Jimmy Ballard

[DonRSD]

Should the head be behind, on top or in front of the ball at impact?

[torbill]

Should the head be behind, on top or in front of the ball at impact?

 

I don’t want to think about the head. How the head moves is an effect. I want to think about causes. The cause that I want to think about is what moves the spine/core/placket. I want to address the ball with my spine perpendicular to the ground when you look at me from in front of me - not tipped toward or away from the target. I want my backswing to carry my spine - in this same attitude as at address - through to the end of the backswing. I want my downswing to carry my spine - in this same attitude - through impact. The ultimate cause of my spine movement a hard weight shift to my back leg and hard shift to my front leg as I control the attitude of my spine. If I have done this right my finish will be such that I am directly facing the target, my spine is square to the ground in all directions, my shoulders are level, and my elbows are pointed at the ground and close together. The head simply goes with the spine. Rocco does this wel, check his videos. Think about your spine as it moves through the swing and I’ll bet that you will be happy with the result.

[DonRSD]

Should the head be behind, on top or in front of the ball at impact?

 

I don’t want to think about the head. How the head moves is an effect. I want to think about causes. The cause that I want to think about is what moves the spine/core/placket. I want to address the ball with my spine perpendicular to the ground when you look at me from in front of me - not tipped toward or away from the target. I want my backswing to carry my spine - in this same attitude as at address - through to the end of the backswing. I want my downswing to carry my spine - in this same attitude - through impact. The ultimate cause of my spine movement a hard weight shift to my back leg and hard shift to my front leg as I control the attitude of my spine. If I have done this right my finish will be such that I am directly facing the target, my spine is square to the ground in all directions, my shoulders are level, and my elbows are pointed at the ground and close together. The head simply goes with the spine. Rocco does this wel, check his videos. Think about your spine as it moves through the swing and I’ll bet that you will be happy with the result.

 

You make sense, but I just wanted to know of with the JB swing should the head be "behind the ball" like on a regular swing?

 

I ask because I have been focusing on my weight going forward starting with the transition and the harder I push off the right foot.....the more ahead of the ball my upper body goes (lower body gets going but upper body is going too). If my upper body is going forward, I get my head ahead of the ball and don't hit good.

[torbill]

I see.

 

Without watching you I am speculating, but I would say that you are sliding your hips straight at the target. Probably if we looked at a video we would see that your hips aren’t turning at all on the downswing, at least not before you hit the ball. If your spine is tipping back, away from the target, which I think it is NOT, you would be rocking your hips and anything could happen as far as ball flight. Rather, I think that you are not tipping your spine back, but are just sliding through the hitting zone with your hips, which causes your head to move ahead of the ball. If this is true, I am guessing that you are consistently hitting weak fades because the club face is open at impact and you haven’t generated a lot of power.

 

The lower body squares the clubface - no manipulation of hands/arms, no exceptions to this. As the downswing starts the hips shift forward and rotate counterclockwise - probably yours aren’t doing the rotation part.

 

One way to get a feel for the right thing is to do the Ballard backhand thing. He does this by backhanding the back of a golf cart seat. Study this video closely, at the 15 minute mark.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEqXuiHLVE

 

He is illustrating a different problem from yours - tipping the spine away from the target on the downswing by holding the head back, which causes the rocking of the hips - but the remedy is the same. See how his hips shift forward and rotate at the same time? This compound motion is what squares the clubface. Try this at home with any chair, in slow motion so that you don’t hurt your hand. Make your lower body square the back of your hand to the imagined target. Feel the motion of your hips, and compare the feeling with your normal swing. I think that you will feel a difference.

 

Now let’s go back further in your swing. Again speculating, I am guessing that on the backswing your hips are sliding back with little or no rotation. In order to load your right side your hips have to shift back AND rotate, some. Look at Ballard as he repeatedly hits the seat. As he loads into his right side his hips are naturally shifting and turning, in an arc if you will.

 

If you get the hip motion right, and don’t let your spine tip away from the target as you start forward, you won’t have to think about what your head is doing. As my club approaches impact I want my spine/placket right back where it was at address, the result of my hips shifting forward and rotating.

 

[97speedster]

Removed

[DonRSD]

I see.

 

Without watching you I am speculating, but I would say that you are sliding your hips straight at the target. Probably if we looked at a video we would see that your hips aren’t turning at all on the downswing, at least not before you hit the ball. If your spine is tipping back, away from the target, which I think it is NOT, you would be rocking your hips and anything could happen as far as ball flight. Rather, I think that you are not tipping your spine back, but are just sliding through the hitting zone with your hips, which causes your head to move ahead of the ball. If this is true, I am guessing that you are consistently hitting weak fades because the club face is open at impact and you haven’t generated a lot of power.

