Irons: Player iron vs Juiced iron (i500, 790, Apex CF, PXG, TMB)

[bladehunter]

so you agree? loft for loft they seem to be the same .

 

Loft for loft pretty much all irons are similar. Length of shaft is a small factor and the face spring effect is also. Spin with some heads too. What I don't agree about is that spring face irons lead to bif distance variation issues.

 

I’d go along with that mostly. Except when dealing with flier lies , or certain teed up lies. Some of these irons if hit highish on the face you get these 10-15 yard longer low spin bombs that just aren’t possible with a sole weighted iron.

[chisag]

What gets forgotten with modern lofts is lateral dispersion. When a modern 8-Iron has the same loft as an old-fashioned 6-iron, the dispersion with the modern 8-iron is pretty much the same as the old 6. I know it’s all relative and with modern courses typically being longer and wider it makes absolutely no difference as long as gapping between clubs is consistent.

 

If that is true and I haven't thought through it... Why have modern lofts? All you do my playing modern lofts if put a hole in the bottom of the bag where you will need to add a wedge.

 

... Not really. As hybrids became more the norm for most instead of a 3 iron, OEMs had to find a way to add that club back in. They weren't just gonna sell one less club in a set. Pretty brilliant to increase the loft gap of short irons at 5* and then narrow the loft gap at 3* and sometimes 2* with the long irons and now you need a Gap Wedge. Voila, we have a full set for sale again. Playing Amp Forged/Fly Z+/Forged Tours I initially just added a 48* wedge to my set when I dropped my 3 iron and the gaps and distances were the same as my old set, just one club more. I hit a 9 instead of an 8. By the time I progressed to P790's I was able to weaken my pw to 46* and instead of a 48, 54 and 60, I am playing a 46, 52 and 58 so my gapping is identical. In fact the 52/58 work better for me than the 54/60 combo so it was a nice bonus.

[easyyy]

What gets forgotten with modern lofts is lateral dispersion. When a modern 8-Iron has the same loft as an old-fashioned 6-iron, the dispersion with the modern 8-iron is pretty much the same as the old 6. I know it’s all relative and with modern courses typically being longer and wider it makes absolutely no difference as long as gapping between clubs is consistent.

 

If that is true and I haven't thought through it... Why have modern lofts? All you do my playing modern lofts if put a hole in the bottom of the bag where you will need to add a wedge.

 

... Not really. As hybrids became more the norm for most instead of a 3 iron, OEMs had to find a way to add that club back in. They weren't just gonna sell one less club in a set. Pretty brilliant to increase the loft gap of short irons at 5* and then narrow the loft gap at 3* and sometimes 2* with the long irons and now you need a Gap Wedge. Voila, we have a full set for sale again. Playing Amp Forged/Fly Z+/Forged Tours I initially just added a 48* wedge to my set when I dropped my 3 iron and the gaps and distances were the same as my old set, just one club more. I hit a 9 instead of an 8. By the time I progressed to P790's I was able to weaken my pw to 46* and instead of a 48, 54 and 60, I am playing a 46, 52 and 58 so my gapping is identical. In fact the 52/58 work better for me than the 54/60 combo so it was a nice bonus.

 

I had a big hole between the PW and the traditional Gap in the speed set.

 

You get proper gapping with that set up? I see the 52* and the 58* but the 46* to the 52*? What are those two yardages for you?

[chisag]

... That is a 6* gap between my wedges. Same as my old 48-54-60. All my new wedge distances are about 5 yards longer so it was an easy transition.

 

58 = 90

52 = 105

46 = 120

 

... The additional 5 yards with all my wedges allow me to hit more 3/4 and 1/2 shots so it has actually improved my game from 120 and in because I rarely hit a full wedge of any kind. What I love most about the 790 wedge is the reduced spin which just gives me more options. I never spin the ball back too far anymore and rarely has it hit, hopped and spun back past the pitch mark. It is usually within a yard or two.

[Golfrnut]

I’ve learned to attack the gapping test in a bit of a different fashion now. I could care less about how far I hit each one at max distance, it’s more of a question if I can hit the stronger lofted iron the same distance and in may cases less than the next higher lofted. I could have a 30 yard gap, but if I can choke down/short swing the next club down that far...I don’t consider it an issue.

