Driver COR, or CT

[Jc0]

If you were to give a faster swing speed a face that gives too much, IE..over CT.257, they were have a face that gives too much. meaning the ball is staying on the face longer. So you lose any pop. The face just gives more.

 

...

 

So the best a manufacturer can do is find to middle grounds. One for slower speeds with hitter faces or close to over CT as possible. .

And one for faster speeds with further away as far as allowed but still staying close to the CT limit.

 

Sorry - that's not how it works. All swing speeds will benefit from a higher COR/CT. Different speeds do not have different 'needs' for the CT value to optimize their ball speed.

 

First, the club face doesn't add any 'pop'. You have to look at CT or COR as being about how much energy is lost in the impact not how much is added. At impact both the face and the ball deform as energy is transferred between the two. Kinetic to potential energy and back to kinetic. Energy is lost because neither the ball or the face are perfectly elastic so some energy is lost because of those deformations. And the amount of energy lost is going to be proportional to how much deformation occurs in each combined with the material properties of what is deforming.

 

Now for any given equal impact (i.e. identical club head speed and impact) we see differences in COR because of how much the face deforms compared to how much the ball deforms. To put it simply, the total potential energy in all the deformation generally will stay the same. So If the face is stiffer and deforms less, that means the ball will deform more. Or if the face deforms more, the ball will deform less. So the issue and end result comes down to which material has better elastic properties and looses less energy during the deformation. And the answer is the Titanium in the face has much better elastic properties than the polymers of the ball.

 

So it comes down to that the more the face deforms, the less the ball deforms, and the less energy is lost in the collision and the higher the COR (or CT) will be. And that applies equally for ANY club head speed.

 

Yes true to the coming down to what titanium is being used, also the hardness of it and thickness of the face. That all is a big part of achieving higher ball speeds.

 

BUT, I can sit there and give a 110 swing speed a .270 CT head and he will lose speed. But I can give that same head to a 80 swing speed and he will hit the holy white off the ball and get his highest numbers.

I have seen it hundreds of times and made my goal to find one where it did not work for them.

 

You simply can not give any PGA PRO like Woodland speed and power and impact a .270 head and say he will achieve his highest speeds ever.

If that were the case companies would be making their heads at .240 and having he pros hit them in practice rounds to get the number up and migration up so they could cut corners and driving greens all day long.

 

Remember that for a club to be conforming via USGA rules, as long as the head submitted is tested as is before hit, and passes, it will be legal for use no matter it going past that .257 after being used.

 

huh? as we have discussed in this thread it's literally like a couple yards difference between " super hot " heads and regular ones. 2 yards isn't the difference between cutting a corner or driving a green.

 

I still haven't heard any reasonable explanation for why someone who hits it long wouldn't benefit from a hot head just like a slow joe would

 

There is no reason. A driver face deflects so fast that swing speed is a non-issue. A golf ball compresses far more. To soft a ball can have the loose trampoline effect, not the driver face. The only downside for high swing speed is the face is more brittle. There use to be reinforced clubs made for professional long drivers because they would cave the face of the driver in. Also to the .240 item, the face of a club will catastrophically fail before it gets too hot. Carbon fiber can keep stretching and get more pop which is why softball has rules on length of use for carbon fiber bats, but not metal.

[Golfrnut]

If you were to give a faster swing speed a face that gives too much, IE..over CT.257, they were have a face that gives too much. meaning the ball is staying on the face longer. So you lose any pop. The face just gives more.

 

...

 

So the best a manufacturer can do is find to middle grounds. One for slower speeds with hitter faces or close to over CT as possible. .

And one for faster speeds with further away as far as allowed but still staying close to the CT limit.

 

Sorry - that's not how it works. All swing speeds will benefit from a higher COR/CT. Different speeds do not have different 'needs' for the CT value to optimize their ball speed.

