Chicken or the Egg... Fitting or Lessons

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Comments

  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,450 ✭✭
    dmbrill719 wrote:


    If you need something really long or really short, or really upright or really flat due to your body type/shape, then get sticks first so you can at least start in roughly the proper positions. How can you even set up correctly if you're 6'4" with standard clubs unless you have super long arms? And if you get clubs that basically fit you, the odds of them needing to be tweaked much are pretty slim. It's really not that hard to fit your basic bogey golfer into roughly the right length, lie, grip size and shaft weight and flex.



    And for the OP - I'm curious, what do you think you would've fit into before your lessons that would not fit you now?




    I agree. Too many assumptions being made in this thread.
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,470 ✭✭
    edited Dec 5, 2018 #63
    PJDog wrote:


    Sorry but this is way off base. A 75 yr old who “ isn’t very good” doesn’t need a fitting to go to lightweight more flexible shafts...just logic.




    Not when that 75 year old plays golf for fun and isn't a WRX member. With most things, you walk into a store and buy something. If he had walked into Dick's and bought something he'd be a lot worse. Not everyone who plays golf knows anything about gear, or has the "logic" to go to lightweight, high launch iron shafts. You vastly overestimate the equipment knowledge of most golfers. He probably would have bought something off the rack like the 115 gram Ping AWT regular flex shafts and then concluded golf isn't very much fun.


    PJDog wrote:


    “Good impact” ??? There is no such thing. The only impact that is good is one where the clubface and path or properly applied to the target on the correct angles. It’s the only thing the golf ball knows. There is no “good impact “ when those factors are flawed. It’s math. There are no clubs or shafts that make that happen.




    No, good impact also has a whole lot to do with where you're aimed and your ball position. That's not math. If we all had perfect setups you'd be right. But we don't. I didn't say "objectively ideal" impact I said good impact. If you're Zach Johnson and you get objectively ideal impact repeatedly your missing right by 20 yards on every shot. Ideal and good are not the same word. Good impact is relative to the golfer to a significant degree.
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  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,412 ✭✭
    PJ Dog wrote:



    Okay, so you can’t answer my question yet you continue to pontificate.

    I’m realizing that you’re making this up as you go along.

    I wish all the best in your quest to play better golf ...good luck







    Sorry; didn't know you had a question, and still don't know what the question is. You don't believe in fitting, except, apparently online fitting by Ping. I didn't know that was a question; my bad.



    As to me making it up as I go along, I read that to my wife last night and she's still laughing. If you knew me, you'd quickly realize that I'm the most data-driven guy on Earth; golf is just the tip of the iceberg. I was a high school basketball coach for 39 years; you should have sat in on a film session with me; in addition to missing meals, you'd have gone blind looking at the same play over and over and over...



    And thanks for the well wishes for my golf; as it happens, I'm on a really nice roll right now. Right after Christmas, I'm going to do a fitting for a three wood; you're welcome to come sit in if you like. Shouldn't take more than 90 minutes or so.
  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #65
    bluedot wrote:


    PJ Dog wrote:



    Okay, so you can’t answer my question yet you continue to pontificate.

    I’m realizing that you’re making this up as you go along.

    I wish all the best in your quest to play better golf ...good luck







    Sorry; didn't know you had a question, and still don't know what the question is. You don't believe in fitting, except, apparently online fitting by Ping. I didn't know that was a question; my bad.



    As to me making it up as I go along, I read that to my wife last night and she's still laughing. If you knew me, you'd quickly realize that I'm the most data-driven guy on Earth; golf is just the tip of the iceberg. I was a high school basketball coach for 39 years; you should have sat in on a film session with me; in addition to missing meals, you'd have gone blind looking at the same play over and over and over...



    And thanks for the well wishes for my golf; as it happens, I'm on a really nice roll right now. Right after Christmas, I'm going to do a fitting for a three wood; you're welcome to come sit in if you like. Shouldn't take more than 90 minutes or so.




    Okay wow

    First if all I believe strongly in fitting and you wouldn’t believe just how involved in fitting I actually am. I’ve worked with countless golfers , some of them you’d be familiar with on fitting for many years. Both professional and amateur.

    I’ve personally done hundreds and hundreds. The fitting that you’re describing is a static fitting for length, lie angle grip size, etc. incredibly useful info.



    You’re confusing that with the avg. golfer who pisses away large amounts of money chasing a ghost trying to fix swing mechanics with a new shaft or club head, If you don’t believe that to be true just take your data driven brain and read through the countless ridiculous posts on these very forums looking for help picking a shaft or adjustable head. Most of them with the premise that they’re searching for the answer for the high ball flight or spin or dispersion issues. Despite all the propaganda spewed out from the golf industry...it doesn’t work that way. You obviously believe it does. Excellent!



    It’s path , face angle, and angle of attack . And those factors are either properly aligned in relation to the target - or they are not. Apparently you aren’t aware of that mathematical truth. Drive that data Coach.



    Also I’m not sure what watching tape of high school basketball has to do with golf ? You felt it necessary to let everyone know...so congratulations for that.



    The question that was clearly put to you in a previous post and that you still refuse to answer is this-



    Please explain what shaft or club corrects swing path, face to path or angle of attack ?



