Huge discrepancy in chipping advice. Mickelson/Sieckmann

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Sponsors Posts: 18,290 ✭✭
    Separation in segments and deceleration curves in full swing are for speed.



    Intuitively, your body knows not to do those things for a touch shot, thus the different KS.



    I have made swings on pitches where the club starts first. Anyone who has tired that will see it’s probably not the case :-)



  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,549 ✭✭
    gatorMD wrote:


    **** Monte the mud shot handle up technique really just blew my mind. I am terrible at those muddy lies and we get them a lot here in florida. This was amazing right off the bat on the practice tee and course. WOW just WOW is all i have to say. Thanks for all the great info as usual.




    Gator, I bought 2.0 like 5 or 6 months ago. Completely changed my shortgame. Immediately. It’s not a joke. My shortgame is actually decent now for the first time.
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  • gatorMDgatorMD Hacker-in-Chief ClubWRX Posts: 4,564 ClubWRX
    ebrasmus21 wrote:

    gatorMD wrote:


    **** Monte the mud shot handle up technique really just blew my mind. I am terrible at those muddy lies and we get them a lot here in florida. This was amazing right off the bat on the practice tee and course. WOW just WOW is all i have to say. Thanks for all the great info as usual.




    Gator, I bought 2.0 like 5 or 6 months ago. Completely changed my shortgame. Immediately. It's not a joke. My shortgame is actually decent now for the first time.




    i agree great video.
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  • Ironstinger13Ironstinger13 Members Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Jason Day style. Rotate, rotate, rotate
  • GolfjackGolfjack All about the rotation Members Posts: 1,055 ✭✭


    What I teach is more the JS way. One is not better than the other. I BELIEVE the way I teach it has a greater margin of error.



    Three things to consider.



    1. Seve ca be seen hitting shots both ways.

    2. Phil can be seen hitting shots both ways and I watched him practice what would be called JS way for 2 straight hours a few years ago.

    3. You have to be careful with, "There is only one right way."




    What I BELIEVE is that Monte is still humble even though he's the man.



    Yeah, short game stuff is great, and the best pro's have a lot of shots in their bag. Amateurs just need to master 1 or two. Also because we don't have the time to master that many short game shots. Also Phil's way that he is talking about is clearly less forgiving, and what I've learned about golf is I always want to do the task in the easiest way possible with the least amount of risk. Thus the JS(Monte) way is where most amateurs and even pro's would go unless it calls for a lower trajectory spinner or whatever shot Phil tries to do in that occasion.
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  • ebrasmus21ebrasmus21 Serial Shanker CAMembers Posts: 5,549 ✭✭
    Things that have worked for me since purchasing Use the Bounce 2.0



    1. For 98% of short game shots I keep my hands a little bit higher than normal at address

    2. For all lofted pitch shots I open the face slightly - not even because I necessarily want more loft. I do it for the bounce

    3. Practice swings I exaggerate the follow through to make sure I get the feeling of keeping my right arm moving through the shot

    4. Basically just practice two shots. Bump and run and the lofted pitch. I tried to use those shots exclusively if I can

    5. I really do think about "tossing the golf ball" rather than "hitting the ball"
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  • glkglk send it in jerome Members Posts: 3,398 ✭✭
    Since Day's been mentioned thought looking at his wedge swing versus full swing would be interesting.



    On the wedge, he is doing a cast/chop. Shallowing via inplane movement, right arm is pretty straight at impact, chest remains high, things move forward pretty much in synch, and upon release his arms continue the "chop" movement to the left, low point is at the ball not in front. He pretty much keeps the club in front of him the entire time. I watched Shauffele on Sunday and he put on a pitching clinic like this too. Day's not unique if you watch the best short game folks they all do pretty much the same thing.

    [media=]



    On the full swing, he shallows in transition, lowers his body, has the right arm bent at impact, low point in front of ball, lower body clearly leads, upon release his arms extend in front of his body while complete his rotation.



    [media=]



    In short, the wedge game be it a 15 yard pitch, 60, or 100 yards is a different animal than the full swing. Different goals so different mechanics.
  • OakLawnGolfProOakLawnGolfPro Members Posts: 149 ✭✭
    As someone who developed the Yips, Phil style is not where I'm going to lean towards. Give me the bounce and as much of it as I can get!
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  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members Posts: 814 ✭✭
    Good Topic. My basic chip is the Mickelson method, and it just happened naturally as a teenager. I didn't make that choice, and my short game has always been my strong suit. That being said, it doesn't make it the perfect way. All pros hit shots both ways. I hit many shots where the club passes the hands at impact, they just go higher. Turf conditions and the shot in front of me dictate whether i'm letting the club pass or not.



    When I teach chipping to beginners, I teach the BLT method first:



    Ball in back of stance

    Lean into shot(weight forward)

    Tilt shaft forward slightly(hands in front)



    This is obviously a mickelson style approach. I first heard this at the PGA learning center in Port St Lucie. The next time i recall hearing it was at the Kohler Golf Academy in WI. What I have learned from this though, is that what makes this method work is that is minimizes leg and head movement, and makes the move simple. Its not the forward press and amount of weight forward. I still teach this method but am more lenient towards letting the club pass, or having the ball more in the middle of stance to allow a shallower angle if that is the natural move of that person.



