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Blades and the search for "game improvement"

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  • GautamaGautama  819Members Posts: 819
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #32
    Nessism wrote:

    Gautama wrote:


    If you don't have a fairly consistent bad strike pattern and are truly all over the face, then what?




    The "what" is that with a true GI club, something with a high MOI, not some smallish players cavity that so many of the GolfWRX'ers denote "GI", the shot will end up closer to the target when mishit. That's the whole point of GI clubs, not distance though stronger lofts.




    You misunderstood my post. If I'm hitting the same shot off the toe all day, the GI may go farther, but not necessarily closer to the target. Why would it be, unless I didn't know my distances. I'm mis-hitting it, but it's still going the distance it's going, and arguably more consistently with the smaller club in my experience. Now one can argue for a deviation about the mean benefit, ie that there's less variability from good to bad for someone all over the face and therefore a more predictable miss, but I think that's overstated too as far as actual scoring for reasons I already gave.
    Posted:
    "I see the distorted swings, the hurried rounds, and now the electric carts tae ruin the course and rob us of our exercise...we have gone off the mark, gone after the wrong things, forgotten what it's all about"

    -Dr. Julian Sands, Golf in the Kingdom
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  • North ButteNorth Butte  11741Members Posts: 11,741
    Joined:  #33


    Do "game improvement" clubs actually improve your game?



    I ask this as I feel that there are 2 ways to approach golf and indeed any other sporting or competitive activity.



    1. Aiming to get the lowest score possible

    2. Aiming to be as good as possible



    The 2 are obviously not mutually exclusive. For me the second option is the goal and the first option is simply a way of measuring the second.



    If we are not playing in a competition then where does the need for game improvement clubs come in? If your average score comes down by 4 strokes by playing cavity backed GI clubs then what have you achieved?



    This is the crux of my point - are we not all better off playing unforgiving blades and small headed drivers that do not pander to our inconsistencies?



    If we make a bad swing and the club compensates for this allowing us to hit the green then we lose the incentive - the requirement - to perfect that swing.



    This is analogous to upgrading equipment in many other forms of sport. For me the challenge and joy of golf and all other sports I play is mastering the technique and the less forgiving the equipment the more I am driven to do so and the more joy there is in nailing that perfect shot.




    Sounds like you really, really want to play blades. Go for it, you have to do whatever brings you joy. Golf is a game, if playing blades is more fun than scoring a couple strokes lower only you can say.
    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm oot. Canadian in California 9417Members Posts: 9,417
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #34


    Sounds like you really, really want to play blades. Go for it, you have to do whatever brings you joy. Golf is a game, if playing blades is more fun than scoring a couple strokes lower only you can say.


    Exactly! Well said.

    This should be the auto-reply for any of these what should I play hand-wringing threads. Save all the false justifications and just go play golf, with whatever you want. And if you are having fun great. If not, just keep changing stuff around until you are. Pretty simple.
    Posted:
  • Hit em goodHit em good Hit em good  2098Members Posts: 2,098
    Joined:  #35
    If a golfer practices regularly, I do think better player player irons will help fine tune the swing, to an extent. There is a point of diminishing returns. This has been the case for me. I practice about once per week, and I hit my player CB's better than GI clubs. However, blade irons are too much for me and I get worse results.
    Posted:
    Driver: 07 Burner TP
    4 wood: Ping G25
    7 wood: Ping G25
    23° hybrd:  Ping G25
    5i - pw: Mizuno MP64
    Wedges 50° / 54° / 58°: Cleveland Rotex 2.0 (2 dot , 3 dot , 2 dot)
    Putter: Ping Redwood Anser
    Ball: Titleist Pro v1x / Pro v1
    Bag: Titlest Stand Bag / 4 way top
  • Kingcat990Kingcat990 European Tailored Golf Socks  3996Members Posts: 3,996
    Joined:  #36
    Use blades to generate HC, use GI's in tournaments to pad that sandbagging HC image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
    Wyoming Cowboys
  • rrowerrowe Launch Fuel Expert  122Members Posts: 122
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #37
    Gautama wrote:


    And there is absolutely no question, zero, that it took less skill to ski the same terrain,and to my eye few skiers developed the same level of skills that they would have in another era. I'm a better skier for having learned in the gear I did...100%.




    You are WAY off here. If you think skiers in the 80s or earlier developed more skill than modern skiers, you are out of your mind. Those straight stiff sticks you are so fond of would have you getting killed skiing the terrain being skied today. Were there big mountain skiers before? Yeah. Were they straight lining giant Alaskan faces? **** no. Equipment progressed and the sport and athletes did as well.