 

First, the club face doesn't add any 'pop'. You have to look at CT or COR as being about how much energy is lost in the impact not how much is added. At impact both the face and the ball deform as energy is transferred between the two. Kinetic to potential energy and back to kinetic. Energy is lost because neither the ball or the face are perfectly elastic so some energy is lost because of those deformations. And the amount of energy lost is going to be proportional to how much deformation occurs in each combined with the material properties of what is deforming.

 

Now for any given equal impact (i.e. identical club head speed and impact) we see differences in COR because of how much the face deforms compared to how much the ball deforms. To put it simply, the total potential energy in all the deformation generally will stay the same. So If the face is stiffer and deforms less, that means the ball will deform more. Or if the face deforms more, the ball will deform less. So the issue and end result comes down to which material has better elastic properties and looses less energy during the deformation. And the answer is the Titanium in the face has much better elastic properties than the polymers of the ball.

 

So it comes down to that the more the face deforms, the less the ball deforms, and the less energy is lost in the collision and the higher the COR (or CT) will be. And that applies equally for ANY club head speed.

 

Yes true to the coming down to what titanium is being used, also the hardness of it and thickness of the face. That all is a big part of achieving higher ball speeds.

 

BUT, I can sit there and give a 110 swing speed a .270 CT head and he will lose speed. But I can give that same head to a 80 swing speed and he will hit the holy white off the ball and get his highest numbers.

I have seen it hundreds of times and made my goal to find one where it did not work for them.

 

You simply can not give any PGA PRO like Woodland speed and power and impact a .270 head and say he will achieve his highest speeds ever.

If that were the case companies would be making their heads at .240 and having he pros hit them in practice rounds to get the number up and migration up so they could cut corners and driving greens all day long.

 

Remember that for a club to be conforming via USGA rules, as long as the head submitted is tested as is before hit, and passes, it will be legal for use no matter it going past that .257 after being used.

 

 

Go back and reread what Stuart posted....again. You are way out in right field right now....all by yourself...alone and lost.

[VinceRKG]

If you were to give a faster swing speed a face that gives too much, IE..over CT.257, they were have a face that gives too much. meaning the ball is staying on the face longer. So you lose any pop. The face just gives more.

 

...

 

So the best a manufacturer can do is find to middle grounds. One for slower speeds with hitter faces or close to over CT as possible. .

And one for faster speeds with further away as far as allowed but still staying close to the CT limit.

 

Sorry - that's not how it works. All swing speeds will benefit from a higher COR/CT. Different speeds do not have different 'needs' for the CT value to optimize their ball speed.

 

First, the club face doesn't add any 'pop'. You have to look at CT or COR as being about how much energy is lost in the impact not how much is added. At impact both the face and the ball deform as energy is transferred between the two. Kinetic to potential energy and back to kinetic. Energy is lost because neither the ball or the face are perfectly elastic so some energy is lost because of those deformations. And the amount of energy lost is going to be proportional to how much deformation occurs in each combined with the material properties of what is deforming.

 

Now for any given equal impact (i.e. identical club head speed and impact) we see differences in COR because of how much the face deforms compared to how much the ball deforms. To put it simply, the total potential energy in all the deformation generally will stay the same. So If the face is stiffer and deforms less, that means the ball will deform more. Or if the face deforms more, the ball will deform less. So the issue and end result comes down to which material has better elastic properties and looses less energy during the deformation. And the answer is the Titanium in the face has much better elastic properties than the polymers of the ball.

 

So it comes down to that the more the face deforms, the less the ball deforms, and the less energy is lost in the collision and the higher the COR (or CT) will be. And that applies equally for ANY club head speed.

 

Yes true to the coming down to what titanium is being used, also the hardness of it and thickness of the face. That all is a big part of achieving higher ball speeds.

 

BUT, I can sit there and give a 110 swing speed a .270 CT head and he will lose speed. But I can give that same head to a 80 swing speed and he will hit the holy white off the ball and get his highest numbers.

I have seen it hundreds of times and made my goal to find one where it did not work for them.

 

You simply can not give any PGA PRO like Woodland speed and power and impact a .270 head and say he will achieve his highest speeds ever.

