Thoughts on why people are walking away from the game...

[marmooskapaul]

One positive reason would be family - previously the sport was played by men, generally affluent, who didn't think twice about spending their time off on the course. Men now play an active role in the family, and that reduces the time for golf.

 

Yes...it wasn't until the mid 2000's that men started taking an "active role" in family...good grief.

[Tim Schoch]

One positive reason would be family - previously the sport was played by men, generally affluent, who didn't think twice about spending their time off on the course. Men now play an active role in the family, and that reduces the time for golf.

 

Yes...it wasn't until the mid 2000's that men started taking an "active role" in family...good grief.

 

Bull. I was a stay-at-home dad in the late 1980s. My wife worked and so did I. I played a lot of golf at local crappy publinx, and so did my buds and their wives.

 

Today, prices are crazy--the cost of new clubs, fittings (a luxury), lessons with a pro (only good if you practice a great deal), training aids (@$100 each, a waste of money--take lessons and practice), greens fees are way up, golf course maintenance costs are way up (even water), etc.

 

Affluent men never played publinx golf, and it is publinx golf that is dying, not country club or resort golf. If a country club dies, it is natural, it just means the money has moved on. I don't care. If that adds up to the statistic that golf is slumping, I don't care. I care about local, public golf. If a public golf course closes, that is a tragedy.

 

More and more in this world, land value will escalate. Expansive lawn games like golf will rise drastically in price and vanish. Sooner or later, a shorter version of today's game must be embraced.

 

Now, I think we are beginning to see the start of that evolution.

[Moxley]

Tim, you are one person so your personal situation is hardly enough evidence to refute a broader trend in society. Perhaps you were the exception to the rule.

 

Things are changing - in the last 20 years the number of dads with children working part time has almost doubled for instance. With mothers, the trend is towards full time work, which means some childcare activities will fall on other family members including fathers.

 

It doesn't fully explain the original topic, but I think it's a factor.

 

And for the record, I'm talking about the UK, it may be different in the states.

[Tim Schoch]

Tim, you are one person so your personal situation is hardly enough evidence to refute a broader trend in society. Perhaps you were the exception to the rule.

 

Things are changing - in the last 20 years the number of dads with children working part time has almost doubled for instance. With mothers, the trend is towards full time work, which means some childcare activities will fall on other family members including fathers.

 

It doesn't fully explain the original topic, but I think it's a factor.

 

And for the record, I'm talking about the UK, it may be different in the states.

 

I actually don't think it is news at all. If this is a trend, it won't impact the game of golf. Times have changed. Computer gaming has changed how all of us entertained ourselves since the 80s. Golf is a game for an outdoor culture that invented games like croquet and badminton for fun, Otherwise it was checkers or reading. Today we can play a crazy round of golf on our phones in 20 min., then buy and sell stocks, then send that spam email for your at-home business. Meanwhile real estate prices and maintenance costs are going up, plus who can afford to build a new golf course people don't want to invest 5 hours of their life on? No one. Golf's future? Look at Topgolf and maybe par-3 courses. Golf is fast becoming a game for and about the rich. Men didn't desert the game. The game is deserting all of us.

[Lamb]

Money is in your pocket until you fork it over.

 

I remembered in the 70's and the 80's a set of nice irons will run between $600- $700, probably equivalent to $1,500 - $1,800 in today's money.

 

$700 is the 70's is not $1800 in todays money is about $7000!

[wkuo3]

Money is in your pocket until you fork it over.

 

I remembered in the 70's and the 80's a set of nice irons will run between $600- $700, probably equivalent to $1,500 - $1,800 in today's money.

 

$700 is the 70's is not $1800 in todays money is about $7000!

 

Okay, where did you get your conversion rate ?

[Bad9]

Money is in your pocket until you fork it over.

 

I remembered in the 70's and the 80's a set of nice irons will run between $600- $700, probably equivalent to $1,500 - $1,800 in today's money.