    Okay Coach balls in your court, awaiting new groundbreaking data !
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,412 ✭✭
    PJDog wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    PJ Dog wrote:



    Okay, so you can't answer my question yet you continue to pontificate.

    I'm realizing that you're making this up as you go along.

    I wish all the best in your quest to play better golf ...good luck







    Sorry; didn't know you had a question, and still don't know what the question is. You don't believe in fitting, except, apparently online fitting by Ping. I didn't know that was a question; my bad.



    As to me making it up as I go along, I read that to my wife last night and she's still laughing. If you knew me, you'd quickly realize that I'm the most data-driven guy on Earth; golf is just the tip of the iceberg. I was a high school basketball coach for 39 years; you should have sat in on a film session with me; in addition to missing meals, you'd have gone blind looking at the same play over and over and over...



    And thanks for the well wishes for my golf; as it happens, I'm on a really nice roll right now. Right after Christmas, I'm going to do a fitting for a three wood; you're welcome to come sit in if you like. Shouldn't take more than 90 minutes or so.




    Okay wow

    First if all I believe strongly in fitting and you wouldn't believe just how involved in fitting I actually am. I've worked with countless golfers , some of them you'd be familiar with on fitting for many years. Both professional and amateur.

    I've personally done hundreds and hundreds. The fitting that you're describing is a static fitting for length, lie angle grip size, etc. incredibly useful info.



    You're confusing that with the avg. golfer who pisses away large amounts of money chasing a ghost trying to fix swing mechanics with a new shaft or club head, If you don't believe that to be true just take your data driven brain and read through the countless ridiculous posts on these very forums looking for help picking a shaft or adjustable head. Most of them with the premise that they're searching for the answer for the high ball flight or spin or dispersion issues. Despite all the propaganda spewed out from the golf industry...it doesn't work that way. You obviously believe it does. Excellent!



    It's path , face angle, and angle of attack . And those factors are either properly aligned in relation to the target - or they are not. Apparently you aren't aware of that mathematical truth. Drive that data Coach.



    Also I'm not sure what watching tape of high school basketball has to do with golf ? You felt it necessary to let everyone know...so congratulations for that.



    The question that was clearly put to you in a previous post and that you still refuse to answer is this-



    Please explain what shaft or club head corrects swing path, face to path or angle of attack ?



    Okay Coach balls in your court, awaiting new groundbreaking data !




    Wow. Pretty harsh stuff in that last post. You seem offended, and I'm not sure why that would be. I only referenced basketball because I'm a lunatic for data, and not just in golf. Didn't mean that to come across wrong, and sorry if it did; I sort of meant to make fun of ME.



    Last thing first: You are 100% correct that ball flight is a result of path, face angle, and angle of attack, and that those factors are either properly aligned or they aren't. Nobody, including me, would argue that. I played my last tournament of 2018 the week after Thanksgiving, and I've already started work on the AOA stuff; more positive for the driver, more negative for irons.



    Which is where lie angle, for instance, comes in. An iron that is too upright will tend to arrive at impact with the toe of the club up, which effectively closes the clubface and causes the ball to go left, which I know that you know. So if I swing an iron that is too upright FOR ME, then I either have to correct that during the swing, or aim right to compensate, or accept misses to the left; those are the only three possibilities. (The figure that I've seen over the years is 4 yds offline for each degree that the lie angle is incorrect; there may be other estimates out there) I know that you know all as well. So I want the correct lie angle on my irons so that I can take advantage when I'm fortunate enough to get the rest of the swing right.



    The rest of the basic parameters of fitting, of course, work similarly. Nobody is arguing that you can't compensate for clubs that are too long or too short, or that you can't play decent golf with the wrong shaft flex or weight; of course you can. The question at hand is whether or not there is good reason to TRY to adjust to lie angles or shaft flex/weight or club length for lesser golfers, and I don't think there is. The choice between lessons and practice and fitted clubs is a false choice; I'll benefit from all three. The degree to which one or the other of those three will benefit me relative to the others depends on a zillion variables, of course, but the point is that I'll benefit. And basic fitting parameters such as those of the Ping web fit tool, don't typically change as I progress thru lessons and practice and all of that. I think you agree with that; you referenced the Ping web tool in very complimentary terms.



    The second paragraph in your post, though, is NOT what I believe or have written about at all. "You're confusing that with the avg. golfer who pisses away large amounts of money chasing a ghost trying to fix swing mechanics with a new shaft or club head," I absolutely, 100% do NOT believe in trying to fix swing mechanics thru equipment, and I absolutely, 100% do NOT believe in trying new shafts or club heads in hopes of finding a magic bullet. EVERY club in my bag is there as an end result of a fitting process that showed it to be superior to what I had been using. I don't change clubs often (three drivers in the last 9 years, and two sets of irons in the last 6, for instance) and I ONLY change when I have the numbers to show that the change will benefit me. I've paid for fittings and left with the certainty that I couldn't do better than what I already had.



