Lower body starts downswing: How To Feel This

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  • glkglk send it in jerome Members Posts: 3,398 ✭✭
    Two views of what is going on.









  • KMeloneyKMeloney Members Posts: 4,784 ✭✭
    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Yes. Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane. Not trying to make it look at the ground.




    Interesting. Because Russel Heritage (who I think is good) advocates the buckle looking down, iirc...
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,545 ✭✭
    KMeloney wrote:

    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Yes. Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane. Not trying to make it look at the ground.




    Interesting. Because Russel Heritage (who I think is good) advocates the buckle looking down, iirc...




    I’m already kind of over my skis in this conversation. At this point I think I should defer to the experts. To OP and everyone else take my experience with a grain of salt. It worked for me - YRMV.
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  • copperjeffcopperjeff Members Posts: 951 ✭✭
    Honestly, no feel is wrong if the mechanics are correct.



    You could tell me you start the downswing by crossing your eyes, and if that feel gets you a mechanically sound swing, good for you!
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  • Hilts1969Hilts1969 Members Posts: 1,006 ✭✭
    copperjeff wrote:


    Honestly, no feel is wrong if the mechanics are correct.



    You could tell me you start the downswing by crossing your eyes, and if that feel gets you a mechanically sound swing, good for you!




    Cross eyes

    Own nose comes into view and ball vanishes from sight

    Hit impulse cured



    I'm trying it
  • OakLawnGolfProOakLawnGolfPro Members Posts: 149 ✭✭
    Push down with lead foot and then feel the pressure push up through impact. Let the rest happen.
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  • garytgaryt Members Posts: 274 ✭✭
    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Yes. Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane. Not trying to make it look at the ground.




    I tried this yesterday and it worked great. Hit some really crisp shots. I videotaped myself and while I felt like I was really lowering the belt you rerally couldn't see it on video. Probably just stopped me EE and standing up, but worked great.
  • ScottboxScottbox scottbox Members Posts: 45 ✭✭
    Lots of good ways to feel it:



    Left Knee "bump":





    The baseball "step drill" to feel left knee in transition:





    "Bank" or roll the feet:





    Push off with right foot:





    All of these have similar effects. You really just need to go out there with a 9-iron and drill it very slowly. You'll be amazed at how quickly you develop a sensitivity for how your feet and legs move.
  • elthrillelthrill Members Posts: 180 ✭✭
    why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it! For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing. Turn turn turn. guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips! your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it. the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest. i never think of my legs.



    I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish. this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action. there is no thought to my arms at all. its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence. i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching. it is simple and it works. the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists. this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside. if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.
  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,245 ✭✭
    edited Jan 3, 2019 6:29pm #71
    elthrill wrote:


    why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it! For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing. Turn turn turn. guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips! your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it. the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest. i never think of my legs.



    I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish. this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action. there is no thought to my arms at all. its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence. i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching. it is simple and it works. the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists. this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside. if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.




    Sounds good do you have a matching backswing thought :-)
  • vmanvman Members Posts: 1,237 ✭✭
    I like to just feel my left buttock get deeper at the start of my downswing. I always rehearse this in slow motion as a practise routine and the feel enables me to really rotate in the downswing instead of sliding.
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  • TexasTurfTexasTurf Members Posts: 51 ✭✭
    Tanner25 wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it! For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing. Turn turn turn. guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips! your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it. the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest. i never think of my legs.



    I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish. this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action. there is no thought to my arms at all. its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence. i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching. it is simple and it works. the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists. this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside. if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.




    Sounds good do you have a matching backswing thought :-)




    Ask and you shall receive. Start the video at 12:09, really good stuff starts at 14:45 (as far as GP's backswing thought/theory). Seems like a pretty simple idea compared to most.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZkxmr2wMyU
  • vitalesanvitalesan Members Posts: 34
    We need to remember that although most may feel the hops start the downswing. That doesn’t mean the hips rotate then shoulders then arms etc. it all happens together but the initiation happens through the hips, as soon as weight shift starts the shoulders and arms follow.