 

$700 is the 70's is not $1800 in todays money is about $7000!

 

Okay, where did you get your conversion rate ?

 

According to a few inflation calculators I tried this am $700 in 1975 is about $3300 in 2018 dollars.

[Tim Schoch]

We all know new equipment is very expensive and going up each year. We also know that rates at courses are creeping up and/or maintenance is slipping. Still some courses are crowded on weekends particularly, some aren't. Seems like it is different for us all--except I think we all agree that golf is expensive, especially with everyone in the industry telling us we need new clubs (FAR better than even 5 years ago), need fittings, etc etc.

 

On the previous page, DeeBee30 made an interesting point that we're too focused on scores. My first thought was, what else is there? Then I thought again--there's fun, satisfaction, laughing at your buddies, seeing your ball skip off the top of a lake and land on the green, etc.

 

I do focus on score. I love to know how "good" I am playing, track my progress, chart my handicap and, yes, win. However, I get much more satisfaction out of executing shots well and sinking putts, don't I? Is it all the same thing?

 

So I'm thinking about golf without a score element. Are there variations we could play that would save time? Match play is "sort of" a short cut. Ever play match play on your local par-three course? It's fun and fast! Does best-ball take less time?

 

Are we headed toward more target golf like Topgolf and "The Big Break"?

 

There's a video on History Bites of 1911 New York City. People walking down the street, kids playing on the sidewalks all alone. Everyone seems so relaxed and unbothered. Compare that to the sidewalks of New York today, where if you walk too slowly you could lose your life. So I wonder if this need for speed on the course is cultural, especially without a crowded course. Perhaps there's not enough challenge for us here in the States. Maybe we need shorter, tougher courses, more linksland style tracks.

[Soloman1]

$700 in 1970 is about $4,500 today using the inflation rate since then.

 

“The game is deserting all of us.” That is complete nonsense. Courses close because of less demand, making the course financially unviable. The dirt underneath ends up worth more than the maintained grass and other facilities. A changing local demographic has a hand in that.

 

More people played golf in the 1970’s in the US than today. Over 4,000 course were built in the bubble from mid 80’s to the end of the bubble, so more courses will close.

 

Here’s something else to add: household income has tripled from mid 1970’s but housing and everything else has increased almost sixfold. Now two people have to work to have the same standard of living as their parents with one breadwinner.

 

?? A set of irons $600-$700 in the 70’s? Haha. A new set of Hogan Apex irons was about $225 in 1980. A full bag was under $300 in the 70’s.

[wkuo3]

Money is in your pocket until you fork it over.

 

I remembered in the 70's and the 80's a set of nice irons will run between $600- $700, probably equivalent to $1,500 - $1,800 in today's money.

 

$700 is the 70's is not $1800 in todays money is about $7000!

 

Okay, where did you get your conversion rate ?

 

According to a few inflation calculators I tried this am $700 in 1975 is about $3300 in 2018 dollars.

 

Yes, 4-5 times seemed to be correct and most of the variance were in the last 5 years.

Used to be able to retire with $400,000 savings plus pension but they say even 3 time of that is not enough ( for now ), imagine what it'll be in the next decade.

Everyone wants to be a millionaire, thing is, when everyone got there, the number really wouldn't have as much meaning.

[wkuo3]

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?? A set of irons $600-$700 in the 70's? Haha. A new set of Hogan Apex irons was about $225 in 1980. A full bag was under $300 in the 70's.

 

Are you talking about whole sale level ? I had not seen Apex new at below $300, maybe in my father's time.

My last set of Apex was almost $800, 1-SW and that was a discounted number from the Edwin Watts, back then they were "the" discount store comparing to all the local price. Had to order it from the magazine via credit card over the telephone ( copper line ).

[CrazyCoolie]

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?? A set of irons $600-$700 in the 70's? Haha. A new set of Hogan Apex irons was about $225 in 1980. A full bag was under $300 in the 70's.

 

Are you talking about whole sale level ? I had not seen Apex new at below $300, maybe in my father's time.