 

The lower body squares the clubface - no manipulation of hands/arms, no exceptions to this. As the downswing starts the hips shift forward and rotate counterclockwise - probably yours aren’t doing the rotation part.

 

One way to get a feel for the right thing is to do the Ballard backhand thing. He does this by backhanding the back of a golf cart seat. Study this video closely, at the 15 minute mark.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEqXuiHLVE

 

He is illustrating a different problem from yours - tipping the spine away from the target on the downswing by holding the head back, which causes the rocking of the hips - but the remedy is the same. See how his hips shift forward and rotate at the same time? This compound motion is what squares the clubface. Try this at home with any chair, in slow motion so that you don’t hurt your hand. Make your lower body square the back of your hand to the imagined target. Feel the motion of your hips, and compare the feeling with your normal swing. I think that you will feel a difference.

 

Now let’s go back further in your swing. Again speculating, I am guessing that on the backswing your hips are sliding back with little or no rotation. In order to load your right side your hips have to shift back AND rotate, some. Look at Ballard as he repeatedly hits the seat. As he loads into his right side his hips are naturally shifting and turning, in an arc if you will.

 

If you get the hip motion right, and don’t let your spine tip away from the target as you start forward, you won’t have to think about what your head is doing. As my club approaches impact I want my spine/placket right back where it was at address, the result of my hips shifting forward and rotating.

 

Your speculations are right on point! I think I am a little confused on the lower body and want to explain what I do and how your way is different (and correct)

 

I am so focused on NOT rotating my hips on the backswing. My thoughts are get my left shoulder behind the ball (while NOT rotating the hips in the backswing) and then explode forward from my loaded right foot / leg (lower body leading). Funny thing is that sometimes when I feel the load in the inside of my right leg and my right a**cheek.....the downswing is effortless and the ball flight is fantastic. When I think about NOT rotating my hips back, getting behind the ball and then push forward.....I almost feel like I am lunging at the ball with no power on the downswing.

My guess is I got caught up in a 6-8" load into the into side and forgot to rotate the hips along with it?

 

As for the hip rotation on the downswing, when they open up I tend to slice the ball right with a very open club face......how can this be fixed while opening the hips on the downswing? Should I think of my upper body "covering the ball while opening the hips"? I guess I just need a thought so I can "see" the change and then implement it.

 

As for the backswing....you are correct. I feel as if I am sliding going back because (again) I am worried about NOT rotating the hips going back. Goes to the point of JB mentoring to keep the right foot pointed inside a little as to restrict hip rotation going back.

 

Your detailed explanation above hit the nail on the head as to what I am doing wring with the swing. This is what I like about the JB swing....the faults may come, but they are easily diagnosed because the swing has very few moving parts. Obviously if 1 part is wrong the rest can be messed up....but finding the root cause is simple.

 

Thank you for taking the time to help and your very detailed response :)

[DonRSD]

Should the head be behind, on top or in front of the ball at impact?

 

Thinking about the head is not not the way to go, you are better off thinking about the golf swing with the head cut off the body.... if you get your head in front of the ball at impact then you aren't going to be able release the club and you will block/wipe it to the right all day long. Vice versa, if you try to keep the head behind the ball or down at impact then you are going to hang back, get underneath it, flip it with your hands and never be able to release your eyes correctly to the target.

 

The answer to your question is two fold, the left ear should touch a straight line drawn up vertically from the ball, but the way to do this is not by thinking about or working on the head, it's more cause and effect from other correct motions in the swing. I don't ever think about my head, I might sometimes think about releasing my eyes to the target as fast as I can in the downswing, but I never think about the head, instead I think about getting the big muscles of the entire body working correctly and the head will take care of itself through a proper coil and release.

 

This is where I am at impact and after impact, but use this as a reference and checkpoint without trying to do it by thinking about the head.

 

Very eye opening screenshots!

 

Ball position.....do you put the ball off the left ear / logo on your shirt and simply adjust your right root back/forward per the length of the club?

Connection.....do you connect the left arm to the chest or connect BOTH arms to the chest? Stenson also has a thought of "hitting the ball with his right shoulder at impact", is this a good thought to run with?

[Ayersjj]

Should the head be behind, on top or in front of the ball at impact?

 

Ontop

[Ayersjj]

Should the head be behind, on top or in front of the ball at impact?

 

Thinking about the head is not not the way to go, you are better off thinking about the golf swing with the head cut off the body.... if you get your head in front of the ball at impact then you aren't going to be able release the club and you will block/wipe it to the right all day long. Vice versa, if you try to keep the head behind the ball or down at impact then you are going to hang back, get underneath it, flip it with your hands and never be able to release your eyes correctly to the target.

