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Miura 1957 Small Blade/Baby Blade enthusiasts thread! (Lots of enabling and physics lessons inside)


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Here’s my commentary on the forgiveness of the long irons. You have to be out of your bloody mind if you think these things are forgiving! I still play to a tournament +3 handicap. On the range this morning, how many times do you think I shanked or sculled my hybrid? How many times do you think I miss- hit a hybrid and it still carried over 200 yards.

The answer is zero and every time.

 

With the one iron however, I literally cold shanked A couple of shots. Any shot hit slightly fat (quarter inch) Would instantly lose 10 to 20% of Carry distance. As in it would fall out of the sky at 180 to 190

 

Let’s say you had to carry a pond into a par five from a slightly bare lie or even a slight divot. It would literally never cross my mind even once ever even under the most intense tournament pressure ever ever ever to lay up if I had a hybrid in the bag. If I had to hit a 1 iron or a two iron from the same lie I would Lay up 100% of the time.

 

I love these irons. I think they are very fun to hit. I think they look amazing in the bag. But,they are basically unuseable from the 4 iron down though. Of the guys that I’ve played professional golf with at every level below the PGA tour, not one single guy has a one or a two in a blade anymore. They have clubs that they know they can miss hit and still hit high and soft.

 

The thing that deninny seems to miss again and again and again when he goes on his forgiveness speaches, Is that certain shots are supposed to be hit thin. That’s why hybrids make those shots so much easier. You’re genuinely not trying to hit the sweet spot. I can skull A highbred a fraction of a millimetre below the equator of a ball and it will still carry 200 yards. Dispersion at that point is not an issue, all that matters is can you carry it over a hazard.

 

Hell, even Tiger and Rory carry a Fivewood a lot of the time. Why do you think that is?

 

I was hitting the one iron side-by-side with my UTI 2 iron. I never hit one shot less than 230 yards carry with the tailor-made and my absolute best shots barely got to 230 with the Miura. Dispersion looks like the difference between a scratch golfer and a 25 handicap as well .

 

 

If you like these irons , play them. That’s all there is to it. But if you think it’s not costing you shots, I’m here to tell you it is. You can take the word of an X tour pro that still plays to a +3 ( along with every single engineer that works for every single research and development firm at every single golf manufacturing company in the world ) Or you can take deninnys word.

 

Lol! All in good fun Deninny! I’m easily crazier than you in many other ways so I probably don’t have a leg to stand on !

 

 

You’re just asking to get hit with some made up physics and faux science.

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You’re just asking to get hit with some made up physics and faux science.

 

Agreed. And on that note, I asked earlier but I'm going to ask again.... is there a mod that will split this thread and take out any posts that have the ridiculous "physics" debates in them and put them in some other section? Posts like isaac's are very useful to people who want to learn about how the irons play and feel, but not all the posts in this thread do a good job of staying on topic.

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You’re just asking to get hit with some made up physics and faux science.

 

Agreed. And on that note, I asked earlier but I'm going to ask again.... is there a mod that will split this thread and take out any posts that have the ridiculous "physics" debates in them and put them in some other section? Posts like isaac's are very useful to people who want to learn about how the irons play and feel, but not all the posts in this thread do a good job of staying on topic.

 

This will get me flames I’m sure. But I’m not a physics nerd at all.

 

But. It’s kind of hard to watch someone denounce the info given and not give a proper argument to say why it’s wrong. If you or any other physics experts want to give the rest of the story. I’d love to read it.

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Here’s my commentary on the forgiveness of the long irons. You have to be out of your bloody mind if you think these things are forgiving! I still play to a tournament +3 handicap. On the range this morning, how many times do you think I shanked or sculled my hybrid? How many times do you think I miss- hit a hybrid and it still carried over 200 yards.

The answer is zero and every time.

