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Hey guys, I currently have on ethe new Guru4's, but I am contmeplating going backwards to a G002 model. Could some of you fellow guru owners help me out please?

 

What am I giving up if I go from the guru4 to the G002 model? Besides...

 

Color = I play in Rx sunglasses, always.... so color is no biggy to me.

 

AerVu = Really didn't impress me. Unless they really improve this feature, I don't have much interest in it.

 

Size = The G002 fits nicely in your pocket. Trust me, the guru4 does not.

 

Advanced Stats = Here is where I need your help. What exactly does the G002 track? I assume you can mark each shot, but with the G002, when you mark your shot, do you select the club as well? I know the advanced scoring features are not available on the G002, but exactly which scoring features are on this machine?

 

I did talk to a GG rep about this, and I don't know if she was new or just incredibly busy due to the issues they are experiencing, but she couldn't give me a definite answer.

 

Any advice or answers would be appreciated. Please add any thoughts that you may have on other differences between the two units.

 

Thanks again,

colonel

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Hey guys, I currently have on ethe new Guru4's, but I am contmeplating going backwards to a G002 model. Could some of you fellow guru owners help me out please?

 

What am I giving up if I go from the guru4 to the G002 model? Besides...

 

Color = I play in Rx sunglasses, always.... so color is no biggy to me.

 

AerVu = Really didn't impress me. Unless they really improve this feature, I don't have much interest in it.

 

Size = The G002 fits nicely in your pocket. Trust me, the guru4 does not.

 

Advanced Stats = Here is where I need your help. What exactly does the G002 track? I assume you can mark each shot, but with the G002, when you mark your shot, do you select the club as well? I know the advanced scoring features are not available on the G002, but exactly which scoring features are on this machine?

 

I did talk to a GG rep about this, and I don't know if she was new or just incredibly busy due to the issues they are experiencing, but she couldn't give me a definite answer.

 

Any advice or answers would be appreciated. Please add any thoughts that you may have on other differences between the two units.

 

Thanks again,

colonel

 

Colonel,

I have a G002, but no experience on a G4. I have no plans on going to a G4 or anything similar because the G002 gives me all the info I need, sans the pretty pictures. The G002 does what it's supposed to do and does it exceptionally well in a nice little package with a big monchormatic display. The text is large and easy to read, even if you wear readers. I wear 1.5 magnifiers and using the guru without them is no problem. The hazards/targets are usually plentiful and appropriate on each hole. The smart green function works great and moving the pin location only requires a few bumps of the joystick. Toggling between displays is quick, requiring only one click between each of the three displays.

 

Specific to your stats and scoring functions, I have not used shot marking other than a few times. But I know you can easily measure your shot by pressing "Mark" and going to your ball. It will measure how far you've gone as you travel to your ball. You can also select the club and the lie location eg. teebox, fairway, rough. Franlkly I find all that to take away from the game, even though they make it easy. I'd rather figure that stuff out at the driving range and just play golf.

 

Scoring is easy and I usually keep score on the guru. At the end of each hole, it prompts you to enter your score, and you use the joystick to increase or decrease the shots taken above or below par, then you hit save. If you have the stats enabled you can also toggle with the joystick "yes" or "no" for FIR and GIR and # of putts before hitting save. Again, I only keep score, and I don't record, FIR, GIR, #putts.

 

Battery life on the G002 is also great. Frequently no bars down on the meter after playing 18. Maybe down to half after playing 36.

 

Overall, I've really enjoyed the G002. Their support is excellent for the few times I've needed it with product questions or mapping updates. I really hope they get the issues quickly resolved with the G4 and I sure hope they don't plan to stop offering the G002. The G002 is simple and a solid performer.

 

Hope thats helpful.

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One thing you give up with the 002 is the number of courses that it can hold, 20 vs 200 for the Guru 004. It has been a while since I have used the grayscale so I am not sure how viewable it is with sunglasses. I will have to double check that. As far as scoring and stats, you can track your score, fairway hit (yes/no), Green in regulation (yes/no) and number of putts. As for marking, you can choose the location (tee/fairway/rough/etc) and club, though it doesn't list hybrids or a lob wedge among the choices. You would have to use "other" for any of those or use one of the wood selections possibly.

