True Improvement ... With Verifiable Results

[BKN1964]

I read the same study that ST is referring to. While trying to track it down ( I cannot) came across this:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2650782/

 

It's rather wonky and my eyes glazed reading it but upshot is time and intensity of practice matter a great deal more than at what age one starts. They feel that if proper time and effort is put in most anyone can greatly improve and reach scratch.

 

My subjective feeling is that they're off on this a bit. In music, it's imperative to start young, 12 at the latest, the theory is connections between the right and left hemispheres grow stronger and faster in the elasticity of youth. Also as important is the pre-frontal cortex is lagging and not developed so reliance on that part of the brain is minimized, something which is important in musical & sports performance."Being in the zone" so to speak and freely allowing mind to run fast and not get bogged down with "logic".

 

But bright side in their study is if you dig in the dirt, brain will fortify connections and true development will occur. It does mean that real time and commitment has to be put in. In youth you have that along with a more malleable brain,in adulthood, you have less of both.

 

Quote from the study: "To gain a reasonable handicap of 10–15, at least 5000–10000 practice hours are necessary."

 

Assuming you have other obligations once you're in your 20's or later (work, family, etc.): If you can practice 2 hours every weekday evening and 8 hours on each weekend day, it'd take between 3.7 and 7.4 years just to get your index down to the 10-15 range.

 

As a 54 yo current 20 index who really started playing seriously 4 years ago, I've got some work to do ...

[thewral]

Tried to send you a message but your mailbox is full.

[Nard_S]

I read the same study that ST is referring to. While trying to track it down ( I cannot) came across this:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2650782/

 

It's rather wonky and my eyes glazed reading it but upshot is time and intensity of practice matter a great deal more than at what age one starts. They feel that if proper time and effort is put in most anyone can greatly improve and reach scratch.

 

My subjective feeling is that they're off on this a bit. In music, it's imperative to start young, 12 at the latest, the theory is connections between the right and left hemispheres grow stronger and faster in the elasticity of youth. Also as important is the pre-frontal cortex is lagging and not developed so reliance on that part of the brain is minimized, something which is important in musical & sports performance."Being in the zone" so to speak and freely allowing mind to run fast and not get bogged down with "logic".

 

But bright side in their study is if you dig in the dirt, brain will fortify connections and true development will occur. It does mean that real time and commitment has to be put in. In youth you have that along with a more malleable brain,in adulthood, you have less of both.

 

Quote from the study: "To gain a reasonable handicap of 10–15, at least 5000–10000 practice hours are necessary."

 

Assuming you have other obligations once you're in your 20's or later (work, family, etc.): If you can practice 2 hours every weekday evening and 8 hours on each weekend day, it'd take between 3.7 and 7.4 years just to get your index down to the 10-15 range.

 

As a 54 yo current 20 index who really started playing seriously 4 years ago, I've got some work to do ...

 

I question some of their findings in terms of hours and such. They seemed to be more intent on measuring actual brain function changes as it relates to practicing. I personally do not believe it takes anything near those numbers to go 20-10. 10-0? Maybe yes.

[Obee]

Tried to send you a message but your mailbox is full.

 

Just cleaned it up.

[Obee]

I read the same study that ST is referring to. While trying to track it down ( I cannot) came across this:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2650782/

 

It's rather wonky and my eyes glazed reading it but upshot is time and intensity of practice matter a great deal more than at what age one starts. They feel that if proper time and effort is put in most anyone can greatly improve and reach scratch.

 

My subjective feeling is that they're off on this a bit. In music, it's imperative to start young, 12 at the latest, the theory is connections between the right and left hemispheres grow stronger and faster in the elasticity of youth. Also as important is the pre-frontal cortex is lagging and not developed so reliance on that part of the brain is minimized, something which is important in musical & sports performance."Being in the zone" so to speak and freely allowing mind to run fast and not get bogged down with "logic".

 

But bright side in their study is if you dig in the dirt, brain will fortify connections and true development will occur. It does mean that real time and commitment has to be put in. In youth you have that along with a more malleable brain,in adulthood, you have less of both.

 

Quote from the study: "To gain a reasonable handicap of 10–15, at least 5000–10000 practice hours are necessary."

