is NOT to say that fitting shouldn't/wouldn't help but,,,,,,,,,,,

 

For the record I am not saying the fitter did you wrong (or right for that matter) but in this particular instance I would certainly agree with Howard (and you). If the player doesn't like/feel/whatever what he's swinging he's likely not going to hit them very well.

[bulls9999]

Actually, my HC has gone down, or rather my GHIN HC Index is 15.1, and have shot 2 decent rounds in my club's MGA/tournaments (81, 85) that will likely stick with me for a year as part of my low 10 of last 20 rounds.

 

HC Index with 'fitted clubs' (Rogue Pro w/Recoil graphites 760 ES F3/ 68-gm/Reg):

• 2/18 - 21.5
  
• 3/1/18 - 21.5
  
• 3/15/18 - 21.5
  

Switched back to my Adam CB2 forged w/KBS 90Tour-stiff (102-gm)

• 4/1/18 - 17.6
  
• 4/15/18 - 17.6
  
• 5/1/18 - 17.4
  
• 5/15/18 - 16.9
  
• 6/1/18 - 16.9
  
• 6/15/18 - 17.1
  
• 7/1/18 - 17.1
  

Switched to Titleist 716 w/ T.T. XP90-Reg (95-gm)

• 7/15/18 - 15.6
  
• 8/1/18 - 15.1
  
• 8/15/18 - 15.1
  
• 9/1/18 - 15.1
  

08/2018 90 H 07/2018 81* H 07/2018 91 H 07/2018 88 H 07/2018 86* H 07/2018 93 H 07/2018 89 T 07/2018 81* T 06/2018 82* H 06/2018 89 H 06/2018 86* H 06/2018 90 H 06/2018 89 H 06/2018 98 H 06/2018 87* H 05/2018 84* H 05/2018 87* H 04/2018 91 H 04/2018 87* H 03/2018 87* H

 

 

 

I couldn't help but notice the bolded section below, quite opposite of what I experienced in my recent fitting this past spring, my 1st fitting at age 64 because "that's what you're supposed to do, right, get fitted!" And no less, with a noted fitter in the area, the only Titleist Advanced fitter in the state, etc....and I was put off the minute I got there because the 2 types of irons I asked to compare and 4 shafts, he didn't have and instead, he had his 'own ideas for me' of what I should use...so previously using ProModus shafts (106.5gm stiff), knowing I should go down a notch, but loved their feel/weight (maybe Reg flex? maybe 95-gm?...after all, I can still play my KBS Tour 90 Stiff decently enough (102 gm)….so what does he push me into...68-gm recoils/Reg-flex/soft-tip? and all the while kept saying "these are giving you the highest MPH with comparable dispersion, yada yada yada". I kept saying, "but they feel so light, I don't know where the head is, can't feel the club"....falling on deaf ears. So he didn't listen to his client....I ended up paying $1,500 for set of irons + 1 hybrid + 1 7-wood.... which I'm about to put on Ebay now, about 6 months later.

 

Perhaps the most important shaft selection characteristic is getting the shaft weight (and by extension overall club weight) determined first. One that is comfortable to swing all day. While still providing the feel and dispersion we're after. This is exactly the advice that no less an authority then Howard Jones advocates. Determine the optimum weight first, set the SW to preference of feel, adjust as needed the appropriate lofts and lies (trajectory and dispersion). Then determine the desired shaft flex last. And observe what differences may result. Even more important for the senior golfer. Because this is right out of his posts about Fitting iron shafts for the senior golfer.

 

I go into a LGS to kick the tires, play dumb. The first words out of a floor salesman's mouth is how far do I hit my driver, what's my 150 yard club. Do I know my SS? He's immediately sizing me up for flex. When the more appropriate question should be am I comfortable with playing the weight of my current set. Do they feel to heavy, to light? How's the directional control? Do I have any afflictions that may require a change in shaft material. Not, "You're 67 with a SS of 70 mph. You're senior flex graphite for sure." And if I ask any pointed questions, the response is all ansers can be obtained by a full fitting. That will be $200 for the privilege of a full and temporary optimization. Maybe. I digress.

 

The point of this is everyone's uniquely different. The only path forward (as I see it) is find out for yourself what works. What is comfortable while still providing acceptable results. A setup one can live with for awhile. We don't typically have the same level of changing clubs and shafts as some around WRX'ville. Where the life expectancy of the GOAT set of clubs is measured in months, rather than years. And for some of us, decades.

 

May I ask how many strokes your handicap has gone up in the last 6 months ?

 

I ask because at the 16.7 listed under your avatar I wonder how many lessons you've ever taken. Yeah, I'm a "lessons" guy. Mainly because I've seen first hand what lessons can do for me.

 

My personal opinion is that if you're over say, a 10 or so, fitted club are almost a waste of time unless you are so poorly "fit" to your current clubs. It's mechanics that are holding higher handicappers back.