If that were the case companies would be making their heads at .240 and having he pros hit them in practice rounds to get the number up and migration up so they could cut corners and driving greens all day long.

 

Remember that for a club to be conforming via USGA rules, as long as the head submitted is tested as is before hit, and passes, it will be legal for use no matter it going past that .257 after being used.

 

huh? as we have discussed in this thread it's literally like a couple yards difference between " super hot " heads and regular ones. 2 yards isn't the difference between cutting a corner or driving a green.

 

I still haven't heard any reasonable explanation for why someone who hits it long wouldn't benefit from a hot head just like a slow joe would

 

There is no reason. A driver face deflects so fast that swing speed is a non-issue. A golf ball compresses far more. To soft a ball can have the loose trampoline effect, not the driver face. The only downside for high swing speed is the face is more brittle. There use to be reinforced clubs made for professional long drivers because they would cave the face of the driver in. Also to the .240 item, the face of a club will catastrophically fail before it gets too hot. Carbon fiber can keep stretching and get more pop which is why softball has rules on length of use for carbon fiber bats, but not metal.

 

Correct is does deflect fast, but the CT number and swing speed is still an issue. I have personally seen and been apart of testing some High CT heads and Low CT heads with different swing speeds on course and monitors. There is a HUGE difference from low to high numbered heads. Why do you think companies started putting and testing the CT of each face they gave to tour players? I am not just making stuff up to make it up. Golf balls yes are key to get down for each hitter and their impact. I control shots better with softer compression balls, and when I am tight in back I pull out a higher CT head and that combo goes yard.

 

Every component plays a big role with one another at achieving your longest hits. I will see if I can get some heads together and do a test with a monitor. I do not see why people are thinking too hard on this.

 

And yes Long Drive heads did have thicker faces and that was the only difference from "golfer" heads to "long driver" heads. Once CT was looked into that was thrown out the window as you cant have a thick face and a high as possible CT head. Thats all it came down to, was how close you can get away with a higher number before it would crack on you.

 

Anyway, I will just see what you have to say and how wrong I am. Were all just guys who golf anyway right? None of us ever designed anything either.

[Stuart_G]

Were all just guys who golf anyway right? None of us ever designed anything either.

 

Not true. (going back to post #14 http://www.golfwrx.c.../#entry18460450)

and his bio http://wishongolf.co...-is-tom-wishon/

[VinceRKG]

LOL I know I saw his response and know who he is. I was meaning the guys I was replying to and who were replying to me sorry for not making clear.

 

I am not near his level either, but I have been behind 4 launches and design of drivers the past 14 years. So I am speaking on my past experiences and my roles that allowed me to be hands on with every aspect of a club head. From start to finish and every piece in between.

 

I am also stubborn and sometimes just like to keep pecking at something. This is why I love this forum! Sorry if I annoyed you guys haha

[pinhigh27]

 

Correct is does deflect fast, but the CT number and swing speed is still an issue. I have personally seen and been apart of testing some High CT heads and Low CT heads with different swing speeds on course and monitors. There is a HUGE difference from low to high numbered heads. Why do you think companies started putting and testing the CT of each face they gave to tour players? I am not just making stuff up to make it up. Golf balls yes are key to get down for each hitter and their impact. I control shots better with softer compression balls, and when I am tight in back I pull out a higher CT head and that combo goes yard.

 

Every component plays a big role with one another at achieving your longest hits. I will see if I can get some heads together and do a test with a monitor. I do not see why people are thinking too hard on this.

 

And yes Long Drive heads did have thicker faces and that was the only difference from "golfer" heads to "long driver" heads. Once CT was looked into that was thrown out the window as you cant have a thick face and a high as possible CT head. Thats all it came down to, was how close you can get away with a higher number before it would crack on you.

 

Anyway, I will just see what you have to say and how wrong I am. Were all just guys who golf anyway right? None of us ever designed anything either.

 

huge difference? as in like 3 yards?