 

Assuming you have other obligations once you're in your 20's or later (work, family, etc.): If you can practice 2 hours every weekday evening and 8 hours on each weekend day, it'd take between 3.7 and 7.4 years just to get your index down to the 10-15 range.

 

As a 54 yo current 20 index who really started playing seriously 4 years ago, I've got some work to do ...

 

I question some of their findings in terms of hours and such. They seemed to be more intent on measuring actual brain function changes as it relates to practicing. I personally do not believe it takes anything near those numbers to go 20-10. 10-0? Maybe yes.

 

Yeah, those hours are just ranges. Individuals will vary greatly.

 

In about two years from starting, I was a 2 handicap. I played 3 - 4 times a week back then and virtually never "practiced." Figure I spent 16 hours a week on golf back then, with most of that time PLAYING golf, so there's a lot of tine when you are not at all hitting shots or doing anything golf-related when you are "golfing." But if you add all those hours together, I went from a beginner to a 2-handicap in about 1700 hours.

[bladehunter]

Those hours don’t make sense. Not as an absolute. I got to 0.8 in 3 years while running and owning a business and adopting my now 10 year old. I am lucky enough to have built a home range. So I can practice with any free second. But still. 10k hours. ? No way.

[Krt22]

Those hours don't make sense. Not as an absolute. I got to 0.8 in 3 years while running and owning a business and adopting my now 10 year old. I am lucky enough to have built a home range. So I can practice with any free second. But still. 10k hours. ? No way.

 

There are outliers in every case, you are likely one of them. Wasnt there that one guy who quit his job, with the intent to invest the 10k hours to get to scratch or better. I think he quit at 5k hours or so and never got better than a 5

[otw]

15hdcp to 1 in 18 months age 27. first score under par was 68 . a bit of nerves that day was in uncharted waters ))

[Obee]

Obee are you asking for tournament proof to keep the vanity cappers out?

 

Really just to make it verifiable. In the UK, "competition rounds" have to be witnessed. Here it's tournament rounds.

[Nard_S]

Those hours don't make sense. Not as an absolute. I got to 0.8 in 3 years while running and owning a business and adopting my now 10 year old. I am lucky enough to have built a home range. So I can practice with any free second. But still. 10k hours. ? No way.

 

Yeah again I don't buy the numbers but I posted link to show that there is "hope". You my friend are statistical freak though. You remind me of guy I played with who shot his age one round. Told me he had one lesson, the pro walked away after 10 minutes. Guy could not hit it far at 77 but his P6 was money. Getting from 20-10 can be done with 100-200 hours of the right practice, imo. To scratch for mortals? Several thousand is the bottom if and only if it's not wasted. Some folks hit the lottery on their innate swing, most never come close.

[bladehunter]

Those hours don't make sense. Not as an absolute. I got to 0.8 in 3 years while running and owning a business and adopting my now 10 year old. I am lucky enough to have built a home range. So I can practice with any free second. But still. 10k hours. ? No way.

 

Yeah again I don't buy the numbers but I posted link to show that there is "hope". You my friend are statistical freak though. You remind me of guy I played with who shot his age one round. Told me he had one lesson, the pro walked away after 10 minutes. Guy could not hit it far at 77 but his P6 was money. Getting from 20-10 can be done with 100-200 hours of the right practice, imo. To scratch for mortals? Several thousand is the bottom if and only if it's not wasted. Some folks hit the lottery on their innate swing, most never come close.

 

Yea. I guess so. It’s still all relative. I’m just as frustrated as the 10 wanting to be 5 though. I can see +2-3 over the horizon. I keep riding. But we ain’t there yet. Lol.

 

I think it helps that I’m self taught at a lot of things too. Nearly everything. It’s more mindset than anything. In my head. If one human can do it. I can too. Period. ( realistically untrue. But ..... there’s a chance. Lol ).

[jbw749]

Obee are you asking for tournament proof to keep the vanity cappers out?

 

Really just to make it verifiable. In the UK, "competition rounds" have to be witnessed. Here it's tournament rounds.

 

I played in a tournament with a +2 who shot 90. We were members at a pretty snooty club about 10 years ago and this guy was not an actual +2 yet he carried a GHIN handicap that said he was. There is a lot of that going on.

