Putting with flag in (MERGED)

[bladehunter]

Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.

 

I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."

 

 

I'm going to pull it.

 

He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.

 

Love these absolutes. Would be same as me saying “ the pin will never help a putt go in “.

 

Come on. How many times have we seen the pin spit out a bunker shot or chip on tv ? Hundreds.

 

Pelz ramblings didn’t even say 100%.

 

Edit-

 

2 things come to mind when mentioning Pelz’s research.

 

1. If he constructed this at his test facility I bet his cups are seated in cement. His greens and surrounds are artificial. I installed my artificial green and 99.9 % of them have cups set in quickrete. Laser or bubble leveled exact. So the pin will be exactly upright. No angles or variables.

 

2. Phil mickleson. Probably the 1st high profile Pelz desciple. Mentions him all the time. He has no faith i this research as evident by his constant tending of the flag on approaches and pin out chips. Why is that ?

 

I just don’t think anyone has any concrete idea how often the pin will help or hurt on a real course setting. Maybe it’s a wash ? Maybe it’s not. Certainly not close to a science yet. No REAL data yet.

[rawdog]

Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.

 

I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."

 

 

I'm going to pull it.

 

He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.

 

Love these absolutes. Would be same as me saying " the pin will never help a putt go in ".

 

Come on. How many times have we seen the pin spit out a bunker shot or chip on tv ? Hundreds.

 

Pelz ramblings didn't even say 100%.

 

I suppose anything is possible. I'm not gonna call Ferg a liar but I think that example would be poor justification for leaving the pin in. The physics do not compute.

 

I hit a putt once that hit the back edge of a cup that wasn't sunk deep enough. Hit the lip of the actual cup and came back at me. If it were earth as it should have been, it would most likely have dropped.

[bladehunter]

Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.

 

I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."

 

 

I'm going to pull it.

 

He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.

 

Love these absolutes. Would be same as me saying " the pin will never help a putt go in ".

 

Come on. How many times have we seen the pin spit out a bunker shot or chip on tv ? Hundreds.

 

Pelz ramblings didn't even say 100%.

 

I suppose anything is possible. I'm not gonna call Ferg a liar but I think that example would be poor justification for leaving the pin in. The physics do not compute.

 

I hit a putt once that hit the back edge of a cup that wasn't sunk deep enough. Hit the lip of the actual cup and came back at me. If it were earth as it should have been, it would most likely have dropped.

See my above edit.

[rawdog]

Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.

 

I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."

 

 

I'm going to pull it.

 

He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.

 

Love these absolutes. Would be same as me saying " the pin will never help a putt go in ".

 

Come on. How many times have we seen the pin spit out a bunker shot or chip on tv ? Hundreds.

 

Pelz ramblings didn't even say 100%.

 

Edit-

 

2 things come to mind when mentioning Pelz's research.

 

1. If he constructed this at his test facility I bet his cups are seated in cement. His greens and surrounds are artificial. I installed my artificial green and 99.9 % of them have cups set in quickrete. Laser or bubble leveled exact. So the pin will be exactly upright. No angles or variables.

 

2. Phil mickleson. Probably the 1st high profile Pelz desciple. Mentions him all the time. He has no faith i this research as evident by his constant tending of the flag on approaches and pin out chips. Why is that ?

 

I just don't think anyone has any concrete idea how often the pin will help or hurt on a real course setting. Maybe it's a wash ? Maybe it's not. Certainly not close to a science yet. No REAL data yet.

 

I'm headed out for a date (shocking, I know for a nerd like me), so I really want to give your post the attention it deserves.

 

You bring up good points, but I'd encourage you to read the link to Pelz article/study. It was done on five separate greens and he mentions the variables of using natural turf, including it wearing, holes wearing, and imperfections in the green.

 

That being said, I also posted a link with a good analysis of the physics involved. I understand capture rates and the physics involved, but some of it is admittedly a bit beyond my education.

 

So in my mind, both in theory and in practice (including using a machine and a human), I am confident in saying keeping it in is a better long-term strategy.

 

The one brief thing I'll say about Phil is that while the hole effectively becomes larger with the stick in, it APPEARS larger with the stick out. So I think you are onto something as to why players take it out. It has to do with the visualization and feel, which we both know is a big component of the game.

 

Have a good evening... hopefully I can come back tonight and add to the convo.

 

https://www.golf.com...ion/flag-or-out

[pinhigh27]

Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.

 

I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."

 

 

I'm going to pull it.

 

He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.

 

Love these absolutes. Would be same as me saying “ the pin will never help a putt go in “.

 

Come on. How many times have we seen the pin spit out a bunker shot or chip on tv ? Hundreds.