My last set of Apex was almost $800, 1-SW and that was a discounted number from the Edwin Watts, back then they were "the" discount store comparing to all the local price. Had to order it from the magazine via credit card over the telephone ( copper line ).

 

Could you please explain more about this ordering over the phone? Was there a real person on the other end of the copper line?

[wkuo3]

.

 

?? A set of irons $600-$700 in the 70's? Haha. A new set of Hogan Apex irons was about $225 in 1980. A full bag was under $300 in the 70's.

 

Are you talking about whole sale level ? I had not seen Apex new at below $300, maybe in my father's time.

My last set of Apex was almost $800, 1-SW and that was a discounted number from the Edwin Watts, back then they were "the" discount store comparing to all the local price. Had to order it from the magazine via credit card over the telephone ( copper line ).

 

Could you please explain more about this ordering over the phone? Was there a real person on the other end of the copper line?

 

Yes, copper wire seemed ancient now.

Can't remember his name but he was one of those trying to get through Q school while working for Edwin Watts. Gave me some discount on the SW didn't charge the full wedge price. Was a set of 3-PW added the 1,2 and the SW. I had the set fitted with loft and lie when it got here.

[Tim Schoch]

$700 in 1970 is about $4,500 today using the inflation rate since then.

 

The game is deserting all of us. That is complete nonsense. Courses close because of less demand, making the course financially unviable. The dirt underneath ends up worth more than the maintained grass and other facilities. A changing local demographic has a hand in that.

 

More people played golf in the 1970s in the US than today. Over 4,000 course were built in the bubble from mid 80s to the end of the bubble, so more courses will close.

 

Heres something else to add: household income has tripled from mid 1970s but housing and everything else has increased almost sixfold. Now two people have to work to have the same standard of living as their parents with one breadwinner.

 

?? A set of irons $600-$700 in the 70s? Haha. A new set of Hogan Apex irons was about $225 in 1980. A full bag was under $300 in the 70s.

 

To your point, the game is indeed abandoning many who can no longer afford it. Or, they think they can't. Plus , as you said, courses have less demand because of all the perceived expenses, as well as the very real rising costs of course msintenance costs.

 

There is no local changing demographic for publinx. Courses can no longer support themselves and cities cant foot the rest of the bill when they could use the land for more profitable uses.

 

Not sure your club prices for the 1980s are correct. I bought a set of Ping Eye 2 irons in 1986, fitted, for $600. I doubt Hogans were ever as cheap as you say for 1980. Doesnt matter. I and thousands of others play older clubs because we cant afford Titleist irons that look exactly like Hogan irons from 18 years ago. Ever compare many of today's new irons to Hogan Apex Edge irons from 2000?

 

Anyway, in my day, kids used cut down adult clubs and old balls. Today kids get a fitting, new $1000 kid clubs, shoes, the works. Go to a drive/chip/putt competition and see for yourself. Kids are decked out right. Love it. But today's golf is crafted for those with money. Local hacks are thinning out. And people with money now might have to choose between a new computer or a set of clubs. Which would you choose?

 

Golf, like fox hunts and relaxing excursions to the seashore, is slowly going out of style, mostly for economic reasons. My advice: enjoy it while you can. Embrace the fact that you are lucky enough to tee off next, instead of not at all. And if you are in a rush and dont have 4 hours, dont go.

[Moxley]

Tim, we'll have to agree to disagree on family commitments having an impact.

 

On the economics, It's certainly the case that land value is making the game more expensive, and that will have an impact. I don't really see clubs as having much to do with it - they are expensive, but you don't need to buy new ; you can buy a set of ping g20's for a few hundred pounds, and there'll be virtually no difference between those and the latest ones. With technology moving so slow, and avid golfers still upgrading, the market is awash with great value clubs.