 

[otw]

Obee are you asking for tournament proof to keep the vanity cappers out?

 

Really just to make it verifiable. In the UK, "competition rounds" have to be witnessed. Here it's tournament rounds.

 

I played in a tournament with a +2 who shot 90. We were members at a pretty snooty club about 10 years ago and this guy was not an actual +2 yet he carried a GHIN handicap that said he was. There is a lot of that going on.

Hollywood handicaps are alway good paydays :busted_cop:

[Obee]

Can you share with us what sort of research you're conducting? Now THAT would be interesting!

 

I want to find any commonality/trends amongst golfers (who have taken the game up as adults) who have gotten to a level where they can play scratch tournaments and actually compete.

[GolfTurkey]

Can you share with us what sort of research you're conducting? Now THAT would be interesting!

 

I want to find any commonality/trends amongst golfers (who have taken the game up as adults) who have gotten to a level where they can play scratch tournaments and actually compete.

I'm going to take a guess that the answer will be serious talent (really good at other sport), single-mindedness and focus plus often some fortuitous circumstance e.g. very good instructor in the area, able to play a lot with better players etc.

[psunate08]

I started playing 3 years ago at 26 years old. 29 now and stay around a 2 cap at my home course. Just started playing tournament golf this past summer here in PA. Only played in 3, one day tournaments, shooting in the 70’s, but nothing near the top of the pack. Played baseball all my life, but not in college. I’m self employed, with no kids, so I do have free time to practice at my club often. It’s pretty much my only hobby, so golf is most of my free time. I also work with an instructor for 2 hours every few weeks. Hoping to play more tournament golf in 2019 and get to scratch or plus territory. Feel free to message me if you’d like any further info!

[Jim Waldron]

I had a female student about a decade ago who had never played golf until the summer beforer her sophomore year at college, but was one of the best high school baseball hitters (fast pitch softball) in the nation. Never read a golf mag or book, never watched golf on tv, never had touched a club.

 

Her roomate at college was on the golf team so she ended up hanging with the golf team gals.

 

Decided she would give it a try. Played her little rural Oregon 9 hole muni a bunch in that summer and went to the range a few times.

 

Totally self taught.

 

18 months later she is a legit +2 and came in second in the Oregon Women's Am.

 

And could hit it a mile....average around 280 total distance.

 

Best self-taught golf swing I and a pro friend of mine have ever seen....not even a close second.

 

Became the number one player on her college team basically overnight.

 

But struggled with a poor temper and poor putting.

 

If she had fixed those two issues she would have ended up on the LPGA Tour.

 

She told me that to her, the golf swing was just "my baseball swing bent over at the hips"....which the great Ben Hogan also used to tell folks.

[bobbyjones59]

Will be responding to a bunch of the posts on here soon. Work has been absolutely crazy lately.

 

Didn't realize you worked with all the golf you play.

[Obee]

Will be responding to a bunch of the posts on here soon. Work has been absolutely crazy lately.

 

Didn't realize you worked with all the golf you play.

 

Touché. ;-)

 

However, I have a full-time job with a 4.5 - 5-hour round-trip commute. :-)

[bladehunter]

Very interested in this thread Obee.

 

I’m not bonified ( yet ) In larger tournaments. But it’s early yet in my journey.

 

My thoughts on the subject.

I’d say that the guy or gal that can pickup this game and go usually is going to have played another sport or two at a high level. And be one who can pickup anything and do it. Example you take them bowling and they roll a 170 first time out in years. And think nothing of it. Or join a pickup basketball game and after a few minutes they are lighting it up. Having not held a ball in 10 years. Or throwing batting practice for your kids 12 year old team and not hitting anybody or throwing wild pitches. ( harder to do than you’d think ) These are things I just consider normal. But really I’m seeing they aren’t.

 

Then I’ll add in this. The idea that golf is simple. Yes. Simple. People make it harder that it needs to be. Even I have been in this trap . But having figured out that I got into the game with this I idea and got away from it has really helped me. It’s just getting the ball in the Hole. It’s not a mythical journey. It’s not an unsolvable riddle. And the trap I fall into is thinking that you have to do it a certain way. Or with certain equipment. You don’t. Score trumps all. Throw fear away. It serves no purpose in this game. Especially when we’re talking shortgame . Biggest thing I see is people who don’t use any speed in their bunker/shortgame play. You have to have speed at the bottom to control the ball. I’ve learned that this applies to putting as well. And my putting has improved greatly since that revelation.

