Putting with flag in (MERGED)

[davep043]

From The PINHIGH27

Re: Can you answer the question? You're telling me on multiple putts the ball hit the flag and jumped out of the hole?

 

 

Yes. In our experiment we proved the flag stick "influenced" the number of makes.

You didn't exactly answer his question. With the stick in, how many putts hit the hole, how many of those went in/out, and how far away did they end up? Same for the ones with the stick out. Of the putts that missed the hole, how far away did they end up, separated by pin in and out. Did you, intentionally or not, putt the ball firmer with the pin in? Did any difference in speed change your read, or your approach, and could that influence the make percentage? My impression was that you had an opinion before you did your experiment, and that could have influenced your approach to each putt.

 

 

Although it's easy and convenient to think the flag stick would have zero influence on putts made or missed from 8 feet, the test results from my experiment tell a vastly different story. We found, after making the effort to test the assumption, the flag stick served as a hindrance to several correctly struck putts resulting in fewer “made putts” than under the same circumstances and conditions without a flag stick in the hole. Using 8-10 putts as the control group to gauge our speed, line and stroke further supports the argument that leaving the flag in serves as an unnecessary obstacle, and negatively impacts putts made. The belief that the flag stick has no influence on putts made is what scientists and professionals would label as generally as not a good idea.

I think that to accept the conclusions of a study in which the data is not made available for review is also not a good idea. I'm sure you did your best, but you still haven't provided the data. In my opinion, the variability of human putting is a significant factor, its just too hard to reproduce a truly consistent line and speed, and line and speed will definitely influence the results. Its impossible to remove that human variability from the scatter in the resulting data.

 

Ideally, you could do experiments using something like the Perfect Putter. http://theperfectput...php/description

With a device like that, you can set it up close to the hole, and vary the location of the ball (dead center, 0.5 inch from center, 1, 1.5, 2 inches), and vary the speed (dead weight, 1 foot past, 3 feet, 5,10), and really get meaningful results. Now I'm not going to spend a few hundred bucks for something like that, but I'm sure a number of people and/or organizations will.

 

 

How about this?

 

What if we were to create a ramp device (similar to a Stimpmeter, only at a steeper angle) and roll 20 balls at a distance of 8-feet, at the same assertive pace, on the same line, with the same brand of ball - you're asserting all 20 would go in?

 

I disagree. The results would be even more staggering, in regard to the number of "missed putts."

I've asserted nothing. I don't know what would happen. But I wouldn't set up the "experiment" that way.

 

From 8 feet, the natural variability of the green itself would cause some scatter. A stimpmeter, with a straight incline and a sudden change in direction when the ball hits the green, will cause some bounce, more variability. That's why I picked the Perfect Putter thing, its designed to allow a smooth roll. I'd set it up next to the hole, maybe a foot away, so minimize the variability of the green surface. You can mark the incline, to get consistent speed. It doesn't matter how far back you start, really, the actual speed of the ball as it hits the pin (or cup) is what matters. And by setting the thing close to the hole, you can get pretty good control over where the ball hits the pin (or cup). So you end up with 3 primary variables: ball speed, location, and pin in or out. And the results from each combination are two-fold: make percentage, and distance on misses.

 

What I think you'd find is that for perfect speed, the ball just dripping into the hole, there would be no difference between the pin in and pin out. As speed increases, you'd get more variability in results. The pin might bounce a few out, or it might capture a few that would otherwise lip out. At a specific entry location and speed, a ball that hits the pin and misses will finish closer, on balance, than a putt that lips out without the pin there. The greater the ball speed, the bigger that difference.

 

And if you watch the video that rawdog posted, you'll see a whole lot of putts that went in while the flagstick remained in the hole.

[rawdog]

I've asserted nothing. I don't know what would happen. But I wouldn't set up the "experiment" that way.