 

Pelz ramblings didn’t even say 100%.

 

Edit-

 

2 things come to mind when mentioning Pelz’s research.

 

1. If he constructed this at his test facility I bet his cups are seated in cement. His greens and surrounds are artificial. I installed my artificial green and 99.9 % of them have cups set in quickrete. Laser or bubble leveled exact. So the pin will be exactly upright. No angles or variables.

 

2. Phil mickleson. Probably the 1st high profile Pelz desciple. Mentions him all the time. He has no faith i this research as evident by his constant tending of the flag on approaches and pin out chips. Why is that ?

 

I just don’t think anyone has any concrete idea how often the pin will help or hurt on a real course setting. Maybe it’s a wash ? Maybe it’s not. Certainly not close to a science yet. No REAL data yet.

 

Some of it is mental, ie some guys can visualize better with taking it out. Also it can hurt you if you fly into it like tiger at masters. The guy you quoted said on a good putt it will never hurt you which is true, unless it's crooked

[bladehunter]

Playing last week with my older son. He's got a 8 footer for bird.

 

I suggest, "let's leave the flag in - it's almost 2019."

He putts and it hits the stick dead center, missing the putt.

He gives me a dirty look, "Dad, the flag comes out, okay."

 

 

I'm going to pull it.

 

He would've missed it then anyway, it was going too fast. It will never hurt a good putt that would've dropped.

 

Love these absolutes. Would be same as me saying " the pin will never help a putt go in ".

 

Come on. How many times have we seen the pin spit out a bunker shot or chip on tv ? Hundreds.

 

Pelz ramblings didn't even say 100%.

 

Edit-

 

2 things come to mind when mentioning Pelz's research.

 

1. If he constructed this at his test facility I bet his cups are seated in cement. His greens and surrounds are artificial. I installed my artificial green and 99.9 % of them have cups set in quickrete. Laser or bubble leveled exact. So the pin will be exactly upright. No angles or variables.

 

2. Phil mickleson. Probably the 1st high profile Pelz desciple. Mentions him all the time. He has no faith i this research as evident by his constant tending of the flag on approaches and pin out chips. Why is that ?

 

I just don't think anyone has any concrete idea how often the pin will help or hurt on a real course setting. Maybe it's a wash ? Maybe it's not. Certainly not close to a science yet. No REAL data yet.

 

I'm headed out for a date (shocking, I know for a nerd like me), so I really want to give your post the attention it deserves.

 

You bring up good points, but I'd encourage you to read the link to Pelz article/study. It was done on five separate greens and he mentions the variables of using natural turf, including it wearing, holes wearing, and imperfections in the green.

 

That being said, I also posted a link with a good analysis of the physics involved. I understand capture rates and the physics involved, but some of it is admittedly a bit beyond my education.

 

So in my mind, both in theory and in practice (including using a machine and a human), I am confident in saying keeping it in is a better long-term strategy.

 

The one brief thing I'll say about Phil is that while the hole effectively becomes larger with the stick in, it APPEARS larger with the stick out. So I think you are onto something as to why players take it out. It has to do with the visualization and feel, which we both know is a big component of the game.

 

Have a good evening... hopefully I can come back tonight and add to the convo.

 

https://www.golf.com...ion/flag-or-out

 

Man ! Get your head In the game ! Who gives a turkey about pins and old men with beards rolling their balls around.

 

Go have a good time. Don’t do anything I wouldn’t do ! Lol. On second thought I’m married. Don’t listen to that. Lol.

 

 

[pinhigh27]

Idk why this is so hard to understand. Take the flag out and putt the ball as hard as you can until it doesn't drop in back of cup. That isn't that hard, once you start running it 10+ feet by its gonna hit back lip and keep going or pop up but not go in. Versus the pin where you can hit it very hard and still make it. And like we've said if you hit it so hard it would bounce off pin out of hole there is clearly no way it would stay in cup.

 

 

[davep043]

I think we should all get ourselves a "Perfect Putter" http://www.theperfectputter.com/

Then we can all go to our own courses, and see what happens at a variety of speeds, at a variety of locations in the cup, with the flagstick in and out. You can get pretty much identical speeds and lines, so you can really isolate the influence of the flag. You can test putts at perfect holing speed, and at speeds that just might lip in, and at speeds that have no chance of staying in. We can compile the results and come up with a definite recommendations. And there will still be people who will always take it out, and others who will always leave it in.

[iBanesto]

“It depends on the firmness value of the flag. The C.O.R. or coefficient of restitution of the flagstick,” DeChambeau said after his opening round at the Shriners Hospitals for Children Open.