 

Where I would agree with you is the impact of video games. I'm part of that generation and introducing people my age to golf is difficult - the game is very tough and people don't have the patience. I bring people along and they hit a bunch of thin/fat shots, and are despondent that they can't outdrive me (I'm a relatively short hitter) despite being physically stronger. There's no instant gratification, and that's a deal breaker for something that's going to take a big chunk of time.

[elwhippy]

Clubs and gear prices going crazy due to exchange rates. Pro Shops carrying far less hardware to try. Time. The modern family is no longer male dominated, as already mentioned a lot of my friends are the lower earner compared to their wives and partners. Work patterns mean more flexibility for some but are limiting for others. A lack of wage rises, increasing inflation and our shops deciding on stocking £100 shirts, £200 sweaters etc gives the wrong impression. Cycling. Golf's nemesis. I can easily get to double figures with ex playing partners who now road or off road bike and either play less or don't play at all......Hill Walking. See the cycling scenario.. Modern PC education that says competition is wrong and traditional sports are elitist. PS games.

[Tim Schoch]

All that said, I don't see any kind of huge promotion to keep golf in the fore across all demographics. It seems that golf is product-driven not hero-driven anymore. Arnie and a few after him were everyday heroes to the public. The big tournaments seem to live in our imaginations far more than individuals. I fantacize i must sink a putt to win the US Open not to beat Justin Thomas.

 

I could debate a lot of our wild guesses in this thread, but I do think older people have a much different perspective than young people on this issue. We are almost talking about two different sports and two different realities.

 

I don't think it is a matter of agreeing or not--none of us have the facts. If we can prove that golf is shrinking because men aren't as dominant in the household, that is actionable. However, if women are working more and more dominant, why aren't they playing more golf like the men did? I'm sorry, that sounds silly. At best, joining a country club just doesn't have the appeal and status it used to. I used to expense rounds of golf with clients and prospects. Ask to expense it today.

 

I am enjoying all your thoughts.

[marmooskapaul]

IDK about expense...if you want cheap..good clubs..there has never been a better time to get them. You can get cheap..good balls too. I haven't paid more than 20$ this fall for golf at a number of local public courses around my area.

There are always going to be people who think they need the newest and greatest in any hobby...that's certainly not just a golf thing. People buy a new tennis racket..doesn't make them any better. People who have never used a bait casting reel..buy them and can't even use them...lol. people are weird.

[marmooskapaul]

One positive reason would be family - previously the sport was played by men, generally affluent, who didn't think twice about spending their time off on the course. Men now play an active role in the family, and that reduces the time for golf.

 

Yes...it wasn't until the mid 2000's that men started taking an "active role" in family...good grief.

 

Just to be clear...I was being sarcastic...

[OakLawnGolfPro]

The world is different. Everything happens much faster and feedback loops much be faster. We do a lot of research on this and it has to change with golf.

 

Social media gives you instant feedback with push notifications and other tricks they use. Golf traditionally hasn’t. We’ve got some new ways we do it with some apps, but we must constantly watch this because in the end, people will just choose to do something else.

[shotmark]

PianoWorld and GuitarWorld have forums on why people walk away from the piano or guitar. They want to play like Eddie Van Halen or Elton John after a few weeks.

 

I gave up the guitar 'cos I play it like Elton John. Would settle for being able to play a piano like EVH though.

[jut111]

Clubs being too expensive is just nonsense. Quaility used stuff has never been cheaper.

[Tim Schoch]

Clubs being too expensive is just nonsense. Quaility used stuff has never been cheaper.

 

What world are you in, bro? Those who want to improve the most want the best equipment. So do those who are starting the game. Used stuff is used--worn grooves and grips, discarded for many negative reasons. New stuff high prices need to justify the expense and fittings, grips, etc. IMO used stuff has never been more expensive because of all that must come with it.

[ChronicSlicer]

 

 

?? A set of irons $600-$700 in the 70's? Haha. A new set of Hogan Apex irons was about $225 in 1980. A full bag was under $300 in the 70's.