 

From 8 feet, the natural variability of the green itself would cause some scatter. A stimpmeter, with a straight incline and a sudden change in direction when the ball hits the green, will cause some bounce, more variability. That's why I picked the Perfect Putter thing, its designed to allow a smooth roll. I'd set it up next to the hole, maybe a foot away, so minimize the variability of the green surface. You can mark the incline, to get consistent speed. It doesn't matter how far back you start, really, the actual speed of the ball as it hits the pin (or cup) is what matters. And by setting the thing close to the hole, you can get pretty good control over where the ball hits the pin (or cup). So you end up with 3 primary variables: ball speed, location, and pin in or out. And the results from each combination are two-fold: make percentage, and distance on misses.

 

What I think you'd find is that for perfect speed, the ball just dripping into the hole, there would be no difference between the pin in and pin out. As speed increases, you'd get more variability in results. The pin might bounce a few out, or it might capture a few that would otherwise lip out. At a specific entry location and speed, a ball that hits the pin and misses will finish closer, on balance, than a putt that lips out without the pin there. The greater the ball speed, the bigger that difference.

 

And if you watch the video that rawdog posted, you'll see a whole lot of putts that went in while the flagstick remained in the hole.

 

Excellent post. I think the bolded summarizes down to this:

 

"The flagstick slows the ball by a greater factor than it decreases the time the ball spends suspended over the hole."

 

Which is to say, while it "gets in the way," it slows the ball by more than enough to compensate for this.

 

Said another way, any ball traveling fast enough to hit the stick so hard that it bounces out had next to no chance of falling into the hole anyway.

[ebrasmus21]

I've asserted nothing. I don't know what would happen. But I wouldn't set up the "experiment" that way.

 

From 8 feet, the natural variability of the green itself would cause some scatter. A stimpmeter, with a straight incline and a sudden change in direction when the ball hits the green, will cause some bounce, more variability. That's why I picked the Perfect Putter thing, its designed to allow a smooth roll. I'd set it up next to the hole, maybe a foot away, so minimize the variability of the green surface. You can mark the incline, to get consistent speed. It doesn't matter how far back you start, really, the actual speed of the ball as it hits the pin (or cup) is what matters. And by setting the thing close to the hole, you can get pretty good control over where the ball hits the pin (or cup). So you end up with 3 primary variables: ball speed, location, and pin in or out. And the results from each combination are two-fold: make percentage, and distance on misses.

 

What I think you'd find is that for perfect speed, the ball just dripping into the hole, there would be no difference between the pin in and pin out. As speed increases, you'd get more variability in results. The pin might bounce a few out, or it might capture a few that would otherwise lip out. At a specific entry location and speed, a ball that hits the pin and misses will finish closer, on balance, than a putt that lips out without the pin there. The greater the ball speed, the bigger that difference.

 

And if you watch the video that rawdog posted, you'll see a whole lot of putts that went in while the flagstick remained in the hole.

 

Excellent post. I think the bolded summarizes down to this:

 

"The flagstick slows the ball by a greater factor than it decreases the time the ball spends suspended over the hole."

 

Which is to say, while it "gets in the way," it slows the ball by more than enough to compensate for this.

 

Said another way, any ball traveling fast enough to hit the stick so hard that it bounces out had next to no chance of falling into the hole anyway.

 

I'm just impressed that dude made so many putts in a row.

[davep043]

 

I'm just impressed that dude made so many putts in a row.

I know Mike, he's a good player. And I'm pretty sure he didn't edit out any misses, he's a straight shooter in more ways than one.

[rawdog]

I'm just impressed that dude made so many putts in a row.

I know Mike, he's a good player. And I'm pretty sure he didn't edit out any misses, he's a straight shooter in more ways than one.

 

I'd love to see 18/20 from 8 feet.

[davep043]

I'm just impressed that dude made so many putts in a row.

I know Mike, he's a good player. And I'm pretty sure he didn't edit out any misses, he's a straight shooter in more ways than one.

 

I'd love to see 18/20 from 8 feet.