 

With the one iron however, I literally cold shanked A couple of shots. Any shot hit slightly fat (quarter inch) Would instantly lose 10 to 20% of Carry distance. As in it would fall out of the sky at 180 to 190

 

Let’s say you had to carry a pond 210 yards into a par five from a slightly bare lie or even a slight divot. It would literally never cross my mind even once ever even under the most intense tournament pressure ever ever ever to lay up if I had a hybrid in the bag. If I had to hit a 1 iron or a two iron from the same lie I would Lay up 100% of the time.

 

I love these irons. I think they are very fun to hit. I think they look amazing in the bag. But,they are basically unuseable from the 4 iron down though. Of the guys that I’ve played professional golf with at every level below the PGA tour, not one single guy has a one or a two in a blade anymore. They have clubs that they know they can miss hit and still hit high and soft.

 

The thing that deninny seems to miss again and again and again when he goes on his forgiveness speaches, Is that certain shots are supposed to be hit thin. That’s why hybrids make those shots so much easier. You’re genuinely not trying to hit the sweet spot. I can skull A highbred a fraction of a millimetre below the equator of a ball and it will still carry 200 yards. Dispersion at that point is not an issue, all that matters is can you carry it over a hazard.

 

Hell, even Tiger and Rory carry a Fivewood a lot of the time. Why do you think that is?

 

I was hitting the one iron side-by-side with my UTI 2 iron. I never hit one shot less than 230 yards carry with the tailor-made and my absolute best shots barely got to 230 with the Miura. Dispersion looks like the difference between a scratch golfer and a 25 handicap as well .

 

 

If you like these irons , play them. That’s all there is to it. But if you think it’s not costing you shots, I’m here to tell you it is. You can take the word of an X tour pro that still plays to a +3 ( along with every single engineer that works for every single research and development firm at every single golf manufacturing company in the world ) Or you can take deninnys word.

 

Lol! All in good fun Deninny! I’m easily crazier than you in many other ways so I probably don’t have a leg to stand on !

 

Isaac.

 

 

Now you and I both know that you aren’t hitting a 2 iron from 210 ..... go on and smoke that 5 iron and 2 putt for bird. Lol.

 

 

 

I don’t disagree with you totally. I carry and love a 5 wood myself. But I don’t think a 2 iron is costing me anything but maybe birdie looks on par 5s.

 

Don’t you think it somewhat just comes down to what suits your eye ? I don’t know if I buy forgiveness as much as I do the placebo of its idea. As in. My brain doesn’t like a hybrid for anything except the 18 degree one I own that hits low bullets. And is all fade. If I stood over a normal one that launched high etc. I’d think “ don’t hook it “ and likely never hit it as reliable as the long iron. But I could stand over that 5 iron and think “ it won’t go left “ and it virtually never would. If you hit it anywhere near the middle it’s a wash. You can’t really compare shanking a 1 iron you haven’t really used much to missing a hybrid and it still going. A plus 3 isn’t shanking an iron in play more than 1-2 tjmes a year is he ?

 

Like I said. You’re not off the planet. But i think peoples fears and likes makes more difference than the small measure of forgiveness ever can.

 

Before someone throws up the “ zealot “ flag. I’ve played the i500 4-Pw for almost 3 months. I’ve tested all around this. There’s draw backs to every angle

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Hey

The title has "lots of enabling physics inside" Lol.

 

Btw, thinning long irons is not good physics nor swing objective of long irons. Shallowing? yes. Thin, never.

 

And no, I don't play BB, they're too rich for my swing. Mint & classic MB's will do thank you.

 

If you’re in a divot, or a bare lie with wet ground, Intentionally hitting the ball a little bit thin with a hybrid is sometimes you’re only play if you want to actually hit the ball any kind of distance. I agree, trying to play that same shot with a long iron is not really possible.

 

That’s why I said baby blades are unforgiving in the long irons. To me, “ forgiving “ Means any club that allows you to hit a functional shot with less than a perfect strike...

 

While trying to carry a water hazard, I’d rather be yelling :”go a little!” than :”SKIP!”

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You're just asking to get hit with some made up physics and faux science.

 

Agreed. And on that note, I asked earlier but I'm going to ask again.... is there a mod that will split this thread and take out any posts that have the ridiculous "physics" debates in them and put them in some other section? Posts like isaac's are very useful to people who want to learn about how the irons play and feel, but not all the posts in this thread do a good job of staying on topic.