 

In short. I think it’s when natural athletic ability meets an unreasonable amount of self confidence. You have to be delusional to start with to get through the times when you don’t have any idea where the ball is going when yoU take it back. In hindsight these times were enough to quit over. But I never once have thought of quitting. Just hit more balls.

 

 

 

[Obee]

Love that, BH. I suspect, too, that this is what I will find.

[farmer]

Started at 20, could never get to scratch, but was close for years. Never really practiced, just played. Won some little rural tournaments, that's all. My busy time as a real, full time farmer was the warm months, otherwise I'm sure I would have been on tour. Nah, that was just trolling. In reality, I was breaking 90 in a couple of months, which might make me a bit of an outlier.

[bogeypro]

Can you share with us what sort of research you're conducting? Now THAT would be interesting!

 

I want to find any commonality/trends amongst golfers (who have taken the game up as adults) who have gotten to a level where they can play scratch tournaments and actually compete.

I'm going to take a guess that the answer will be serious talent (really good at other sport), single-mindedness and focus plus often some fortuitous circumstance e.g. very good instructor in the area, able to play a lot with better players etc.

 

It starts with natural hand eye coordination.

 

I was just blessed with the ability to puck up swing changes quickly and get the ball in target. I was self educated in the swing. Didn’t get formal lesson until probably 4 years ago. We changed a few things, we kept most of it.

 

I played slot of baseball as a kid.

 

I suspect this ability to just get ball in target, be a fast learner, emulate others, and hand eye coordination are the keys to adults getting good quickly.

[Nard_S]

Can you share with us what sort of research you're conducting? Now THAT would be interesting!

 

I want to find any commonality/trends amongst golfers (who have taken the game up as adults) who have gotten to a level where they can play scratch tournaments and actually compete.

I'm going to take a guess that the answer will be serious talent (really good at other sport), single-mindedness and focus plus often some fortuitous circumstance e.g. very good instructor in the area, able to play a lot with better players etc.

 

It starts with natural hand eye coordination.

 

I was just blessed with the ability to puck up swing changes quickly and get the ball in target. I was self educated in the swing. Didn't get formal lesson until probably 4 years ago. We changed a few things, we kept most of it.

 

I played slot of baseball as a kid.

 

I suspect this ability to just get ball in target, be a fast learner, emulate others, and hand eye coordination are the keys to adults getting good quickly.

 

LOL, I have a crapload of hand/eye. I'm a toolmaker and played drums for 2 decades. Body/hand?Body/eye? Meh, not so much.

[bogeypro]

Can you share with us what sort of research you're conducting? Now THAT would be interesting!

 

I want to find any commonality/trends amongst golfers (who have taken the game up as adults) who have gotten to a level where they can play scratch tournaments and actually compete.

I'm going to take a guess that the answer will be serious talent (really good at other sport), single-mindedness and focus plus often some fortuitous circumstance e.g. very good instructor in the area, able to play a lot with better players etc.

 

It starts with natural hand eye coordination.

 

I was just blessed with the ability to puck up swing changes quickly and get the ball in target. I was self educated in the swing. Didn't get formal lesson until probably 4 years ago. We changed a few things, we kept most of it.

 

I played slot of baseball as a kid.

 

I suspect this ability to just get ball in target, be a fast learner, emulate others, and hand eye coordination are the keys to adults getting good quickly.

 

LOL, I have a crapload of hand/eye. I'm a toolmaker and played drums for 2 decades. Body/hand?Body/eye? Meh, not so much.

 

Drummer! I’m jealous. I always wanted to be a drummer. Played trombone instead. ?

 

Can you share with us what sort of research you're conducting? Now THAT would be interesting!

 

I want to find any commonality/trends amongst golfers (who have taken the game up as adults) who have gotten to a level where they can play scratch tournaments and actually compete.

I'm going to take a guess that the answer will be serious talent (really good at other sport), single-mindedness and focus plus often some fortuitous circumstance e.g. very good instructor in the area, able to play a lot with better players etc.