    For me, I feel the hips start the weight shift forward and my shoulders start and bring the arms down so the right elbow reconnects to my side. From there, the hips and shoulders are still rotating and then bring the arms around from my side though the impact zone.... so the feels for me are, hips shift weight and right elbow makes contact with side. Everything else is automatic. That is my practice swing thought and I tell myself, “I’m programmed in,” then go and do it with the thought of just the last target (body position with the elbow touching side) in my shot. That also helps slow down my tempo so it’s smooth and easy.
  • rgk5rgk5 rgk5(OLB) Members Posts: 3,585 ✭✭
    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Yes. Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane. Not trying to make it look at the ground.




    If not done correctly some players will lose their spine angle with that move by tilting their torso forward AND down.
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,545 ✭✭
    rgk5 wrote:

    ebrasmus21 wrote:


    Yes. Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane. Not trying to make it look at the ground.




    If not done correctly some players will lose their spine angle with that move by tilting their torso forward AND down.




    Then that player would be moving incorrectly, I agree.
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  • clp34vmpclp34vmp Cancel that mead Members Posts: 254 ✭✭
    Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.



    Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.



    One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,545 ✭✭
    clp34vmp wrote:


    Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.



    Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.



    One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.




    So I’ve already mentioned my buckle down feeling that I got from Monte. Something else that has helped with hip depth and rotation for me is feeling like when I get pressure into my lead foot I then push down into the ground hard whilst rotating. I never could figure out how to rotate my hips without firing my trail leg/knee. Firing my trail leg/knee made me lose hip depth and it generally crowded the downswing eating up the space for my arms.



    So, it finally occurred to me that once I get pressure into the lead leg the feeling is this:



    - Pressure into lead leg

    - Push hard into the ground

    - While pushing rotate on the lead leg

    - the feeling for me is almost that I have “forgotten” about my trail leg - it will follow on its own



    Anyways the idea for me is to use the lead leg as the pivot point around which I can get my hips to clear in the downswing. That might be common knowledge, idk, it just never occurred to me until recently.



    As I mentioned before, I’m not a pro nor an instructor. These are just ideas that seem to be working for me lately.
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  • glkglk send it in jerome Members Posts: 3,398 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 8:23pm #79
    To me the misunderstanding is that it is not just the lower body that starts the downswing but both upper and lower body centers moving laterally (yes, with a little bit of rotation). Hard to do and really hard to do without a good backswing pivot.



    I love the stills on this guys showing a good top position and the transition move of the body by arms parallel (with a nice, quiet trail leg) - followed by the full swing instagram. This to me is the downhill action.

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    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • AtraynAtrayn ClubWRX Posts: 2,056 ✭✭
    clp34vmp wrote:


    Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.



    Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.



    One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.




    I had this problem for a while and I couldn't get the arms where I wanted to see them. My swing was a flip w/EE all day. It was a result of an earlier problem and one I could only fix by thinking of what Monte advocates at times...."lead with the right elbow"



    If I changed my intent to "lead with the right elbow" I found that it forced me to stay in my tilt longer because if I didn't I'd either miss the ball or lift and extend the hips toward the ball. Start with small swings. Having the intent to get the right elbow forced my hips more open automatically because the body senses that the elbow will crash into the right side and everything moves out of the way to make room.



    It may work for you...



    Video the small swings with this intent and verify your shoulders and hips open like you expect. Keep elongating the swing until you lose the position. Reset and start small again. It won't take hold overnight but keep working smaller swings until you achieve what you are looking for.
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  • dj*dj* Members Posts: 71 ✭✭
    TexasTurf wrote:

    Tanner25 wrote:

    elthrill wrote:


    why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it! For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing. Turn turn turn. guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips! your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it. the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest. i never think of my legs.