 

This will get me flames I'm sure. But I'm not a physics nerd at all.

 

But. It's kind of hard to watch someone denounce the info given and not give a proper argument to say why it's wrong. If you or any other physics experts want to give the rest of the story. I'd love to read it.

 

^^^This!

 

It's always the same, just a small flock of geese landing in a thread, pooping pathetic childish comments, then flying away.

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If you like these irons , play them. That's all there is to it. But if you think it's not costing you shots, I'm here to tell you it is. You can take the word of an X tour pro that still plays to a +3 ( along with every single engineer that works for every single research and development firm at every single golf manufacturing company in the world ) Or you can take deninnys word.

 

I don't think the opinion of an "X tour pro that still plays to a +3" is all that valid to me (or 99% of the golfing population at large). I have *no doubt* that playing the small blades costs you shots. I'm certain of it. As you say, you can hit a hybrid with 100% certainty in a particular situation, and the small blade is not automatic like that.

 

But as a ~10 handicap...the hybrid is no certain proposition. If I'm faced with the same 210 carry over water that you are, it doesn't matter what club I hit, 80% of the time I'm going in the water if I go for it. I'm actually probably better off hitting a 3i than a hybrid for a reason that you won't understand - if I pure the 3i, I'm on the green. If I mis-hit it, there's a good chance I don't even get it far enough to reach the hazard. If I pure the hybrid, I'm on the green. If mis-hit it...I'm in the water.

 

When you suck as bad as I do, a bad miss can be better than a small miss...

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This will get me flames I'm sure. But I'm not a physics nerd at all.

 

But. It's kind of hard to watch someone denounce the info given and not give a proper argument to say why it's wrong. If you or any other physics experts want to give the rest of the story. I'd love to read it.

 

Honestly, there's no point. I think I brought up a couple items that deninny was leaving out of the equation a couple pages back, and his response is basically "carney sham, forgiveness isn't real", to which other people reply "well I'm not educated in it, but that makes sense to me!!!". All I'm asking for is the thread to be split so that discussion can continue elsewhere. I don't plan on participating.

 

It's always the same, just a small flock of geese landing in a thread, pooping pathetic childish comments, then flying away.

 

I hope you see the irony in this post.

 

FWIW I actually play these clubs, and have probably posted more on-topic useful info in this thread than you have. (no, I don't have time to go verify this. if you want to prove me wrong, go for it)

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Hey

The title has "lots of enabling physics inside" Lol.

 

Btw, thinning long irons is not good physics nor swing objective of long irons. Shallowing? yes. Thin, never.

 

And no, I don't play BB, they're too rich for my swing. Mint & classic MB's will do thank you.

 

If you’re in a divot, or a bare lie with wet ground, Intentionally hitting the ball a little bit thin with a hybrid is sometimes you’re only play if you want to actually hit the ball any kind of distance. I agree, trying to play that same shot with a long iron is not really possible.

 

That’s why I said baby blades are unforgiving in the long irons. To me, “ forgiving “ Means any club that allows you to hit a functional shot with less than a perfect strike...

 

While trying to carry a water hazard, I’d rather be yelling :”go a little!” than :”SKIP!”

 

I get it, fact is all traditional long irons are hard to hit. Big thing to me is you have swing them like a 5i and not a 5W, which is different. I carry #3i & #5W and if it 's windy drop in a #2 but long irons need practice unto themselves to be real useful.

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This will get me flames I'm sure. But I'm not a physics nerd at all.

 

But. It's kind of hard to watch someone denounce the info given and not give a proper argument to say why it's wrong. If you or any other physics experts want to give the rest of the story. I'd love to read it.

 

Honestly, there's no point. I think I brought up a couple items that deninny was leaving out of the equation a couple pages back, and his response is basically "carney sham, forgiveness isn't real", to which other people reply "well I'm not educated in it, but that makes sense to me!!!". All I'm asking for is the thread to be split so that discussion can continue elsewhere. I don't plan on participating.