    Have fun noodling down those groomers tho. Are you still skiing in leather boots?



    As I understand it, blades have performance characteristics which are still sought after. No one is buying Olin Mark V's (or making anything similar) because they do not provide an increase in performance over modern ski designs.
    Posted:
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  • BiggErnBiggErn  2703Members Posts: 2,703
    Joined:  #38
    Stanks wrote:
    Use blades to get better, period. GI irons will only get you so far and then you might start relying on the assistance granted and not forced to become better. Punish yourself and learn from your mistakes will push you to become more advanced than you once were.



    No pro ever got somewhere by being coddled and "groomed" for success. If it is hard to do and it's punishing then, you're learning.






    Simply absurd “reasoning”
    Posted:
  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey  462Members Posts: 462
    Joined:  #39
    rrowe wrote:




    You are WAY off here. If you think skiers in the 80s or earlier developed more skill than modern skiers, you are out of your mind. Those straight stiff sticks you are so fond of would have you getting killed skiing the terrain being skied today. Were there big mountain skiers before? Yeah. Were they straight lining giant Alaskan faces? **** no. Equipment progressed and the sport and athletes did as well.



    Have fun noodling down those groomers tho. Are you still skiing in leather boots?




    I'm actually gonna agree with most of what you said here about skis and skiers as it pertains to the top level of the sport. What the big mountain skiers do today is absolutely mind boggling (and frankly, pretty nuts.) What Mikaela Shiffrin and Ted Ligety do in the gates is equally impressive. But when I think about mainstream, average resort skiers, that's where I think the skill has not really improved, but their skiing has, because of equipment. Those skiers had no chance of true carving back in the day, but a lot of them can make a reasonable go of it with today's gear. Skiing powder was especially hopeless for intermediate skiers when skinny skis were the norm.New equipment totally changed that game, but didn't make that class of skiers any more skilled. That said, I don't think the median skill level of skiers has become worse or better in any real way, even though the top end of the sport has pushed the boundaries quite far. Where I'll agree with the OP is that being a good skier on the old gear made transitioning to and capitalizing on the new stuff silly easy.
    Posted:
  • Chuck905Chuck905  1382Members Posts: 1,382
    Joined:  #40
    Honestly, blades are not hard to hit so this forgiveness argument is muted to me personally.



    I play blades for the looks and utmost feel.
    Posted:
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  • duffer987duffer987 I'm oot. Canadian in California 9417Members Posts: 9,417
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #41
    BiggErn wrote:

    Stanks wrote:
    Use blades to get better, period. GI irons will only get you so far and then you might start relying on the assistance granted and not forced to become better. Punish yourself and learn from your mistakes will push you to become more advanced than you once were.



    No pro ever got somewhere by being coddled and "groomed" for success. If it is hard to do and it's punishing then, you're learning.






    Simply absurd “reasoning”


    I'm assuming he's taking the ****, because no reasonable person could possibly hold those views, regardless of how bias their POV is.

    Imagine if young Jordan Spieth had played FG-17s and an old Bubble Burner driver, he might have made something of himself.
    Posted:
  • mahoniemahonie England 2648Members Posts: 2,648
    Joined:  #42
    NRJyzr wrote:

    Nessism wrote:


    Where the OP's logic goes out the window is in assuming that the feedback and poor results of a bad shot with an unforgiving club will somehow lead the player to improve his swing. This is analogous to finding dog pee on the floor and then punishing your dog after the fact, only the dog is incapable of connecting the two events. I'm a case in point: I strike most shots out toward the toe and can't seem to fix it. Would playing blades force me to improve? No. I played blades for more than a decade and will never go back other than maybe for a retro bag.




    No offense, but i think your analogy is a poor one.



    That said, I tend to agree with you. It's not something that can *make* you improve. It can help, but you still need the ability to make the adjustments necessary. Not everyone has that.



    Where I differ with the common line of thought is that there's a significant difference between blades and what folks call the "players CB." My experience has been that there's little difference, if any. When you get to something like the G series for Ping, it may be different, but I've found I can't play something like that; the last time I hit a G20 8iron, I ballooned it in virtually no wind. LOL I played the A10 for a time, found them to give me nothing extra. Same with the TM TP MC. And so on.



    Ultimately, golf is not one size fits all. There's nothing that works for everyone. And, I feel any player won't *really* know if something works until they make an honest effort.