    Second, for the high shot, we do closer the opposite.

    Ball middle to front

    even weight distribution

    hands slightly behind club(note that the hands are always in the middle of stance regardless of shot type, and ball/clubhead position moves)



    This allows for the higher shot, with bounce activated, and a shallower AoA. Now that you can hit both, its up to you to to determine which to use and when.



    I will say this though, when you see a pro hit a short chip from the rough around the green, they seem to do an extreme of either one. Either a weight forward stab, or a little bunker style open face sweep if the rough is gnarly. They don't ever get stuck in between, and can hit both confidently.
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  • TheCityGameTheCityGame Traj like Minaj Members Posts: 15,377 ✭✭
    Phil's got a new video up on instagram and seems to be addressing people who have argued with him about alternate techniques. He basically titles the video, "validating my position there is only one way to chip". its a two-parter.




    To bring it back to the JS-method vs his method, he literally says that if the club is traveling faster than the arms, it's very hard to control speed.



    "Club travelling faster than the arms" is something Sieckmann promotes in the video I shared in the OP (about the 1:05 mark).



    Someone needs to get these guys together. I actually don't think they're as far apart as it seems at first. They both exaggerate the technique they're not promoting to a massive extent. Phil is displaying a total flip move when he describes the opposite of his move and that's not what JS is describing.
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  • dapdap Members Posts: 2,563 ✭✭
    jut111 wrote:


    Your hands can be in front of the club while also engaging the bounce. Not mutually exclusive


    This is precisely how Mickelson chips. People wrongly assume Phil doesn't use the bounce with his hinge and hold. You can get forward shaft lean without digging in the leading edge as long as you 1. don't roll your wrists over and shut the face and 2. you use a club with a lot of bounce or with a very wide sole. Mickelson chips with a 60 deg wedge with a very wide sole. You can see quite clearly in the video the club contacts the ground behind the ball and the club doesn't dig. He is using the bounce. I personally don't like the hinge and hold because there is extra timing required due to the wrists cocking and uncocking, not because you can't use the bounce.



  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,677 ✭✭


    Phil's got a new video up on instagram and seems to be addressing people who have argued with him about alternate techniques. He basically titles the video, "validating my position there is only one way to chip". its a two-parter. https://www.instagra.../p/BsmfBRhA7id/



    To bring it back to the JS-method vs his method, he literally says that if the club is traveling faster than the arms, it's very hard to control speed.



    "Club travelling faster than the arms" is something Sieckmann promotes in the video I shared in the OP (about the 1:05 mark).



    Someone needs to get these guys together. I actually don't think they're as far apart as it seems at first. They both exaggerate the technique they're not promoting to a massive extent. Phil is displaying a total flip move when he describes the opposite of his move and that's not what JS is describing.




    The wrist action which Phil uses in demonstrating the "wrong way" is entirely different from the JS method. Also, he does not let the arm and body move. Does not make much sense.
  • TheCityGameTheCityGame Traj like Minaj Members Posts: 15,377 ✭✭
    Golfbeat wrote:



    Phil's got a new video up on instagram and seems to be addressing people who have argued with him about alternate techniques. He basically titles the video, "validating my position there is only one way to chip". its a two-parter. https://www.instagra.../p/BsmfBRhA7id/



    To bring it back to the JS-method vs his method, he literally says that if the club is traveling faster than the arms, it's very hard to control speed.



    "Club travelling faster than the arms" is something Sieckmann promotes in the video I shared in the OP (about the 1:05 mark).



    Someone needs to get these guys together. I actually don't think they're as far apart as it seems at first. They both exaggerate the technique they're not promoting to a massive extent. Phil is displaying a total flip move when he describes the opposite of his move and that's not what JS is describing.




    The wrist action which Phil uses in demonstrating the "wrong way" is entirely different from the JS method. Also, he does not let the arm and body move. Does not make much sense.
    true, he is over-exaggerating the motion (as I pointed out). But he unequivocally states that the club shouldn't move faster than the hands and Sieckmann unequivocally states the opposite.
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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,677 ✭✭
    I play in Florida with dormant Bermuda and I chip a whole lot better better with JS's method than with Phil's. Also, with JS you use only one method. Very hard to use Phil's method if you have to get it in the air and land softly. This last shot is needed a lot on my course with super fast greens usually sloping away from you.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,767 ✭✭
    edited Jan 14, 2019 12:09pm #76


    Phil's got a new video up on instagram and seems to be addressing people who have argued with him about alternate techniques. He basically titles the video, "validating my position there is only one way to chip". its a two-parter.




    To bring it back to the JS-method vs his method, he literally says that if the club is traveling faster than the arms, it's very hard to control speed.



    "Club travelling faster than the arms" is something Sieckmann promotes in the video I shared in the OP (about the 1:05 mark).



    Someone needs to get these guys together. I actually don't think they're as far apart as it seems at first. They both exaggerate the technique they're not promoting to a massive extent. Phil is displaying a total flip move when he describes the opposite of his move and that's not what JS is describing.




