Is Bent Grass Becoming Obsolete?

[ArtMBgolf]

The problems with hybrid bermuda grass greens in the Carolinas this past spring, were due to a cold winter, a warmup thaw, then deep freezing again.

 

Most of the Myrtle Beach courses that installed new greens this summer used Sunday Hybrid, possibly because it seemed to hold up well at the few

courses with it. Most of these upgraded courses already needed new greens to replace old bermuda or a failed hybrid they had.

Courses that already had good hybrid greens, patched bad spots. The few courses with covers had no problems.

 

I think southern courses with good bent greens will continue as long as they are good, but when it's time to upgrade they will choose a hybrid.

The level of course and location will always be a factor.

 

Two years ago, Crow Creek in MB replaced bent with a new bent called V8, that is supposed to take the heat. I don't know yet if they can take the heat.

 

Well maintained hybrid greens putt as good as bent, but they seem to break less as the ball dies at the cup.

Played Crow Creek 2 weeks ago got in 13 holes before the rain. Those greens were smooth and slick. As slick as those greens were you had to be careful where you positioned the ball. It had been so long since I had played there I forgot the contours of the greens had quite a few 5 foot comebacks which I do not fear.

 

When Crow Creek upgraded to the new bent, they also added more contour, where you saw the steep plateaus, which I thought were too short and steep that

would affect mowing.

 

Pine Lakes overseeds the paspalum greens heavy, since iy can't take the cold. They also have paspalum fairways.

Rivers Edge replaced bent with paspalum. After 2-3 years of paspalum they have switch to Sunday Hybrid. The paspalum would not green up in time

for the spring peak season. IMO paspalum putts no better than old bermuda, unless maybe it's cut to 11+ stimp, like they had at the PGA when it was at Kiawah.

[bladehunter]

First off OP. Wish I’d known you were in town ( I’m in spartanburg) I’d have had you over to play with us one afternoon. I have some good Bermuda for you to sample over this way.

 

Thanks man, I almost posted on GOLFWRX to see if I could find a game in the area. Turned out I got an invite to Muskgrove Mill which was very cool, and also played Furman.I'm in South FL now (just moved here), but I'll reach put next time I'm up in Greenville visiting the MIL.

 

Absolutely. Musgrove mill was a good catch. Nice place for sure.

 

Definitely reach out next time. I can show you a great mountain course and a couple other good tracts close by the Greenville spartanburg area.

[bladehunter]

The problems with hybrid bermuda grass greens in the Carolinas this past spring, were due to a cold winter, a warmup thaw, then deep freezing again.

 

Most of the Myrtle Beach courses that installed new greens this summer used Sunday Hybrid, possibly because it seemed to hold up well at the few

courses with it. Most of these upgraded courses already needed new greens to replace old bermuda or a failed hybrid they had.

Courses that already had good hybrid greens, patched bad spots. The few courses with covers had no problems.

 

I think southern courses with good bent greens will continue as long as they are good, but when it's time to upgrade they will choose a hybrid.

The level of course and location will always be a factor.

 

Two years ago, Crow Creek in MB replaced bent with a new bent called V8, that is supposed to take the heat. I don't know yet if they can take the heat.

 

Well maintained hybrid greens putt as good as bent, but they seem to break less as the ball dies at the cup.

Played Crow Creek 2 weeks ago got in 13 holes before the rain. Those greens were smooth and slick. As slick as those greens were you had to be careful where you positioned the ball. It had been so long since I had played there I forgot the contours of the greens had quite a few 5 foot comebacks which I do not fear.

 

When Crow Creek upgraded to the new bent, they also added more contour, where you saw the steep plateaus, which I thought were too short and steep that

would affect mowing.

 

Pine Lakes overseeds the paspalum greens heavy, since iy can't take the cold. They also have paspalum fairways.

Rivers Edge replaced bent with paspalum. After 2-3 years of paspalum they have switch to Sunday Hybrid. The paspalum would not green up in time

for the spring peak season. IMO paspalum putts no better than old bermuda, unless maybe it's cut to 11+ stimp, like they had at the PGA when it was at Kiawah.

 

When you say “ old Bermuda “ .... I bet that’s what my course has. Grainy in the summer. Great when it’s dormant , and incredibly durable ? Like you cant kill it durable ?!

