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Callaway Rogue SZ vs. Callaway Epic Flash SZ Updated


CaddiesFault

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Hey all,

 

Here is my first test of the Epic Flash SZ, using the Foresight GCquad. Please note that this is my first time swinging the Flash, and I do not have it as well tuned to my swing as I do the Rogue SZ, which I have been using for a year. I used a Chrome Soft X for both Drivers, and got a solid warmup with my irons beforehand, so I was fully warmed up for both Drivers.

 

I also used the same shaft on both clubs, Diamana Kai'li (blueboard) 60s real deal shaft, 43.5". I had the Flash slider in a neutral setting. For reference I am 5'7 150lbs, 32yrs old.

 

Here are some side by side pics of the 2 for starters:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So here are my first thoughts on the Flash SZ compared to the Rogue SZ. Note that some of these are my personal opinions, and may not be the same as others:

 

1. The face is taller, and the head looks smaller at address. It comes with a 12g slider and 2g front weight, which was far too light. I put in a 14g and 20g slider.

 

2. I hit everything off the heel until i started lining the ball off the toe. Didnt have to to that with the Rogue but ill probably get used to the new stick and wont have to do that after awhile.

 

3. The ball launches much higher. I had my Rogue SZ 9.0 set to +1 to get my apex height in the mid 30s. I used the same settings when i started with the Flash and the apex was high 40s with a dynamic launch nearing 20*!!! You will see that in the spreadsheet below I ended up testing the Flash at 9* and it still had a higher apex than the Rogue at 10*, albeit a little lower.

 

4. My AoA was even higher with the Flash, but that could be due to the different look of the head I had it a little farther forward in my stance, not sure.

 

5. My Ball & Club Speed were each up 1MPH, but because I dont have it tuned perfectly yet, the ball went higher, not necessarily farther, due to increased launch and spin rate.

 

6. The club feels and sounds great. Mishits feel more flush, which is probably a result of the Flash face being hotter across the face. The higher face and toe area make my most common miss, high toe, much more flush feeling with less hook.

 

PDF of results below:

 

 

Here are some new numbers from today with the lighter 12g slider put back in, and same 14g weight in front. Shaft on S/N. I wasnt swinging it as fast or hitting the middle as well today, i was kind of fighting my swing obviously. It happens...Anyways, I was hitting it farther with slower speeds and smash. I did hit one after exporting this file that carried 284 with 161 ball speed(go figure). These settings are much better for my swing.

 

 

 

 

January 18th:

 

Callaway

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Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.

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Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?

 

Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.

 

on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.

 

That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.

Callaway

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Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?

 

Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.

 

on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.

 

That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.

 

Thing is the rogue looks great to my eye but if flash is launching higher, I'm all for that!

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Looks like they are very similar. Makes in unlikely that I will upgrade from my Rogue SZ.

 

What is your driver swing speed out of curiosity?

 

Its in the club stats portion of the PDF, although People with more knowledge of the GCquads algorithm process claim the club speed can get slightly inflated due to lower smash factor than trackman, but the GCquad has me at 110 +/-2mph.

Callaway

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Thanks for posting OP. I'm going to take away the notion that I will gain roughly 1" on my drives per $9.50 more I spend on the newest model. (based on gaining about .9 yards and the Rogue being worth about $200 lightly used.

 

Agreed. Spend it on lessons if you want to lower your hdcp. A 1 year newer driver isnt gonna go 10 yards farther when the COR of .83 has been maxed out in drivers since 2007, nor will it help your game. All thats happening is longer shafts and higher ball speeds on mishits. This club was great on high toe mishits, which will help keep that distance up. It also didnt hook as much off the toe, which was nice. Its not gonna go much farther than rogue, thats a pipe dream. more details to come.

Callaway

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The Epic Flash has the bells and whistles but I must admit, might of been the placebo effect when I was hitting the new Epic Flash. Like stated above, a new driver is not going to out preform a 1 year old driver by 10 yards and your numbers prove it.