    And let's agree to separate the marketing hype of the golf industry from the question of whether or not golfers can benefit from fitted equipment. Marketing hype by the OEM's is of little interest to me, and I imagine that's the case with you as well. Distance claims in TV or print ads are no more meaningful than TM deciding to try to sell drivers by painting them white, then going back to black, the going to black and white. The attempts to sell clubs by hype is the OPPOSITE of club fitting, really, and I would imagine at least some of the manufacturers consider fitting to be their worst enemy because it makes golfers LESS likely to buy new clubs.



    Let's also agree that on one extreme you have the constant drumbeat to try the new shiny things in golf equipment, and on the other extreme you have the three figure fitting process at high end places like Club Champion and Hot Stixx and the like. I've never done that sort of a fitting, not only because I can't afford it, but because I don't think the returns on that investment would be big enough to justify it. I've been lucky enough to work with REALLY good clubfitters over the years, and in every case, they've charged reasonable fees and in most cases rolled those fees into the purchase of a club if I've bought one. I haven't gone out of my way to do fittings on the cheap; I've gone out of my way to work with good fitters, but sum total of the fitting fees I've paid for the 14 clubs in my bag right now is zero dollars. So let's ignore the extremes; they aren't relevant to the question of whether or not lesser golfers can benefit from a basic fitting.



    Hope that clarifies.
  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211
    Well that certainly took a long time to get to...but okay I seriously wish you all the best, and hope you continue to enjoy golf as much as we both obviously do.



    Just a heads up for you on lie angle issues. You gotta be careful. Here’s why - I’ve seen this way too many times. Someone goes for a fitting at a demo day or the local golf galaxy or at the local club. The fitter tries to address lie angles with face tape, lie board or some other marking. Then the ball mark appears on the toe or heel. Usually toe hits. The fitter then explains the painfully obvious that it should be in the middle of the face, and recommends change. And in some cases it’s valid. The problem for example is that steep and across as well as other swing issues can easily produce off center hits. If you change the lie angle to correct that, it can make things worse, especially if you’re planning on improving because you’ll have something that didn’t truly fit you and can actually prevent you from improving. It can be like going down a rabbit hole. It all comes full circle to path and face. If you’ve never done it before I recommend the Ping website and plug in your numbers. I do not work for them. They were on fittings light years before anyone, and their color coding system including grips is the benchmark. You don’t have to buy their stuff but it’s great to factor in what they fit you for when considering other equipment and advice. I like it because they tell you what you SHOULD be able to play with, nit something to fix you with. That’s a great starting point to address any mechanical issues that we all have ...myself included.



    Apologies for my tone earlier ...btw I played basketball into my 40’s



    Good luck

  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,412 ✭✭
    PJDog wrote:


    Well that certainly took a long time to get to...but okay I seriously wish you all the best, and hope you continue to enjoy golf as much as we both obviously do.



    Just a heads up for you on lie angle issues. You gotta be careful. Here’s why - I’ve seen this way too many times. Someone goes for a fitting at a demo day or the local golf galaxy or at the local club. The fitter tries to address lie angles with face tape, lie board or some other marking. Then the ball mark appears on the toe or heel. Usually toe hits. The fitter then explains the painfully obvious that it should be in the middle of the face, and recommends change. And in some cases it’s valid. The problem for example is that steep and across as well as other swing issues can easily produce off center hits. If you change the lie angle to correct that, it can make things worse, especially if you’re planning on improving because you’ll have something that didn’t truly fit you and can actually prevent you from improving. It can be like going down a rabbit hole. It all comes full circle to path and face. If you’ve never done it before I recommend the Ping website and plug in your numbers. I do not work for them. They were on fittings light years before anyone, and their color coding system including grips is the benchmark. You don’t have to buy their stuff but it’s great to factor in what they fit you for when considering other equipment and advice. I like it because they tell you what you SHOULD be able to play with, nit something to fix you with. That’s a great starting point to address any mechanical issues that we all have ...myself included.



    Apologies for my tone earlier ...btw I played basketball into my 40’s



    Good luck




    I've used the online tool many times, and just recommended it to a friend yesterday, in fact.



    I did my first fitting for Ping irons with a guy named Lanny Brittain in Atlanta about 25 years ago, then worked with both Chris Asbell at Georgia Golf Center and Todd Gilgrist at a PingNFlight Center (he's now at a course named Chestatee outside of Atlanta, and still is one of Ping's best guys in the SE) in the years since. I'm a good example of the limitations of the online tool; I come out 2* upright at 1/2" over standard. In EVERY dynamic fitting, I come out at 3* up and 1" long, though. And all of those guys pretty much did things the same way; strike board, tweaks, then out to the grass, then more tweaks. In all that time, the only mistake I've made was my own; when I went from steel to graphite, I didn't hit a premium graphite shaft, only the Ping stock graphite. When I got fitted this past spring for the G700's with the Recoil shaft, I was stunned at the difference.



    My first driver fitting was with Todd Gilgrist about 10 years ago, and I'm still kicking myself that I didn't so that a LOT sooner; I'd have saved a LOT of money and played better golf, too. Since then, I've gone back to him multiple times, sometimes getting a new driver (original Rapture to K15 to G30 SFT to G400 SFT), sometimes finding that the newer clubs couldn't beat what I already had (G20 and G25) and sometimes being told not to bother even coming in (G driver). But Todd has gotten me yardage back that I had lost, with equal or better dispersion, first by a lower spin rate on the G30, and then with 3 mph of clubhead speed with the G400.