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Thanks for the replies, fellows. The reduction in courses you can load onto the unit is not that big of a deal for me. According to the GG staff, even if they discontinue the manufacture of the G002, they will continue to support all of the current course mappings in their system and make future courses available for the G002/3.

 

From the information you shared with me, it seems like the G002 is the way for me to go. Better interface, smaller size, better battery life, and the same accuracy. Not to mention getting over $150 back for swapping out my current Guru4.

 

I thought the Guru4 was going to be a "new direction" in handheld golf GPS units and whle the GG gang have given it a shot, this time I think they have fallen a few yards shy of hitting their mark. Don't be suprised if you see another touchscreen model offerd in the future. I'm with Phil though, they could have offered a much better product and therefore made a lot more money, if they had field tested the Guru4 for a few months, making changes accordingly.

 

Thanks again for the help!

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One thing you give up with the 002 is the number of courses that it can hold, 20 vs 200 for the Guru 004. It has been a while since I have used the grayscale so I am not sure how viewable it is with sunglasses. I will have to double check that. As far as scoring and stats, you can track your score, fairway hit (yes/no), Green in regulation (yes/no) and number of putts. As for marking, you can choose the location (tee/fairway/rough/etc) and club, though it doesn't list hybrids or a lob wedge among the choices. You would have to use "other" for any of those or use one of the wood selections possibly.

 

The G002 can now hold 40 courses, any combo of community and my courses. This was a change when they rolled out the G4. I've got about 36 on mine right now and only 2 are "My..."

 

The G002 display can be seen fine with sunglasses, even polarized. The screen does have horizontal polarization film in it (like most LCD displays), which means the display turns black if you turn the unit 90 degrees right or left with polarized sunglasses on.

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For those still waiting, I just received an email notification that the G002 refurbs. are now available. BUT... when you go to the website, it says "limited quantities" and instead of "order now", it still says "notify me". This may be a cat and mouse process if you want to get one. And I'm sure that as time moves along, more will become available. I guess.

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[quote name='colonel' post='1831221' date='Jul 20 2009, 10:53 AM']What am I giving up if I go from the guru4 to the G002 model? Besides...

Color = I play in Rx sunglasses, always.... so color is no biggy to me.
AerVu = Really didn't impress me. Unless they really improve this feature, I don't have much interest in it.
Size = The G002 fits nicely in your pocket. Trust me, the guru4 does not.
Advanced Stats = Here is where I need your help. What exactly does the G002 track? I assume you can mark each shot, but with the G002, when you mark your shot, do you select the club as well? I know the advanced scoring features are not available on the G002, but exactly which scoring features are on this machine?[/quote]

Your assessment is spot on. I have pre-ordered a Guru 4 under the exchange/upgrade plan since my G002 was within its original 30 day period.

Color is a don't care for me, I just want my numbers, like you.

AerVu maps look nice and detailed but there is just not much to this feature other than dragging your finger around and getting readings to different points. If it could actually combine the Mark feature and somehow save historical data of your entire round shot by shot, that would be a bit more interesting. You could go home, download the entire history and say to your buddies "now, this shot, right here was fantastic!". There are so many neat things that could be done, it's just not done yet.

Size is definitely an issue with the Guru 4. It's a compromise. Guru 4 has a really large screen and it needs a large battery to feed that beast of a screen. Some think of the larger size as a benefit, some feel it's a disadvantage. I'm in the later party hence the returning of my Guru 4 and keeping of the G002.

The Advanced stats that are available on the Guru 4 and not on the G002/3 are only on the scoring screen. The Mark feature is identical on both units. They both store hole number, club selection and location of ball with every mark point. I have already griped to GG that it should also store at the very least the date and time of the mark. Currently there is no way to extract this Mark data from the G002/3 electronically. On the Guru4 you can manually copy the mark data files from the unit to your computer. The locations will be strictly GPS coordinates, and the club selection and ball location fileds will be integer values. You'd have to write some kind of front end to make anything useful from this data. It's a real shame.

While the G002 only keeps number of strokes, number of putts, whether you hit GIR and FIR for each hole played, the Guru 4 keeps track of the following values:
- Number of chip shots
- Number of bunker shots
- number of penalty shots
- fairway missed left or right if not FIR
- green missed left/right/long/short if not GIR
- a flag you can set if you feel you had poor concentration (?)