 

I also use a 46/52 setup now and the gap is about 20 yards (115 vs 95). If I can hit the 46 high enough to hit close to a 95 yd front pin, then I’m good. If the trajectory gets too low, then it’s bad. Some iron sets I have had to use a 48* to hit it high enough, some are okay at 46*. I stopped being concerned with the number of yards they are spaced apart.

[dannykos]

I'm in this dilemma right now - contemplating going from my MP-52s to the 919 HM.

 

I need to hit some first before I can give an empirical answer, but my sense is that I'll find a 7 iron (with the loft of my current 6 iron) easier to hit than the old 6 iron. My brain is telling me that the shaft length is what is making the difference, although in reality it's probably marginal. It may well be that in fact the loft itself is what makes the most difference in ability to strike cleanly, in which case I'm stuffed.

 

All I do know is that as I'm getting older, fatter, and less flexible - my ability to reach what were once fairly straight forward approach distances is gradually reducing. Any help modern lofted irons can bring to the party is greatly welcome!

[GrandmasterJ]

Have you tried the i500 retro lofts? It was a blend of the two types of irons for me.

 

which irons did you end up going retro and power spec with? I have i500s that power spec and my gapping is all off. Thanks!

[GolfTurkey]

Have you tried the i500 retro lofts? It was a blend of the two types of irons for me.

 

which irons did you end up going retro and power spec with? I have i500s that power spec and my gapping is all off. Thanks!

 

I have the 5, 6 and 7 in retro loft and have ordered 8-U wedge also in retro spec. So happy with these clubs.

 

The 7 iron in retro spec doesn't go a silly distance for me so I'm not worried about gapping and the 5 and 6 go HIGH which is great because I'm a chronic low ball hitter. I hit them well because I do better with low offset and retro spec has next to none.

[GrandmasterJ]

Have you tried the i500 retro lofts? It was a blend of the two types of irons for me.

 

which irons did you end up going retro and power spec with? I have i500s that power spec and my gapping is all off. Thanks!

 

I have the 5, 6 and 7 in retro loft and have ordered 8-U wedge also in retro spec. So happy with these clubs.

 

The 7 iron in retro spec doesn't go a silly distance for me so I'm not worried about gapping and the 5 and 6 go HIGH which is great because I'm a chronic low ball hitter. I hit them well because I do better with low offset and retro spec has next to none.

 

I'm contemplating bringing all my i500 back to standard loft from power spec i just hope thats the right choice hahah

[easyyy]

Have you tried the i500 retro lofts? It was a blend of the two types of irons for me.

 

which irons did you end up going retro and power spec with? I have i500s that power spec and my gapping is all off. Thanks!

 

I have the 5, 6 and 7 in retro loft and have ordered 8-U wedge also in retro spec. So happy with these clubs.

 

The 7 iron in retro spec doesn't go a silly distance for me so I'm not worried about gapping and the 5 and 6 go HIGH which is great because I'm a chronic low ball hitter. I hit them well because I do better with low offset and retro spec has next to none.

 

I'm contemplating bringing all my i500 back to standard loft from power spec i just hope thats the right choice hahah

 

Did you do it? How did the i500's do with more loft?

 

R

[Oh Hi Carl]

Can most shops bend the i500s or do you have to send them back to Ping?

[cmatthews77]

Throwing a reply in before I can read this entire thread...

 

I go back and forth constantly! I’m a 3.2 handicap but my weakness is definitely ball striking. I just don’t hit the ball as flush as some 8 handicaps I play with it seems.

 

Honestly the only thing that keeps me to going back to the blade or player’s cavity is my personal preference and when I start hitting it good.

 

I’m 40YO and losing speed quickly (small guy and have put off the gym and stuff to keep my flexibility up which is actually my off-season goals!).

 

I went back and forth last year between my Cally Apex and a combo set of Apex Pro/Apex MB. I’ll try and summarize...

 

I’m a fairly low spin player already and hit the ball too low...

 

When I play juiced irons (Apex, Rogue Pro I demoed, TM790) I really like the distance which gets me back to where I want to be. Not crazy but 7i at 160ish. But I struggle to get 5,000RPM spin with those 7i. On the course (after also reading this site too much) I convinced myself I was getting flyers. Was it a big problem? I doubt it... but I did sometimes flush one that seemingly went a club too far.