    This stuff is a big deal to me; I don't have money to throw around, and I'm still trying to play competitively. Every single yard, both down the fairway and dispersion, matters to me. Plus, I've watched good fitters tweak what I was swinging and then seen the difference in ball flight results.
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,498 ✭✭
    edited Dec 7, 2018 #69
    Some people persist at justifying their perception of "anything goes". Kinda like some people think there is no wrong... Neither are good when it comes to proper judgment, learning and progressing at the game or life. Being able to adapt to a condition isn't always the best decision either. image/beach.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':beach:' />
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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,470 ✭✭
    edited Dec 8, 2018 #70
    The hardest part about getting better at golf is knowing how to get better at golf, and its the best and most maddening game in the world because the answer is different for everyone. If all you had to do to get better was pay for lessons we'd have a lot fewer guys shooting 95 with ultra-modern equipment. A lot of golfers practice. I see them on the range very single day. They almost never have an alignment stick down and they are almost always taking nothing but full swings.



    I played as a high cap for years. Then I committed to a swing "type" and a teacher who taught it, and spent a long, long time practicing address and 40 yard pitch shots or, as my teacher says, "however slow you have to go to know you are backswinging the way we want and downswinging the way we want". I still get looks when I spend 30 minutes fatting, thinning and snap-hooking shots and then hit the last 5 of the session high and straight.



    I don't like this thread because it presents getting better as a given - just get lessons and practice, you'll get better. Actually, unless you're going to comitt to one theory that makes sense to you and practice correctly, lessons will probably make you worse.



    As bluedot has said and correctly put it, its not either/or. Its a false dichotomy BUT what's interesting is the comments here.



    People don't like fitting because its a "quick fix" and won't help your path or face or impact.

    Well, guess what. Neither will taking a couple lessons. That is also a "quick fix" that won't help anything. To get reliably better takes years. To have fun at a fitting and get some cool new clubs takes an afternoon.



    If you don't have the time to practice 5-10 hours a week plus your weekend round, its going to be almost impossible to reliably improve your full swing. Fitting is better. "Taking a couple lessons" <- repeated over and over in this thread is burning your money in a trash can.
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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 4,067 ✭✭
    edited Dec 8, 2018 #71
    40 years ago. When I was 15 years old my high school golf coach told us equipment doesn't matter if your swing stinks. 40 years hence, I've never seen anything to dispel that advice.



    Fitting is small tweaks.



    Lessons are large tweaks.



    You can't buy a better golf game in an afternoon.



    Everyone who is better at golf than you is better because their swing is better than yours. Not because their clubs fit them slightly better.
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,412 ✭✭
    edited Dec 9, 2018 #72
    LeoLeo99 wrote:


    40 years ago. When I was 15 years old my high school golf coach told us equipment doesn't matter if your swing stinks. 40 years hence, I've never seen anything to dispel that advice.



    Fitting is small tweaks.



    Lessons are large tweaks.



    You can't buy a better golf game in an afternoon.



    Everyone who is better at golf than you is better because their swing is better than yours. Not because their clubs fit them slightly better.




    I understand your point, I do. But again, it isn't about whether you should take lessons or have good equipment; that's a false choice. And it isn't about whether or not I can beat you.



    Fitted equipment is about me trying to play the best golf I can possibly play; that's all. As are lessons. As is practice. It ALL works together, with no "either/or" choices. Would your HS coach have said the same thing to you if you'd been using your mom's clubs, or an old set of hickory shafted clubs, or a starter set of only a half dozen clubs, or a mismatched set that you'd bought are several yard sales? It's possible that he would have told you, "Leo, get some decent clubs instead of that crap you're using!" So it's a matter of degree.



    I did my most recent fitting (for new irons) at the end of April. I took my most recent lesson (short game) at the end of October. I did my most recent practice session (not warmup before a round; true practice) last Monday, working on not moving off the ball on my backswing and taking a correct divot. I played yesterday. It all goes together; it isn't either/or. It doesn't have to be better swings OR better equipment; it can be better swings AND better equipment. I'm trying as hard as I can to get better, and really, why would I want to do it any other way?



    And one last thing; with all due respect, you CAN buy a better golf game in an afternoon. Not necessarily a lot better, but better. NOBODY is saying that even the best possible fit of equipment will turn a chop into scratch, but you use the term "small tweaks" and small tweaks are still tweaks. The work I did in the lesson at the end of October was a small tweak, based entirely on setup for chips and pitches, but it mattered and led to better golf. Same with a good, focused practice session, and the same with equipment.
  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211
    edited Dec 9, 2018 #73
    Ideally properly fitted equipment will maximize your good shots and mitigate your bad shots. That is totally attainable and a reasonable goal. But that’s it.