I agree, pin in or out, that's damn good. Especially when you consider that the number used for strokes gained on the PGA tour is 50%, although it does become less difficult when you're hitting the same putt over and over.

[pinhigh27]

Still want to see the video or hear confirmation of multiple putts bouncing out of hole from 8 feet. Missing a putt is a different thing than missing because the ball bounced off flag out of hole. Can't believe it is this hard to get an answer

 

That video didn't really show anything, none of those putts that went in would have missed without the flag. You need a video of someone hitting it hard

[davep043]

Still want to see the video or hear confirmation of multiple putts bouncing out of hole from 8 feet. Missing a putt is a different thing than missing because the ball bounced off flag out of hole. Can't believe it is this hard to get an answer

 

That video didn't really show anything, none of those putts that went in would have missed without the flag. You need a video of someone hitting it hard

I think you're right about the video. I know, and the captions say it, that he was trying to hit the putts harder than normal, but it didn't look to me like any would have been more than 2 or 3 feet past. Its not easy to intentionally hit a putt at what you know to be the "wrong speed".

And I agree about the "study" that @Ferguson did, he still hasn't provided any of the details we've asked for.

[rawdog]

Still want to see the video or hear confirmation of multiple putts bouncing out of hole from 8 feet. Missing a putt is a different thing than missing because the ball bounced off flag out of hole. Can't believe it is this hard to get an answer

 

That video didn't really show anything, none of those putts that went in would have missed without the flag. You need a video of someone hitting it hard

I think you're right about the video. I know, and the captions say it, that he was trying to hit the putts harder than normal, but it didn't look to me like any would have been more than 2 or 3 feet past. Its not easy to intentionally hit a putt at what you know to be the "wrong speed".

And I agree about the "study" that @Ferguson did, he still hasn't provided any of the details we've asked for.

 

A couple were pretty speedy, but yeah, they were not rocketing at the stick. It's surprisingly hard to find youtube videos of guys testing the new rule.

 

Regardless, were Ferg and his kid trying to rocket balls off the stick?

 

FWIW, below are the capture widths for a golf hole depending on how many feet past the ball would roll. If he and his son were trying to hammer putts 5' past the hole, you have a 0.5" wide spot to hit for the putt to drop. Even at 3' past, the width is 1.4". I guess it's possible to hit a 1.4" wide spot 18/20 times from 8 feet, but it seems unlikely. And hitting a 0.5" wide spot 18/20? Highly unlikely.

 

The point is, and the video shows it, people aren't hitting putts anywhere near hard enough for the flagstick to make anything more than a visual difference. It was noted in the links I shared that even at 20' past the hole, the flagstick was capable of stopping the ball in the hole.

 

Capture Speed and Relative Hole Size:

 

Feet past | Hole Size

 

0' | 4.25"

.5' | 3.8"

1' | 2.6"

2' | 1.9"

3' | 1.4"

4' | 0.9"

5' | 0.5"

[davep043]

A couple were pretty speedy, but yeah, they were not rocketing at the stick. It's surprisingly hard to find youtube videos of guys testing the new rule.

 

This isn't aimed at the new rule, specifically, but it does show the potential difference caused by different flagsticks. I'd like to have seen this without any flagstick. If the Pelzmeter actually rolls the ball as fast as the Stimpmeter, those balls were going to be 8 or 10 feet past the hole, no chance of actually staying in, yet the skinny stick captured them.

[rawdog]

A couple were pretty speedy, but yeah, they were not rocketing at the stick. It's surprisingly hard to find youtube videos of guys testing the new rule.

 

This isn't aimed at the new rule, specifically, but it does show the potential difference caused by different flagsticks. I'd like to have seen this without any flagstick. If the Pelzmeter actually rolls the ball as fast as the Stimpmeter, those balls were going to be 8 or 10 feet past the hole, no chance of actually staying in, yet the skinny stick captured them.

