Ryder Cup disappointment

[cmatthews77]

The Euro players are the same 'bomb and gouge' types that Americans are. Most of them honed their games at colleges in the states on the same courses that people claim are detrimental to their "style of play". They don't work the ball like players of old and they don't play a different style of golf.

 

The tour stats on driving accuracy suggests otherwise. The Euros do have some long hitters, but more are just "long enough" and keep the ball in play.

 

So Rory, Rahm, Fleetwood, Rose...not bomb and gouge? Right.

 

Irrespective of what you call it, the PGA would be wise to either grow the rough at a few Tour events. 60 yard wide fairways isn't golf, regardless of whether you have a hard on for distance. If it was, we wouldn't have the trophy. Again.

 

Rory, Rahm, Fleetwood & Rose can all hit big when needed on those easy PGA tour courses because that's all they need. However, they learnt to play golf on coastal courses, links courses, parkland courses that aren't manicured and have rough. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. It is literally in their blood. Luke Donald became no1 without ever being more than a comparatively short driver of the ball, but his shot shaping and approach game is magnificent. The same as the guys above and the same as Oosthuizen and a select few Americans like Zach Johnson.

 

It all comes down to upbringing. American golfers only know one form of golf from childhood onwards, and adapt occasionally if they can. Europeans learn all skills of multiple disciplines and then take it to the USA and add in big driving.

 

I stand by this... If it was 2 majors in Europe and 2 majors in the USA you would see a hell of a lot less Americans with 2+ majors.

 

100% agree. There are a few exceptions of U.S. players... but they simply aren't on this team.

[Arpeggi]

The only strategy that we need to re think is maybe not choose a loser as your team captain.

[Darth Putter]

The Euro players are the same 'bomb and gouge' types that Americans are. Most of them honed their games at colleges in the states on the same courses that people claim are detrimental to their "style of play". They don't work the ball like players of old and they don't play a different style of golf.

 

The tour stats on driving accuracy suggests otherwise. The Euros do have some long hitters, but more are just "long enough" and keep the ball in play.

 

So Rory, Rahm, Fleetwood, Rose...not bomb and gouge? Right.

 

Right. The first 2, sure.

 

Rose was #43 and Fleetwood #64 on the tour for driving accuracy. And they were 3rd and 5th on the European team. Only Rickie on the US side was ahead of Fleetwood.

 

 

According to the European Tour's data consultants at the 15th club, the US actually hit the fairways at a better clip than the Euros in the first session by a 53-48% margin and won 3-1.

 

But it was all downhill from there.

 

Even a bomb and gauger like Seve could hit a fairway with a 3 iron. He won at Westchester twice on a short tight high rough course.

[BlueIslander80]

It's what makes Zach Johnsons win at St Andrews all the more impressive, his course management was fantastic. Same as Woods at Royal Hoylake. Leave the driver in the car because the fairways aren't wide and the rough is brutal.

 

I also want to give a really big thumbs up to Thomas and Finau. They both worked their socks off and showed passion and a sense of privilege to be there. Shame a few others didn't.

[FKA HB]

I feel that nobody on the US side with a losing record as a player should be allowed to captain. Furyk was a dreadful captain. Why even make it a requirement that the captain is a golfer? Put Nick Saban or Belichick at the helm. Tiger seems to have a knack at destroying team chemistry. Probably not his fault, but whatever. No Kuchar, no Stricker, no Zach Johnson, no nice guys. A bunch of red @sses like Kisner and Reed.

Play the event on American soil in the deep south. Get the NASCAR and pro wrestling fans to go. Get Europe thinking more about Deliverance than executing a proper golf shot.

[Darth Putter]

The only strategy that we need to re think is maybe not choose a loser as your team captain.

 

So that leaves us with Zach Johnson and...................I think Jeff Maggert is also one win over .500

 

This is how bad it is. The US has almost no one with a winning record to be Captain and Europe has way too many.

[HitEmTrue]

Maybe more of the USA team should have played at the French Open and took spring break over in France.

 

Nothing like preparing for an event.