 

The answer to your question is two fold, the left ear should touch a straight line drawn up vertically from the ball, but the way to do this is not by thinking about or working on the head, it's more cause and effect from other correct motions in the swing. I don't ever think about my head, I might sometimes think about releasing my eyes to the target as fast as I can in the downswing, but I never think about the head, instead I think about getting the big muscles of the entire body working correctly and the head will take care of itself through a proper coil and release.

 

This is where I am at impact and after impact, but use this as a reference and checkpoint without trying to do it by thinking about the head.

 

Very eye opening screenshots!

 

Ball position.....do you put the ball off the left ear / logo on your shirt and simply adjust your right root back/forward per the length of the club?

Connection.....do you connect the left arm to the chest or connect BOTH arms to the chest? Stenson also has a thought of "hitting the ball with his right shoulder at impact", is this a good thought to run with?

 

Club in center

[97speedster]

Removed

[DonRSD]

Poking around online, came across a guy Paul Wilson....wanted to ask does he have a Jimmy Ballard swing or something completely different?

 

Wish I could find more people with a JB swing actually swinging like JB says. Lots of instruction online, but no full swings anywhere.

[torbill]

I see.

 

Without watching you I am speculating, but I would say that you are sliding your hips straight at the target. Probably if we looked at a video we would see that your hips aren’t turning at all on the downswing, at least not before you hit the ball. If your spine is tipping back, away from the target, which I think it is NOT, you would be rocking your hips and anything could happen as far as ball flight. Rather, I think that you are not tipping your spine back, but are just sliding through the hitting zone with your hips, which causes your head to move ahead of the ball. If this is true, I am guessing that you are consistently hitting weak fades because the club face is open at impact and you haven’t generated a lot of power.

 

The lower body squares the clubface - no manipulation of hands/arms, no exceptions to this. As the downswing starts the hips shift forward and rotate counterclockwise - probably yours aren’t doing the rotation part.

 

One way to get a feel for the right thing is to do the Ballard backhand thing. He does this by backhanding the back of a golf cart seat. Study this video closely, at the 15 minute mark.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEqXuiHLVE

 

He is illustrating a different problem from yours - tipping the spine away from the target on the downswing by holding the head back, which causes the rocking of the hips - but the remedy is the same. See how his hips shift forward and rotate at the same time? This compound motion is what squares the clubface. Try this at home with any chair, in slow motion so that you don’t hurt your hand. Make your lower body square the back of your hand to the imagined target. Feel the motion of your hips, and compare the feeling with your normal swing. I think that you will feel a difference.

 

Now let’s go back further in your swing. Again speculating, I am guessing that on the backswing your hips are sliding back with little or no rotation. In order to load your right side your hips have to shift back AND rotate, some. Look at Ballard as he repeatedly hits the seat. As he loads into his right side his hips are naturally shifting and turning, in an arc if you will.

 

If you get the hip motion right, and don’t let your spine tip away from the target as you start forward, you won’t have to think about what your head is doing. As my club approaches impact I want my spine/placket right back where it was at address, the result of my hips shifting forward and rotating.

 

Your speculations are right on point! I think I am a little confused on the lower body and want to explain what I do and how your way is different (and correct)

 

I am so focused on NOT rotating my hips on the backswing. My thoughts are get my left shoulder behind the ball (while NOT rotating the hips in the backswing) and then explode forward from my loaded right foot / leg (lower body leading). Funny thing is that sometimes when I feel the load in the inside of my right leg and my right a**cheek.....the downswing is effortless and the ball flight is fantastic. When I think about NOT rotating my hips back, getting behind the ball and then push forward.....I almost feel like I am lunging at the ball with no power on the downswing.

My guess is I got caught up in a 6-8" load into the into side and forgot to rotate the hips along with it?

 

As for the hip rotation on the downswing, when they open up I tend to slice the ball right with a very open club face......how can this be fixed while opening the hips on the downswing? Should I think of my upper body "covering the ball while opening the hips"? I guess I just need a thought so I can "see" the change and then implement it.

 

As for the backswing....you are correct. I feel as if I am sliding going back because (again) I am worried about NOT rotating the hips going back. Goes to the point of JB mentoring to keep the right foot pointed inside a little as to restrict hip rotation going back.

 

Your detailed explanation above hit the nail on the head as to what I am doing wring with the swing. This is what I like about the JB swing....the faults may come, but they are easily diagnosed because the swing has very few moving parts. Obviously if 1 part is wrong the rest can be messed up....but finding the root cause is simple.

