Confused by FLO results

[Mathwiz]

I watched some YouTube videos on floing clubs so I decided to purchase a laser from Golfmechanix that attaches to the tip of a shaft. I pulled the adapter from my Ping driver and first did the spine align and then worked from that point to find the flat line oscillation point. I marked the point with a sharpie on masking tape wrapped around the shaft and then installed the adapter so that the flat line would be 90° from the target line. After the epoxy dried with the head installed and before installing the grip I clamped the club and the head did NOT flat line when twanged. I tried to do a dry fit that would allow me to twang the shaft with the adapter and head on the shaft before gluing but could not get it to stay tight enough.

 

What did I do wrong and how can I correct it? I have no issue with pulling the adapter and gluing it back on.

 

I have not hit the club yet but I am disappointed that I wouldn't have the confidence of a successful FLO if I did.

[Matt J]

Be careful. Every time you pull those adapters and reinstall them you change the tip which is the firmest section of the shaft. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Probably twice is the maximum for pulling an adapter and preserving the playing characteristics IMO.

[Bad9]

Be careful. Every time you pull those adapters and reinstall them you change the tip which is the firmest section of the shaft. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Probably twice is the maximum for pulling an adapter and preserving the playing characteristics IMO.

 

change the tip Can you explain what you mean?

[Matt J]

Be careful. Every time you pull those adapters and reinstall them you change the tip which is the firmest section of the shaft. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Probably twice is the maximum for pulling an adapter and preserving the playing characteristics IMO.

 

change the tip Can you explain what you mean?

 

Well, conventional wisdom is to use as little heat as possible and mostly use force with the shaft puller to break the epoxy. But, you have to use enough heat to break the epoxy, and that's the same basic ingredient that's in the resin that makes up the carbon fiber, so every time you heat the tip, pull the adapter and then re-prep the tip, you're changing the outer diameter and weakening i.e. softening the tip.

 

Also, supposedly, I've always heard from "industry guys" that FLO'ing a shaft is more necessary when the wall thickness is more variable rendering a more ovalized less-symmetrical profile. In theory, today's versions of these ultra-high-tech graphite shafts don't need to be FLO'd because they are so symmetrical. Don't know if that's true, but that seems to be the industry speak on the issue. Not enough linear weakness in any dimension to change the kick... I dunno... caveat emptor... decide for yo'self.

[Stuart_G]

Well, conventional wisdom is to use as little heat as possible and mostly use force with the shaft puller to break the epoxy.

 

It's a common misconception that low heat should be used, but it's not conventional wisdom. It may seem counter intuitive to those who only think in terms of temperature and not how heat actually gets transferred, but the graphite tip will actually get hotter with low heat. How much heat the tip gets is more a function of time than temperature. Higher temps will break the epoxy bond much quicker and let less heat get into the tip.

 

I watched some YouTube videos on floing clubs so I decided to purchase a laser from Golfmechanix that attaches to the tip of a shaft. I pulled the adapter from my Ping driver and first did the spine align and then worked from that point to find the flat line oscillation point. I marked the point with a sharpie on masking tape wrapped around the shaft and then installed the adapter so that the flat line would be 90° from the target line. After the epoxy dried with the head installed and before installing the grip I clamped the club and the head did NOT flat line when twanged. I tried to do a dry fit that would allow me to twang the shaft with the adapter and head on the shaft before gluing but could not get it to stay tight enough.

 

What did I do wrong and how can I correct it? I have no issue with pulling the adapter and gluing it back on.

 

I have not hit the club yet but I am disappointed that I wouldn't have the confidence of a successful FLO if I did.

 

It's hard to say for sure - since there are a lot of ideas out there on how it should be done - so it's not clear exactly what you did.

 

But you don't find the spine before you flow, that's backwards. FLO is what should be used to help you find the spine.

 

The type and method (and consistency) of clamping the butt end can be important

 

But you might want to read through these pages:

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines1.php

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines2.php

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines3.php

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines4.php

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines6.php

[Bad9]

Be careful. Every time you pull those adapters and reinstall them you change the tip which is the firmest section of the shaft. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Probably twice is the maximum for pulling an adapter and preserving the playing characteristics IMO.

 

change the tip Can you explain what you mean?

 

Well, conventional wisdom is to use as little heat as possible and mostly use force with the shaft puller to break the epoxy. But, you have to use enough heat to break the epoxy, and that's the same basic ingredient that's in the resin that makes up the carbon fiber, so every time you heat the tip, pull the adapter and then re-prep the tip, you're changing the outer diameter and weakening i.e. softening the tip.