 

That is delightful and shows exactly what Bryson was talking about with the metal US Open flagsticks.

[bladehunter]

So...

 

lets assume for a moment that the Pin is a big help as has been said here.. I ask this.

 

Is this a good move for the game ? to make putting a near non factor? If the pin helps as is said we will see guy ramming putts in from all over... The 'die putter" will die , and another portion of the games soul with him/her...

 

When does this slippery slope claim the whole game ? How long before the breakfast ball, or 1 mulligan a side is included in the rule book?

 

Please dont tell me that " it was once ok to putt with the flag in"... Im aware..But i also know they didnt use spaceships on a stick to putt with and nobody mentioned making more before the rule change. Its either easier to putt with it in or it isnt .. the fact that it was once OK has zero to do with the current argument .

 

What do you think .. will it be easier or not? and when is easier going to be too much ?

[pinhigh27]

Why would everyone ram it? If you miss on fast greens ramming it you are 20+ feet away. It will be marginally easier. The die putter still has a tap in when they miss. The person who rams it has a long putt back.

 

To say this would make putting a non factor is hilarious and inaccurate

 

Its also pretty hard to judge break when ramming it because everyone is so used to having proper speed. So anyone attempting to ram it would probably have a lot of trouble with finding proper lines, at least initially.

[pinhigh27]

I think it will speed up play at amateur level. I think it will be neutral to negative at pro level.

 

Next concept to speed up play would be making all out of bounds lateral hazard

[bladehunter]

Why would everyone ram it? If you miss on fast greens ramming it you are 20+ feet away. It will be marginally easier. The die putter still has a tap in when they miss. The person who rams it has a long putt back.

 

To say this would make putting a non factor is hilarious and inaccurate

 

Its also pretty hard to judge break when ramming it because everyone is so used to having proper speed. So anyone attempting to ram it would probably have a lot of trouble with finding proper lines, at least initially.

 

 

because its easier of course

[bladehunter]

I think it will speed up play at amateur level. I think it will be neutral to negative at pro level.

 

Next concept to speed up play would be making all out of bounds lateral hazard

 

how will it speed it up? in out in out in ?? cant be faster.

 

and most who dont keep a cap play OB as a free drop anyway .. wont make any difference...

 

 

would you be ok with bumpers for pro bowlers ? How about trolling nets for big game fish records?

[davep043]

So...

 

lets assume for a moment that the Pin is a big help as has been said here.. I ask this.

 

Is this a good move for the game ? to make putting a near non factor? If the pin helps as is said we will see guy ramming putts in from all over... The 'die putter" will die , and another portion of the games soul with him/her...

 

When does this slippery slope claim the whole game ? How long before the breakfast ball, or 1 mulligan a side is included in the rule book?

 

Please dont tell me that " it was once ok to putt with the flag in"... Im aware..But i also know they didnt use spaceships on a stick to putt with and nobody mentioned making more before the rule change. Its either easier to putt with it in or it isnt .. the fact that it was once OK has zero to do with the current argument .

 

What do you think .. will it be easier or not? and when is easier going to be too much ?

I don't like the rule, it seemed unnecessary to me, but I don't believe it will make a huge difference in the skills required. As @pinhigh27 said, an attempt to ram it in will run 5 or 10 feet past the pin, so its possible it will INCREASE the number of putts some people take. A "dead weight" putt will go in regardless of whether the pin is in or out, AND will be close if its missed, so speed control will remain a valuable skill.

My best guess, we'll see a number of players trying to ram putts in, who will then realize that they actually hit the pin so rarely that they're costing themselves strokes. The pendulum will then swing back towards where we are now, with players trying to stop every putt at or just past the hole. The flagstick WILL make a difference on a small number of putts, but I don't believe it makes things significantly easier. We golfers just don't hit that many putts that hit the hole from more than 8 or 10 feet.

[bladehunter]

So...

 

lets assume for a moment that the Pin is a big help as has been said here.. I ask this.