 

I also have to carry a 50, 54, 58 wedge set up with sets like Cally Apex.

 

When I play the players irons... I LOVE the looks and feel and how they feel when I’m playing well. I also can play a 52/58 wedge setup with a 47 PW (Apex MB) and give me room to tinker with specialty clubs at the top.

 

The downside is I have to swallow that my 7i is now a 150 stick. And my PW is a 115/120 club not a 130 club. That’s not a problem but it is sort of a problem when I’m 160 and 170 and find myself hitting 5i instead of 7i.

 

I’m really anxious to test the new Apex and see if I weaken the loft of them a degree whether i can split set them with my current 8-PW in Apex MB or whether it’ll have to continue to be the Apex Pro.

 

I will say that I’ve tested the Ping i500 and I’m a big fan! Would be very interested in a set of these. Also hit the TM 760 and while I liked those a lot too the Ping gave me the extra 5 yards of carry with the 7 I want while keeping the spin rate up.

 

I stay thoroughly confused.

[Tree Levino]

Throwing a reply in before I can read this entire thread...

 

I go back and forth constantly! I'm a 3.2 handicap but my weakness is definitely ball striking. I just don't hit the ball as flush as some 8 handicaps I play with it seems.

 

Honestly the only thing that keeps me to going back to the blade or player's cavity is my personal preference and when I start hitting it good.

 

I'm 40YO and losing speed quickly (small guy and have put off the gym and stuff to keep my flexibility up which is actually my off-season goals!).

 

I went back and forth last year between my Cally Apex and a combo set of Apex Pro/Apex MB. I'll try and summarize...

 

I'm a fairly low spin player already and hit the ball too low...

 

When I play juiced irons (Apex, Rogue Pro I demoed, TM790) I really like the distance which gets me back to where I want to be. Not crazy but 7i at 160ish. But I struggle to get 5,000RPM spin with those 7i. On the course (after also reading this site too much) I convinced myself I was getting flyers. Was it a big problem? I doubt it... but I did sometimes flush one that seemingly went a club too far.

 

I also have to carry a 50, 54, 58 wedge set up with sets like Cally Apex.

 

When I play the players irons... I LOVE the looks and feel and how they feel when I'm playing well. I also can play a 52/58 wedge setup with a 47 PW (Apex MB) and give me room to tinker with specialty clubs at the top.

 

The downside is I have to swallow that my 7i is now a 150 stick. And my PW is a 115/120 club not a 130 club. That's not a problem but it is sort of a problem when I'm 160 and 170 and find myself hitting 5i instead of 7i.

 

I'm really anxious to test the new Apex and see if I weaken the loft of them a degree whether i can split set them with my current 8-PW in Apex MB or whether it'll have to continue to be the Apex Pro.

 

I will say that I've tested the Ping i500 and I'm a big fan! Would be very interested in a set of these. Also hit the TM 760 and while I liked those a lot too the Ping gave me the extra 5 yards of carry with the 7 I want while keeping the spin rate up.

 

I stay thoroughly confused.

 

I can tell you right now as a lower spin and height player myself I struggled with the Callaway offerings. The Apex Pro was better than Apex but both were just scrapping 6000rpm spin with 7i for me. I've read on here that is a pretty common opinion of the Apex range. Switching to my Ping i200 with KBS I gained probably 750rpm spin and 4 yards of peak height. They're crazy forgiving, long, and spin. Tried i210 and had the same experience even with a slightly lower spin shaft (PX LZ 6.0). Highly recommend trying it might be a good compromise for you.

[GolfChannel]

My biggest gripe with juiced irons is the problems it creates with wedges . You need an extra wedge to fill the gap , you need 2 gap wedges .

 

Elaborate? I haven't needed to add any additional wedges with my CF16's over any of my strict player's irons.

[SimonC]

Got rid of Rogue Pro Irons for this reason . The wide sole off of tight FL fairways didn't work. They were fine off a tee with a sweeping swing. Went back to MP 68 with immediate improvement in ball contact. Wide soles don't mesh with all swings.

 

I've just made a very similar move from XR Pro's to MP69's. At first I was worried about going back to a bladed style iron but I played with them for the first time yesterday and they're great, so much better through the turf and I flushed 2 4 irons back to back on one of the holes.