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2018/11/01/bryson-dechambeau-flagstick-putting-rules-of-golf-sentry-tournament-of-champions.html

[Holy Moses]

“It depends on the firmness value of the flag. The C.O.R. or coefficient of restitution of the flagstick,” DeChambeau said after his opening round at the Shriners Hospitals for Children Open.

 

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2018/11/01/bryson-dechambeau-flagstick-putting-rules-of-golf-sentry-tournament-of-champions.html

 

Oh cmon we talk about COR and CT all the time here and it’s not weird sciency stuff. For Bryson, leaving the flag in or out depends on how hard the flagstick is. Is this a US Open flag or not.

[new2g0lf]

I've never had much luck putting with the flag in, seems whenever I hit the flag the ball bounces out, not in. In addition to COR I wonder if ball compression and cover material matters.

[MarkFromTheUK]

This will only serve to destroy the lip on the holes. So many times I’ve seen people hold a putt with the flag in, then yank the flag out in the hope the ball will follow, only to take a piece of the lip with it. The ball stays in the hole about 65% of the time too.

 

Stupid new rule IMO.

[Nard_S]

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

[extrastiff]

This will only serve to destroy the lip on the holes. So many times I’ve seen people hold a putt with the flag in, then yank the flag out in the hope the ball will follow, only to take a piece of the lip with it. The ball stays in the hole about 65% of the time too.

 

Stupid new rule IMO.

The stupidest. For many reasons.

 

The other hope is grab the ball out with flag in, also screwing up the lip.

 

 

[Railroading13]

Never want the flag in for the simple reason I love the sound the ball makes when holing a putt

[jmck]

This will only serve to destroy the lip on the holes. So many times I’ve seen people hold a putt with the flag in, then yank the flag out in the hope the ball will follow, only to take a piece of the lip with it. The ball stays in the hole about 65% of the time too.

 

Stupid new rule IMO.

 

Agreed.

 

In addition to hole damage It'll slow play down on tour when one guy wants the pin in and one out. That will trickle down to your local course soon enough--the scientists versus the traditionalists.

 

Also how long before some capitalist patents a flag stick with a super low COR? Or maybe one that has the bottom foot made out of some sort of slightly sticky material. Then we've got a flag stick technology race on our hands, with members pressuring their course to buy the latest and greatest. Then the governing bodies can step in and come up with a brand new set of regulations for flag sticks, implement testing policies, declare certain ones nonconforming, forcing courses to buy a whole new set of flag sticks yet again.

 

Stupid rule with little benefit but lots of unintended consequences.

[Vindog]

I had not considered the act(s) of removing the ball from the cup with the flagstick in. Good points.

 

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

 

I don't think the PGA has anything to do with it, nor can do anything about it.

[Vindog]

Also how long before some capitalist patents a flag stick with a super low COR? Or maybe one that has the bottom foot made out of some sort of slightly sticky material. Then we've got a flag stick technology race on our hands, with members pressuring their course to buy the latest and greatest. Then the governing bodies can step in and come up with a brand new set of regulations for flag sticks, implement testing policies, declare certain ones nonconforming, forcing courses to buy a whole new set of flag sticks yet again.

 

 

Sounds good in theory, but I doubt it would happen. There already are some restrictions on flagstick material and construction.

[ibradley]

I would be shocked if the PGA tour doesn’t implement a local rule requiring the pin to be pulled when a player is on the green.

[Holy Moses]

I had not considered the act(s) of removing the ball from the cup with the flagstick in. Good points.

 

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

 

I don't think the PGA has anything to do with it, nor can do anything about it.

 

The PGA can make any rules they want on their tour, they just happen to align with the USGA’s rules.

[Vindog]

I had not considered the act(s) of removing the ball from the cup with the flagstick in. Good points.

 

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

 

I don't think the PGA has anything to do with it, nor can do anything about it.

 

The PGA can make any rules they want on their tour, they just happen to align with the USGA's rules.

 

That sounds great as a sound bite, but they ain't making any rules. C'mon. But I guess you are correct technically.

[Nard_S]

I had not considered the act(s) of removing the ball from the cup with the flagstick in. Good points.

 

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

 

I don't think the PGA has anything to do with it, nor can do anything about it.

 

The PGA can make any rules they want on their tour, they just happen to align with the USGA's rules.

 

That sounds great as a sound bite, but they ain't making any rules. C'mon. But I guess you are correct technically.

 

They might be forced to do so. Flags in at Augusta? Heresy!...................Not kidding, it really is to me.

[Vindog]

I had not considered the act(s) of removing the ball from the cup with the flagstick in. Good points.

 

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

 

I don't think the PGA has anything to do with it, nor can do anything about it.