 

Is this a good move for the game ? to make putting a near non factor? If the pin helps as is said we will see guy ramming putts in from all over... The 'die putter" will die , and another portion of the games soul with him/her...

 

When does this slippery slope claim the whole game ? How long before the breakfast ball, or 1 mulligan a side is included in the rule book?

 

Please dont tell me that " it was once ok to putt with the flag in"... Im aware..But i also know they didnt use spaceships on a stick to putt with and nobody mentioned making more before the rule change. Its either easier to putt with it in or it isnt .. the fact that it was once OK has zero to do with the current argument .

 

What do you think .. will it be easier or not? and when is easier going to be too much ?

I don't like the rule, it seemed unnecessary to me, but I don't believe it will make a huge difference in the skills required. As @pinhigh27 said, an attempt to ram it in will run 5 or 10 feet past the pin, so its possible it will INCREASE the number of putts some people take. A "dead weight" putt will go in regardless of whether the pin is in or out, AND will be close if its missed, so speed control will remain a valuable skill.

My best guess, we'll see a number of players trying to ram putts in, who will then realize that they actually hit the pin so rarely that they're costing themselves strokes. The pendulum will then swing back towards where we are now, with players trying to stop every putt at or just past the hole. The flagstick WILL make a difference on a small number of putts, but I don't believe it makes things significantly easier. We golfers just don't hit that many putts that hit the hole from more than 8 or 10 feet.

 

I agree with this , and its why i dont think that putting with it in is any help at all... Im for it being out 100%

[davep043]

I don't like the rule, it seemed unnecessary to me, but I don't believe it will make a huge difference in the skills required. As @pinhigh27 said, an attempt to ram it in will run 5 or 10 feet past the pin, so its possible it will INCREASE the number of putts some people take. A "dead weight" putt will go in regardless of whether the pin is in or out, AND will be close if its missed, so speed control will remain a valuable skill.

My best guess, we'll see a number of players trying to ram putts in, who will then realize that they actually hit the pin so rarely that they're costing themselves strokes. The pendulum will then swing back towards where we are now, with players trying to stop every putt at or just past the hole. The flagstick WILL make a difference on a small number of putts, but I don't believe it makes things significantly easier. We golfers just don't hit that many putts that hit the hole from more than 8 or 10 feet.

 

I agree with this , and its why i dont think that putting with it in is any help at all... Im for it being out 100%

I believe it has the potential to help the putts that are going well past, and that happen to hit the hole. While its never my intention to hit a putt that hard, it does happen, and more often with longer putts. So I'll leave it in for longer putts, and take it out when I'm closer. My wild-a** guess, it might help me out once in every 5 to 10 rounds, maybe even less.

[rawdog]

So...

 

lets assume for a moment that the Pin is a big help as has been said here.. I ask this.

 

Is this a good move for the game ? to make putting a near non factor? If the pin helps as is said we will see guy ramming putts in from all over... The 'die putter" will die , and another portion of the games soul with him/her...

 

When does this slippery slope claim the whole game ? How long before the breakfast ball, or 1 mulligan a side is included in the rule book?

 

Please dont tell me that " it was once ok to putt with the flag in"... Im aware..But i also know they didnt use spaceships on a stick to putt with and nobody mentioned making more before the rule change. Its either easier to putt with it in or it isnt .. the fact that it was once OK has zero to do with the current argument .

 

What do you think .. will it be easier or not? and when is easier going to be too much ?

 

I'm ignoring your "slippery slope" rant for now... a bit over the top :D

 

As pinhigh said, there still is the risk of missing when you ram, so I doubt people will be ramming from "all over." At a certain distance, a player isn't going to have confidence to hit the hole (capture width if we want to be technical).

 

The hole still has it's widest capture width when you choose the die the ball in the hole (4.25"), and as you hit putts firmer and firmer, that width decreases (see my chart above).