 

Just curious those that know. I’ve always heard the new strains of Bermuda to be a little more susceptible to cold etc. ours get covered for bad weather. But otherwise I think you could pour gas on a section in the summer and it would grow over. lol.

[ArtMBgolf]

 

When you say " old Bermuda " .... I bet that's what my course has. Grainy in the summer. Great when it's dormant , and incredibly durable ? Like you cant kill it durable ?!

 

Just curious those that know. I've always heard the new strains of Bermuda to be a little more susceptible to cold etc. ours get covered for bad weather. But otherwise I think you could pour gas on a section in the summer and it would grow over. lol.

 

Old Bermuda is usually Tifdwarf Bermuda. On an old bermuda course, the greens might also be invaded by common fairway bermuda.

 

I think the new hybrids are more fragile to cold weather, but that may also be due to not being in place very long on some courses, to get the roots deep.

[ThinkingPlus]

When you say " old Bermuda " .... I bet that's what my course has. Grainy in the summer. Great when it's dormant , and incredibly durable ? Like you cant kill it durable ?!

 

Just curious those that know. I've always heard the new strains of Bermuda to be a little more susceptible to cold etc. ours get covered for bad weather. But otherwise I think you could pour gas on a section in the summer and it would grow over. lol.

 

Old Bermuda is usually Tifdwarf Bermuda. On an old bermuda course, the greens might also be invaded by common fairway bermuda.

 

I think the new hybrids are more fragile to cold weather, but that may also be due to not being in place very long on some courses, to get the roots deep.

I would assume "old bermuda" was common bermuda. The stuff on all the courses in the south pre-hybrid. I think Tifdwarf was the first or one of the first hybrids. Common bermuda is super grainy and I've never seen it faster than maybe 8 on the stimp. Into the grain putts literally look like they come back to you. I could be all wrong here though. I am certainly not an expert.

[smashdn]

I really feel for the clubs/supers in places like Dallas and the Carolinas where there is really no clear direction to go. You can lose bent in the summer and lose bermuda in the winter. Also I have heard there is often a argument at clubs between the younger guys who would like really good greens in the summer voting for bermuda and older guys that travel to cooler climates during the summer who prefer bent because they think it will be better fall-winter-spring when they play the most golf. We are really fortunate to be able to have good bent greens with very low risk of serious damage due to factors out of our control.

 

I would like to putt on a green with one of the new zoysia strains mentioned earlier. Sounds like that could be a good solution. Wonder how zoysia greens will play when dormant? I'm still shocked at how good the new bermuda hybrids are when dormant when a course has resources to take good care of them.

First off OP. Wish I'd known you were in town ( I'm in spartanburg) I'd have had you over to play with us one afternoon. I have some good Bermuda for you to sample over this way.

 

 

I think maintenance cost is the reason. Like several said. Around 1996-1999ish I worked at a private 36 hole course in the maintenance crew. I've done it all from sand pro to gang mowing rough. And everything in between.

 

That course had penncross bent , and during the summer afternoons I had the pleasure of being one of the syringe guys. I literally drove around all afternoon looking for hotspots and dragging hose and watering to keep them alive. Or at least that's my description. I don't pretend to be an expert. But a lot of effort went into just keeping those greens alive in the above 90 degree heat and humidity. You could see the color and shine on high and hot spots .

 

Then There was the time an ice storm hit unannounced and we hadn't covered the greens. They rented all the torpedo heaters in town and generators to run them. We sat them up and blew heat across the greens to thaw them out. For 2 days on 36 holes. And lost parts of 7 greens anyway.

 

Now was that because of poor practices ? I have no clue. I just did what I was told. But I do know from being a member for 4 years at a club with Bermuda 30 min from the club with bent that they have had to do none of that. I've never seen a syringe guy on any green and they only cover the greens for snow or ice storms. Not air temp.

 

 

Our area is the worst part of the country for growing grass. Too cold for warm season grass and too hot for cool season grass.

Over here in Charlotte several courses with burmuda grass lost their greens last winter and one course had to close for 6 months to re seed, sprig and sod. They lost most greens and fairways.

 

On the other hand greens that are bent grass are a mess by September because of the amount of water it takes to keep them alive through out the hot summer months. The greens that take short iron shots just get pounded because of how soft they are.

