What is actually a forgiving driver in reality?

[NoTalentLefty]

Read my post on what my fitter said. The link is only one I chose. Are we an illiterate society or just skimmers.

[Nard_S]

OP, I hear you and find comfort in deep face, slightly open head designs. Best on course performance comes with those and like you played persimmon and early generation metals. I thin that past experience matters in this.Getting square face is not as hard as squaring path and often the two can work together to straighten out shot. Generally my miss is in the vertical of face & consistency of path. But getting stuck or being OTT is secondary to being too steep in approach to ball which is my dragon to slay.

 

I've stumbled upon back weighting my driver with a heavier grip and I seem to get better results. That or go another 10g on shaft. I replaced my R510 that had an oversize corded grip w/ a modern ti head that did not. The old TM worked better even though new one has better head and same shaft.weight. So I just added 15g of butt weight to new one and found fairways a lot easier this past weekend. So maybe look into the rest of your specs too and not just the head.

 

I have not tried this but I have tried counterbalanced shafts and they work pretty well until I overcook one to the left. Did you compensate for swingweight when you tested the 15g weight?

 

No, because from the factory they came in at D3 w/319 grams of total weight. Added a heavier corded grip and put a machined plug made of copper for another 10g. So they are around 334g and SW is (I'm guessing here) about D1+. I took to the course cold without test and it went well and did a short range stint last evening and I hit them with same distance with the added plus of better control. Like others have said, weight can work voodoo on how it matches swing and I'm probably happier in something around 330-335 gram range for Driver. Club is set at 9.5*, 1* open w/ 60S TP shaft. Dominant shot is fade but can go draw intuitively. Nasty hooks only happen if I yank on the handle but getting stuck or going steep/thin is predominant miss which the weighting quelled quite a bit.

[grochol17]

Read my post on what my fitter said. The link is only one I chose. Are we an illiterate society or just skimmers.

 

I can read just fine, but your "that's what my fitter said" statement wasn't backed up by anything other than that article, which was complete nonsense.

 

But, I'll bite... what exactly did your fitter say? On what did the fitter base their suggestion of you using a higher lofted 460cc driver? Why did you ignore the recommendation and go with a 440cc lower lofted driver?

[Albatrosss]

The main reason I started this thread is to see if anybody else experienced worse dispersion with a forgiving high moi driver than a less forgiving driver. It was also to discuss what forgiving actually means in advertising. It is apparently not better dispersion but rather a longer shot regardless of any direction.

 

As long as you make decent contact with your driver and hit similar distances a low moi driver might be a better choice for you and as you only sacrifice a little length with increased dispersion pattern. You most probably are good at curving the ball into the target when your path is going out or in in this category of player. On the other hand if you hit a lot around the face and have problems with distance consistency a high moi driver might be the better choice.

 

There is also other aspects with playing forgiving equipment. A long time ago during the 90's I went from a set of Ben hogan apex red line blades to the first generation of Big bertha irons. Those two sets are pretty much as far apart of forgiveness from each other as you can get. The big bertha irons was great at first but after a while my swing and precision got worse. The reason was lack of feedback. It was hard to tell where the ball was hit on the face and my ballstriking degraded. An other aspect is lie angle on modern clubs, Clubs was considerable flatter before. Most beginners swing steep so an upright lie angle will help you. At least in the beginning but is this the way to become a great ballstriker starting with clubs that not give feedback of face impact and promotes a steep swing. According to me a beginner starting with a set of blades and flat lie angles will be a better player after a year than one starting out with a upright forgiving set. But of course it is also about what your goal with golf is. Is it to play 5-10 rounds a year a forgiving set might keep you in the game instead of quitting golf.

 

I think the key of finding correct set of clubs is to find the exact level of something that gives you feedback when you slightly miss hit but still works for the majority of your shots.

[Stuart_G]

In advertising, "forgiving" could be anythings. It means whatever it's in the companies best interest to mean for that particular product (whatever the marketing dept. wants it to mean).

 

As long as you make decent contact with your driver and hit similar distances a low moi driver might be a better choice for you and as you only sacrifice a little length with increased dispersion pattern. You most probably are good at curving the ball into the target when your path is going out or in in this category of player. On the other hand if you hit a lot around the face and have problems with distance consistency a high moi driver might be the better choice.

 

That's not a bad generalization at all but, many would say that if you're hitting it all over the face, some other aspect of the fit of the club is not quite right and should be addressed - playing length, shaft weight, swing weight, etc...

