ANGC Course Changes ? Updated for 2021 Masters

[Hawkeye77]

Be on the lookout for new additions to include potential housing and museums. Have heard an extreme rumor of an additional 18 holes way way down the road.

 

Like Florida? Couldn't resist, sorry.

 

I'm going to ask 1000 people where they should put it!

[Hawkeye77]

Are they still using Eminent Domain to continue to steal property on the cheap and chasing people and businesses out of the area?

 

I used to live there, seen it all.

 

How much property has AN acquired through eminent domain? Would love to read about what happened there, lol.

 

As for cheap, they've paid millions for properties and way more than "regular" market for a lot of it. Some neighbors have made out just fine.

 

Anyway, I'm sure any strategy they employed to acquire land was smarter than most.

[fairways4life]

Are they still using Eminent Domain to continue to steal property on the cheap and chasing people and businesses out of the area?

 

I used to live there, seen it all.

 

How much property has AN acquired through eminent domain? Would love to read about what happened there, lol.

 

As for cheap, they've paid millions for properties and way more than "regular" market for a lot of it. Some neighbors have made out just fine.

 

Anyway, I'm sure any strategy they employed to acquire land was smarter than most.

 

Eminent domain is when a government takes over private land to turn it into public land. Seeing as how ANGC is not a government, my guess is that they have acquired exactly zero properties through this mechanism.

 

Now, they absolutely buy off properties. But that's no different than me making an offer to my neighbor for his house so that I can combine our two properties. That's a completely different ballgame than eminent domain, where people are literally left without a choice and a bulldozer will be coming for their front porch whether they accept it or not.

 

There are still some holdouts around ANGC. There's a house near (basically in at this point) the huge free parking lot that has refused to sell. The club has reportedly made them multiple offers but they have decided to stay.

 

This is not eminent domain.

[Hawkeye77]

LOL, thought I was on last page, but wasn't when I quoted the silly post about eminent domain, and see plenty of folks tried, and failed, lol, to convince the poster he didn't know what he was talking about. Didn't mean to invite more about something that was discussed to death. Sorry.

 

Yes, we know what eminent domain is.

[fairways4life]

Anyone who enjoys discussing and learning about the history of ANGC and the Masters, I strongly recommend this book. Pick up a cheap used copy and get your golf fix in during the dead of winter. Very interesting read and you'll learn a ton.

 

https://www.thriftbo...16&idiq=2103398

[cardoustie]

If I had to guess there will be some big changes coming for 2020. Tiger proofing ! (that was a joke)

I think 13 and 16 will have some length added. Some more greens re-worked

I'd like bunkering work done but it seems they don't appreciate the original AM designs

I also really want the creek back in front of 6 but Fred Ridley won't take my calls. Would be great fun with a front pin. We need more front 9 drama on Sunday

[Man_O_War]

> @cardoustie said:

> If I had to guess there will be some big changes coming for 2020. Tiger proofing ! (that was a joke)

> I think 13 and 16 will have some length added. Some more greens re-worked

> I'd like bunkering work done but it seems they don't appreciate the original AM designs

> I also really want the creek back in front of 6 but Fred Ridley won't take my calls. Would be great fun with a front pin. We need more front 9 drama on Sunday

 

13 needs some beef. They were hitting 9 irons wedges on sunday for second shots.

[cardoustie]

> @Man_O_War said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > If I had to guess there will be some big changes coming for 2020. Tiger proofing ! (that was a joke)

> > I think 13 and 16 will have some length added. Some more greens re-worked

> > I'd like bunkering work done but it seems they don't appreciate the original AM designs

> > I also really want the creek back in front of 6 but Fred Ridley won't take my calls. Would be great fun with a front pin. We need more front 9 drama on Sunday

>

> 13 needs some beef. They were hitting 9 irons wedges on sunday for second shots.

 

They bought land to back the tee up but can also back up the green (which they won't likely do but you never know with the depth of those pockets).