 

Also, supposedly, I've always heard from "industry guys" that FLO'ing a shaft is more necessary when the wall thickness is more variable rendering a more ovalized less-symmetrical profile. In theory, today's versions of these ultra-high-tech graphite shafts don't need to be FLO'd because they are so symmetrical. Don't know if that's true, but that seems to be the industry speak on the issue. Not enough linear weakness in any dimension to change the kick... I dunno... caveat emptor... decide for yo'self.

 

Having worked on clubs for 30yrs and reusing some shafts 5-6 times or more I would disagree with you. I have always used a propane torch and rarely use more than 10 seconds of heat. If you actually soften the tip you have ruined the shaft and shouldn't be reusing it at all. If you re-prep the shaft and reduce the diameter I would suggest you are being too aggressive with your tip prep. Generally on pulled shafts I scrape the residue off with a utility knife and ensure that I am not biting into the shaft.

[Matt J]

Be careful. Every time you pull those adapters and reinstall them you change the tip which is the firmest section of the shaft. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Probably twice is the maximum for pulling an adapter and preserving the playing characteristics IMO.

 

change the tip Can you explain what you mean?

 

Well, conventional wisdom is to use as little heat as possible and mostly use force with the shaft puller to break the epoxy. But, you have to use enough heat to break the epoxy, and that's the same basic ingredient that's in the resin that makes up the carbon fiber, so every time you heat the tip, pull the adapter and then re-prep the tip, you're changing the outer diameter and weakening i.e. softening the tip.

 

Also, supposedly, I've always heard from "industry guys" that FLO'ing a shaft is more necessary when the wall thickness is more variable rendering a more ovalized less-symmetrical profile. In theory, today's versions of these ultra-high-tech graphite shafts don't need to be FLO'd because they are so symmetrical. Don't know if that's true, but that seems to be the industry speak on the issue. Not enough linear weakness in any dimension to change the kick... I dunno... caveat emptor... decide for yo'self.

 

Having worked on clubs for 30yrs and reusing some shafts 5-6 times or more I would disagree with you. I have always used a propane torch and rarely use more than 10 seconds of heat. If you actually soften the tip you have ruined the shaft and shouldn't be reusing it at all. If you re-prep the shaft and reduce the diameter I would suggest you are being too aggressive with your tip prep. Generally on pulled shafts I scrape the residue off with a utility knife and ensure that I am not biting into the shaft.

 

Agree to disagree. Granted that the first few adapters I pulled I blundered around a little with it, but I think I'm pretty adept now. I seem to use a pretty similar method to what you and Stuart have both mentioned. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think you inevitably "change" the tip after several pulls. I've had guys who build clubs for tour pros agree with me. Perhaps the faster you swing, the stiffer the shaft, the more noticeable? I've certainly had shafts that I felt "lost their feel" - whether that was from old age, too many pulls, or my imagination would be hard to prove. But, I was glad to hear I'm not alone when talking with a guy I have a lot of respect for as far as building clubs.

[Nessism]

Be careful. Every time you pull those adapters and reinstall them you change the tip which is the firmest section of the shaft. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Probably twice is the maximum for pulling an adapter and preserving the playing characteristics IMO.

 

change the tip Can you explain what you mean?

 

Well, conventional wisdom is to use as little heat as possible and mostly use force with the shaft puller to break the epoxy. But, you have to use enough heat to break the epoxy, and that's the same basic ingredient that's in the resin that makes up the carbon fiber, so every time you heat the tip, pull the adapter and then re-prep the tip, you're changing the outer diameter and weakening i.e. softening the tip.

 

Also, supposedly, I've always heard from "industry guys" that FLO'ing a shaft is more necessary when the wall thickness is more variable rendering a more ovalized less-symmetrical profile. In theory, today's versions of these ultra-high-tech graphite shafts don't need to be FLO'd because they are so symmetrical. Don't know if that's true, but that seems to be the industry speak on the issue. Not enough linear weakness in any dimension to change the kick... I dunno... caveat emptor... decide for yo'self.

 

Having worked on clubs for 30yrs and reusing some shafts 5-6 times or more I would disagree with you. I have always used a propane torch and rarely use more than 10 seconds of heat. If you actually soften the tip you have ruined the shaft and shouldn't be reusing it at all. If you re-prep the shaft and reduce the diameter I would suggest you are being too aggressive with your tip prep. Generally on pulled shafts I scrape the residue off with a utility knife and ensure that I am not biting into the shaft.