It also seems to have a Driving distance field in the stats on the Guru website but there is no way to have that stored with the current software. They might be working on that. I personally keep track of my strokes, putts, GIR, FIR, number of penalty strokes, club off tee and distance off tee. All on paper. I have lost round data with the G002 twice while the unit rebooted when I tried to mark a shot tat I no longer trust it for record keeping. There are 6 rows on the score card, I use them all :-).

For my more detailed assessment of the Guru 4 just search for my posts in the Guru 4 thread.

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Just a quick thought about the size...I think it depends what kind of player you are as to how the size will affect you. I walk with a push cart almost every round. If you do this, you can just mount the GG4 to the cart and it is perfect with the big screen. If you like to ride or walk with the unit in your pocket, then it is a little bulky. The G002 is great for pockets but some might think the screen is a little small mounted to a cart. I thought it was fine though.

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Today was my first chance to play with the Guru 4 and I made several observations. I typically ride so I only put a GPS in my pocket once in a while and I can "suffer" through the bulkiness those few times. Both walkers that I play with that use a GPS have them strapped to heir bag.

I don't usually keep stats on the course; I replay the round in my head when I get home and input the data into Intelligolf which I have used since the summer of 2001. However, even though I would not normally keep track I turned on scoring and advanced stats just to test them out and was frustrated at first trying to keep them until I got used to it. I then had no problem quickly tracking my stats (again, using the advanced stats feature) and keeping the scores on the "official" card for myself and the other two guys I played with , as well as tracking skins.

There are bugs with the scroll/page up/down arrow functionality, the distance to the pin in the SmartView screen, stat capture, and with mapping.

The mark feature works like it is supposed to. They need to add hybrids, Gap and lob wedges to the list of clubs and ideally have some way for the golfer to set his "bag" so one doesn't have to scroll through every club in the list.

I had the backlight at about 75-80% and dim time set at 30 sec. I found the display difficult but not impossible to read with that backlight setting in bright sunlight. After 4.5 hours, I had two bars on the battery indicator, which went to three when I exited the Guru application. I do not intend to charge the unit before I play again on Sunday.

AerVu needs some work. Let's just leave it at that.

I find the unit very easy to use and navigate around when I utilized a tee instead of my fingers/thumbs to tap the screen (I always have a tee in my pocket).

Having used the 002 and 003 in the past, I really like all of the standard views with the Guru 4, the target list screen is much easier to read, and I especially enjoy the SmartGreen view as it is so much easier to approximate the actual pin location on such a large depiction of the green. They need to fix the distance to the pin in that view as noted above; the near/far distances change appropriately but the pin seems to keep the distance to the center.

As a 002/003 user I didn't think I would be interested in this device but the larger screens are so nice that I think it is worth the upgrade for that alone. Getting greater functionality out of the AerVu feature would only be a bonus.

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[quote name='GTakacs' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:25 AM' post='1838850']


I have lost round data with the G002 twice while the unit rebooted when I tried to mark a shot that I no longer trust it for record keeping.

This is exactly what I experienced and reported in a separate post "Gguru Shuts Down on "Mark".

This just started happening where as the "Mark" feature has always worked in the past.

I e-mailed Gguru support 4-5 days ago and they have not responded. Is their customer support starting to slip or are all of their efforts being diverted to the v4 unit?

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I have been using the G002 and had a few issues with the local courses. Just wondering, does your unit read 0 or 1 yard when you are standing on the edge of the greens, or are some holes out? It seems like every 3rd or 4th hole reads 10-15 yards when I am standing on the edge. They had re-mapped the course but it still seems to be off on several holes. Also on one tee box yesterday there were smaller trees and bushes fairly close to the right side of the tees, and the unit started fluctuating from 155-210 yards and never settled down to a yardage that seemed right. Does this happen with trees from time to time? Do I maybe have a bad unit? I live in Canada and wonder if the mapping is done differently and maybe is not as accurate as the US. I am starting to get frustrated, and don't really have confidence in the yardages it displays at this point. thanks for any info

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MrFlapjack - I have had similar issues with my GG2... readings of something else other than 0 when standing on the edge of the green. I have seen this on most courses I've played which leads me to believe it's not a mapping issue. I even remapped the greens on my home course and still get the same results. In the end, it's not really a problem for me. I am comfortable with the readings to the pin on my approach shots outside 50 yards.