    I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish. this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action. there is no thought to my arms at all. its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence. i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching. it is simple and it works. the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists. this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside. if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.




    Sounds good do you have a matching backswing thought :-)




    Ask and you shall receive. Start the video at 12:09, really good stuff starts at 14:45 (as far as GP's backswing thought/theory). Seems like a pretty simple idea compared to most.



    [media=]




    Hogan too, as told by a playing partner of his.



    [media=]
  • GhostwedgeGhostwedge Members Posts: 653 ✭✭
    Thatʻs Jackie Burke Jr in that video with Elk. Google/youtube him up in his prime, he was right there with Hogan,Nelson and Snead.

    Great looking golf swing.
  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,563 ✭✭
    clp34vmp wrote:


    Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.



    Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.



    One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.


    What you're describing is the ability to disassociate the hips from the upper torso and how much you can disassociate given your flexibility. It's all very well to try and get the hips as open as possible but if you can't physically disassociate them from your upper torso enough you are going to be coming over the top all day long.



    The average guy who doesn't have the flexibility and athleticism of someone like Cameron Champ would be better off served not to get the hips too open because it will cause all sorts of issues in your upper torso. You can still play great golf with squarish hips at impact. Kevin Stadler is probably a good model for the player with average flexibility actually.





  • Hilts1969Hilts1969 Members Posts: 1,006 ✭✭
    dap wrote:

    clp34vmp wrote:


    Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.



    Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.



    One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.


    What you're describing is the ability to disassociate the hips from the upper torso and how much you can disassociate given your flexibility. It's all very well to try and get the hips as open as possible but if you can't physically disassociate them from your upper torso enough you are going to be coming over the top all day long.



    The average guy who doesn't have the flexibility and athleticism of someone like Cameron Champ would be better off served not to get the hips too open because it will cause all sorts of issues in your upper torso. You can still play great golf with squarish hips at impact. Kevin Stadler is probably a good model for the player with average flexibility actually.












    Good video that, post the exact same swing by a member and the list of faults would be endless.
  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,545 ✭✭
    Did a little work on this this morning. As I mentioned before I’m just trying to get “belt buckle down” to start the swing. Since my belt isn’t visible look at the emblem on my hat and how it moves.



    By no means am I say this is perfect. Just trying to illustrate what I’ve said in my prior posts.
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  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    chiva wrote:


    Monte's zipper away video!










    I had been doing some weird things in transition lately so I read through this thread before I played on Saturday. Watched this video and took that thought to the course. It made a world of difference. I could feel my arms dropping into the slot very easily once I got my hips cleared like this. Struck it very well. Thanks for posting it!
  • juliette91juliette91 Members Posts: 1,456 ✭✭
    The hard part of this Hogan/Monte/TImbo posted message, this moving of the lead knee over the lead foot in transition, is that one's weight shift has moved most of the weight to the rear instep/foot. So what you're doing is trying to get the body to quickly, at transition, move a body part where there is very little "weight" pressure on it at that time. This makes it hard to feel, or maybe a better way to say it, this makes it hard to instantaneously figure out where your lead knee is in order to move it over your lead knee.



    I will give this a try again as I know it's the right move having watched Xander S. do this all day long yesterday in what I thought was an exhibition of one of the purest swings and strikes I'd ever seen on tv.
  • juliette91juliette91 Members Posts: 1,456 ✭✭
    copperjeff wrote:


    Honestly, no feel is wrong if the mechanics are correct.



    You could tell me you start the downswing by crossing your eyes, and if that feel gets you a mechanically sound swing, good for you!




    Well said! I've tried many of the suggestions here, the latest one being the suggested move of the lead knee over the lead foot but wow that was impossible for me to do. In the end the best way for me to execute the transition--and be able to actually command my body to do it--is to turn my chest toward the target. Realize as some have astutely pointed out that this could cause me to spin out, to turn too quickly toward the target before I get the right "drop" into the slot.