Really they need the guys back at the corner at 225-245 for their 2nd shots

Still blown away that they couldn't firm up the greens some with the sub-air

 

[farmer]

I wish they would build another course, split the tournament between the two. Then maybe I could get drawn in the lottery.

[Ferguson]

> @farmer said:

> I wish they would build another course, split the tournament between the two. Then maybe I could get drawn in the lottery.

 

Sorry, Farmer it's not you. It's your zip code.

[Oliver Klozoff]

To me this course is losing its luster. Green speeds of some other Tour courses are almost the same as Augusta. And ANGC doesn't have the slopes of say Oakmont. Some pin positions funnel the ball too well making putting easier. #16 used to be a 5 iron. They would miss and have a tough putt. Now they flip 7 irons in there. I read somewhere the GIR % on that hole was over 95%. They used to play out of the creek on #13 and mess it up. Now it is either an easy chip on the slope or in the water. I hate seeing the light rough. It should be all fairway cut. The club is out of room to get the course the 300 extra yards it needs. They definitely will back up #13 though.

 

Some holes have held up. #1 always seems tough. #12 still catches the errant water ball at the opportune time. #15 is still a brutal wedge shot especially when the wind is up. But others like #8, 13 and 16 have become too easy.

 

Seems to me the winning score at Harbor Town has become higher than the winning score at Augusta. I think that's the recipe to protect courses from pros. Small greens, slight doglegs, and most importantly overhanging trees. The latter has gone away for gallery reasons. But to me that's the key to making these guys panic a little. Essentially cut the fairway in half with overhanging branches. Harbor Town does it under 6900 yards. Augusta could do it at 7400 yards.

 

Just random thoughts.

[cardoustie]

Well they want the funnel pins on Sunday so players can make a charge. (Pin on 16 used to be back right on Sundays)

7 and 16 on Sunday are too easy though (too much funnel IMO). And some guys are hitting 9 irons into 16. It's weird to watch the old highlites and see guys like Norman and Pavin go left into the pond on 16 ... with 6 irons no less .... nobody does that anymore

13, 15 and 16 are very easy birdie holes coming home ... which isn't terrible. How about the front pin on 13 on Sunday ??????????????

I wouldn't be surprised if they addressed the massive opening in the right trees on 11 as well

They should bring the creek on the left side of 2 closer to the fairway for guys cutting down the corner there ... food for thought

I think the course is very solid but surprised some of this stuff hasn't been tackled already

[Roadking2003]

How about this suggestion;

1. Don't change anything.

2. See #1.

Nbr 13 is perfect as are most of the other holes. Winning scores are not going down. Back nine drama is spectacular. Don't ruin a good thing.

 

[cardoustie]

RK. You think 13 is fine with guys like Rory and DJ and Bubba hitting PW in? At least get them hitting 6 irons after a nuked drive

[MilkyButterCuts]

> @cardoustie said:

> RK. You think 13 is fine with guys like Rory and DJ and Bubba hitting PW in? At least get them hitting 6 irons after a nuked drive

 

Then what do the other 50 guys in the field hit? 4 irons and hybrids just so 10 guys wont hit a short iron. It's not like its a gimme eagle or even birdie. It's a tough approach shot, look at the slopes on that green.

[RobotDoctor]

I definitely agree when cutting the second cut to fairway length. While some shots will now be more advantageous, most will run into a bit more trouble, possibly pine straw. I'd add some fluff to the pine straw so it's not as consistent proving to be a bit more penal. Yes, add a bit of length to 13. If the grass cut to fairway length proves not to work the Masters tournament committee could return to the second cut.

[tiderider]

> @MilkyButterCuts said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > RK. You think 13 is fine with guys like Rory and DJ and Bubba hitting PW in? At least get them hitting 6 irons after a nuked drive

>

> Then what do the other 50 guys in the field hit? 4 irons and hybrids just so 10 guys wont hit a short iron. It's not like its a gimme eagle or even birdie. It's a tough approach shot, look at the slopes on that green.