 

Unrealistic. WGC & Bay Hill in March, while getting ready for the Masters. End of June seems to be down time for the top players, between US Open and getting ready for The Open.

[Konklifer]

The Euro players are the same 'bomb and gouge' types that Americans are. Most of them honed their games at colleges in the states on the same courses that people claim are detrimental to their "style of play". They don't work the ball like players of old and they don't play a different style of golf.

 

The tour stats on driving accuracy suggests otherwise. The Euros do have some long hitters, but more are just "long enough" and keep the ball in play.

 

So Rory, Rahm, Fleetwood, Rose...not bomb and gouge? Right.

 

Irrespective of what you call it, the PGA would be wise to either grow the rough at a few Tour events. 60 yard wide fairways isn't golf, regardless of whether you have a hard on for distance. If it was, we wouldn't have the trophy. Again.

 

Rory, Rahm, Fleetwood & Rose can all hit big when needed on those easy PGA tour courses because that's all they need. However, they learnt to play golf on coastal courses, links courses, parkland courses that aren't manicured and have rough. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. It is literally in their blood. Luke Donald became no1 without ever being more than a comparatively short driver of the ball, but his shot shaping and approach game is magnificent. The same as the guys above and the same as Oosthuizen and a select few Americans like Zach Johnson.

 

It all comes down to upbringing. American golfers only know one form of golf from childhood onwards, and adapt occasionally if they can. Europeans learn all skills of multiple disciplines and then take it to the USA and add in big driving.

 

I stand by this... If it was 2 majors in Europe and 2 majors in the USA you would see a hell of a lot less Americans with 2+ majors.

 

Rory and Rahm are b&g players, no matter where they grew up. Everyone can see that. Yet, the supposed acquisition of skill and adaptability that today's Euro players acquired growing up does not carry over to 'easy' PGA tour courses, with less danger. Despite Poulter's claim eight years ago.

 

A comparison of two "different" players:

 

From 150-175 yds out:

 

Rose: 24' 11" average to the hole on 129 attempts

DJ: 26' 2" average to the hole on 122 attempts

 

From 175-200 yds out:

 

Rose: 30' 10" average to the hole on 119 attempts

DJ: 28' 4" average to the hole on 124 attempts

 

DJ drives it only 10 yds further and 5.5% less accurately, yet they're mid range games are a wash. I'd say DJ's is a hair better considering he is not as accurate and has actually had more attempts from longer distance while hitting it closer. So if he is a bomb and gouger, what is Rose?

[jonsnow]

The only strategy that we need to re think is maybe not choose a loser as your team captain.

 

So that leaves us with Zach Johnson and...................I think Jeff Maggert is also one win over .500

 

This is how bad it is. The US has almost no one with a winning record to be Captain and Europe has way too many.

 

Larry Nelson is still available...

[Sactogolfer1234]

Maybe more of the USA team should have played at the French Open and took spring break over in France

 

I think this was huge, I was so surprised that so few of the US guys likely to be on the team took the opportunity to see the golf course beforehand. Couple that with all the tired and distracted US players, it lends credence to the argument that the Europeans simply want it more.

[Event^Horizon]

While I agree completely and have posted such over the weekend on the bomb and gouge tactic making u.s. tour players inferior golfers - the pga tour is absolutely not going to change the style of play required on their tour to facilitate a once every two years event that they have zero to do with.

 

Bomb and gouge with free relief from anything remotely in the way has made these guys exceptional PGA Tour players. It has made them inferior golfers.

 

I agree, and when some were lamenting the course set-up in the RC thread, I said that as professionals they should be able to play any style of course with skill. To blame poor play on the course set-up is ridiculous. Besides, as professionals they should be hitting fairways more often then not.

[Naptime]

At this point in his career there's really zilch that TW could realistically do in future RCs to change his overall RC history. His entry into the HOF is because of everything else. I would think or hope at some level he probably knows this.

[Gmack1973]

Thing is to me, bomb and gouge means that, if the distance allows, the player will hit driver...even if tactically another club would probably be the better play?? So Rose might hit his measured drives close to DJ, but is more likely to hit a 3 wood/iron if the drive is too tight. Im not sure DJ or BK etc do that, they would rather hit driver and hope to wedge it close.....nothing wrong with that but it probably wasnt the best tactic for the RC course.