    I also think launch conditions are a bigger player in this particular choice, maybe an overlooked aspect. I had to put away a set of Mizuno blades due to excessive spin, and switched to Eye2+ for that same reason (better spin). Cant believe I'm alone in that arena.




    I find the whole issue of ‘feedback’ and feel in golf to be fascinating and particularly how you can combine feel with correct technique. Faldo was always criticised for being overly technical, but he actually was very much a feel player. He honed his technique on the practice range and probably practised more than any other of his peers but when he got to the course, it was all about clearing his mind and limiting swing thoughts to one only and playing sub-consciously.



    This article explains how this method is taught and the fundamental focus is on knowing where the centre of the club is:



    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/what-is-he-thinking/201305/new-paradigm-golf-instruction







    Posted:
    Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
    MD Golf Superstrong 3-wood UST Proforce 65 Stiff
    Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
    Mizuno MP4 4-PW DG S300
    Wilson Staff PMP wedges 50/54/58 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Radius Classic 8
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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and Southwest 16066Members Posts: 16,066
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #43
    Legitimate question. The answer is clubhead design is NOT a critical factor in being a better than the average golfer.



    1. Aiming to get the lowest score possible = lots of practice

    2. Aiming to be as good as possible = lots of practice



    Game improvement = practice like those intending on being professional.



    When I took up the game at 40, I was banging on average 1000-1500 balls per week; I organized my practice sessions each with purpose and only played executive courses for some time before venturing out on a regulation course. Though I switched to blades after playing six months, they were "NOT" a crucial factor in my improvement, just my preference in tools as they fit my golf game intentions. image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />



    Also, I am self-taught. For that reason, back then a relative on tour advised me if ball-striking was important to me switch to blades. His words, "blades will help me find the proper swing plane, and I believe that was true then... not so much today, as blade design has changed.



    PS; being a clinically educated professional that is a low-single-digit golfer, I don't buy most theories bantered about by Psychologists. Typically, they have the same application limitation that golf instructors have, can't teach through their bias, and as instructors of golf, don't know their limitations.
    Posted:
    • Titleist TS2 9.5, PX HZRDUS Red 65 6.0
    • Titleist TS2 16.5* D.Blueboard 83 x5ct,"S"
    • Titleist T-MB 17* 2 iron, PX
    • Titleist 620 CB/MB 3i-PW, PX
    • SM6 F-52*, MMT PX
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • ProV1x










  • duffer987duffer987 I'm oot. Canadian in California 9417Members Posts: 9,417
    Joined:  #44
    ^Interesting. So this nonsense happens on skiing forums too.

    Every day's a school day.
    Posted:
  • GautamaGautama  819Members Posts: 819
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #45
    duffer987 wrote:


    ^Interesting. So this nonsense happens on skiing forums too.

    Every day's a school day.




    LOL, indeed, guilty as charged, I deleted my rant. Leather boots indeed...good grief image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

    Posted:
    "I see the distorted swings, the hurried rounds, and now the electric carts tae ruin the course and rob us of our exercise...we have gone off the mark, gone after the wrong things, forgotten what it's all about"

    -Dr. Julian Sands, Golf in the Kingdom
  • buzlinbuzlin NorCal 1005Members Posts: 1,005
    Joined:  #46
    OP, I'm assuming by now you've figured out why these threads get locked. It's become quite polarizing and political.



    I've played my best with MBs and subscribe to your philosophy about the lack of compensation and increased feedback being beneficial to improving. I play both MBs and CBs depending on how I feel about my game and how much time I have to practice.



    What you'll continue to see is people making personal statements about what works for them, and then people jump all over them with their own personal experience, or better yet, assume because MBs work for them that they must be part of the small but passionate (and somewhat misinformed) blade crazies.



    I again like it to politics, if you disagree then it must mean you're on one extreme or another. Many don't want to hear or accept anyone's personal thoughts if they differ from their own.
    Posted:
    G400 LST, Tour 75 stiff
    915F 15, Rogue Black stiff
    913H, 19, 21, Tour Green stiff
    Miura CB57 4/5-pw KBS Tour stiff (or Tourstage 909 4/5-pw)
    Vokey, SM6, 50F, 54S, 58M
    Never Compromise Portofino
  • BiggErnBiggErn  2703Members Posts: 2,703
    Joined:  #47
    buzlin wrote:
    OP, I'm assuming by now you've figured out why these threads get locked. It's become quite polarizing and political.