 

I still want it though cause its new and shiny!!! hahaha...

 

- KC

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So, about that heavier sliding weight. Where did you happen upon such a thing. I typically have to add some weight to the head to get the feel right. Especially with a counter balanced shaft now.

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Any chance that you need a slightly lower launch/spin shaft since that Diamana has you launching a bit higher? Maybe something to consider when doing your fine tuning with the Flash. Might net you a few more yards (although probably not enough to toss away the Rogue)

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Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?

 

Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.

 

on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.

 

That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.

Can you weigh the heads with the adjust weights to see the difference. More weight would definitely add more dynamic loft

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Thanks for posting OP. I'm going to take away the notion that I will gain roughly 1" on my drives per $9.50 more I spend on the newest model. (based on gaining about .9 yards and the Rogue being worth about $200 lightly used.

 

Agreed. Spend it on lessons if you want to lower your hdcp. A 1 year newer driver isnt gonna go 10 yards farther when the COR of .83 has been maxed out in drivers since 2007, nor will it help your game. All thats happening is longer shafts and higher ball speeds on mishits. This club was great on high toe mishits, which will help keep that distance up. It also didnt hook as much off the toe, which was nice. Its not gonna go much farther than rogue, thats a pipe dream. more details to come.

Callaway is claiming that they have found a way to keep the face within the USGA CT limits(CT is what they are using now to measure face deflection), while increasing COR beyond the old .83 limit. So your statement that the COR has been max'ed may not be accurate. But I agree that improving your swing will bring greater benefits than a new driver could deliver.

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Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.

 

I am going to disagree on this one. It is obvious that the Rogue is dialed for the OP, as he hit is consistently compared to the Epic Flash. Where the Epic Flash shines is that it has better dispersion and the best drive was way better than the best drive with the Rogue.

 

It just looks to me like a couple of bad/subpar shots with high spin caused the average carry/total yard numbers to get closer to the Rogue.

 

i would try to find a way to lower spin with the Flash. As the extra launch angle with lower spin will probably add another 5y+ and make it stand out much better than the Rogue. Try lowering the rear sliding weight back to 14g and keep the heavier weight up front. That will even out the head weights of the 2 drivers and should lower spin rates. It should help a lot IMO.

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Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.

 

I am going to disagree on this one. It is obvious that the Rogue is dialed for the OP, as he hit is consistently compared to the Epic Flash. Where the Epic Flash shines is that it has better dispersion and the best drive was way better than the best drive with the Rogue.

 

It just looks to me like a couple of bad/subpar shots with high spin caused the average carry/total yard numbers to get closer to the Rogue.

 

i would try to find a way to lower spin with the Flash. As the extra launch angle with lower spin will probably add another 5y+ and make it stand out much better than the Rogue. Try lowering the rear sliding weight back to 14g and keep the heavier weight up front. That will even out the head weights of the 2 drivers and should lower spin rates. It should help a lot IMO.

 

I am still fine tuning the Flash and will def squeeze a few more yds once I get it where i want it. I struggled a bit with the Rogue at first too, until I figured out a weight combo/shaft setting that worked for me.

 

Dispersion is much better for me. The difference on high toe shots is fantastic. They used to be knuckle hooks with the rogue, and feel flush and go much straighter with Flash.

Callaway

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So, about that heavier sliding weight. Where did you happen upon such a thing. I typically have to add some weight to the head to get the feel right. Especially with a counter balanced shaft now.

 

When Callaway sent me the head, it came with an extra slider. I was surprised. Not sure if they will be doing this for commercial but they should. Cant cost them but an extra dollar and the response would be worth it IMO.

Callaway

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Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?

 

Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.

 

on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.

 

That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.

Can you weigh the heads with the adjust weights to see the difference. More weight would definitely add more dynamic loft

 

I will have to check the kitchen at our club for a digital lol, I dont have one. Maybe someone has done this already and i can find it online?