 

It's always the same, just a small flock of geese landing in a thread, pooping pathetic childish comments, then flying away.

 

I hope you see the irony in this post.

 

FWIW I actually play these clubs, and have probably posted more on-topic useful info in this thread than you have. (no, I don't have time to go verify this. if you want to prove me wrong, go for it)

 

First off. What happened to huddledtoast ?????? At least you kept the pic. For my money one of the best in the site. That look. Lol.

 

And second. I’m genuinely interested. I knew you played the BB. And I’m not defending either theories. I have my own based on nothing but what my eye sees and hands feel. At the end of the day that all I think matters. More mind involved than people want to think.

 

Anyway. I know of one such study. I’ll have to find it and re-read it etc .... I may do that in this snow killed day. Lol

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I haven't really focused on this thread for quite a while, but it's good to see I haven't missed anything. Still the same old thread. :D

 

I've been playing the BBs for several months now, and tend to agree with almost everything said here:

 

- They're more forgiving than you expect in non-traditional ways (less drag through rough, less drag through turf, added forgiveness on heel strikes due to the extra mass added to the oversize hosel, etc.)

 

- They're also not particularly forgiving

 

- From the 4 down (for me), they're significantly more challenging

 

- Once you get used to the look at address, everything else starts to look a bit obscene. Even many players cavities just look a bit chunky

 

- Overall, they're EXTREMELY fun to play, and beautiful to look at. They feel great, and are infinitely satisfying to hit.

 

- There are very good reasons that we don't see them in a single PGA tour pro's bag (even the unsponsored ones)

 

On another note - for the most part, my set is very consistent - EXCEPT for the 6 iron. I need to check the specs or something, but the amount of flyers I get with the 6, where they end up 20 yards further than expect is uncanny.

 

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I'm an engineer and have been tinkering with clubs for 20+ years now, and one thing I've learned is to never go tick for tack with guys (like deninny) that are off the rails. It just brings you down. His "carney sham" nonsense regarding things like gear effect and MOI helping forgiveness removes all motivation (although I did post that video link explaining how gear effect works).

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I'm an engineer and have been tinkering with clubs for 20+ years now, and one thing I've learned is to never go tick for tack with guys (like deninny) that are off the rails. It just brings you down. His "carney sham" nonsense regarding things like gear effect and MOI helping forgiveness removes all motivation (although I did post that video link explaining how gear effect works).

 

 

i shouldnt but i must ask why ?....

 

If its so solid one way how can the other side not be squashed instantly ? math is math as they say....

 

 

 

Im not picking a fight with you friend... More making a point.. That its not as black and white as either side wants to say ..thats why you cant successfully argue it either way

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I'm an engineer and have been tinkering with clubs for 20+ years now, and one thing I've learned is to never go tick for tack with guys (like deninny) that are off the rails. It just brings you down. His "carney sham" nonsense regarding things like gear effect and MOI helping forgiveness removes all motivation (although I did post that video link explaining how gear effect works).

 

 

i shouldnt but i must ask why ?....

 

If its so solid one way how can the other side not be squashed instantly ? math is math as they say....

 

 

 

Im not picking a fight with you friend... More making a point.. That its not as black and white as either side wants to say ..thats why you cant successfully argue it either way

 

i dont want to speak for ness but imo -

maybe because deninny is so invested in his "science" that its obviously impossible to persuade him otherwise? as george costanza once said "it's not a lie if YOU believe it"

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I play the baby blades. I'm an okay player. Won my club c this year with the baby blades. I haven't read most of this thread but get what Issac is saying.

 

I think the ball is all about spin control and simply responds to where, and how hard the club hits certain spots relative to the target.

 

I can't follow all the MOI, dplane, trackman stuff.

 

If you have a bare lie, or in a slight depression/divot, you are limited to parts of the ball you can contact. The lower part of a hybrid face can contact the required part of ball with more oomph and necessary speed to put the correct spin on the ball.