 

Overall Id say the burmuda or hybrids do much better than the bent grass does.

 

Right there with you. About the time that the fairways around here are finally getting full and nice the bent greens are taking a dive. The publics just have to let them grow a bit and water the bajeezus out of them to keep them alive in the hottest part of the year.

 

Worst case scenario is lots of rain and lots of heat. Disease and fungus problems. And it can happen overnight seemingly.

[jli2636]

Unfortunately around here in mid Missouri bent is the only thing that will work for the greens I think. Summer temps can regularly get into the high 90’s-100’s and winters can be below zero. Almost all of the fairways around here are Zoysia with a few courses sprinkled around that have bent.

[nocarts83]

Fortunately the new hybrids play nearly like bent, but are much more heat/drought tolerant. Most courses here in N. TX have replaced bent grass, which just couldn't take the summer heat. No more fans around greens, yay!

 

I do miss playing off bent grass fairways, but unless have to head north, I likely won't see those again.

 

They're ugly, but those fans are awesome for cooling off golfers, too.

[BIG STU]

When you say " old Bermuda " .... I bet that's what my course has. Grainy in the summer. Great when it's dormant , and incredibly durable ? Like you cant kill it durable ?!

 

Just curious those that know. I've always heard the new strains of Bermuda to be a little more susceptible to cold etc. ours get covered for bad weather. But otherwise I think you could pour gas on a section in the summer and it would grow over. lol.

 

Old Bermuda is usually Tifdwarf Bermuda. On an old bermuda course, the greens might also be invaded by common fairway bermuda.

 

I think the new hybrids are more fragile to cold weather, but that may also be due to not being in place very long on some courses, to get the roots deep.

I would assume "old bermuda" was common bermuda. The stuff on all the courses in the south pre-hybrid. I think Tifdwarf was the first or one of the first hybrids. Common bermuda is super grainy and I've never seen it faster than maybe 8 on the stimp. Into the grain putts literally look like they come back to you. I could be all wrong here though. I am certainly not an expert.

It could also be the old strad of 328 Tifton Bermuda--- A lot of public courses had it in the 70s and 80s in the Piedmont area of NC--- 328 was also dense and you did not have to play a lot of break mostly firm the putts in.

[BNGL]

Unfortunately around here in mid Missouri bent is the only thing that will work for the greens I think. Summer temps can regularly get into the high 90s-100s and winters can be below zero. Almost all of the fairways around here are Zoysia with a few courses sprinkled around that have bent.

 

There’s a place in Saint Louis called Gateway National (I think it’s this place) but has bent wall to wall. One of the finest conditioned clubs I have ever played.

[Almostscratchonce]

Unfortunately around here in mid Missouri bent is the only thing that will work for the greens I think. Summer temps can regularly get into the high 90’s-100’s and winters can be below zero. Almost all of the fairways around here are Zoysia with a few courses sprinkled around that have bent.

 

There’s a place in Saint Louis called Gateway National (I think it’s this place) but has bent wall to wall. One of the finest conditioned clubs I have ever played.

 

Gateway is a great track and usually good shape. Given your resume of places seen/played, you must've caught it in a condition that I've never seen there to warrant that kind of statement. Granted, I'm on the other side of the state now and haven't been there in a couple of years...

[BNGL]

Unfortunately around here in mid Missouri bent is the only thing that will work for the greens I think. Summer temps can regularly get into the high 90’s-100’s and winters can be below zero. Almost all of the fairways around here are Zoysia with a few courses sprinkled around that have bent.

 

There’s a place in Saint Louis called Gateway National (I think it’s this place) but has bent wall to wall. One of the finest conditioned clubs I have ever played.

 

Gateway is a great track and usually good shape. Given your resume of places seen/played, you must've caught it in a condition that I've never seen there to warrant that kind of statement. Granted, I'm on the other side of the state now and haven't been there in a couple of years...

 

Knowing the work it takes to maintain bent especially in the summers, I was thoroughly impressed. Yes I’m a difficult person, but I’m not above recognizing hard work and dedication to provide exceptional conditions in adverse environmental conditions. I’ve only been there once, and it was in terrific shape! I would play there again if I was in the St. Louis area.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

Not in the land of snowy winters.

[BNGL]

http://gatewaynational.com/golf

 

Link to gateway National if anyone is interested.