I've also experienced the other issue you mention..[b] "[/b]the unit started fluctuating from 155-210 yards and never settled down to a yardage". I see this more when I go to the green view and move the pin placement. I'm not sure what's happening, but I have noticed the unit will finally make the adjustments and settle on a yardage if I wait long enough - probably about 30 to 45 seconds. I was considering the GG4, but based on the comments thus far, I'll wait til they get the bugs worked out and get more of the AerVu courses mapped.

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In the group that I play with three of us have GPS units (1 Igolf and 2 Guru G002). When we compare yardages we are always spot on with each other. Furthermore, I never find my unit bouncing between yardage unless I am moving.



If you unit is bouncing around between 155-210 yards it sound like a faulty unit.

GTakacs has more accurate information about GPS accuracy than I do.

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Question for Phil and other G003 color guru users:

How does the backlight works on the color guru? Is there a dim time for the unit to turn off the backlight or is it always on? Also, Is the unit screen easy to read on direct sunlight?

Again, these questions are regarding the discontinued G003 color unit.. I'm considering picking one up since I'm not really interested in the Airvu sp? images..

Thanks,

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[quote name='PlaneMaker' post='1844125' date='Jul 26 2009, 01:39 PM']You also need to remember GPS units are by law not allowed pinpoint accuracy so being 5 yards off would not be unusual for any GPS unit.[/quote]

There is no such thing as GPS units being limited in accuracy by law. There used to be something called Selective Availability in the GPS stream coming from the satellites that limited accuracy inherently. Such system has been disabled in 2000 under President Clinton. Given that all new GPS satellites don't even support such feature the likelyhood of having Selective Availability turned back on again is slim to none. With Selective Availability turned on all GPS units would be rendered useless for all practical purposes.

Current GPS units that are used for surveys are accurate down to 2mm using carrier phase tracking.

[quote]If you unit is bouncing around between 155-210 yards it sound like a faulty unit. The only time that trees should affect a GPS is if there is dense canopy over the top of you.[/quote]

Again, not true. GPS satellites are all over the visible sky, some are at much closer to the horizon than you might think. Actually the closer to the horizon they are and further away from each other the more accurate the location.

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[quote name='golf_fanatik' post='1844426' date='Jul 26 2009, 05:13 PM']Question for Phil and other G003 color guru users:

How does the backlight works on the color guru? Is there a dim time for the unit to turn off the backlight or is it always on? Also, Is the unit screen easy to read on direct sunlight?

Again, these questions are regarding the discontinued G003 color unit.. I'm considering picking one up since I'm not really interested in the Airvu sp? images..

Thanks,[/quote]

Yes, you can set the amount of delay before the display gets turned off on the 003 (it goes black, it does not dim). I don't have my color unit with me right now, but I think they added an "always on" setting as well for the backlight at the request of a number of users. I think they figure that you would get about 5 hours, perhaps a little more, with that setting and it is for those that use auto advance and want as little interaction with the device as possible and who don't mind recharging between rounds.

The 003 is very readable in sunlight, perhaps even a little easier to read then the new Guru 4 under the same conditions. I think the reason why is that the background on the 003 is pure white and despite being a color device makes very little use of color, limited almost to the SmartGreen view. The Guru 4 background is a light beige, and they make better use of color on all the screens but perhaps at the expense of slightly less readability in bright sunlight.

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Thanks for the information guys. At this point I probably need to map out all the greens myself and see if that helps. If it still seems to be off in yardage I will contact tech support about a possible replacement, or a second unit to try.

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[quote name='PlaneMaker' post='1844750' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:13 PM']When I use my Garmin eTrex the most accurate it would ever register was 10 feet.[/quote]

10 feet might seem like a lot but that is pretty much as good as it has to get when it comes to conventional GPS without carrier phase tracking. Even with WAAS enabled GPS the requirement is to provide a position accuracy of 7.6 meters or better (for both lateral and vertical measurements), at least 95% of the time. Anything better than that and it's just gravy.