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To be clear, I actually have a set of these clubs and play them. I have basically useed varying degrees of blades most of my life. I’m also a realist though.

 

In my opinion, one of the top three improvements in golf club technology over the last 30 years is easier to hit/elevate 15° to 23° Clubs.

At the same time though, I’m all about playing whatever you like.

 

So here’s a question: when is too small too small? Why not make even smaller blades then the baby blades so that you can get even more of the “forgiveness benefits “.

 

I think for a lot of players, their miss is not so much the bottom point but the left to right point. If you miss a game improvement club 1 inch on the heel, you still get a functional shot that could get airborne and move towards your target. If I do the same thing with a baby blade, I’m quite literally going to reverse shank it into my own kneecap.

 

There has to be a point of diminishing returns, no?

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I love the small blades, but I tend to agree that they're impractical for many people in the long irons off the turf. For me, the 5i is my limit, and I go to CB202's for a 3i and 4i.

 

I keep the 2i in the bag but only for specific tee shots - my home course has three ~300 yard Par 4's where the BB 2i is the perfect club off the tee. There's a very small window to put the ball in sort of the 225 yard zone. If I hit the 2i perfectly, I can get it in that window. If I mishit the 2i (which I do a lot of the time), I'll be 30 yards short...but also out of trouble. If I mishit a hybrid or wood in the same place, I'll be in the hazards. So the club has a place in the risk:reward hierarchy, but you have to understand what the likely outcomes are going to look like.

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One of my favourite sets.

In a Jones bag too!! Classy

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7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

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I'm an engineer and have been tinkering with clubs for 20+ years now, and one thing I've learned is to never go tick for tack with guys (like deninny) that are off the rails. It just brings you down. His "carney sham" nonsense regarding things like gear effect and MOI helping forgiveness removes all motivation (although I did post that video link explaining how gear effect works).

 

 

i shouldnt but i must ask why ?....

 

If its so solid one way how can the other side not be squashed instantly ? math is math as they say....

 

 

 

Im not picking a fight with you friend... More making a point.. That its not as black and white as either side wants to say ..thats why you cant successfully argue it either way

 

Well, you're right. It is black and white. But you can't argue black vs. white with a blind dude.

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I'm an engineer and have been tinkering with clubs for 20+ years now, and one thing I've learned is to never go tick for tack with guys (like deninny) that are off the rails. It just brings you down. His "carney sham" nonsense regarding things like gear effect and MOI helping forgiveness removes all motivation (although I did post that video link explaining how gear effect works).

 

 

i shouldnt but i must ask why ?....

 

If its so solid one way how can the other side not be squashed instantly ? math is math as they say....

 

 

 

Im not picking a fight with you friend... More making a point.. That its not as black and white as either side wants to say ..thats why you cant successfully argue it either way

 

Like I said, the black cat dude thinks gear effect is a sham. Think about this for a moment: every wood club made over the last 70+ years has face bulge to counter gear effect, so basically he says his science is right and every club made over that time frame has a design error built in. As for not wanting to argue with him, I posted a video showing how gear effect is real so what more do you want me to do?

 

His claim that high MOI is a shame falls into almost the same boat; every large headed driver and CB iron ever made have a design flaw according to your feline friend. And you want me to get into a technical discussion with him? No thanks.

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I'm an engineer and have been tinkering with clubs for 20+ years now, and one thing I've learned is to never go tick for tack with guys (like deninny) that are off the rails. It just brings you down. His "carney sham" nonsense regarding things like gear effect and MOI helping forgiveness removes all motivation (although I did post that video link explaining how gear effect works).

 

 

i shouldnt but i must ask why ?....

 

If its so solid one way how can the other side not be squashed instantly ? math is math as they say....

 

 

 

Im not picking a fight with you friend... More making a point.. That its not as black and white as either side wants to say ..thats why you cant successfully argue it either way

 

Like I said, the black cat dude thinks gear effect is a sham. Think about this for a moment: every wood club made over the last 70+ years has face bulge to counter gear effect, so basically he says his science is right and every club made over that time frame has a design error built in. As for not wanting to argue with him, I posted a video showing how gear effect is real so what more do you want me to do?