Callaway

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Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.

 

I am going to disagree on this one. It is obvious that the Rogue is dialed for the OP, as he hit is consistently compared to the Epic Flash. Where the Epic Flash shines is that it has better dispersion and the best drive was way better than the best drive with the Rogue.

 

It just looks to me like a couple of bad/subpar shots with high spin caused the average carry/total yard numbers to get closer to the Rogue.

 

i would try to find a way to lower spin with the Flash. As the extra launch angle with lower spin will probably add another 5y+ and make it stand out much better than the Rogue. Try lowering the rear sliding weight back to 14g and keep the heavier weight up front. That will even out the head weights of the 2 drivers and should lower spin rates. It should help a lot IMO.

 

I am planning on trying this, yes. I lowered the loft to 8* and started getting spin rates around 2k, but id rather not do it that way. I will be doing some tinkering for sure.

Callaway

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Do you think the overly high launch is a product of the extra weighting?

 

Possibly, but i had the 14g in the Rogue as well as 6g of lead tape on the bottom.

 

on the Flash I put the same 14g weight in, with an 8g heavier slider, so only a 2g difference in what i did to change them.

 

That was my initial thought too. I will say that the Flash does feel a couple SW heavier in these settings than the rogue so it may still be partially the reason.

Can you weigh the heads with the adjust weights to see the difference. More weight would definitely add more dynamic loft

 

I will have to check the kitchen at our club for a digital lol, I dont have one. Maybe someone has done this already and i can find it online?

Each head weighs differently so I would suggest that you actually weight out yours. Remember about 3 grams will be about 1 SW point in the head

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I would experiment with ball position ahead of doing anything. I like a good positive angle of attack but I'm guessing from the numbers that the AOA might be a bi-product of the ball being a bit too far forwards. Clues are club path is a little more out to in than I'd want with an open clubface to compensate.

 

Try moving the ball back a little and comparing data, looking to get a more neutral path and clubface which would reduce spin.

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I would experiment with ball position ahead of doing anything. I like a good positive angle of attack but I'm guessing from the numbers that the AOA might be a bi-product of the ball being a bit too far forwards. Clues are club path is a little more out to in than I'd want with an open clubface to compensate.

 

Try moving the ball back a little and comparing data, looking to get a more neutral path and clubface which would reduce spin.

 

do you have any other data and or links to studies re: AOA and spin? I play my driver down at 8* but still get 15 -16 launch, I was thinking that hitting up on it would reduce spin but not sure how to optimize the parameters of AOA, launch spin and carry

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They seem to have taken the optimizer tool off of the trackman website. Looking at the chart, for your approx. ballspeed of 163 mph with a +5 AOA the optimum is (your numbers in brackets);

 

Launch 13.7 (Flash 13.7)

Backspin 2435 (Flash 2394)

Dynamic loft 15.2 (Flash 17.5)

Carry 279 (Flash 275)

 

So given your actual ballspeed is around 160, your numbers are really good but that dynamic loft of 17.5 is robbing you of a little ballspeed and adding to sidespin / backspin. I can see from your numbers you have a two way miss going depending on how far open the clubface is relative to swing path but the face is always open and the swingpath always out to in at impact. I can't give you numbers I'm afraid but do experiment with ball position. My instinct is dialling the loft down on the head is not the way to go as that will make it even more difficult for you to square the club at impact rather than currently being open (which is what the minus adjustment on the adapter does). Maintaining the positive AOA but with a more neutral path and clubface will be far more consistent and can add a few more yards vs chopping across the ball.

 

It's interesting that you used the same shaft as the impact position on Epic is a lot more toe up at impact than Rogue which suggests the base lie angle on Epic is more upright. Is the 43.5" the raw shaft length or playing length as for some people the ball creeps forwards to compensate for a club that is too long / upright. Make sure you don't use the more upright D setting on the Callaway and you might try gripping the club a little shorter when you move the ball back just to see how the numbers look.

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