[Pepperturbo]

It was a disappointing and pathetic Ryder Cup, and everyone that was watching it with me felt the same. Our team didn't appear to want to be there. They were not only indifferent or spent but didn't arrive prepared for the challenges that course presented. Big hitters had to adjust to cope with ugly rough or lose holes. They didn't function as a team, so deserved the whooping they got. I did feel sad for a few of our players that wanted to win but couldn't do it alone. The Euro team had the right attitude.

 

NOT meant to change the topic the golf course was configured the way state-side PGA courses should be; difficult for 'all.' If you can't put the ball in the fairway, pay the price for being errant. Doing so here in the states would eliminate the need for constant course expansion and whine about technology, and the ball goes too far. :beach:

[puttingmatt]

It was a disappointing and pathetic Ryder Cup, and everyone that was watching it with me felt the same. Our team didn't appear to want to be there. They were not only indifferent or spent but didn't arrive prepared for the challenges that course presented. Big hitters had to adjust to cope with ugly rough or lose holes. They didn't function as a team, so deserved the whooping they got. I did feel sad for a few of our players that wanted to win but couldn't do it alone. The Euro team had the right attitude.

 

NOT meant to change the topic the golf course was configured the way state-side PGA courses should be; difficult for 'all.' If you can't put the ball in the fairway, pay the price for being errant. Doing so here in the states would eliminate the need for constant course expansion and whine about technology, and the ball goes too far. :beach:

Exactly, thats how to deal with the ball rollback / ball goes to far issue.

[bullsfan]

IMO the whole system needs to be blown up! Or we will continue to witness countless butt kickings like this every two years. I do believe there are more American PGA Tour Golfers who care about the Ryder Cup and winning it then the top players that are regularly chosen to be on the squad, yes they seem to be the ones who qualify every two years but this is an attribute of them competing by themselves for personal glory and money. They set their schedules for these events and the "Team" aspects of their success take a back seat despite what they say or how they appear to act. Hell, the only team members who genuinely appeared to enjoy their time there competing were JT and Finau, I believe BAD wanted it but his game does not translate to these formats.

 

I believe that in order to change the outcomes of these formats is to pick the best players based on location of the event, not by who is top of the money list and qualified with points.

I also think the US should stop playing the Presidents Cup! Team Europe plays this type of event every two years and prepares for it, because it means a ton to them. The US plays in these type of events every year and does not prepare in the same way Europe does, our teams are stretched to thin and couple that with playing for themselves and their major schedules it leaves very little time to really prepare for team events.

 

I am like a lot of people here on this forum with a passion for golf and country and want to see our teams do well in these events. I don't claim to have all the answers but from years of watching and participating in golf at a high level I feel I have some insight to why it's not working for us. Something needs to change or why bother playing these events anymore. They are not even competitive. Oh and one last thing, TAKE OUT THE POLITICS!

 

Nobody is going to watch an Exhibition match contested by players other than the most popular players currently on Tour. There is no formula that gets, for example, a Beau Hoessler out there over Dustin Johnson because Beau happens to be able to get his driver in the fairway 5% better, that anyone wants to see. A steady-eddy Billy Horschel is not going to take Brook Koepka's spot until BK stops winning majors.

 

That goes double for a healthy Tiger Woods. Nobody will give any legitimacy to a contest with a healthy, competitive Tiger Woods sitting at home. His RC record is a moot point. He's Tiger Woods. He'll tell everyone when he's done. Not the other way around.

 

You might as well cancel the entire thing if you think you can craft a team that leaves the World #1, or the two-time defending US Open Champ, or players like Tiger Woods off for any reason whatsoever.

 

The team needs new blood that is hungrier than what we have now, simple as that. Watch if you want or not? TW, Phil, etc are no longer the answer.

[Naptime]

Make Tony Romo and Larry Fitzgerald the RC captains. They are accustomed to team sports and pretty good golfers.

[Rosco1216]

Finau, Xander, Kisner should have been 3 of captain's picks

[puttingmatt]

America will get another chance to get the Ryder Cup in two years .