 

i don' t know ... if everyone can hit it, then everyone gets a birdie ... i'd venture to guess there just aren't that many eagles since it is so hard to get it close (and i did like the new pin placement this year on sunday), and then it's essentially a nothing hole since it's relatively easy to hit ... if it's lengthened, you might see more crashes, giving the ones who can actually hit a long iron from a severe slope some advantage ... and 16 needs to be lengthened ... it's a small area that rewards the run down to the hole on sunday, but an 8 or 9 iron isn't that hard to hit for those guys ... push it back 20 yards or so ...

[cardoustie]

> @MilkyButterCuts said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > RK. You think 13 is fine with guys like Rory and DJ and Bubba hitting PW in? At least get them hitting 6 irons after a nuked drive

>

> Then what do the other 50 guys in the field hit? 4 irons and hybrids just so 10 guys wont hit a short iron. It's not like its a gimme eagle or even birdie. It's a tough approach shot, look at the slopes on that green.

 

Well in the old days the short guys couldn't go for it ... and only the longer hitters after a big drive could go for 13 in two .... with usually a 3 or 4 wood

It wasn't that long ago that Faldo hit that epic 2 iron off the sidehill lie on 13. To me, that is a historical shot. Not a miles high nuked 9 iron from 165

It's funny that critics don't moan much about lengthening up par 4's but par 5 changes bring heavy criticism. The second shot is FAR more entertaining when there is an element of risk at play

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I think when you grew up golfing may be a factor. When I was 20 a 480 par 4 was a dead solid drive of 250-270 and then a nutted 2 or 3 iron. 270 was a real blast with persimmon and the old balata balls

You were proud to make a par, that was a player's par right there. Nowadays, it's a 360 yard drive and a SW from 110

 

 

[15th Club]

Lol. 90% of these issues would be obviated by rolling back the golf ball and returning a lot of the traditional mowing patterns.

[Shilgy]

> @"15th Club" said:

> Lol. 90% of these issues would be obviated by rolling back the golf ball and returning a lot of the traditional mowing patterns.

 

You don't want Augusta to have rough?

 

Funny how when discussing equipment it's all about how a modem 7 iron is really a 4 or 5 iron. But in this type of discussion the sky is falling because a handful of players play 13 in an undesirable way. It's wonderful that Snead would talk about cutting the corner by going OVER the trees. But now it's terrible.

It's always been a part 4.5 and that is it's charm.

[cardoustie]

2021 update

 

I stand by all my changes suggested in 2018, except the first one, shorter tee on hole 3

 

Awesome we see another Masters so quickly !!!!!!!!!

 

[billyspan]

2 hours ago, cardoustie said:

2021 update

 

I stand by all my changes suggested in 2018, except the first one, shorter tee on hole 3

 

Awesome we see another Masters so quickly !!!!!!!!!

 

I love your ideas.  ANGC has never been shy to implement changes (sometimes significant). 

I would love to see some of the seasonal creek beds restored.  However, the creek that ran through the "dip" on the par 3 6th hole was never in play.  It is about 75 yards short of the green.  In about 53 or 54 the creek was dammed creating a "scum" pond in front.  This was in response to increased patron traffic.  About 1959, the pond was filled and I assume the entire creek bed pushed underground.

 

This "creek" (I believe) is the same that later became the pond on the "new" 16th in 1947.  The creek ran from outside the property (Beckman's Road area) down in front of the 5th tee area, across the 6th, across the 16th and joined the tributary of Raes Creek at the 13th.  Most of it has been put underground.

 

There was another prominent seasonal bed that ran across hole #1 just past the tee box.  It ran across the 9th maybe 60 yards short of the green, continued across the 8th short of the fairway bunker, across the 7th probably 90 yards short of the green, across the 17th and into the front pond at the 15th.  I believe the front pond at the 15th was originally more of a creek like the 13th.  This creek bed also joined the tributary to Raes Creek around the 14th tee area.