    What it does NOT do is change your shots. There are many golfers who will invest in new clubs and just go on to hit their banana balls further and higher into the woods with less spin. This thread had kinda of gone off the rails. If you believe all the hype from the manufacturers would make it seem that all you have to do is open up your wallet, drink the kool aid, an you just got better at golf. And if you don’t get the latest “technology “ ...well, you’re doomed That is pure nonsense, but it’s what the majority of the golfing public has been brainwashed into believing. It’s actually a pretty miraculous job of advertising. If at fittings sessions there weren’t any graphics on clubs or shafts, and the lofts weren’t visible...I promise you very few people would end up with the same bag they currently have. Find some persimmons and some old blades and go out and play some matches with your buddies for a while. Watch how fast your swing changes.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,773 ✭✭
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #74
    rkelso184 wrote:


    Just curious what comes first!



    Everyone is always stating how important a fitting is but at the same time is it best to get fitted for clubs that suit a swing that you may be working on? Do you have lessons then get clubs fitted to suit your swing, Do you get clubs fitted to suit where you want your swing to be.... You get the point lol what comes first!!





    SORRY TO CLARIFY - I have been getting lessons THEN I got fit once we had my swing basis sorted. This isn't a question for myself personally. this is just a general chat I wanted to start to see everyone's opinions




    Well, "Rookie", I hope you've learned something after sitting back and no doubt LYAO at all the fighting going on simply because you didn't state your question clearly enough. So this is all your fault. image/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />



    And mostly nobody actually answered your actual question definitively; just fought over what, where and how without regard to WHO. I read the first 2 pages but once the 2 main combatants got into it I basically fast forwarded to "now".





    The point is, you have all sorts of types of players, from beginners to very experienced, along with all sorts of reasons for them playing; social/casual, play often and love it (but don't care about getting better), not very good but are serious about getting better, serious but "don't have the time". MANY different combinations.



    Personally, given your handicap I figured you were talking about beginners. image/dntknw.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dntknw:' />



    The answer, IMO, depends on the golfer type(s) above.



    The "answer" can be different for any combination of the above



    Having said all that I guess I should opine as well.



    ANY "serious", or expecting to become serious, golfer should get lessons first.



    It makes zero sense getting fitted into something that's likely going to change once you learn how to swing the club. For a beginner, some statically fit clubs to start with should do just fine. Once he/she has developed something resembling the swing his/her instructor is teaching can then get fit.



    ANY "casual" player who's out to enjoy him/herself should just get a basic fitting - static via the Ping site is good enough, and then just go out and have fun. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,470 ✭✭
    edited Dec 9, 2018 #75
    PJDog wrote:


    If you believe all the hype from the manufacturers would make it seem that all you have to do is open up your wallet, drink the kool aid, an you just got better at golf. And if you don't get the latest "technology " ...well, you're doomed That is pure nonsense, but it's what the majority of the golfing public has been brainwashed into believing. It's actually a pretty miraculous job of advertising. If at fittings sessions there weren't any graphics on clubs or shafts, and the lofts weren't visible...I promise you very few people would end up with the same bag they currently have. Find some persimmons and some old blades and go out and play some matches with your buddies for a while. Watch how fast your swing changes.




    Henrik drank the kool aid of having a sway on his tee shot. Spieth chicken wings. Dustin goes way off plane and Zach Johnson's grip looks like something you'd serve a tennis ball with.



    All of golf is drinking the kool aid. You never know what, if anything, will make you better. Good golf is faith. Great golf is absolute belief.



    I note that in your incredibly negative, rambling post you don't post anything actually tangible a player could do that will improve him. That's why its so hard. Because golf is the only sport there is that isn't paint by number in terms of how to get better and what the best way to play is. Could fitted equipment change your game completely? I have no idea. Maybe so. Maybe not. Depends on the golfer.



    That's why we love it. There is no "better swing". There is just a target and a plan. Its up to the golfer to decide both, and fitted clubs might just be the ticket. Who knows? The correct response to fitting or lessons is "who knows, what do you - the player doing it - think?"
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • KMo23KMo23 Members Posts: 142 ✭✭
    I’ve had people come in for fittings who have only been playing a year or less with clubs that have less forgiveness than what Jordan Spieth plays and they want “more consistency.” A lesson package with Butch harmon isn’t going to get you more consistent with those clubs; however, these Callaway Rogue irons with shafts that actually fit your clubhead speed (unworthy of XS shafts) are certainly going to help!
  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211

    PJDog wrote:


    If you believe all the hype from the manufacturers would make it seem that all you have to do is open up your wallet, drink the kool aid, an you just got better at golf. And if you don't get the latest "technology " ...well, you're doomed That is pure nonsense, but it's what the majority of the golfing public has been brainwashed into believing. It's actually a pretty miraculous job of advertising. If at fittings sessions there weren't any graphics on clubs or shafts, and the lofts weren't visible...I promise you very few people would end up with the same bag they currently have. Find some persimmons and some old blades and go out and play some matches with your buddies for a while. Watch how fast your swing changes.




    Henrik drank the kool aid of having a sway on his tee shot. Spieth chicken wings. Dustin goes way off plane and Zach Johnson's grip looks like something you'd serve a tennis ball with.



    All of golf is drinking the kool aid. You never know what, if anything, will make you better. Good golf is faith. Great golf is absolute belief.