 

Now, the issue with dying the ball in the hole is that you risk leaving some putts short. But the solution to that (getting ALL putts to the hole) inevitably means you will hit some putts too hard, which shrinks the capture width.

 

What keeping the flagstick in does is it makes the capture width larger at higher speed. But you still have to hit a a relatively small target.

 

On a putt traveling 3.5 feet past the hole and no flagstick, you have to hit a 1.2" wide spot. With the flag in, you have to hit a spot that's about 1.8".

 

To put that in perspective, with no stick in, a ball hit 2' past the hole has to hit a 1.9" wide spot.

 

So having the stick in enables you to get more putts to the hole by hitting them harder. Essentially your "scatter plot" of outcomes can shift so that more fall in the hole. I think the gains will come from being able to reduce the number of putts that come up short.

 

The firmer putts that miss the hole will suck, but in the long run, I think this strategy will yield good results.

[rawdog]

I don't like the rule, it seemed unnecessary to me, but I don't believe it will make a huge difference in the skills required. As @pinhigh27 said, an attempt to ram it in will run 5 or 10 feet past the pin, so its possible it will INCREASE the number of putts some people take. A "dead weight" putt will go in regardless of whether the pin is in or out, AND will be close if its missed, so speed control will remain a valuable skill.

My best guess, we'll see a number of players trying to ram putts in, who will then realize that they actually hit the pin so rarely that they're costing themselves strokes. The pendulum will then swing back towards where we are now, with players trying to stop every putt at or just past the hole. The flagstick WILL make a difference on a small number of putts, but I don't believe it makes things significantly easier. We golfers just don't hit that many putts that hit the hole from more than 8 or 10 feet.

 

I agree with this , and its why i dont think that putting with it in is any help at all... Im for it being out 100%

I believe it has the potential to help the putts that are going well past, and that happen to hit the hole. While its never my intention to hit a putt that hard, it does happen, and more often with longer putts. So I'll leave it in for longer putts, and take it out when I'm closer. My wild-a** guess, it might help me out once in every 5 to 10 rounds, maybe even less.

 

If you don't change how hard you hit your putts, you probably won't see any noticeable difference. It will make zero difference on putts that would've gone less than 2 feet past the hole. For putts faster than that, the ball would've had to enter in the area of extra capture width that the flagstick provides.

 

For example, flagstick out and cruising 3.5' by. Your ball would have to hit a 1.2" wide spot. With the flagstick in, you get an extra .3" left and right of that spot.

 

You'll probably never be able to tell if your ball rolled over that .3" wide spot - ie, the advantage given to you by the flagstick.

 

See my other post, but to me, I think the benefit will come from a combination of extra capture width I mentioned above, but also the ability to hit ALL putts harder, meaning fewer putts left short.

[davep043]

If you don't change how hard you hit your putts, you probably won't see any noticeable difference. It will make zero difference on putts that would've gone less than 2 feet past the hole. For putts faster than that, the ball would've had to enter in the area of extra capture width that the flagstick provides.

 

For example, flagstick out and cruising 3.5' by. Your ball would have to hit a 1.2" wide spot. With the flagstick in, you get an extra .3" left and right of that spot.

 

You'll probably never be able to tell if your ball rolled over that .3" wide spot - ie, the advantage given to you by the flagstick.

 

See my other post, but to me, I think the benefit will come from a combination of extra capture width I mentioned above, but also the ability to hit ALL putts harder, meaning fewer putts left short.

I understand the capture zone is increased for a specific speed, by a pretty small amount. I also understand that you'll be able to hit the ball a little firmer, in theory, but that means more of the putts I miss will roll further past. To me that translates into more 4 and 5-footers, and more missed comeback putts. Will the slight increase in captures for putts that do hit the hole overcome the increase in 3-putts if I miss the hole? I don't know.

[rawdog]

If you don't change how hard you hit your putts, you probably won't see any noticeable difference. It will make zero difference on putts that would've gone less than 2 feet past the hole. For putts faster than that, the ball would've had to enter in the area of extra capture width that the flagstick provides.