[SheriffBooth]

Does anyone know where to find actual statistics from this past weekend? Fairways hit and strokes gained and driving distance and all that?

 

My impression from watching was that the Euro team was doing its fair share of spraying it around, but they seemed to be making a lot more putts.

 

I think the end of the FedEx Cup schedule had plenty to do with our guys demeanor and body language in France. Tiger looked notably tired, although he still played pretty well in my opinion. And by Sunday lots of the guys looked tired. Between jetlag and playing the 5th straight week of high stakes grinding golf I'm not surprised if they were out of gas at the end. PGA Tour didn't do the U.S. team any favors with their brainless scheduling.

[GSDriver]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Euro Team simply played better and made a ridiculous percentage of putts, which usually wins golf tournaments, team or individual.

[JohnnyCashForever]

2. How long ago did Captain Furyk know about the course set-up? Why didn't he pick players who are better suited for precision over power? Kisner perhaps? Why didn't he mandate that all potential team members play the French Open in 2017 or 2018? Justin played this year. He did well in the tournament. That must have helped considerably at the Ryder Cup.

 

 

He's got 4 picks in theory, but the reality is that he had maybe one.

 

Tiger and Phil were locks as long as they were healthy. BD played himself on by winning two FedEx tourneys.

 

So you swap Kisner with Finau? That's the fix?

 

The RC captain could have 12 captain's picks and he'd still end up with almost the exact same team as they end up with every year. There isn't some huge stable of dependable talent out there being overlooked that you could pick from and still be considered a legitimate team in the eyes of everyone in the world not commenting on this thread.

 

A team without TW is not legitimate. A team without the World's #1 is not legitimate. A team without the winner of the last two US Open's is not legitimate. A team without "Captain America Reed" would not have been legitimate.

 

Excellent point. No Captain is going to leave off current major champions, a player hot over the last several months leading to the RC, or the world's #1, for Kevin Kisner, or some other run of the mill tour player because they have some specific stat in which they are proficient. If a Captain where to do this and lose, they would be the laughing stock of the pro golf fraternity forever. Blackballed as a kook.

 

The whole reason they limit the Captain's pick and make the bulk of team qualify without human intervention is to keep some nut job from going off the rails. It is like leaving Lebron off the U.S. team in favor of Trevor Ariza.

 

Horses for courses. There's a reason Phil has never won a US Open (when they were still set up like US Opens).

[bluetees1999]

2. How long ago did Captain Furyk know about the course set-up? Why didn't he pick players who are better suited for precision over power? Kisner perhaps? Why didn't he mandate that all potential team members play the French Open in 2017 or 2018? Justin played this year. He did well in the tournament. That must have helped considerably at the Ryder Cup.

 

 

He's got 4 picks in theory, but the reality is that he had maybe one.

 

Tiger and Phil were locks as long as they were healthy. BD played himself on by winning two FedEx tourneys.

 

So you swap Kisner with Finau? That's the fix?

 

The RC captain could have 12 captain's picks and he'd still end up with almost the exact same team as they end up with every year. There isn't some huge stable of dependable talent out there being overlooked that you could pick from and still be considered a legitimate team in the eyes of everyone in the world not commenting on this thread.

 

A team without TW is not legitimate. A team without the World's #1 is not legitimate. A team without the winner of the last two US Open's is not legitimate. A team without "Captain America Reed" would not have been legitimate.

 

Excellent point. No Captain is going to leave off current major champions, a player hot over the last several months leading to the RC, or the world's #1, for Kevin Kisner, or some other run of the mill tour player because they have some specific stat in which they are proficient. If a Captain where to do this and lose, they would be the laughing stock of the pro golf fraternity forever. Blackballed as a kook.

 

The whole reason they limit the Captain's pick and make the bulk of team qualify without human intervention is to keep some nut job from going off the rails. It is like leaving Lebron off the U.S. team in favor of Trevor Ariza.

 

Horses for courses. There's a reason Phil has never won a US Open (when they were still set up like US Opens).