 

That is NOT to say that fitting shouldn't/wouldn't help but,,,,,,,,,,,

 

For the record I am not saying the fitter did you wrong (or right for that matter) but in this particular instance I would certainly agree with Howard (and you). If the player doesn't like/feel/whatever what he's swinging he's likely not going to hit them very well.

[nsxguy]

Actually, my HC has gone down, or rather my GHIN HC Index is 15.1, and have shot 2 decent rounds in my club's MGA/tournaments (81, 85) that will likely stick with me for a year as part of my low 10 of last 20 rounds.

 

HC Index with 'fitted clubs' (Rogue Pro w/Recoil graphites 760 ES F3/ 68-gm/Reg):

• 2/18 - 21.5
  
• 3/1/18 - 21.5
  
• 3/15/18 - 21.5
  

Switched back to my Adam CB2 forged w/KBS 90Tour-stiff (102-gm)

• 4/1/18 - 17.6
  
• 4/15/18 - 17.6
  
• 5/1/18 - 17.4
  
• 5/15/18 - 16.9
  
• 6/1/18 - 16.9
  
• 6/15/18 - 17.1
  
• 7/1/18 - 17.1
  

Switched to Titleist 716 w/ T.T. XP90-Reg (95-gm)

• 7/15/18 - 15.6
  
• 8/1/18 - 15.1
  
• 8/15/18 - 15.1
  
• 9/1/18 - 15.1
  

08/2018 90 H 07/2018 81* H 07/2018 91 H 07/2018 88 H 07/2018 86* H 07/2018 93 H 07/2018 89 T 07/2018 81* T 06/2018 82* H 06/2018 89 H 06/2018 86* H 06/2018 90 H 06/2018 89 H 06/2018 98 H 06/2018 87* H 05/2018 84* H 05/2018 87* H 04/2018 91 H 04/2018 87* H 03/2018 87* H

 

 

 

OK, interesting. Let me ask you then.

 

You're probably not a beginner since you signed up here 9 years ago. Since it's not all that unusual for a beginner to improve this rapidly, to what do you attribute the 6 stroke drop in ~ 7 months ? You played to 21 with a fitted set, then went back to your old irons and went down (not all that surprised).

 

You've even dropped a couple of shots with the clubs you're complaining about and now looking to sell. So it sounds like the fitting did help, yes ?

 

But you don't "like" them so there's that. Didn't you "not like them" when you decided to buy them ? If so, why'd you buy them ? If I don't like something, recommended or not, I'm not buying it/them.

 

You've played at least 20 rounds already this year. What makes you think you won't play that many in the next 12 months ?

 

Those things aside though, have you ever taken lessons ? Do you think you could use some now (whether you have before or not) ?

[bulls9999]

OK, interesting. Let me ask you then.

 

You're probably not a beginner since you signed up here 9 years ago. Since it's not all that unusual for a beginner to improve this rapidly, to what do you attribute the 6 stroke drop in ~ 7 months ? You played to 21 with a fitted set, then went back to your old irons and went down (not all that surprised).

• No, been playing since age ~28, now 64
  
• Partly was getting used to new course that we changed to.
  
• Again, I was using 100+ gm steel and the fitted set was 68-gm/soft tip graphite, I kept snap hooking all my shots; did not do that with the steel. Everyone I have explained this to with knowledge of iron/shaft specs would even ask me before I got to tell them about the snap hooking that "and did you start snap hooking a lot of shots?" …. yes.
  
• I take about 2 lessons/year
  
• Not sure I understand why you think that I think I won't play 20 rounds in the next 6 months.... I expect to play a lot more than that.
  
• I bought them because I gave into the fitter, he wore me down, I went with what he suggested was best; but in retrospect, he never listened to me when I kept insisting that the shaft/club was too light, THAT I LIKE A HEAVIER FEEL. HE KEPT MAKING SARCASTIC COMMENTS ABOUT ALL HIS CLIENTS WHO SAY THE SAME THING (or those who get what they want and complain that they can't play them).
  
• As far as 'dropping a couple of shots with the irons i'm even complaining about".... yes, and I did that by fighting off the snap hooks, which eventually drove me craze....I did not want to play shots like Bubba Watson.
  

You've even dropped a couple of shots with the clubs you're complaining about and now looking to sell. So it sounds like the fitting did help, yes ?

 

But you don't "like" them so there's that. Didn't you "not like them" when you decided to buy them ? If so, why'd you buy them ? If I don't like something, recommended or not, I'm not buying it/them.

 

You've played at least 20 rounds already this year. What makes you think you won't play that many in the next 12 months ?

 

Those things aside though, have you ever taken lessons ? Do you think you could use some now (whether you have before or not) ?

[nsxguy]

Actually, my HC has gone down, or rather my GHIN HC Index is 15.1, and have shot 2 decent rounds in my club's MGA/tournaments (81, 85) that will likely stick with me for a year as part of my low 10 of last 20 rounds.

 

OK, interesting. Let me ask you then.

 

You're probably not a beginner since you signed up here 9 years ago. Since it's not all that unusual for a beginner to improve this rapidly, to what do you attribute the 6 stroke drop in ~ 7 months ? You played to 21 with a fitted set, then went back to your old irons and went down (not all that surprised).