 

I can`t speak of Hogans but I do have a Kaplan Wilson golf history catalog book in front of me. 1977 Staff`s ran $288 2-pw. A set of Model 11 woods 1,2,3,4 were $177, a Staff sand Wedge was $32.

 

1970 Staff`s 2-pw $206 Sand wedge $22.90, Model 11 woods set 1,2,3,4 $125. They offered 12 different putters in 1970, each were $15.75

[Matt J]

The world is different. Everything happens much faster and feedback loops much be faster. We do a lot of research on this and it has to change with golf.

 

Social media gives you instant feedback with push notifications and other tricks they use. Golf traditionally hasn’t. We’ve got some new ways we do it with some apps, but we must constantly watch this because in the end, people will just choose to do something else.

 

I can't imagine something that's quicker feedback than impact with a golf ball and the ensuing ball flight.

 

Golf is seen by many as contributing to the world's problems i.e. global warming, resource monopolization, elitism. Golf needs to promote itself as being more green by moving away from chemicals, over use of water, over use of energy, and green house gas creating fossil fuel burning mowers and equipment. A biodegradable golf ball, EV mowers, and no golf carts would go a long way of cleaning up our image and promoting the pastime as actually having recreational value due to the 6 mile walk.

[leec4571]

Equipment cost

[stryper]

The world is different. Everything happens much faster and feedback loops much be faster. We do a lot of research on this and it has to change with golf.

 

Social media gives you instant feedback with push notifications and other tricks they use. Golf traditionally hasn’t. We’ve got some new ways we do it with some apps, but we must constantly watch this because in the end, people will just choose to do something else.

 

I can't imagine something that's quicker feedback than impact with a golf ball and the ensuing ball flight.

 

Golf is seen by many as contributing to the world's problems i.e. global warming, resource monopolization, elitism. Golf needs to promote itself as being more green by moving away from chemicals, over use of water, over use of energy, and green house gas creating fossil fuel burning mowers and equipment. A biodegradable golf ball, EV mowers, and no golf carts would go a long way of cleaning up our image and promoting the pastime as actually having recreational value due to the 6 mile walk.

 

If you believe in that sort of thing...I have yet to run into an ex-golfer who walked completely away from the game because of resource mismanagement or excessive use of chemicals. OTOH, I know plenty who have move onto other courses because their once favorite tract butchered their greens by trying to go cheap on the chemicals applied. :dntknw:

[Jacked_Loft]

Most quit when they realize that they'll never even get close to how those guys in TV play.

[marmooskapaul]

Clubs being too expensive is just nonsense. Quaility used stuff has never been cheaper.

 

What world are you in, bro? Those who want to improve the most want the best equipment. So do those who are starting the game. Used stuff is used--worn grooves and grips, discarded for many negative reasons. New stuff high prices need to justify the expense and fittings, grips, etc. IMO used stuff has never been more expensive because of all that must come with it.

 

You probably should update your WIMB.

[Tim Schoch]

Clubs being too expensive is just nonsense. Quaility used stuff has never been cheaper.

 

What world are you in, bro? Those who want to improve the most want the best equipment. So do those who are starting the game. Used stuff is used--worn grooves and grips, discarded for many negative reasons. New stuff high prices need to justify the expense and fittings, grips, etc. IMO used stuff has never been more expensive because of all that must come with it.

 

You probably should update your WIMB.

 

What? I get all my clubs with rare exception at Goodwill for 99 cents a club. I have many sets. I have a set of Ping G 25 irons I just gave to my son because they are crazy good and forgiving. Cost me $11. On ebay they go for over $280-300. My MP -53s cost $9. I play them because I am 69 and decided to play only what I love. On ebay that set sells for $200-450. Not listed prices, Sold. That IMO is high for and older used set. Not many people are as crazy as I have been at finding old sets. People with kids can't just cut down adult clubs anymore because it is considered child abuse, plus it is not informed--shafts too stiff and heavy, heads too heavy, grips wrong size. What do the do? New clus or a cheaper (and more popular) sport.