 

 

 

but is this the way to become a great ballstriker starting with clubs that not give feedback of face impact and promotes a steep swing. According to me a beginner starting with a set of blades and flat lie angles will be a better player after a year than one starting out with a upright forgiving set.

 

Old argument that never ends well - so I don't suggest you pursue it here. But what I will say is that with respect to the intended topic of the thread, those things are not generally considered an aspect of how forgiving a club is. Its' generally only about what happens to the ball (whether direction, spin, ball speed) when the impact is less than ideal, not how it might impact future swings.

[Solidstrike]

It’s an interesting debate. Yes, modern drivers are more forgiving. There should be no question about that, the engineers know what they’re doing for sure.

 

Does it translate for you? Maybe, maybe not. An older familiar club can be far more effective for you if you’re comfortable hitting it well.

 

Length and static weight can play a big factor too. Persimmon drivers are like a modern fairway wood with a heavy, heavy shaft. Switching to a modern driver with a light, long shaft can be disastrous if you aren’t used to it.

 

It’s basically a long formula that includes factors like, do you hit it well often, does it feel right, does it make up for your miss hit tendencies somehow, are you confident when you pick it up, do you believe in the technology, was it designed in recent history, and the “it” factor.

[Albatrosss]

In advertising, "forgiving" could be anythings. It means whatever it's in the companies best interest to mean for that particular product (whatever the marketing dept. wants it to mean).

It’s an interesting debate. Yes, modern drivers are more forgiving. There should be no question about that, the engineers know what they’re doing for sure.

 

Does it translate for you? Maybe, maybe not. An older familiar club can be far more effective for you if you’re comfortable hitting it well.

 

Length and static weight can play a big factor too. Persimmon drivers are like a modern fairway wood with a heavy, heavy shaft. Switching to a modern driver with a light, long shaft can be disastrous if you aren’t used to it.

 

It’s basically a long formula that includes factors like, do you hit it well often, does it feel right, does it make up for your miss hit tendencies somehow, are you confident when you pick it up, do you believe in the technology, was it designed in recent history, and the “it” factor.

 

 

I guess that is spot on what this thread is all about. Marketing says something that not necessarily gives the result that the average customer is expecting from buying a club. The business categories people into different HCP-groups and point them to specific types of clubs that not necessary will make them better. Frequency of playing is probably a far more important factor if you ask me. I think this is what NoTalentLefty and some others including me is trying to say in this thread.

[mgrifone]

I think of forgiveness as the ability to maintain ball speed on off-center hits. If I need to carry a bunker, I want the driver that gives me the most consistent ball speed to make the carry if I have an off-center hit. My face-to-path will mostly control the direction.

[1Mordrid1]

I think of forgiveness as the ability to maintain ball speed on off-center hits. If I need to carry a bunker, I want the driver that gives me the most consistent ball speed to make the carry if I have an off-center hit. My face-to-path will mostly control the direction.

 

This ^^^^^

 

Manufacturers are intentionally vague in what "forgiveness" means when it comes to the performance aspect of a club.

 

The first marketing ads that used the term "more forgiveness" would actually link the term "forgiveness" to the ability to maintain ball speeds across a larger portion of the face.

 

Somewhere along the line, with more vague marketing and the addition of terms like "game improvement", a lot of consumers now associate "forgiveness" with some sort of magic that will improve their game. In reallity it just means bad swings have a chance to go almost as far as good swings, but they still can and will end up in bad places.

[Albatrosss]

I think of forgiveness as the ability to maintain ball speed on off-center hits. If I need to carry a bunker, I want the driver that gives me the most consistent ball speed to make the carry if I have an off-center hit. My face-to-path will mostly control the direction.

 

Would you expect equal, worse or better dispersion from a forgiving driver?

[PorscheFan]

I think the golf equipment world would be better served if those touting increased forgiveness specified what user error they were 'forgiving' and how they were forgiving it.

 

Example: If my miss is right because I hit out of the heel as a general miss, then that being 'forgiven' by maintaining ball speed so my right miss goes further right I'd like to know that.

 

Alternatively is that strike miss is 'forgiven' by higher MOI reducing gear effect and keeping me in the fairway with a distance loss I'd like to know that also.

 

Similarly, if I strike out of the center of the face, but with an open face and out-to-in path, I'd like to know if and how that would be 'forgiven'.

 

We can blame the equipment manufacturers, but a general lack of knowledge from a fair portion of the consumer base means that questions don't need to be answered for the purchase to be made.