He did finish second or T2 six times at the US Open

[puttingmatt]

Does anyone know where to find actual statistics from this past weekend? Fairways hit and strokes gained and driving distance and all that?

 

My impression from watching was that the Euro team was doing its fair share of spraying it around, but they seemed to be making a lot more putts.

 

I think the end of the FedEx Cup schedule had plenty to do with our guys demeanor and body language in France. Tiger looked notably tired, although he still played pretty well in my opinion. And by Sunday lots of the guys looked tired. Between jetlag and playing the 5th straight week of high stakes grinding golf I'm not surprised if they were out of gas at the end. PGA Tour didn't do the U.S. team any favors with their brainless scheduling.

No they did not, years ago, the season was over for several weeks before the Ryder Cup.

[Londoner]

 

 

Bomb and gouge with free relief from anything remotely in the way has made these guys exceptional PGA Tour players. It has made them inferior golfers.

 

I think this is very true and sad, in equal measure.

[golfandfishing]

Does anyone know where to find actual statistics from this past weekend? Fairways hit and strokes gained and driving distance and all that?

 

My impression from watching was that the Euro team was doing its fair share of spraying it around, but they seemed to be making a lot more putts.

 

I think the end of the FedEx Cup schedule had plenty to do with our guys demeanor and body language in France. Tiger looked notably tired, although he still played pretty well in my opinion. And by Sunday lots of the guys looked tired. Between jetlag and playing the 5th straight week of high stakes grinding golf I'm not surprised if they were out of gas at the end. PGA Tour didn't do the U.S. team any favors with their brainless scheduling.

No they did not, years ago, the season was over for several weeks before the Ryder Cup.

 

 

 

Neither of these is true. The FedEx Cup has a 1 week break before the Tour Championship, this was not played after 5 straight weeks of high stakes golf by any means. It was the 2nd straight week of golf, for a bunch of guys built like linebackers this shouldn’t be hard. Also, in the past the Tour Championship was in October, after the Ryder Cup.

[Event^Horizon]

^^^^^I have heard of people who work like 5 days in a row, for at least 8 hours each day, and they do this for at least 48 weeks a year!

[Bad9]

I think the end of the FedEx Cup schedule had plenty to do with our guys demeanor and body language in France. Tiger looked notably tired, although he still played pretty well in my opinion. And by Sunday lots of the guys looked tired. Between jetlag and playing the 5th straight week of high stakes grinding golf I'm not surprised if they were out of gas at the end. PGA Tour didn't do the U.S. team any favors with their brainless scheduling.

 

11 of the 12 US players played the same schedule but so did 6 of the Euro team, Rose, Rory, Fleetwood, Rahm, Casey and Molinari. Are they in better shape than their opponnets?

[Londoner]

^^^^^I have heard of people who work like 5 days in a row, for at least 8 hours each day, and they do this for at least 48 weeks a year!

Pros do much more than an 8 hour day. Also dont forget theyre usually committed to a pro am, a couple of practice days plus the tournament days. Week in week out living out of hotels and travelling. I can see it being very wearing.

[ryanarneson]

I think the end of the FedEx Cup schedule had plenty to do with our guys demeanor and body language in France. Tiger looked notably tired, although he still played pretty well in my opinion. And by Sunday lots of the guys looked tired. Between jetlag and playing the 5th straight week of high stakes grinding golf I'm not surprised if they were out of gas at the end. PGA Tour didn't do the U.S. team any favors with their brainless scheduling.

 

11 of the 12 US players played the same schedule but so did 6 of the Euro team, Rose, Rory, Fleetwood, Rahm, Casey and Molinari. Are they in better shape than their opponnets?

 

Something to be said about how the Euros were traveling home. (Even though none of them are French). It's familiar to them. Easier to adjust. They're not out of their element at all. They bounce around the various countries all the time and are still in Europe. And they're also not out of their element at all in the US since most of them live here for large chunks of the year. They have 2nd homes here if not their actual full time home with the kids in school.

 

The Americans go to Europe once a year, maybe, for the British Open. I can imagine the simple fact of getting a familiar breakfast, while not exactly a hardship for anyone at their level, is non-trivial.