 

For example, flagstick out and cruising 3.5' by. Your ball would have to hit a 1.2" wide spot. With the flagstick in, you get an extra .3" left and right of that spot.

 

You'll probably never be able to tell if your ball rolled over that .3" wide spot - ie, the advantage given to you by the flagstick.

 

See my other post, but to me, I think the benefit will come from a combination of extra capture width I mentioned above, but also the ability to hit ALL putts harder, meaning fewer putts left short.

I understand the capture zone is increased for a specific speed, by a pretty small amount. I also understand that you'll be able to hit the ball a little firmer, in theory, but that means more of the putts I miss will roll further past. To me that translates into more 4 and 5-footers, and more missed comeback putts. Will the slight increase in captures for putts that do hit the hole overcome the increase in 3-putts if I miss the hole? I don't know.

 

And that's an excellent point. The bolded basically boils down the tradeoffs for this type of strategy. There is no free lunch here. But I have been playing around with face-on and sidesaddle putting, which helps me get the ball to the hole and eliminate coming up short. The flagstick also gives me a better visual aid when I do look at the hole during my stroke. It's going to be really wild and beneficial. But I'll also be expecting a lot of 3-4 foot leaves.

 

Obviously there will be less penalty for uphill misses than downhill, yada yada. There will be nuances. It won't be easy to tease out the flagstick effect, and even with Bryson, year over year putting statistics don't tell much because putting performance is not highly repeatable. https://golfanalytics.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/repeatability-of-golf-performance-by-shot-type/

 

It may take years to see how this plays out.

 

But it's pretty certain that it won't make putting harder :D

[pinhigh27]

Why would everyone ram it? If you miss on fast greens ramming it you are 20+ feet away. It will be marginally easier. The die putter still has a tap in when they miss. The person who rams it has a long putt back.

 

To say this would make putting a non factor is hilarious and inaccurate

 

Its also pretty hard to judge break when ramming it because everyone is so used to having proper speed. So anyone attempting to ram it would probably have a lot of trouble with finding proper lines, at least initially.

 

 

because its easier of course

 

? Way to address anything I said.

 

I think it will speed up play at amateur level. I think it will be neutral to negative at pro level.

 

Next concept to speed up play would be making all out of bounds lateral hazard

 

how will it speed it up? in out in out in ?? cant be faster.

 

and most who dont keep a cap play OB as a free drop anyway .. wont make any difference...

 

 

would you be ok with bumpers for pro bowlers ? How about trolling nets for big game fish records?

 

No amateur except maybe elites and posers are gonna pull the flag

[rawdog]

slow day at work so i made some art. how will the ball fit in the hole if we leave the flagstick in?

 

Seriously, though, it is interesting to note how narrow the hole gets even when putting at a 2' past the hole speed.

[Popeye64]

The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.

Am I wrong,, but didnt the game start off in the early days with the flag left in???

[Popeye64]

I play a decent amount of golf as a single and have been leaving the flag in for the last few years. Later in the season now I routinely run into a few old timers that I hook up with. On most every hole I have a full iron into the hole and I'm on in regulation. They both struggle a little and usually have some clean up chipping around the green so more times than not I'm furthest from the hole. Since we all know about the upcoming rule and I get to the green I will roll my putt up to the hole with the flag still in. I found that its saving quite a bit of time on the green.

 

Usually the guy closest to the flag after marking his ball pulls the flag. He is also usually the last guy who chipped. So while waiting behind my ball for him to retrieve his putter and grab the flag some time has gone by. Not a lot but enough to note. So.. I have rolled my putt and walked up to tapp in and pull the flag,,, instead of waiting for him to do his thing. It makes for a quicker round in the long run and is true ready golf.

 

I'm glad the rule has changed.