 

 

[cardoustie]

Just read the whole thread again

 

I would like to add in one of my later comments as a design idea

 

Kick in the left creek on hole 2 into the driving landing area which is now over the hill past the right fwy bunker 

[cardoustie]

5 minutes ago, billyspan said:

I love your ideas.  ANGC has never been shy to implement changes (sometimes significant). 

I would love to see some of the seasonal creek beds restored.  However, the creek that ran through the "dip" on the par 3 6th hole was never in play.  It is about 75 yards short of the green.  In about 53 or 54 the creek was dammed creating a "scum" pond in front.  This was in response to increased patron traffic.  About 1959, the pond was filled and I assume the entire creek bed pushed underground.

 

This "creek" (I believe) is the same that later became the pond on the "new" 16th in 1947.  The creek ran from outside the property (Beckman's Road area) down in front of the 5th tee area, across the 6th, across the 16th and joined the tributary of Raes Creek at the 13th.  Most of it has been put underground.

 

There was another prominent seasonal bed that ran across hole #1 just past the tee box.  It ran across the 9th maybe 60 yards short of the green, continued across the 8th short of the fairway bunker, across the 7th probably 90 yards short of the green, across the 17th and into the front pond at the 15th.  I believe the front pond at the 15th was originally more of a creek like the 13th.  This creek bed also joined the tributary to Raes Creek around the 14th tee area.

 

 

 

great detailed response, WOW

 

With ANGC funds they could easily have the creek put back in and shifted to the very front edge of the 6th green.  Would be great for front pins

[golfortennis]

I had been in favor of the proposal I want to say Justin Leonard(but could be Duval) made about 13, which was to lower, and move to the left, the tee box.  Make the draw off the tee a necessity.  Now there are rumors a tree was "bent" to create a blockage, and with the ball not traveling quite as far in November, that wasn't quite as necessary.

 

Having seen how muddy the tee box was though, I'm not sure lowering is an option.  If the drainage could be improved, that would be fine, but if not, I can see why it's not such a good idea.

[cardoustie]

want to make 13 a whisker harder ??? ... extend the pine tree area that Phil played out of on the right ... add 30 yards more as many guys can get past it now without hitting the big hook shape that the hole requires

 

Bryson talked about just aiming at 14 fairway .. that idea needs to be squashed

[billyspan]

Yes, making that creek in front of 6 in play would change things.  Frankly, I like the look of the creek in front of 15 vs the pond.  Also, the original 16th is a interesting one.  Approximately, 110 yds over the creek coming down from the 6th.  The tee was to the RIGHT of the 15th green.  Google the 1933 aerials.  Very interesting.  The new 16th is probably better, but maybe a tiny hole with a crazy green would be cool!

 

 

[cardoustie]

the back left of the 16th green should be added back in with the pond extended (where the creek used to exit the pond) . .. long left used to be wet .. wicked Sunday pin IMO

[freowho]

1 hour ago, Bluefan75 said:

I had been in favor of the proposal I want to say Justin Leonard(but could be Duval) made about 13, which was to lower, and move to the left, the tee box.  Make the draw off the tee a necessity.  Now there are rumors a tree was "bent" to create a blockage, and with the ball not traveling quite as far in November, that wasn't quite as necessary.

 

Having seen how muddy the tee box was though, I'm not sure lowering is an option.  If the drainage could be improved, that would be fine, but if not, I can see why it's not such a good idea.

Artificial turf on the tee. Sacrilege, I know. But surely a tee is the one area you could do it.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, cardoustie said:

want to make 13 a whisker harder ??? ... extend the pine tree area that Phil played out of on the right ... add 30 yards more as many guys can get past it now without hitting the big hook shape that the hole requires

 

Bryson talked about just aiming at 14 fairway .. that idea needs to be squashed

Guarantee they heard!