• No, been playing since age ~28, now 64
  
• Partly was getting used to new course that we changed to.
  
• Again, I was using 100+ gm steel and the fitted set was 68-gm/soft tip graphite, I kept snap hooking all my shots; did not do that with the steel. Everyone I have explained this to with knowledge of iron/shaft specs would even ask me before I got to tell them about the snap hooking that "and did you start snap hooking a lot of shots?" …. yes.
  
• I take about 2 lessons/year
  
• Not sure I understand why you think that I think I won't play 20 rounds in the next 6 months.... I expect to play a lot more than that.
  
• I bought them because I gave into the fitter, he wore me down, I went with what he suggested was best; but in retrospect, he never listened to me when I kept insisting that the shaft/club was too light, THAT I LIKE A HEAVIER FEEL. HE KEPT MAKING SARCASTIC COMMENTS ABOUT ALL HIS CLIENTS WHO SAY THE SAME THING (or those who get what they want and complain that they can't play them).
  
• As far as 'dropping a couple of shots with the irons i'm even complaining about".... yes, and I did that by fighting off the snap hooks, which eventually drove me craze....I did not want to play shots like Bubba Watson.
  

You've even dropped a couple of shots with the clubs you're complaining about and now looking to sell. So it sounds like the fitting did help, yes ?

 

But you don't "like" them so there's that. Didn't you "not like them" when you decided to buy them ? If so, why'd you buy them ? If I don't like something, recommended or not, I'm not buying it/them.

 

You've played at least 20 rounds already this year. What makes you think you won't play that many in the next 12 months ?

 

Those things aside though, have you ever taken lessons ? Do you think you could use some now (whether you have before or not) ?

 

Thanks for the reply. I guess we can be "bullied" sometimes, maybe even without realizing it at the time. And I'm sure I'd have a tough time going against a recommendation from somebody who should know. Sorry that happened.

 

As for your bullet point question, the above (1st quote) is what made me think you didn't play that often.

[birly-shirly]

On flex or weight, I'm really not sure that anyone can tell you what to play. I have a swing speed radar, and my basic belief is that if there's no significant difference in clubhead speed averaged over 10 or more shots, then you are really in the territory of choosing a shaft based on what you like the feel of.

 

And then, there's the argument that the performance differences between shafts really only show up in a good swing with a late release. For lots of us with somewhat less than Garcia-esque lag, the design differences in shafts (other than overall weight) are pretty much noise.

 

Lastly, and I'm sure I'm guilty of this myself, I think a lot of golfers react more to what's on the label than how they actually feel the shaft behave.

[bulls9999]

OK, I guess this is the post where I come back and sort of apologize to the fitter I complained about and how I made my graphite shafted clubs work for me. I haven't played with my fitted graphites (Rogue Pro forged/Recoil 760 ES F3 shafts) for almost 2 months. For the last 2 months I switched to using my Adams CB2/KBS 90Tour Stiff and then my recent Ebay purchase f Titleist 716/XP-90 Reg. I started doing something with these where I still wasn't getting the ball 'airborne' but I was using a strong grip with face squared, so I started using a weak grip with the face opened a bit and was getting higher elevations on my shots. This really helped especially going over trees, instead of shooting the ball right into the middle of a tree, lol. I have a variety of spots on my course where I may not clear the corner of a dogleg and have to go over the trees to advance the ball sufficiently to be competitive on the hole. OK, so I got the 2nd of the 2 steel shaft sets, lighter weight steel and I was also not getting the ball high enough. So everytime I went to the range before a round, I would purposely hit shots with weak grip that flew higher (I just didn't like the possibility of shanking shots which I did that crossed the fence of our driving range and into some yards across the street....at which I would wince ('please, no damage!'). I then carried that onto the course....and it was working. So after the recent complaint about my graphite fitting and didn't like the clubs, I said let me give them another look before I decide to ditch them....so this weekend, played 18 holes Saturday and again on Sunday, having not touched those clubs in 2 months. I shot a decent 88 on Saturday given what could have been a lower score knowingly lipped out about 4-5 different putts for either par or birdie. I was successful in limiting the 'snap hook' with the weak grip (not sure if it's the same, but I'm turning the club a bit open, regripping, and calling that a 'weak grip'), long shots were just having a touch of draw, not the dramatic curve....aim a 5-iron to the left side of the green and hit to the front middle and work it's way to back right (I'm a lefty). Sunday was awesome!!!.... went bogie-par-bogie-then 6 consec pars for a 37 (+3) and finished with a 37/43 = 80, beat my low round of the year by 1 shot. OK, so I'm going to play with these some more, guess I might be keeping them. You can give me some gruff if you want, can't compete what my wife already gave me since she likes the fitter and gave me crap for talking so bad about him. But I had to figure it out myself, which I wish he could have said I might be hitting hooks and here's what you can do to avoid that. And I noticed my GHIN index just dropped to 14.3 on the latest revision before I even entered the 80 :swoon: