Manual de la Torre Method

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  • The PearlThe Pearl  1982Members Posts: 1,982
    Joined:  #992
    Many of you are familiar with John Hayes. He sends out a free monthly newsletter that contains a tip or drill based on MDLT's principles.



    This last month's contained one I had not heard of prior:



    1. Use your PW

    2. Place a ball on the target line 3 or 4 inches ahead of the ball you intend to hit.

    3. Focus on the ball in front of your actual ball and try to swing the club with the intention of sweeping the grass under the front ball.

    4. You will hit both balls.



    I have tried it. Very difficult. The real ball goes pretty good, but the forward ball always pulls to the left. Not sure if this is normal or not.



    Purpose: The purpose of the drill is to get the feedback on what it is like to swing the whole club.



    Good luck.
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  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #993
    I don't recall Manny teaching that but he often told students to brush the turf on the target side of the ball. Same thing sort of.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • PreppySlapCutPreppySlapCut This is just babytown frolics...  6470Members Posts: 6,470
    Joined:  #994
    The Pearl wrote:


    Many of you are familiar with John Hayes. He sends out a free monthly newsletter that contains a tip or drill based on MDLT's principles.



    This last month's contained one I had not heard of prior:



    1. Use your PW

    2. Place a ball on the target line 3 or 4 inches ahead of the ball you intend to hit.

    3. Focus on the ball in front of your actual ball and try to swing the club with the intention of sweeping the grass under the front ball.

    4. You will hit both balls.



    I have tried it. Very difficult. The real ball goes pretty good, but the forward ball always pulls to the left. Not sure if this is normal or not.



    Purpose: The purpose of the drill is to get the feedback on what it is like to swing the whole club.



    Good luck.


    The front ball is going to go left. It’s just geometry.
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  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #995

    The Pearl wrote:


    Many of you are familiar with John Hayes. He sends out a free monthly newsletter that contains a tip or drill based on MDLT's principles.



    This last month's contained one I had not heard of prior:



    1. Use your PW

    2. Place a ball on the target line 3 or 4 inches ahead of the ball you intend to hit.

    3. Focus on the ball in front of your actual ball and try to swing the club with the intention of sweeping the grass under the front ball.

    4. You will hit both balls.



    I have tried it. Very difficult. The real ball goes pretty good, but the forward ball always pulls to the left. Not sure if this is normal or not.



    Purpose: The purpose of the drill is to get the feedback on what it is like to swing the whole club.



    Good luck.


    The front ball is going to go left. It's just geometry.




    That seems correct but do you think it is criticism of Hayes' drill?



    Steve
    Posted:
  • The PearlThe Pearl  1982Members Posts: 1,982
    Joined:  #996

    The Pearl wrote:


    Many of you are familiar with John Hayes. He sends out a free monthly newsletter that contains a tip or drill based on MDLT's principles.



    This last month's contained one I had not heard of prior:



    1. Use your PW

    2. Place a ball on the target line 3 or 4 inches ahead of the ball you intend to hit.

    3. Focus on the ball in front of your actual ball and try to swing the club with the intention of sweeping the grass under the front ball.

    4. You will hit both balls.



    I have tried it. Very difficult. The real ball goes pretty good, but the forward ball always pulls to the left. Not sure if this is normal or not.



    Purpose: The purpose of the drill is to get the feedback on what it is like to swing the whole club.



    Good luck.


    The front ball is going to go left. It's just geometry.




    One would think this is a logical conclusion and this was my reasoning also.



    I could email John to see what he thinks.
    Posted:
  • The PearlThe Pearl  1982Members Posts: 1,982
    Joined:  #997
    juststeve wrote:


    I don't recall Manny teaching that but he often told students to brush the turf on the target side of the ball. Same thing sort of.



    Steve




    Yes, I suspect this the goal is the same.





    One thing that might help folks, and Steve can give his input...I can make the mistake of interpreting "brush the grass" with "hitting the grass" on the other side of the ball. I never really thought about the concept of brushing the crash in depth before. This drill, when I first attempted it, I found myself, at least unintentionally trying to hit the forward ball by almost swinging over the main ball.



    Words have meaning!
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  • marcwhumarcwhu  65Members Posts: 65
    Joined:  #998
    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc
    Posted:
  • Jersey golferJersey golfer  463Members Posts: 463
    Joined:  #999
    marcwhu wrote:


    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc




    See if this link at the 36.37 mark answers your question.



    Posted:
  • marcwhumarcwhu  65Members Posts: 65
    Joined:  #1000

    marcwhu wrote:


    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc




    See if this link at the 36.37 mark answers your question.






    Very reassuring. Seems like he encourages a little cup with a neutral grip. Thanks a lot!
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1001
    marcwhu wrote:


    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc




    1. First thing. Stay away from instructors who do not teach Manny's swing if you want to follow Manny. What others teach might be valid but its not what Manny taught. Mixing the two is not good.



    2. What would Manny say?



    Manny would tell you that the wrist position at the top is dictated by two main factors. 1) how you place your hands on the club, , ie. strong, weak or neutral grip; and 2) the way your arms and hands are constructed. He would tell you these things differ from one person t the next and therefore there is no one correct wrist position for everyone.



    You might be relieved to know that Manny's left wrist was slightly cupped a the end of his back swing and he hit the ball really well.



    Steve.
    Posted:
  • marcwhumarcwhu  65Members Posts: 65
    Joined:  #1002
    juststeve wrote:

    marcwhu wrote:


    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc




    1. First thing. Stay away from instructors who do not teach Manny's swing if you want to follow Manny. What others teach might be valid but its not what Manny taught. Mixing the two is not good.



    2. What would Manny say?



    Manny would tell you that the wrist position at the top is dictated by two main factors. 1) how you place your hands on the club, , ie. strong, weak or neutral grip; and 2) the way your arms and hands are constructed. He would tell you these things differ from one person t the next and therefore there is no one correct wrist position for everyone.



    You might be relieved to know that Manny's left wrist was slightly cupped a the end of his back swing and he hit the ball really well.



    Steve.


    Thank you for the reply Steve.



    1. As a devout follower of GolfWRX and all things instruction, I've found this very difficult. But I agree that it is necessary. The MDLT method obviously works, and there is no real reason for me to try anything else.



    2. I did see that yes. Again, trying to focus on swinging the club rather than body positions should serve me well.



    As an aspiring tournament golfer (to which level remains to be seen), is this method a viable option? Are there any tour pro's past or present who has stated they use MDLT's method? Apologies if this has been asked and answered already.



    Marc
    Posted:
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  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1003
    marcwhu wrote:

    juststeve wrote:

    marcwhu wrote:


    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc




    1. First thing. Stay away from instructors who do not teach Manny's swing if you want to follow Manny. What others teach might be valid but its not what Manny taught. Mixing the two is not good.



    2. What would Manny say?



    Manny would tell you that the wrist position at the top is dictated by two main factors. 1) how you place your hands on the club, , ie. strong, weak or neutral grip; and 2) the way your arms and hands are constructed. He would tell you these things differ from one person t the next and therefore there is no one correct wrist position for everyone.



    You might be relieved to know that Manny's left wrist was slightly cupped a the end of his back swing and he hit the ball really well.



    Steve.


    Thank you for the reply Steve.



    1. As a devout follower of GolfWRX and all things instruction, I've found this very difficult. But I agree that it is necessary. The MDLT method obviously works, and there is no real reason for me to try anything else.



    2. I did see that yes. Again, trying to focus on swinging the club rather than body positions should serve me well.



    As an aspiring tournament golfer (to which level remains to be seen), is this method a viable option? Are there any tour pro's past or present who has stated they use MDLT's method? Apologies if this has been asked and answered already.



    Marc




    Your question about Pros raises another interesting question, what is the MLDT method? At it's core the method involves swinging the golf club, on a consistent arc, in the direction of the target. At that level virtually all of the tour pros use the method.



    There is a second level that involves what to do to make the club swing on a consistent arc i the direction of the target. Manny believed, as to I that easiest way to do that is to swing the club back with the hands and forward with the arms in one continuous motion allowing the body to respond. That is what Manny taught people to do, however h was interesting in what the club did, not how it was done. Therefore if someone came to him who was moving the club properly and consistently by doing something else he wouldn't touch their swing, and he wouold't charge them either.



    As to pros who were students of Manny, Tommy Aaron won a masters and Ted Purdy a Byron Nelson with a pure MDLT action. Many himself was an accomplished tournament golfer at the state level winning a number of Wisconsin Opens and Wisconsin PGAs. If you simply Google "Manuel de la Torre golf swing" you will quick find a short video of Manny,near 70 years old, hitting balls. Quite inspiring to watch.



    To answer your question, there is nothing about his method that will prevent you from being as good a your talent and capacity for work will allow.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • marcwhumarcwhu  65Members Posts: 65
    Joined:  #1004
    juststeve wrote:

    marcwhu wrote:

    juststeve wrote:

    marcwhu wrote:


    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc




    1. First thing. Stay away from instructors who do not teach Manny's swing if you want to follow Manny. What others teach might be valid but its not what Manny taught. Mixing the two is not good.



    2. What would Manny say?



    Manny would tell you that the wrist position at the top is dictated by two main factors. 1) how you place your hands on the club, , ie. strong, weak or neutral grip; and 2) the way your arms and hands are constructed. He would tell you these things differ from one person t the next and therefore there is no one correct wrist position for everyone.



    You might be relieved to know that Manny's left wrist was slightly cupped a the end of his back swing and he hit the ball really well.



    Steve.


    Thank you for the reply Steve.



    1. As a devout follower of GolfWRX and all things instruction, I've found this very difficult. But I agree that it is necessary. The MDLT method obviously works, and there is no real reason for me to try anything else.



    2. I did see that yes. Again, trying to focus on swinging the club rather than body positions should serve me well.



    As an aspiring tournament golfer (to which level remains to be seen), is this method a viable option? Are there any tour pro's past or present who has stated they use MDLT's method? Apologies if this has been asked and answered already.



    Marc




    Your question about Pros raises another interesting question, what is the MLDT method? At it's core the method involves swinging the golf club, on a consistent arc, in the direction of the target. At that level virtually all of the tour pros use the method.



    There is a second level that involves what to do to make the club swing on a consistent arc i the direction of the target. Manny believed, as to I that easiest way to do that is to swing the club back with the hands and forward with the arms in one continuous motion allowing the body to respond. That is what Manny taught people to do, however h was interesting in what the club did, not how it was done. Therefore if someone came to him who was moving the club properly and consistently by doing something else he wouldn't touch their swing, and he wouold't charge them either.



    As to pros who were students of Manny, Tommy Aaron won a masters and Ted Purdy a Byron Nelson with a pure MDLT action. Many himself was an accomplished tournament golfer at the state level winning a number of Wisconsin Opens and Wisconsin PGAs. If you simply Google "Manuel de la Torre golf swing" you will quick find a short video of Manny,near 70 years old, hitting balls. Quite inspiring to watch.



    To answer your question, there is nothing about his method that will prevent you from being as good a your talent and capacity for work will allow.



    Steve


    Thank you so much for the response. I guess a part of me refuses to believe it can be this simple.



    I am playing an event in a couple weeks time. I will tunnel vision on the principles of Mr. de la Torre between now and then. Really interested to see how my scores might change, as previous tournaments have invariably been played with a million swing thoughts floating around in my head.



    Regardless, thank you again.



    All the best

    Marc
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1005
    Tunnel vision is great but do't expect too much. Manny's system is simple but hat isn't the same easy. It takes tie to learn to execute the simple motion well and consistently.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • marcwhumarcwhu  65Members Posts: 65
    Joined:  #1006
    Anyone have any experience in overcoming the body driven swing? I was a previous GG disciple, and I am finding it extremely difficult to implement MDLT on the course. Shot my highest differential in 4 months today☹️
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1007
    I haven no such experience. I learned to swing from Manny when I first picked up a golf club. I did however play other sports at a fairy high level before I took up golf and in those sports I had to make some changes. Perseverance was the key. If you want to adopt the MDLT swing method you will need to persevere through the rough patches keeping the goal in mind. On the other hand some people play great with a body driven swing. There is no reason you have to change.



    To tame he body action you might try hitting balls, a lot of balls, with your feet together, right together, actually touching. Hard to over use the body from that position.



    Steve
    Posted:
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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee  1733Members Posts: 1,733
    Joined:  #1008
    Another way to practice the arms forward swing is using the iTeach drill. You should be able to do this drill with keeping the lower body and shoulders passive/reactive. The drill also improved my back swing tremendously.



    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/791161-get-your-arm-swing-and-pivot-in-sync/page__hl__ sync
    Posted:
  • eric13eric13  51Members Posts: 51
    Joined:  #1009
    I gave it a try with great preliminary success. Now to take it to the course.
    Posted:
  • marcwhumarcwhu  65Members Posts: 65
    Joined:  #1010
    juststeve wrote:


    I haven no such experience. I learned to swing from Manny when I first picked up a golf club. I did however play other sports at a fairy high level before I took up golf and in those sports I had to make some changes. Perseverance was the key. If you want to adopt the MDLT swing method you will need to persevere through the rough patches keeping the goal in mind. On the other hand some people play great with a body driven swing. There is no reason you have to change.



    To tame he body action you might try hitting balls, a lot of balls, with your feet together, right together, actually touching. Hard to over use the body from that position.



    Steve


    I guess I was looking for a simpler method than GG, which I found difficult to implement without seeing him in person, and down here in South Africa there aren't too many instructors clued up in his methods. I was/am looking for something more low maintenance, with a larger margin for error, and MDLT seems like the answer. Would that be your experience too? The margin for error bit in particular.
    Posted:
  • oukeithoukeith Michigan 174Members Posts: 174
    Joined:  edited Jan 12, 2019 1:17pm #1011
    marcwhu wrote:
    1. As a devout follower of GolfWRX and all things instruction, I've found this very difficult. But I agree that it is necessary. The MDLT method obviously works, and there is no real reason for me to try anything else.




    Oddly enough, when I found that I was very comfortable with Manuel’s principles and found some initial success, I had the opposite response. There is no reason to keep nerding out on golf YouTube videos and message boards anymore. I know what I am trying to accomplish and feel no real urge to muddy the waters....and that took some of the fun out of it, in a weird way. Good problem to have though.



    And we will see how long that lasts. :-)



    YMMV
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1012
    marcwhu wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    I haven no such experience. I learned to swing from Manny when I first picked up a golf club. I did however play other sports at a fairy high level before I took up golf and in those sports I had to make some changes. Perseverance was the key. If you want to adopt the MDLT swing method you will need to persevere through the rough patches keeping the goal in mind. On the other hand some people play great with a body driven swing. There is no reason you have to change.



    To tame he body action you might try hitting balls, a lot of balls, with your feet together, right together, actually touching. Hard to over use the body from that position.



    Steve


    I guess I was looking for a simpler method than GG, which I found difficult to implement without seeing him in person, and down here in South Africa there aren't too many instructors clued up in his methods. I was/am looking for something more low maintenance, with a larger margin for error, and MDLT seems like the answer. Would that be your experience too? The margin for error bit in particular.




    You might have an easier time finding someone who teaches the Ernest Jones Method in South Africa. Different language but very much the same concept. What Jones taught was the foundation for what Manny taught.



    Steve
    Posted:
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  • BrianMcGBrianMcG  2376Members Posts: 2,376
    Joined:  edited Jan 14, 2019 6:37pm #1013
    After watching many interviews of Manuel on the golf channel, and reading through this thread, I remembered this little video of Seve Ballesteros hitting golf balls. The way he swings makes me think of Manuel's method. What do you guys think?



    https://www.youtube....o7cZnZ8s&t=261s



    If this has been posted before I apologize. 34 pages is a lot.
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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee  1733Members Posts: 1,733
    Joined:  #1014
    BrianMcG wrote:


    After watching many interviews of Manuel on the golf channel, and reading through this thread, I remembered this little video of Seve Ballesteros hitting golf balls. THe way he swings makes me think of Manuel's method. What do you guys think?



    https://www.youtube....o7cZnZ8s&t=261s



    If this has been posted before I apologize. 34 pages is a lot.




    I can see the similarities for sure.
    Posted:
  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1015
    If you focus on the way the club moves all good ball strikers are very similar. There is only one way the club an move to strike the ball straight to the target, Apart from that Seve sets the club much lie Manny at the end of the back swing, and his body reacts in much the same way. I'd love to know what Seve was thinking as he swung the club.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • The PearlThe Pearl  1982Members Posts: 1,982
    Joined:  edited Jan 17, 2019 1:24pm #1016
    Doesn't seem to be a bit of tension in Seve's movement. Like watching water flow.
    Posted:
  • EdStrakerEdStraker  52Members Posts: 52
    Joined:  edited Jan 28, 2019 9:18pm #1017
    My ball striking has improved and I am getting good results with Manuel de la Torre's method. With the driver, I am doing one thing different from what Manuel recommended. I find if I have the ball more forward that the results are better. My guess is that I get too much spin if I hit the driver in the middle of my stance.



    I prefer MLDT's though of swinging the 'entire club' vs just swinging the clubhead.
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  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1018
    EdStraker wrote:


    My ball striking has improved and I am getting good results with Manuel de la Torre's method. With the driver, I am doing one thing different from what Manuel recommended. I find if I have the ball more forward that the results are better. My guess is that I get too much spin if I hit the driver with the ball in the middle of my stance.



    I prefer MLDT's though of swinging the 'entire club' vs just swinging the clubhead.




    Manny did teach swinging the entire club and not just the club head, (as per Earnest Jones) but I will let you in on a secret. It is impossible to swing just the club head. If the club head is swinging so is the handle and the shaft. While the terminology differed, I'm not at all sure Manny and Jones were teaching different things.



    Steve
    Posted:
  • BigEx44BigEx44  321Members Posts: 321
    Joined:  #1019

    marcwhu wrote:


    Steve.



    As a younger person (22), I have found Manuel's teachings to be incredibly effective in my own game. Having come from an extremely body orientated motion before without seeing results, this is a breath of fresh air.



    Now for my question. On Monday, I went to see a well renowned coach in my area. He immediately pointed out that my wrist is cupped at the top of the backswing, and stated that that position makes consistency in ballstriking almost impossible. What was Manuel's belief on wrist positions at the top of the swing, if he even had any? Swinging the club with my hands to over my right shoulder naturally gets me in a cupped position. Could this be grip related?



    Thanks in advance.



    Marc




    See if this link at the 36.37 mark answers your question.



    https://www.youtube....h?v=F-hYlxnB5OM




    When are you going to the Heartland golf school?
    Posted:
  • The PearlThe Pearl  1982Members Posts: 1,982
    Joined:  #1020
    It has been a few years since I took my lesson with Manny. The main thing I work on now is tension in the swing. One "concept" that may help is not to confuse "tension free" with swinging easy. I have made this mistake off and on. I have learned through trial and error that you can swing easy but still have tension.



    All of my tension occurs in transition. More specifically in the upper arms, shoulder joints, and upper back. I believe much of this was a result of trying to engage the upper arms in order to swing the entire club towards the target. I have no problem with tension at address or at the start of the backswing. My sole focus now is to feel no tension in transition as opposed to solely focusing on using the upper arms. This seems to work much better for me.



    Swing the entire club towards the target with your upper arms as fast as you can without adding tension through the entire motion and while staying centered and on balance.
    Posted:
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  • juststevejuststeve  4914Members Posts: 4,914
    Joined:  #1021
    I'm not sure about swinging "as fast as you can", but the rest is very good.



    Steve
    Posted:
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