 

Agree to disagree. Granted that the first few adapters I pulled I blundered around a little with it, but I think I'm pretty adept now. I seem to use a pretty similar method to what you and Stuart have both mentioned. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think you inevitably "change" the tip after several pulls. I've had guys who build clubs for tour pros agree with me. Perhaps the faster you swing, the stiffer the shaft, the more noticeable? I've certainly had shafts that I felt "lost their feel" - whether that was from old age, too many pulls, or my imagination would be hard to prove. But, I was glad to hear I'm not alone when talking with a guy I have a lot of respect for as far as building clubs.

 

Do you use a torch to pull shafts or a heat gun? If you use a torch and heat for 10 seconds or less the shaft won't get hot enough to damage the resin. A heat gun is completely different though. It takes 10x as much time and the shaft heats up greatly.

[Matt J]

I use a propane torch.

 

I'm sure we could all could go on-and-on with anecdotal examples from our own club building experience, but I don't know if we'd ever prove anything. My 2 cents is that i feel like I get away with 2 pretty easily, but somewhere between 3 and 5 I can feel the difference. That doesn't happen much anymore as I don't experiment with that many different heads, but when I first started playing around I had a bunch of heads that were at different swing weights, and I didn't think it hurt the shaft any to pull the adapters, but eventually some of them felt soft and dead. I don't think it takes much compromise to that tip section especially in an X Stiff shaft or stiffer. Perhaps even more so in the lighter weights. The walls aren't really that thick and the outer wraps supposedly play a big role in the flex profiles.

[Mathwiz]

I used to use a heat gun but I read a post from Nessism a while back about quicker heat from a torch so I bought a mini butane torch. I used it for the first time when I pulled the Ping adapter. I had the shaft in a shaft puller with pressure on it from a bolt screwed into the end and it only took about 6-8 seconds for it to give way. I was somewhat amazed considering the Ping reputation for their proprietary epoxy that we know is legendary tough. Anyway, it was a quick pull with what I believe to be very little effect on the shaft tip. Now if I can figure out how to get a flat line oscillation so that when I put the head on it will still cycle in a straight line I will be a happy camper.

 

Thanks again Nessism for the tip on the fast heat.

[wkuo3]

I had a few shafts that been pulled at least for all the fingers on my two hands ( yes, I still have 10 ).

 

No problem whatsoever, no discoloring, no hardening, no aging of the graphite bonding...... I did, toast a shaft or two when I first learn to pull shafts.

The low price line shafts had a different bonding , much easier to over heat.

Also a word of caution, With today's thin wall, light weight graphite shafts, I'm certain it won't be as durable as one that has more material on the tip.

 

Had also found out some epoxy mixture will demand a higher temperature for breaking down the bonding than others. Deep bore hosel had always been the toughest for me to pull a shaft from. Patience was needed, lots of it.

[Stuart_G]

Now if I can figure out how to get a flat line oscillation so that when I put the head on it will still cycle in a straight line I will be a happy camper.

 

Forget about the tip. Even if it did change (which I sincerely doubt) it wouldn't have that big of an impact on the FLO. I think the other end is more likely the issue. What are you using for a clamp? One actually designed for freq measurement or one of the simple ones designed for holding a shaft while you pull/reinstall the grip?

[wkuo3]

Stuart G. brought up a very important point. The base for the FLO must be firmly in place. The base that holds the vice which holds the shaft must be fixed. No good, If it wobbles when you wiggle it with hands.

The grip is tapered, not going to have a secured seating in the vice which has parallel jaws. I would wrap some material on the tapered end to have a good secured hold in the vice ( or grip clamp). Careful not to crush the shaft when you tighten the vice.

 

To secure the head in the adapter. I gave it a wrap of Saran Wrap or any kind of food wrap . depending on the fit, sometimes a thin strip of the wrap instead of covering around the whole tip would secure the head to the adapter temporarily. You want the head stable inside the adapter but not lock tight. There is no set way of achieving a goal such as FLO, just watch out for the basic requirements to get the more accurate result.

[Mathwiz]

I used a vise with the hard type of plastic clamps that are NOT tapered. It looked like the length of the shaft that was clamped was parallel. The vise is bolted to a heavy duty workbench. The setup is NOT one that is made exclusively for clamping shafts so that may be the issue even though I feel it was all very secure. I guess I need to spend some more money on a (made for) clamp. Thanks guys.