 

It starts with natural hand eye coordination.

 

I was just blessed with the ability to puck up swing changes quickly and get the ball in target. I was self educated in the swing. Didn't get formal lesson until probably 4 years ago. We changed a few things, we kept most of it.

 

I played slot of baseball as a kid.

 

I suspect this ability to just get ball in target, be a fast learner, emulate others, and hand eye coordination are the keys to adults getting good quickly.

 

LOL, I have a crapload of hand/eye. I'm a toolmaker and played drums for 2 decades. Body/hand?Body/eye? Meh, not so much.

 

Drummer! I’m jealous. I always wanted to be a drummer. Played trombone instead. ?

[scottyc15]

Apologies for bringing back a month old thread, but I would certainly fall into this category.

 

I picked up the game at age 19 while I was playing college baseball (I was a pitcher so I had a lot of down time). I'm 31 now, but I didn't start playing tournament golf until I was 25 and it was not pretty. I became pretty addicted to it and just kept working on my game. I won the Houston city amateur a few years later and have since won a few Texas golf association events. Also was medalist in my U.S. Am qualifier in 2017 and played Riviera/Bel-Air. Made it to the round of 32 in the U.S. Mid Am this year. There's just something special about tournament golf and once you figure out your tendencies under pressure (good and bad), being in contention to win is addicting.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Most people I play with started late in life. None of them got to scratch, but a couple started in their 40s and got down to 2-4 range.

 

It might simply be that the amount of time and effort fine tuning the swing and practicing is not worth it to the older folks even if they have the talent.

 

Most older people don’t have dreams of becoming a pro or even club champion, they’d rather just spend time enjoying golf than turning it into another job.

[Obee]

Apologies for bringing back a month old thread, but I would certainly fall into this category.

 

I picked up the game at age 19 while I was playing college baseball (I was a pitcher so I had a lot of down time). I'm 31 now, but I didn't start playing tournament golf until I was 25 and it was not pretty. I became pretty addicted to it and just kept working on my game. I won the Houston city amateur a few years later and have since won a few Texas golf association events. Also was medalist in my U.S. Am qualifier in 2017 and played Riviera/Bel-Air. Made it to the round of 32 in the U.S. Mid Am this year. There's just something special about tournament golf and once you figure out your tendencies under pressure (good and bad), being in contention to win is addicting.

 

Love this!!

 

Are you mostly self-taught? Or did you take consistent lessons?

[crapula]

I don't fully qualify but I might after this year...

 

I started at 27 and I've been playing for 10 years. Last year I got to my lowest handicap, 1. I shot under the course rating 5 times, for a total of 8 times since 2015. 2017 was a wash as I was recovering from back surgery, not golf related as it's been injured since I was 18. Was an assistant pro from 2016-2018 and played in some assistant events. I always shot close to my handicap in those events which was about a 4 at the time.

 

I play for money and play in skins games. I usually play well and shot a 69 last year in a skins game with about 40 people, made some money.

 

This year I'll play in the Illinois Open, I tried a few years ago and missed qualifying by 1 shot, again I was about a 4 handicap and shot a 79.

 

 

My first 5 rounds: Score-121, Differential-64.1; 114, 41.9; 118,40.1; 115, 39.8; 113, 39.3.

[scottyc15]

Apologies for bringing back a month old thread, but I would certainly fall into this category.

 

I picked up the game at age 19 while I was playing college baseball (I was a pitcher so I had a lot of down time). I'm 31 now, but I didn't start playing tournament golf until I was 25 and it was not pretty. I became pretty addicted to it and just kept working on my game. I won the Houston city amateur a few years later and have since won a few Texas golf association events. Also was medalist in my U.S. Am qualifier in 2017 and played Riviera/Bel-Air. Made it to the round of 32 in the U.S. Mid Am this year. There's just something special about tournament golf and once you figure out your tendencies under pressure (good and bad), being in contention to win is addicting.

 

Love this!!

 

Are you mostly self-taught? Or did you take consistent lessons?

 

I was self-taught up until October of this past year. I didn't seek out an instructor to reinvent the wheel or anything, just wanted some new ideas and to better understand my misses under pressure and how to make a correction on the very next swing.