[mallrat]

Unfortunately around here in mid Missouri bent is the only thing that will work for the greens I think. Summer temps can regularly get into the high 90’s-100’s and winters can be below zero. Almost all of the fairways around here are Zoysia with a few courses sprinkled around that have bent.

 

There’s a place in Saint Louis called Gateway National (I think it’s this place) but has bent wall to wall. One of the finest conditioned clubs I have ever played.

 

We are basically wall to wall bent on both courses. The Fazio has fescue for native areas and Nicklaus has some KBG mixed in with the rough. I forget the varietals but there is little crossover

[augustgolf]

When you say " old Bermuda " .... I bet that's what my course has. Grainy in the summer. Great when it's dormant , and incredibly durable ? Like you cant kill it durable ?!

 

Just curious those that know. I've always heard the new strains of Bermuda to be a little more susceptible to cold etc. ours get covered for bad weather. But otherwise I think you could pour gas on a section in the summer and it would grow over. lol.

 

Old Bermuda is usually Tifdwarf Bermuda. On an old bermuda course, the greens might also be invaded by common fairway bermuda.

 

I think the new hybrids are more fragile to cold weather, but that may also be due to not being in place very long on some courses, to get the roots deep.

I would assume "old bermuda" was common bermuda. The stuff on all the courses in the south pre-hybrid. I think Tifdwarf was the first or one of the first hybrids. Common bermuda is super grainy and I've never seen it faster than maybe 8 on the stimp. Into the grain putts literally look like they come back to you. I could be all wrong here though. I am certainly not an expert.

It could also be the old strad of 328 Tifton Bermuda--- A lot of public courses had it in the 70s and 80s in the Piedmont area of NC--- 328 was also dense and you did not have to play a lot of break mostly firm the putts in.

http://www.usga.org/articles/2012/11/tifgreen-bermudagrass-past-present-and-future-21474851048.html

 

Excellent article. Should be required reading for every golfee.

[ThinkingPlus]

When you say " old Bermuda " .... I bet that's what my course has. Grainy in the summer. Great when it's dormant , and incredibly durable ? Like you cant kill it durable ?!

 

Just curious those that know. I've always heard the new strains of Bermuda to be a little more susceptible to cold etc. ours get covered for bad weather. But otherwise I think you could pour gas on a section in the summer and it would grow over. lol.

 

Old Bermuda is usually Tifdwarf Bermuda. On an old bermuda course, the greens might also be invaded by common fairway bermuda.

 

I think the new hybrids are more fragile to cold weather, but that may also be due to not being in place very long on some courses, to get the roots deep.

I would assume "old bermuda" was common bermuda. The stuff on all the courses in the south pre-hybrid. I think Tifdwarf was the first or one of the first hybrids. Common bermuda is super grainy and I've never seen it faster than maybe 8 on the stimp. Into the grain putts literally look like they come back to you. I could be all wrong here though. I am certainly not an expert.

It could also be the old strad of 328 Tifton Bermuda--- A lot of public courses had it in the 70s and 80s in the Piedmont area of NC--- 328 was also dense and you did not have to play a lot of break mostly firm the putts in.

http://www.usga.org/...1474851048.html

 

Excellent article. Should be required reading for every golfee.

Agreed. Read that the other day. I stumbled upon that article when looking up the grass on the greens for the Australian PGA that was just played. Noticed how the pros were struggling on some of the greens. Also noticed how the greens looked like a patchwork of different grain directions. No rhyme or reason. The article on 328 Tifgreen explains what I was seeing I think. Mutated strains formed the patchwork. Different blade sizes and grain direction. Amazed the guys putted as good as they did.

[mallrat]

Anybody have any experience with Monaco Bermuda?

[smashdn]

There was a private course north of Louisville that was all rye with the exception of the greens. It was beautiful but eventually converted to zoysia. Zoysia's a nice enough grass but nothing like a cool season grass fairway.

[Almostscratchonce]

Unfortunately around here in mid Missouri bent is the only thing that will work for the greens I think. Summer temps can regularly get into the high 90’s-100’s and winters can be below zero. Almost all of the fairways around here are Zoysia with a few courses sprinkled around that have bent.

 

There’s a place in Saint Louis called Gateway National (I think it’s this place) but has bent wall to wall. One of the finest conditioned clubs I have ever played.