 

The PGA can make any rules they want on their tour, they just happen to align with the USGA's rules.

 

That sounds great as a sound bite, but they ain't making any rules. C'mon. But I guess you are correct technically.

 

They might be forced to do so. Flags in at Augusta? Heresy!...................Not kidding, it really is to me.

 

Or, or, or..........they will permanently leave the flag in on 15, in memoriam you know.

[Mcgeeno]

This will only serve to destroy the lip on the holes. So many times I’ve seen people hold a putt with the flag in, then yank the flag out in the hope the ball will follow, only to take a piece of the lip with it. The ball stays in the hole about 65% of the time too.

 

Stupid new rule IMO.

 

I have literally never seen that.

 

I've seen plenty of golfers scrape a ball out with their putter and destroy a hole with the flag out though.

[bladehunter]

I had not considered the act(s) of removing the ball from the cup with the flagstick in. Good points.

 

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

 

I don't think the PGA has anything to do with it, nor can do anything about it.

 

I’m

Sure a local rule can be applied.

[Holy Moses]

I had not considered the act(s) of removing the ball from the cup with the flagstick in. Good points.

 

I find leaving flag in is beneficial on longer putts and it's largely due to the visual aid of alignment. I can see Pro's going with anything over 20' leave it, fast & slick leave it. Take the break out and bang it, leave it. Somewhat surprised the PGA is letting this one fly.

 

I don't think the PGA has anything to do with it, nor can do anything about it.

 

The PGA can make any rules they want on their tour, they just happen to align with the USGA's rules.

 

That sounds great as a sound bite, but they ain't making any rules. C'mon. But I guess you are correct technically.

 

My point is that they could have chosen to not adapt the anchoring rule if they wanted to. There was talk that they were not going to. The same could happrn with the new pin rule. They can pick and choose what they want, the Tour just doesn’t want to. Yet.

[Vindog]

I'm

Sure a local rule can be applied.

 

I don't think that you can just invent local rules. As far as I know, they have to fall within certain parameters.

[Vindog]

That sounds great as a sound bite, but they ain't making any rules. C'mon. But I guess you are correct technically.

 

My point is that they could have chosen to not adapt the anchoring rule if they wanted to. There was talk that they were not going to. The same could happrn with the new pin rule. They can pick and choose what they want, the Tour just doesn't want to. Yet.

 

Indeed I remember the hub-bub. But no way they were going to. It was a great talking point though. They would/could be playing with different rules than the 4 biggest tournaments for their players.

[Golf Puff]

1. Flagsticks in holes were permitted until at least the late 1950s - just watch some of the old PGA Tour golf tournament videos. I don't know why there was a rules change to mandate a penalty for striking the flagstick from on the putting green. Maybe it was because the flagstick was thought to be an assistance?!

 

2. Read Pelz' Short Game Bible for more on his scientific experiments with and without flagstick, then make your own decision. Flagstick IN for me.

 

3. Already are some differences in PGA Tour vs. USGA rules such as PGA Tour - no practice putting after completing a hole in stroke play. Some golfers will practice after finishing a hole in the USGA tournaments including the US Open - provided they aren't holding up play. I've watched Tom Watson do this (and look behind him to ensure he wasn't holding up a group in the fairway).

[Vindog]

1. Flagsticks in holes were permitted until at least the late 1950s - just watch some of the old PGA Tour golf tournament videos. I don't know why there was a rules change to mandate a penalty for striking the flagstick from on the putting green. Maybe it was because the flagstick was thought to be an assistance?!

 

2. Read Pelz' Short Game Bible for more on his scientific experiments with and without flagstick, then make your own decision. Flagstick IN for me.

 

3. Already are some differences in PGA Tour vs. USGA rules such as PGA Tour - no practice putting after completing a hole in stroke play. Some golfers will practice after finishing a hole in the USGA tournaments including the US Open - provided they aren't holding up play. I've watched Tom Watson do this (and look behind him to ensure he wasn't holding up a group in the fairway).

 

That's a condition of competition allowed under 33-1. So while they have that in their hard card, it's not a rule that differs from the USGA rules. And I think they also practice a stroke from the last green during the match plays.

 

7-2. During Round

 

 

A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.

 

Between the play of two holes a player must not make a practice stroke, except that he may practice putting or chipping on or near:

 

a.

the putting green of the hole last played,

 

b.

any practice putting green, or

 

c.

the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round,

 

provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).

 

Note 2: The Committee may, in the conditions of a competition (Rule 33-1), prohibit:

 

(a) practice on or near the putting green of the hole last played, and

 

(b) rolling a ball on the putting green of the hole last played.