    I’m sorry. But Phil is correct.



    I’ve always played shots this way. Well before I knew what Phil did. Seems to me that a couple skulllers across the green would get people think “ what makes the leading edge do this “? And adjust accordingly.we don’t teach a flip for any other shot. Why would we want one for a chip ?
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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members Posts: 1,677 ✭✭



    Phil's got a new video up on instagram and seems to be addressing people who have argued with him about alternate techniques. He basically titles the video, "validating my position there is only one way to chip". its a two-parter. https://www.instagra.../p/BsmfBRhA7id/



    To bring it back to the JS-method vs his method, he literally says that if the club is traveling faster than the arms, it's very hard to control speed.



    "Club travelling faster than the arms" is something Sieckmann promotes in the video I shared in the OP (about the 1:05 mark).



    Someone needs to get these guys together. I actually don't think they're as far apart as it seems at first. They both exaggerate the technique they're not promoting to a massive extent. Phil is displaying a total flip move when he describes the opposite of his move and that's not what JS is describing.




    I'm sorry. But Phil is correct.



    I've always played shots this way. Well before I knew what Phil did. Seems to me that a couple skulllers across the green would get people think " what makes the leading edge do this "? And adjust accordingly.




    Phil is probably correct for Phil. I understand that the vast majority of tour players use the JS method.
  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    Golfbeat wrote:



    Phil's got a new video up on instagram and seems to be addressing people who have argued with him about alternate techniques. He basically titles the video, "validating my position there is only one way to chip". its a two-parter. [url="




    To bring it back to the JS-method vs his method, he literally says that if the club is traveling faster than the arms, it's very hard to control speed.



    "Club travelling faster than the arms" is something Sieckmann promotes in the video I shared in the OP (about the 1:05 mark).



    Someone needs to get these guys together. I actually don't think they're as far apart as it seems at first. They both exaggerate the technique they're not promoting to a massive extent. Phil is displaying a total flip move when he describes the opposite of his move and that's not what JS is describing.




    The wrist action which Phil uses in demonstrating the "wrong way" is entirely different from the JS method. Also, he does not let the arm and body move. Does not make much sense.
    true, he is over-exaggerating the motion (as I pointed out). But he unequivocally states that the club shouldn't move faster than the hands and Sieckmann unequivocally states the opposite.




    If you actually spend some time with Sigman, he's very good at acknowledging that Phil's method works.



    His is just a different one that he believes works a bit better and is more flexible and versatile.



    The guy knows his stuff. As does Phil, obviously.



    Tom Pernice's short game (Sieckman method) is absolutely otherworldly. To be able to win as much money as Tom did without anywhere near Phil's physical gifts, means the guy had to have a strong mind, a great work ethic, and an amazing short game. He had all of those.



    But his short game, if you played any golf with him, would absolutely blow you away.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,732 ClubWRX
    glk wrote:
    Since Day's been mentioned thought looking at his wedge swing versus full swing would be interesting.



    On the wedge, he is doing a cast/chop. Shallowing via inplane movement, right arm is pretty straight at impact, chest remains high, things move forward pretty much in synch, and upon release his arms continue the "chop" movement to the left, low point is at the ball not in front. He pretty much keeps the club in front of him the entire time. I watched Shauffele on Sunday and he put on a pitching clinic like this too. Day's not unique if you watch the best short game folks they all do pretty much the same thing.

    [media=]



    On the full swing, he shallows in transition, lowers his body, has the right arm bent at impact, low point in front of ball, lower body clearly leads, upon release his arms extend in front of his body while complete his rotation.



    [media=]



    In short, the wedge game be it a 15 yard pitch, 60, or 100 yards is a different animal than the full swing. Different goals so different mechanics.




    I would like to see Day on some shorter pitch shots, like where he is flying it 15 or 20 yards And letting it release a bit.
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  • skralyskraly ClubWRX Posts: 1,549 ClubWRX



    Phil's got a new video up on instagram and seems to be addressing people who have argued with him about alternate techniques. He basically titles the video, "validating my position there is only one way to chip". its a two-parter.




    To bring it back to the JS-method vs his method, he literally says that if the club is traveling faster than the arms, it's very hard to control speed.



    "Club travelling faster than the arms" is something Sieckmann promotes in the video I shared in the OP (about the 1:05 mark).



    Someone needs to get these guys together. I actually don't think they're as far apart as it seems at first. They both exaggerate the technique they're not promoting to a massive extent. Phil is displaying a total flip move when he describes the opposite of his move and that's not what JS is describing.




    I’m sorry. But Phil is correct.



    I’ve always played shots this way. Well before I knew what Phil did. Seems to me that a couple skulllers across the green would get people think “ what makes the leading edge do this “? And adjust accordingly.we don’t teach a flip for any other shot. Why would we want one for a chip ?


    It’s not a flip as long as you keep the trail arm moving. If you stall the trail arm at impact then, yes, it’s a flip. But no one advocates that. Phil’s method can work very well. But it has a small margin for error. With the other method, which I use, I can literally strike the ground 2 inches from the ball and still get an acceptable result. Not as good as a perfect strike, but still very playable.

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