    I've played my best with MBs and subscribe to your philosophy about the lack of compensation and increased feedback being beneficial to improving. I play both MBs and CBs depending on how I feel about my game and how much time I have to practice.



    What you'll continue to see is people making personal statements about what works for them, and then people jump all over them with their own personal experience, or better yet, assume because MBs work for them that they must be part of the small but passionate (and somewhat misinformed) blade crazies.



    I again like it to politics, if you disagree then it must mean you're on one extreme or another. Many don't want to hear or accept anyone's personal thoughts if they differ from their own.






    I liken it to reality and physics. The supposed greater feedback doesn’t mean you’ll get better. Living with more penal shots does not guarantee you’ll get better. Of course the feedback thing is a farce anyway as all clubs provide feedback. It’s about playing golf to shoot the lowest score possible not about playing the hardest to hit clubs for the challenge with the fallacy they will make you better.
    Posted:
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  • North ButteNorth Butte  11741Members Posts: 11,741
    Joined:  #48
    Stanks wrote:


    Use blades to get better, period. GI irons will only get you so far and then you might start relying on the assistance granted and not forced to become better. Punish yourself and learn from your mistakes will push you to become more advanced than you once were.



    No pro ever got somewhere by being coddled and "groomed" for success. If it is hard to do and it's punishing then, you're learning.




    I prefer to pay someone to follow me around the course and swat me up aside the head with a stick every time I make a bad swing. How can I not get great with all that feedback?
    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • buzlinbuzlin NorCal 1005Members Posts: 1,005
    Joined:  #49
    BiggErn wrote:

    buzlin wrote:
    OP, I'm assuming by now you've figured out why these threads get locked. It's become quite polarizing and political.



    I've played my best with MBs and subscribe to your philosophy about the lack of compensation and increased feedback being beneficial to improving. I play both MBs and CBs depending on how I feel about my game and how much time I have to practice.



    What you'll continue to see is people making personal statements about what works for them, and then people jump all over them with their own personal experience, or better yet, assume because MBs work for them that they must be part of the small but passionate (and somewhat misinformed) blade crazies.



    I again like it to politics, if you disagree then it must mean you're on one extreme or another. Many don't want to hear or accept anyone's personal thoughts if they differ from their own.






    I liken it to reality and physics. The supposed greater feedback doesn’t mean you’ll get better. Living with more penal shots does not guarantee you’ll get better. Of course the feedback thing is a farce anyway as all clubs provide feedback. It’s about playing golf to shoot the lowest score possible not about playing the hardest to hit clubs for the challenge with the fallacy they will make you better.


    Bigg, love it. Thanks for playing along.
    Posted:
    G400 LST, Tour 75 stiff
    915F 15, Rogue Black stiff
    913H, 19, 21, Tour Green stiff
    Miura CB57 4/5-pw KBS Tour stiff (or Tourstage 909 4/5-pw)
    Vokey, SM6, 50F, 54S, 58M
    Never Compromise Portofino
  • farmerfarmer  8254Members Posts: 8,254
    Joined:  #50
    Blades have changed a great deal since the '60's, when I started to play. Even the bladiest blades are easier to play than they were back in the day. That said, why is easier a bad thing? If golf is to grow and thrive, having equipment that makes a basic level of competence easier to attain seems a no brainer. A modern GI iron makes it easier to get a ball in the air, bad mishits tend not to be as catastrophic as they were with my old Hagen blades. This is a golf nerd site, and is the only place I've heard a blade-gi debate.
    Posted:
  • ItsjustagameItsjustagame  1286Members Posts: 1,286
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #51
    So it seems many people who play blades and many people who don't play blades feel iron selection has no significant impact on scoring and it's all about personal preference?

    Seems pretty simple and should about wrap up this thread.
    Posted:
    GBB Epic 10.5 Project X HZRDUS T800 55
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  • BiggErnBiggErn  2703Members Posts: 2,703
    Joined:  #52
    buzlin wrote:
    BiggErn wrote:

    buzlin wrote:
    OP, I'm assuming by now you've figured out why these threads get locked. It's become quite polarizing and political.



    I've played my best with MBs and subscribe to your philosophy about the lack of compensation and increased feedback being beneficial to improving. I play both MBs and CBs depending on how I feel about my game and how much time I have to practice.



    What you'll continue to see is people making personal statements about what works for them, and then people jump all over them with their own personal experience, or better yet, assume because MBs work for them that they must be part of the small but passionate (and somewhat misinformed) blade crazies.