Here is a link to an article that plots accuracy curves for both WAAS and non-WAAS receivers. [url="http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm"]http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm[/url]

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[quote name='GTakacs' post='1845460' date='Jul 27 2009, 07:43 AM'][quote name='PlaneMaker' post='1844750' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:13 PM']When I use my Garmin eTrex the most accurate it would ever register was 10 feet.[/quote]

10 feet might seem like a lot but that is pretty much as good as it has to get when it comes to conventional GPS without carrier phase tracking. Even with WAAS enabled GPS the requirement is to provide a position accuracy of 7.6 meters or better (for both lateral and vertical measurements), at least 95% of the time. Anything better than that and it's just gravy.

Here is a link to an article that plots accuracy curves for both WAAS and non-WAAS receivers. [url="http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm"]http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm[/url]
[/quote]

Uh.....the information on that site is from 2001 and is outdated. A lot has changed with GPS technology since then. The 7M spec was the original WAAS spec but does not reflect actual performance of the system today. The FAA tests WAAS accuracy monthly and for June 2009 the 'mean' was under 2M and the worst site was still under 3.

Here is what Garmin says about relative accuracy of various forms of GPS:

100 meters: Accuracy of the original GPS system, which was subject to accuracy degradation under the government-imposed Selective Availability (SA) program.

15 meters: Typical GPS position accuracy without SA.

3-5 meters: Typical differential GPS (DGPS) position accuracy.

< 3 meters: Typical WAAS position accuracy.

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[quote name='phil75070' post='1845498' date='Jul 27 2009, 08:15 AM']Uh.....the information on that site is from 2001 and is outdated. A lot has changed with GPS technology since then. The 7M spec was the original WAAS spec but does not reflect actual performance of the system today. The FAA tests WAAS accuracy monthly and for June 2009 the 'mean' was under 2M and the worst site was still under 3.
< 3 meters: Typical WAAS position accuracy.[/quote]

Straight from the bottom of the website I have linked: [b]The above analysis shows that WAAS can improve the accuracy of position measurement. WAAS gave 95% of the time horizontal position within 3.2 meters and vertical position within 6.0 meters in these tests. Averaging for2 or 3 hours reduced this to 95% of the time horizontal position within 2 meters and vertical position within 4 meters.[/b]

How is that different from saying Typical WAAS position accuracy < 3 meters? Sounds like nothing has changed in the past 8 years. And FYI 3.2 meters = 10.4 ft, the exact accuracy the above poster has mentioned.

Phil, if you want to pick a pissing contest, pick on someone else.....

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I played another course course yesterday (Kananaskis) and had bad yardage readings with my G002. One of the guys I played with had a SC 2.5, and on one hole the yardages were exact on front to back. Then on another hole mine read 236 to center, and his read 285. Several other holes were wrong as well, and the green outlines looked nothing like the actual green. Do you have to map the greens yourself to get any accuracy for all 18 holes? I get more frustrated everytime I use this thing, since I have to check for marked course yardages, and then see if the GPS yardages are even close. Does anyone else experience this on a regular basis with the GG maps? Do you regularly have to map the greens yourself? thanks

Update:

I played 4 courses in Minnesota, and they were all mapped perfectly. Maybe they have a problem mapping Canadian courses.

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[quote name='MrFlapjack' post='1862975' date='Aug 4 2009, 12:01 AM']I played another course course yesterday (Kananaskis) and had bad yardage readings with my G002. One of the guys I played with had a SC 2.5, and on one hole the yardages were exact on front to back. Then on another hole mine read 236 to center, and his read 285. Several other holes were wrong as well, and the green outlines looked nothing like the actual green. Do you have to map the greens yourself to get any accuracy for all 18 holes? I get more frustrated everytime I use this thing, since I have to check for marked course yardages, and then see if the GPS yardages are even close. Does anyone else experience this on a regular basis with the GG maps? Do you regularly have to map the greens yourself? thanks[/quote]

just ask them to remap it and they will take care of it. i think i've only had a yardage problem once and that was probably me w/ a bad shot. otherwise every time i've stood on a marker it was either exactly the yardage or 1 yard off which is pretty amazing. honestly, i trust the gg yardage over anything else (someone else's gps, cart gps...) and it has served me well. i did have a mapping problem once where a course was repeated (2 courses at the club) just w/ the different name. They fixed it but then every hole was a par 4 (correct yardage though). they fixed that promptly. i have no problem w/ mistakes if they take care of it right away.

my current dilema is i'm loving this iPhone app Golfshot but since i trust the GG so much been using both lol.

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    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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