    I note that in your incredibly negative, rambling post you don't post anything actually tangible a player could do that will improve him. That's why its so hard. Because golf is the only sport there is that isn't paint by number in terms of how to get better and what the best way to play is. Could fitted equipment change your game completely? I have no idea. Maybe so. Maybe not. Depends on the golfer.



    That's why we love it. There is no "better swing". There is just a target and a plan. Its up to the golfer to decide both, and fitted clubs might just be the ticket. Who knows? The correct response to fitting or lessons is "who knows, what do you - the player doing it - think?"




    So uninformed it’s remarkable



    The golf ball flies where the club head is pointing at impact...it curves off that line from the path that clubface was just swung on in relation to it

    ANY club that strikes a golf ball with those factors in alignment will create a good shot...ANY CLUB

    That’s it , nothing more

    There is no equipment made that will make those conditions occur

    no kickpoint , no tip stiffness , no inner wall shaft Nanotechnology or new graphite weave design, no torque number, no grip, no adjustable weights, no swing weight, no flexibility, no composites, no foam injection, no cup face, no twist face, no hot melt , no tour issue, no from Japan, no forging, no perimeter weighting, no forgiveness, no sweet spot, no adapter or wrench, no low spin, no high launch, no cool graphics or names or blah blah blah propaganda



    All those things can only enhance what just happened during a swing ...for better or worse btw.



    The ignorance is stunning





  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,470 ✭✭
    PJDog wrote:


    So uninformed it’s remarkable



    The golf ball flies where the club head is pointing at impact...it curves off that line from the path that clubface was just swung on in relation to it

    ANY club that strikes a golf ball with those factors in alignment will create a good shot...ANY CLUB

    That’s it , nothing more

    There is no equipment made that will make those conditions occur

    no kickpoint , no tip stiffness , no inner wall shaft Nanotechnology or new graphite weave design, no torque number, no grip, no adjustable weights, no swing weight, no flexibility, no composites, no foam injection, no cup face, no twist face, no hot melt , no tour issue, no from Japan, no forging, no perimeter weighting, no forgiveness, no sweet spot, no adapter or wrench, no low spin, no high launch, no cool graphics or names or blah blah blah propaganda



    All those things can only enhance what just happened during a swing ...for better or worse btw.



    The ignorance is stunning




    You get pretty personal for some reason.



    What about Vijay Singh's driver? It sits 4* open. If you hit that ("ANY CLUB", your words) with perfect path and face you'd block it 40 yards right.



    Golf doesn't work the way you want it to. 36 perfect mechanical swings doesn't mean you shoot 72. Every player has to create his or her way of getting around the course and that includes equipment and equipment modifications.
    Ping G30 10.5* 14.5* 19* TFC-419 X
    Adams Idea Tech CB3 Forged 4-GW KBS Tour 90
    Vokey SM6 55* M Grind
    Scotty Cameron Big Sur 34"
  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #79
    Here’s the ignorance thing...it’s obvious



    Why would you think that an open club blocks it to the right ???

    You said perfect path and face ?

    Describe perfect path and face ...
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,412 ✭✭
    Ben Hogan's clubs:

    zero bounce on his 8 and 9 irons, negative bounce on his long irons, 5 degrees bounce on his PW

    Irons were a half inch over standard (Hogan was 5-8) and several degrees flat, and had the heels ground so that the irons played 5 degrees open

    Driver swingweight was G2, the heaviest ever measured by the USGA.

    His driver had less loft than most of his day, but his three wood had slightly MORE loft than most of his day

    Grips had a reminder rib turned slightly to the right from center



    Though Hogan was likely extreme in this regard, there are similar stories about the heavily "customized" equipment used by others.



    Arguably, Hogan was better at delivering the face of the club to the ball at an angle and on a path of his choosing than anyone who ever lived (with the possible exception, of course, of Moe Norman) and yet Hogan felt that he needed all of these adjustments to play his best golf. It would be the height or arrogance, or ignorance, or denial, for me to believe that I need LESS help than Ben Effing Hogan...



    We all know that with a perfect swing, we will deliver the club squarely to the ball on a path that will result in a good shot; maybe a great shot. The problem is, that no matter how much I practice and how hard I work at my swing, from time to time, I don't actually make perfect swings! And so I like clubs that bail me out a bit. I like clubheads with a pretty high degree of perimeter weighting, and I like them to be closed a bit. I like my irons to be several degrees upright, with a bit of offset, and a bit more bounce, and I like my iron shafts to be an inch over standard. None of these things are important in the least for the half dozen or so perfect shots I hit during a round, but they do help a quite a bit for the other forty or so less-than-perfect swings I make per round. And I've watched my ball flight change during fittings as the fitter and I have tweaked this stuff to get me as close as I can get to hitting decent shots on my less-than-perfect swings.



    So to the OP: It isn't a "chicken of the egg" question at all, and I urge you not to think about it that way. Get lessons. Practice a lot. Improve your swing path, your club face angle at impact, and the other basics of a good swing; there actually aren't that many of them. Improve your address position(s). And get good, fitted equipment on the off chance that you aren't Ben Hogan either. Don't change equipment every time new stuff comes out, and don't buy into marketing hype about distance, but get good stuff that's fitted to you. But don't wait until you perfect your swing to get the right equipment; that day will never come.
  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211
    bluedot wrote:


    Ben Hogan's clubs:

    zero bounce on his 8 and 9 irons, negative bounce on his long irons, 5 degrees bounce on his PW

    Irons were a half inch over standard (Hogan was 5-8) and several degrees flat, and had the heels ground so that the irons played 5 degrees open

    Driver swingweight was G2, the heaviest ever measured by the USGA.