    I again like it to politics, if you disagree then it must mean you're on one extreme or another. Many don't want to hear or accept anyone's personal thoughts if they differ from their own.






    I liken it to reality and physics. The supposed greater feedback doesn’t mean you’ll get better. Living with more penal shots does not guarantee you’ll get better. Of course the feedback thing is a farce anyway as all clubs provide feedback. It’s about playing golf to shoot the lowest score possible not about playing the hardest to hit clubs for the challenge with the fallacy they will make you better.


    Bigg, love it. Thanks for playing along.




    You’re welcome. Good times
    Posted:
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  • North ButteNorth Butte  11741Members Posts: 11,741
    Joined:  #53


    So it seems many people who play blades and many people who don't play blades feel iron selection has no significant impact on scoring and it's all about personal preference?

    Seems pretty simple and should about wrap up this thread.




    Choice of equipment certainly affects scoring. But for some people other things matter more than the lowest possible scores.



    Heck, some people use antique hickory shafted clubs because they enjoy them more than modern clubs.
    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm oot. Canadian in California 9417Members Posts: 9,417
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #54
    farmer wrote:


    Blades have changed a great deal since the '60's, when I started to play. Even the bladiest blades are easier to play than they were back in the day. That said, why is easier a bad thing? If golf is to grow and thrive, having equipment that makes a basic level of competence easier to attain seems a no brainer. A modern GI iron makes it easier to get a ball in the air, bad mishits tend not to be as catastrophic as they were with my old Hagen blades. This is a golf nerd site, and is the only place I've heard a blade-gi debate.


    Too true.

    I've had more than one person ask about them or say cool blades in regards to my S55s. One time I said, oh well, really they're small CB not actually a blade, but it's the most compact iron Ping makes, yadda yadda yadda... as I saw their eyes start to glaze over at my pedantic reply, I copped on. Now I just say - yes, thanks image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • vmanvman  1291Members Posts: 1,291
    Joined:  #55
    Some of the best ball flight and distance control I've ever seen was by Colin Montgomerie and Lee Westwood. At the time one had original Big Berthas and the other Zing 2's. It's really not about the irons but the individuals using them.
    Posted:
    CALLAWAY EPIC SUB ZERO 9*
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    ODYSSEY 2M CS
  • duffer987duffer987 I'm oot. Canadian in California 9417Members Posts: 9,417
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #56
    vman wrote:


    Some of the best ball flight and distance control I've ever seen was by Colin Montgomerie and Lee Westwood. At the time one had original Big Berthas and the other Zing 2's. It's really not about the irons but the individuals using them.


    Didn't Annika use those GIs too? Maybe x-12/14s? Yes a quick google does show that.



    Not comparing us to them, but above folks have made the 'pros' reference.
    Posted:
  • CwebbCwebb  6005Members Posts: 6,005
    Joined:  #57




    Also, I am self-taught. For that reason, back then a relative on tour advised me if ball-striking was important to me switch to blades. His words, "blades will help me find the proper swing plane, and I believe that was true then... not so much today, as blade design has changed.






    That's a new one that I hadn't heard of image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />
    Posted:
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  • dunndunn  6362Members Posts: 6,362
    Joined:  edited Sep 15, 2018 #58
    Practice and hard work lower scores get a golfer as good as possible,



    Equipment is maybe 5%

    The swing, mental approach is 95%



    Why focus on smallest part of equation and only get a 5% return
    Posted:
  • North ButteNorth Butte  11741Members Posts: 11,741
    Joined:  #59
    dunn wrote:


    Practice and hard work lower scores get a golfer as good as possible,



    Equipment is maybe 5%

    The swing, mental approach is 95%



    Why focus on smallest part of equation and only get a 5% return




    So are you saying if someone buys a set of AP1’s they are not allowed to practice their swing and mental approach?



    You are allowed to have both, the best clubs AND the hard work and practice. The whole 100% at once!
    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolina 28637Members Posts: 28,637
    Joined:  #60


    Is an interesting topic, but to me golf is a game, if I want to have hard time, I go back to work and forget retirement, lol.....



    I’ll take advantage of every single piece of technology available, **** skippy! The only exception is my putter, I will continue to use my 330g forever.




    why? why not get a putter that will help you make more putts?
    Posted:
    Ping G410  11.2* Tensei pro OrangeV2 proto 70TX 
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
    Ping Blueprint  3- PW   Modus 130X 
    Ping Glide Forged  54 60 s400
    Cameron GSS 1.5 009. Sound slot,  tungsten weights. 


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