 

His claim that high MOI is a shame falls into almost the same boat; every large headed driver and CB iron ever made have a design flaw according to your feline friend. And you want me to get into a technical discussion with him? No thanks.

 

 

You left out that a baby blade 2 iron is longer and more forgiving than anything else. His “science” supposedly proves it. Lol.

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Omg. What a train snopokolypse.

 

Isaac. For what it’s worth I agree with you In the 17-23 degree clubs being the best advance maybe in the game. But it’s just hard to get you’re head around how good you’re swing is when you a play and practice long irons vs the times I’ve ditched them for forgiveness.

 

I think it’s a balance between keeping things tight and the necessity vs the want to do so. If you play mb long irons you have no choice ( as a competitor ) but to keep your swing on point. I hit balls everyday and love to hit wedges. But I always work in 25/30 3 irons off the deck at least. But....... the times I’ve ditched the long irons I find myself not practicing the driving iron or hybrid etc. I don’t really enjoy hitting them and they are supposed to hit themselves. Right ? Lol.

 

Which allllll is my issue. Not the clubs issue. So for me that is part of it. Necessity vs forgiveness I guess. Psycho ? Sure. Always have been. But I have to work with what I have.

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So the one other thing I’ll add here is that I absolutely do find my BBS much easier to hit than any other blade I’ve tried recently - and by a significant margin. Im sure some of it is because they’re fit to my specs (2up, +0.25, Modus 120) - perhaps it’s familiarity, but I find them much, much easier than 730s, MP18s, JPX919 Tour (not Blades, but you get it).

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I've been golfing for 25 years and this is my first season with a set of BBs. I don't take lessons and am mostly self taught. I was so excited to play them that I decided started the season using them. Hit them well but had some local tournaments over the summer so I switched to my MP25s thinking I could use the forgiveness. Once fall golf started, I went back to the BBs. I shot my best round ever and played my best golf ever (same day) with the BBs on December 1st and have now finished the season with my lowest Handicap ever. Sure some things clicked in the swing but my case proves to me at least that I don't give anything up by playing the smaller profile head. if anything controlling shot traj has improved because they're easy to shape.

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I've been golfing for 25 years and this is my first season with a set of BBs. I don't take lessons and am mostly self taught. I was so excited to play them that I decided started the season using them. Hit them well but had some local tournaments over the summer so I switched to my MP25s thinking I could use the forgiveness. Once fall golf started, I went back to the BBs. I shot my best round ever and played my best golf ever (same day) with the BBs on December 1st and have now finished the season with my lowest Handicap ever. Sure some things clicked in the swing but my case proves to me at least that I don't give anything up by playing the smaller profile head. if anything controlling shot traj has improved because they're easy to shape.

 

I had the same experience (except my other clubs were Z765s). I'm not giving up anything, except a little distance, by playing BBs over cavity backs.

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So I too have shot my best round ever with BBs, however I don't know that I can wholeheartedly agree with the fact that we're not giving anything up. I feel like that's true when compared to other blades for sure, and maybe even players cavities. When you put them up against something like a Ping G however, I feel like the level of forgiveness from a distance consistency perspective absolutely adds up over time, and will lead to lower scores. Even if it's nominal, being just 1 yard closer to the hole will add up over time.

 

Now I was never able to get used to the look and offset of Ping Gs (I bought a set when I was determined to play for score rather than to maximize fun) - however I think that was more likely me just not really wanting to commit to them. Given time, I'm sure I, and everyone else who says "I just can't handle the offest" or "I hate the look" could make them work and likely shoot lower scores.

 

That said, there are SO SO many places I can VASTLY improve my game (literally everywhere) - that I don't really believe that I *need* to squeeze that 1 extra stroke per round out of the irons at the cost of the joy they bring me.

 

I'll reconsider once I:

 

- Start averaging 7 fairways per round

- Stop missing 2 putts within 5 feet per round

- Stop flubbing 1 chip per round

- Etc.

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