    His driver had less loft than most of his day, but his three wood had slightly MORE loft than most of his day

    Grips had a reminder rib turned slightly to the right from center



    Though Hogan was likely extreme in this regard, there are similar stories about the heavily "customized" equipment used by others.



    Arguably, Hogan was better at delivering the face of the club to the ball at an angle and on a path of his choosing than anyone who ever lived (with the possible exception, of course, of Moe Norman) and yet Hogan felt that he needed all of these adjustments to play his best golf. It would be the height or arrogance, or ignorance, or denial, for me to believe that I need LESS help than Ben Effing Hogan...



    We all know that with a perfect swing, we will deliver the club squarely to the ball on a path that will result in a good shot; maybe a great shot. The problem is, that no matter how much I practice and how hard I work at my swing, from time to time, I don't actually make perfect swings! And so I like clubs that bail me out a bit. I like clubheads with a pretty high degree of perimeter weighting, and I like them to be closed a bit. I like my irons to be several degrees upright, with a bit of offset, and a bit more bounce, and I like my iron shafts to be an inch over standard. None of these things are important in the least for the half dozen or so perfect shots I hit during a round, but they do help a quite a bit for the other forty or so less-than-perfect swings I make per round. And I've watched my ball flight change during fittings as the fitter and I have tweaked this stuff to get me as close as I can get to hitting decent shots on my less-than-perfect swings.



    So to the OP: It isn't a "chicken of the egg" question at all, and I urge you not to think about it that way. Get lessons. Practice a lot. Improve your swing path, your club face angle at impact, and the other basics of a good swing; there actually aren't that many of them. Improve your address position(s). And get good, fitted equipment on the off chance that you aren't Ben Hogan either. Don't change equipment every time new stuff comes out, and don't buy into marketing hype about distance, but get good stuff that's fitted to you. But don't wait until you perfect your swing to get the right equipment; that day will never come.




    Just an honest question out of curiosity



    Why do you like you’re clubs to be closed ?
  • bluedotbluedot Members Posts: 3,412 ✭✭
    PJDog wrote:

    bluedot wrote:


    Ben Hogan's clubs:

    zero bounce on his 8 and 9 irons, negative bounce on his long irons, 5 degrees bounce on his PW

    Irons were a half inch over standard (Hogan was 5-8) and several degrees flat, and had the heels ground so that the irons played 5 degrees open

    Driver swingweight was G2, the heaviest ever measured by the USGA.

    His driver had less loft than most of his day, but his three wood had slightly MORE loft than most of his day

    Grips had a reminder rib turned slightly to the right from center



    Though Hogan was likely extreme in this regard, there are similar stories about the heavily "customized" equipment used by others.



    Arguably, Hogan was better at delivering the face of the club to the ball at an angle and on a path of his choosing than anyone who ever lived (with the possible exception, of course, of Moe Norman) and yet Hogan felt that he needed all of these adjustments to play his best golf. It would be the height or arrogance, or ignorance, or denial, for me to believe that I need LESS help than Ben Effing Hogan...



    We all know that with a perfect swing, we will deliver the club squarely to the ball on a path that will result in a good shot; maybe a great shot. The problem is, that no matter how much I practice and how hard I work at my swing, from time to time, I don't actually make perfect swings! And so I like clubs that bail me out a bit. I like clubheads with a pretty high degree of perimeter weighting, and I like them to be closed a bit. I like my irons to be several degrees upright, with a bit of offset, and a bit more bounce, and I like my iron shafts to be an inch over standard. None of these things are important in the least for the half dozen or so perfect shots I hit during a round, but they do help a quite a bit for the other forty or so less-than-perfect swings I make per round. And I've watched my ball flight change during fittings as the fitter and I have tweaked this stuff to get me as close as I can get to hitting decent shots on my less-than-perfect swings.



    So to the OP: It isn't a "chicken of the egg" question at all, and I urge you not to think about it that way. Get lessons. Practice a lot. Improve your swing path, your club face angle at impact, and the other basics of a good swing; there actually aren't that many of them. Improve your address position(s). And get good, fitted equipment on the off chance that you aren't Ben Hogan either. Don't change equipment every time new stuff comes out, and don't buy into marketing hype about distance, but get good stuff that's fitted to you. But don't wait until you perfect your swing to get the right equipment; that day will never come.




    Just an honest question out of curiosity



    Why do you like you’re clubs to be closed ?




    I want the right side of the course to be out of play as much as possible; I can't play good golf with two-way misses, and my natural shot is a draw. I understand that there is no such thing as "sidespin" or "backspin"; there's just spin, and the axis is more likely to tilt one way or the other than to be exactly straight up and down relative to the target line, and I want to control which way it tilts even if I can't always control the amount. Since I am unlikely to deliver the club face EXACTLY square to the ball every time anyway, I want to deliver it in a way that guarantees that I know what is going to happen, and a slightly closed clubface helps me do that. I know that you know all of this.