[davep043]

The guys I play with are traditionalists. I'm sure, at least a couple of them, the flag will be out of the hole. I plan on putting with the stick in.

Am I wrong,, but didnt the game start off in the early days with the flag left in???

http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html

The first time this website suggests that the flagstick had to be removed was 1882.

[bladehunter]

Why would everyone ram it? If you miss on fast greens ramming it you are 20+ feet away. It will be marginally easier. The die putter still has a tap in when they miss. The person who rams it has a long putt back.

 

To say this would make putting a non factor is hilarious and inaccurate

 

Its also pretty hard to judge break when ramming it because everyone is so used to having proper speed. So anyone attempting to ram it would probably have a lot of trouble with finding proper lines, at least initially.

 

 

because its easier of course

 

? Way to address anything I said.

 

I think it will speed up play at amateur level. I think it will be neutral to negative at pro level.

 

Next concept to speed up play would be making all out of bounds lateral hazard

 

how will it speed it up? in out in out in ?? cant be faster.

 

and most who dont keep a cap play OB as a free drop anyway .. wont make any difference...

 

 

would you be ok with bumpers for pro bowlers ? How about trolling nets for big game fish records?

 

No amateur except maybe elites and posers are gonna pull the flag

 

There. Was that so hard ?

 

 

I’ve been told the same thing in person by a few corner cutters I’m around. Pretty much said same to me. The attitude is that I’d be wrong for holding the group up wanting it out. That’s exactly what I was waiting for someone else to say.

 

Completely validating my argument that it is not good for the game. People who want to cut corners already have the right to leave it in , not play ob as ob. Etc. Now the rules makers have shoved those lax opinions down the rest of our throats.

 

I don’t mean anything personal there. Just that it’s veiled as a choice. And is part of that slippery slope.

[bladehunter]

So...

 

lets assume for a moment that the Pin is a big help as has been said here.. I ask this.

 

Is this a good move for the game ? to make putting a near non factor? If the pin helps as is said we will see guy ramming putts in from all over... The 'die putter" will die , and another portion of the games soul with him/her...

 

When does this slippery slope claim the whole game ? How long before the breakfast ball, or 1 mulligan a side is included in the rule book?

 

Please dont tell me that " it was once ok to putt with the flag in"... Im aware..But i also know they didnt use spaceships on a stick to putt with and nobody mentioned making more before the rule change. Its either easier to putt with it in or it isnt .. the fact that it was once OK has zero to do with the current argument .

 

What do you think .. will it be easier or not? and when is easier going to be too much ?

 

I'm ignoring your "slippery slope" rant for now... a bit over the top :D

 

As pinhigh said, there still is the risk of missing when you ram, so I doubt people will be ramming from "all over." At a certain distance, a player isn't going to have confidence to hit the hole (capture width if we want to be technical).

 

The hole still has it's widest capture width when you choose the die the ball in the hole (4.25"), and as you hit putts firmer and firmer, that width decreases (see my chart above).

 

Now, the issue with dying the ball in the hole is that you risk leaving some putts short. But the solution to that (getting ALL putts to the hole) inevitably means you will hit some putts too hard, which shrinks the capture width.

 

What keeping the flagstick in does is it makes the capture width larger at higher speed. But you still have to hit a a relatively small target.

 

On a putt traveling 3.5 feet past the hole and no flagstick, you have to hit a 1.2" wide spot. With the flag in, you have to hit a spot that's about 1.8".

 

To put that in perspective, with no stick in, a ball hit 2' past the hole has to hit a 1.9" wide spot.

 

So having the stick in enables you to get more putts to the hole by hitting them harder. Essentially your "scatter plot" of outcomes can shift so that more fall in the hole. I think the gains will come from being able to reduce the number of putts that come up short.

 

The firmer putts that miss the hole will suck, but in the long run, I think this strategy will yield good results.

 

Lol. Sure. My slippery slope is a hyperbole riddled soap box. But doesn’t mean it doesn’t hold some merit.