Yes I have to take 1 more club in the longer irons but the feel alone is worth it.

[pinestreetgolf]

I'd go along with that mostly. Except when dealing with flier lies , or certain teed up lies. Some of these irons if hit highish on the face you get these 10-15 yard longer low spin bombs that just aren't possible with a sole weighted iron.

 

1. Is there anything at all to back that up? Mr. Wishon wrote an article debunking this, the effect of which was that if an iron is built such that it has "hot spots" others don't its non-conforming. I think most of the time people are hitting it thin and blaming the club. Those types of lies allow you to hit an iron slightly on the upswing, which is the definition of a thin shot (swing bottom behind ball, club hits ball on upswing - same reason a driver goes further when you hit it on the upswing if lie allows - the sole weighted irons would do the same thing).

 

2. Why don't all of you just get j40 DPCs? Then you don't have to choose!

[mahonie]

I'd go along with that mostly. Except when dealing with flier lies , or certain teed up lies. Some of these irons if hit highish on the face you get these 10-15 yard longer low spin bombs that just aren't possible with a sole weighted iron.

 

1. Is there anything at all to back that up? Mr. Wishon wrote an article debunking this, the effect of which was that if an iron is built such that it has "hot spots" others don't its non-conforming. I think most of the time people are hitting it thin and blaming the club. Those types of lies allow you to hit an iron slightly on the upswing, which is the definition of a thin shot (swing bottom behind ball, club hits ball on upswing - same reason a driver goes further when you hit it on the upswing if lie allows - the sole weighted irons would do the same thing).

 

2. Why don't all of you just get j40 DPCs? Then you don't have to choose!

 

I may have posted this before. In response to 1., article from on here a few years back:

 

‘Other than height, one of the biggest concerns serious golfers have about RocketBladez Tour irons is their disposition to a “flyer,” which happens when a golfer catches a shot slightly above the sweet spot on the club face. The higher contact point gives golfers almost all of the speed of a center hit, but it drastically reduces spin, which causes iron shots to fly much farther than intended.

 

TaylorMade engineers said they fixed the hot spot problem by making the sweet spot of the RocketBladez Tour irons much larger. According to Sean Toulon, executive vice president for TaylorMade, the sweet spot of a RocketBladez Tour iron is about the size of a quarter, while the sweet spot of TaylorMade’s most recent muscle back iron is closer to the size of a pea.

 

So why would a tour player choose to play a shorter-flying iron with the sweet spot the size of a pea when he or she could have a longer-flying iron with a sweet spot the size of a quarter? According to Toulon, tour players like blade irons despite their small sweet spots because they’re “slow everywhere.” So even though one-piece forged irons don’t fly as far as multi-material irons, they tend to fly around the same distance on center hits as on slight mis-hits. For better players who make contact near the sweet spot nearly every time, the improved distance control means more birdie chances.’

 

 

[bladehunter]

I'd go along with that mostly. Except when dealing with flier lies , or certain teed up lies. Some of these irons if hit highish on the face you get these 10-15 yard longer low spin bombs that just aren't possible with a sole weighted iron.

 

1. Is there anything at all to back that up? Mr. Wishon wrote an article debunking this, the effect of which was that if an iron is built such that it has "hot spots" others don't its non-conforming. I think most of the time people are hitting it thin and blaming the club. Those types of lies allow you to hit an iron slightly on the upswing, which is the definition of a thin shot (swing bottom behind ball, club hits ball on upswing - same reason a driver goes further when you hit it on the upswing if lie allows - the sole weighted irons would do the same thing).

 

2. Why don't all of you just get j40 DPCs? Then you don't have to choose!

 

Has to do with the really high vertical cog of some of these gi irons. ( i500).never said or claimed hotspots. Just difference in getting the cog to the balls equator on a teed up lie vs not on a really tight lie. Vs a really low vertical cog iron like an mb.

[Forged5]

Been through this myself.

Used to be an MP player at a 3 hcp.

Now in my 50s I need that extra help and forgiveness.

Currently enjoying the 790s.

 

Aren't the new 760s the compromise everyone is looking for?

[ThorntonMelon]

760s are very good. Not springy feeling like the 790, not as good on thin misses, better on fat ones.