    The first golf book I ever read, before I ever had a lesson, was "Golf My Way" by Nicklaus. He explains early on the book why it's easier to curve the ball than to hit it straight, and why it's safer as well. Made sense to me then, makes sense to me now, so I play a draw; always have. If I don't draw it, it tends to go straight; I might start it too far right and have it not come back, but I slice a ball about as often as Halley's Comet comes around.



    One of my favorite practice drills is to put an alignment stick in the ground about 20' ahead of me, and start the ball to the right of the stick and try to curve it back to a target. That way, I'm practicing controlling face angle AND swing path, which I know that you know are two of the real keys to the golf swing. (Most of the time, I've got impact tape on the club as well, fwiw.)



    That's an honest answer.
  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211
    Cool that’s about the best drill there is imo, I use it as well. As long as I’m not aiming to the right of the stick to achieve missing it...it’s imperative to have an alignment stick for stance also.I asked because most golfers you ask ( like the Vijay guy on this thread) aren’t aware that draws are hit with an open face and fades are with a closed face.



  • pinestreetgolfpinestreetgolf Members Posts: 3,470 ✭✭
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #84
    PJDog wrote:


    Cool that’s about the best drill there is imo, I use it as well. As long as I’m not aiming to the right of the stick to achieve missing it...it’s imperative to have an alignment stick for stance also.I asked because most golfers you ask ( like the Vijay guy on this thread) aren’t aware that draws are hit with an open face and fades are with a closed face.




    Obviously draws are hit with a face open to the target but closed to the path. The point is that even the games most elite players (of all time) feel that fitting / tinkering with their clubs is very beneficial. That's the point of the Vijay story.



    Kuchar's iron shafts are about 40 grams lighter than anyone else on tour. Its odd he plays those, given that it doesn't matter what equipment you use or how you are fit. Same for Hogan. Same for basically anyone who can play golf well. And its the same for a 20 cap.



    We play the course, not each other. As bluedot has said, its not either/or. Getting clubs you love that can compensate for your flaws to a certain degree will help your game. Period.



    Now, if by "lessons", you mean 9 months of intense work with a really good teacher then of course fitting is "worse".

    Now, if by "lessons", you mean three lessons in six weeks with a guy you found on Craigslist who charges $35/hour, I'd rather have a fitting.



    Its all relative but you talk as if it isn't.
    Ping G30 10.5* 14.5* 19* TFC-419 X
    Adams Idea Tech CB3 Forged 4-GW KBS Tour 90
    Vokey SM6 55* M Grind
    Scotty Cameron Big Sur 34"
  • Matt JMatt J Members Posts: 8,734 ✭✭
    edited Dec 10, 2018 #85
    To the OP if you're still reading... this is your answer.



    Take your static measurements, you can even post them here, to see if you're much different than standard. Also, your average carry with driver. Have your current set tweaked to match or if you need different shafts buy used. Then go get lessons.



    The truth is a little of both. You will discourage improvement and might ingrain bad habits if your clubs are grossly misfit, but you can get pretty close to fit, close enough for a beginner, for free.



    Edited to ad:. I got WRX'd. OP hasn't posted since the thread topic over a month ago, and the usual suspects grinding axes anyways. New Year's Res. read whole thread before I post.



  • PJDogPJDog Members Posts: 211

    PJDog wrote:


    Cool that’s about the best drill there is imo, I use it as well. As long as I’m not aiming to the right of the stick to achieve missing it...it’s imperative to have an alignment stick for stance also.I asked because most golfers you ask ( like the Vijay guy on this thread) aren’t aware that draws are hit with an open face and fades are with a closed face.




    Obviously draws are hit with a face open to the target but closed to the path. The point is that even the games most elite players (of all time) feel that fitting / tinkering with their clubs is very beneficial. That's the point of the Vijay story.



    Kuchar's iron shafts are about 40 grams lighter than anyone else on tour. Its odd he plays those, given that it doesn't matter what equipment you use or how you are fit. Same for Hogan. Same for basically anyone who can play golf well. And its the same for a 20 cap.



    We play the course, not each other. As bluedot has said, its not either/or. Getting clubs you love that can compensate for your flaws to a certain degree will help your game. Period.



    Now, if by "lessons", you mean 9 months of intense work with a really good teacher then of course fitting is "worse".

    Now, if by "lessons", you mean three lessons in six weeks with a guy you found on Craigslist who charges $35/hour, I'd rather have a fitting.



    Its all relative but you talk as if it isn't.




    Umm sorry wrong I replied to an ignorant post directed at me that suggested an open face would block it 40 yds. Plain ignorance is the truth of it. That ain’t on me. So get it straight before you speak.

    The thing Is this ...if you’re swinging down and to the left with a closed clubface, then there’s not a club in existence to address that in spite of the hype.

    However it’s smart to get fit for speed and size. That’s got nothing to do with playing better. It’s so your clubs won’t **** your chance for improving.

    Now if your swinging better then fitting is essential. The op was one or the other. It’s absurd to go to some elaborate fitting before you get good enough to benefit from it.

    I can it explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you
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