    What helped prevent that bad outcome was instituting a pause at the top of my backswing and then turn my chest toward the target. Doing that--for me-- gets me into that "slot" and the danger of spinning out and hitting it well left (I'm LH) is reduced.



    While I'd love my transition move to look more like In Gee Chun or Na Yeon Choi, or Xander Schauffele, sweet tempos with easy to see lower bodies lowering and leading the downswing I'm unable to do that. Finally realizing I have to stop tinkering incessantly and settle on what seems to be something I can reproduce more consistently---which turns out to be something I can control with my brain--before the downswing actually happens.



    So thank you all for your informative, helpful and well thought out posts. Keep it going for others who are still looking for a piece of that transition grail but I'm bowing out and will work on what I "feel" is my more natural rhythm.
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Sponsors Posts: 18,286 ✭✭
    juliette91 wrote:


    The hard part of this Hogan/Monte/TImbo posted message, this moving of the lead knee over the lead foot in transition, is that one's weight shift has moved most of the weight to the rear instep/foot. So what you're doing is trying to get the body to quickly, at transition, move a body part where there is very little "weight" pressure on it at that time. This makes it hard to feel, or maybe a better way to say it, this makes it hard to instantaneously figure out where your lead knee is in order to move it over your lead knee.



    I will give this a try again as I know it's the right move having watched Xander S. do this all day long yesterday in what I thought was an exhibition of one of the purest swings and strikes I'd ever seen on tv.




    This is why it’s supposed to start earlier. Most people interpret it as hip fire. You’re suppose to start shifting prsssure left around P3.5ish
  • glkglk send it in jerome Members Posts: 3,398 ✭✭

    juliette91 wrote:


    The hard part of this Hogan/Monte/TImbo posted message, this moving of the lead knee over the lead foot in transition, is that one's weight shift has moved most of the weight to the rear instep/foot. So what you're doing is trying to get the body to quickly, at transition, move a body part where there is very little "weight" pressure on it at that time. This makes it hard to feel, or maybe a better way to say it, this makes it hard to instantaneously figure out where your lead knee is in order to move it over your lead knee.



    I will give this a try again as I know it's the right move having watched Xander S. do this all day long yesterday in what I thought was an exhibition of one of the purest swings and strikes I'd ever seen on tv.




    This is why it’s supposed to start earlier. Most people interpret it as hip fire. You’re suppose to start shifting prsssure left around P3.5ish


    To me, trying to start transition by moving the lead knee over the ankle would just cause me to hang back - the lead knee moves over the ankle cause the body centers shift laterally.



    I prefer to think of it as lining up the joints - hip/knee/ankle. Schauffele's lead knee moves back over his ankle cause he starts shifting pressure just before he finishes his backswing - he's shifting and starting to regain flexion and providing a little bit of rotation - these motions lead to his lead knee moving. I doubt he is thinking about moving his knee as a transition key. Frankly, I would think folks who try to start transition with their lead knee would develop a case of the hang back spin outs.



    As Monte said it starts somewhere before the end of the backswing.



    Xander when he starts pressure shift but before end of his backswing

  • rgk5rgk5 rgk5(OLB) Members Posts: 3,585 ✭✭
    This is basically the same as Hogan's "fall foward" move discussed in Jim McLean's book analyzing Hogan's swing.
    Cobra F8+, 10.5*, VA Composites Raijin 44 F2
    Cobra F8 3-4 wood 15.5*, VA Composites Raijin 44 F3

    Cobra F8 5-6 wood, Tensei Blue A
    Ping I10 4-PW, AWT S, Red Dot +1"
    Miura "Mind the Gap" 51* Recoil F3

    Ping Glide 1.0 55*, CFS Wedge flex

    Ping Glide 2.0 Stealth 58*, Alta 70 R

    Odyssey Stroke Lab #1

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