 

Gateway is a great track and usually good shape. Given your resume of places seen/played, you must've caught it in a condition that I've never seen there to warrant that kind of statement. Granted, I'm on the other side of the state now and haven't been there in a couple of years...

 

Knowing the work it takes to maintain bent especially in the summers, I was thoroughly impressed. Yes I’m a difficult person, but I’m not above recognizing hard work and dedication to provide exceptional conditions in adverse environmental conditions. I’ve only been there once, and it was in terrific shape! I would play there again if I was in the St. Louis area.

 

Well said, and agree with the amount of work that it takes to keep it in good shape. Was just slightly taken aback thinking you were putting it in the same company (condition-wise) as some of the elite places you've played.

[spinnywedge]

I'm in North GA/Metro Atlanta. Of the 6 or so courses around where I live, I'd say more than half are still bent. Of the ones that are champion bermuda, I can only think of one that had it originally. 2 of them that have champion bermuda now are really hard to chip around because the ball just won't stop anywhere. I love the bent at my home course, but it definitely takes a beating during the summer. Can't ever seem to keep them really fast for a long period of time.

[dpb5031]

I just moved to FL, but the course I belonged to for 24 years in Central NJ had a major Bermuda grass infestation issue. Somehow, common Bermuda crept in and proliferated.

 

Several clubs in NJ that I know of have been converting portions of their practice ranges to Bermuda (not sure which strain) with great success for use during the heat, humidity, and heavy traffic of summer.

[mallrat]

What type of traffic are you guys talking about to get the wear you are describing? We are around 45k rounds a year between both courses (basically nothing). My last course was 70k a year but that was Poa.

[bladehunter]

I just moved to FL, but the course I belonged to for 24 years in Central NJ had a major Bermuda grass infestation issue. Somehow, common Bermuda crept in and proliferated.

 

Several clubs in NJ that I know of have been converting portions of their practice ranges to Bermuda (not sure which strain) with great success for use during the heat, humidity, and heavy traffic of summer.

 

Common Bermuda will grow across a cart path in the south if it rains every 4th day. Lol.

[bladehunter]

When you say " old Bermuda " .... I bet that's what my course has. Grainy in the summer. Great when it's dormant , and incredibly durable ? Like you cant kill it durable ?!

 

Just curious those that know. I've always heard the new strains of Bermuda to be a little more susceptible to cold etc. ours get covered for bad weather. But otherwise I think you could pour gas on a section in the summer and it would grow over. lol.

 

Old Bermuda is usually Tifdwarf Bermuda. On an old bermuda course, the greens might also be invaded by common fairway bermuda.

 

I think the new hybrids are more fragile to cold weather, but that may also be due to not being in place very long on some courses, to get the roots deep.

I would assume "old bermuda" was common bermuda. The stuff on all the courses in the south pre-hybrid. I think Tifdwarf was the first or one of the first hybrids. Common bermuda is super grainy and I've never seen it faster than maybe 8 on the stimp. Into the grain putts literally look like they come back to you. I could be all wrong here though. I am certainly not an expert.

 

Yep. Spot on. Only exception on speed is this time of yeas when it goes dormant and is cool at night. It’s pretty darn fast at the moment. But mid summer ? You can’t get it to roll to save your life. And so much grain a straight putt doesn’t exist.

[razor_1]

From Richmond, VA south and west to the Appalachian Mt.'s bent grass is obsolete. I said it in another thread, bent in those areas is like watching standard def TV. The new strains of bermuda are high definition. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to see Augusta change to hybrid bermuda. Although with an early April Masters and limited play, a good argument can be made to sticking to bent. FYI, Augusta used to have bermuda greens. Off the top of my head, don't think they changed to bent until early 70's.

[BNGL]

From Richmond, VA south and west to the Appalachian Mt.'s bent grass is obsolete. I said it in another thread, bent in those areas is like watching standard def TV. The new strains of bermuda are high definition. It wouldn't surprise me a bit to see Augusta change to hybrid bermuda. Although with an early April Masters and limited play, a good argument can be made to sticking to bent. FYI, Augusta used to have bermuda greens. Off the top of my head, don't think they changed to bent until early 70's.

 

1980 was the last year for bermuda greens at Augusta.