 

Thank you for taking the time to help and your very detailed response :)

 

You know, if the split hands drill is the favorite drill of Strange, my favorite drill is the backhand of the golf cart seat drill. As Ballard says we all need to do the same thing, but we feel it differently. For me, the backhand feeling works. I do it with or without a club. I walk around the house doing it, without a club. I find that it does everything that Ballard wants. Going back I automatically bury my lead elbow into my side, shift my weight back, rotate my hips (but not over-rotate), and get the shaft going up (because the lead elbow is staying firmly connected). Going forward I just think about the back of my hand getting square to the target at impact and this gets my lower body moving forward properly, with my back hip/leg staying high, and this action causes a strong acceleration of the clubface through the hitting area. My ingrained tendancy from years of trying to do the wrong thing is to hang back, with my back hip going low and my lead shoulder going high. You cannot squarely backhand something with a low back hip and a high lead shoulder. So, for me, this move brings about the proper movements of the Ballard method and it creates plenty of power. I hit some measured 260+ yard drives right down the middle yesterday on normal (not fast) fairway conditions, and that ain’t half bad for a 74 year old, and I swear that for me the backhand drill more than any other is the one that shows me how to move the club properly and with power.

[bluedot]

Very eye opening screenshots!

 

Ball position.....do you put the ball off the left ear / logo on your shirt and simply adjust your right root back/forward per the length of the club?

Connection.....do you connect the left arm to the chest or connect BOTH arms to the chest? Stenson also has a thought of "hitting the ball with his right shoulder at impact", is this a good thought to run with?

 

Jimmy wants the ball position more off the left heel, but I move mine around between the left heel with a driver to just ahead of center for a wedge.... that just works better for me and where my wedge game is best.

 

I connect my left arm, but not my right.... connecting my right gets me to feel stuck. I like my right arm to feel free, but not runaway from my body. A good way to get the feel for this for me is to make swings with a Callaway Connect on my left arm while wearing The Golf Swing Shirt.... it gets me connected without feeling over connected in my left arm and the Golf Swing Shirt helps me get the right elbow pointed down without feeling trapped. JB would disagree, but I do think you can get too connected and when I feel like I'm too connected my swing gets steep and I feel like I'm going to hit it fat.

 

Nobody knows my game and swing better than I do, I practice hard and I'm a real good ball striker, so I might not know what works best for others, but I do know what works best for me. These are things that take time, for me it's been 40 years, but over time you will too if you work hard enough at it. I like working with Jimmy because he gets me back on track faster than anyone and he's not a "try this and try that" teacher, but I'm probably only 85% Ballard and the rest is time tested tweaks that I know work for me.

 

I'm going to quibble about the term "connection" and the right arm, because I think the term means VERY different things for left vs. the right arm.

 

In the book, connection sort of refers to the idea of not breaking an electrical power circuit; there's even a drawing of that. With the left arm, that means keeping it "short" with the tricep "pinned" to the pec and all of that, but the connection isn't the arm touching the torso per se; it's the preservation of a powerful, athletic position thru the swing.

 

Connection for the right arm is the same in terms of preserving the athleticism of the motion, but completely different in process. Connection for the right arm is having the arm and elbow work up and away from the body into a position similar to an infielder getting ready to throw a baseball. (JB writes about the issue of the "flying elbow" in the section where he talks about right arm connection, I believe.) You "unplug" the right arm when you keep it pinned to the body; more or less the exact opposite of the left arm. Think of a batter in a ready position; that would be both arms connected.

 

Like you, if I keep my right are more or less pinned, I get way under the plane and stuck and my swing becomes a matter of timing, which is the opposite of what Ballard is all about. The big key FOR ME is that feeling of pressure and tension on the instep of my right foot, and then NOT moving off the ball on the takeaway, which is generic to ANY method of swinging the club. If I do those two things, it frees my arms to work the way JB wants them to work, and the swing just becomes the easiest, most natural and athletic thing in the world. If I don't, then I've got a mess, and it starts with NOT getting to that throwing position with my right arm, which is disconnection.

[gsea33]

I agree pressure and tension on the instep is key for me also. Few years ago I was playing with a gentleman from Texas. An older gentleman and he was good. Didn't keep track but shot par or real close from 6,700 yds. Anyway the one piece of advice he gave me was to feel like you're covering the ball on the down swing with the right arm. If I'm playing well with the JB "method" that is exactly the feeling I get. IT may not b what JB is preaching but sounds like what is being said in the above post.

[dodger]

I posted some time ago about how the connection theory of JB was misconstrued by me to connect the right arm in the backswing. It resulted in way to flat a move. What I see is connection at the right arm at impact, not in the backswing.

[97speedster]

Removed

[gsea33]

Poking around online, came across a guy Paul Wilson....wanted to ask does he have a Jimmy Ballard swing or something completely different?

 

Wish I could find more people with a JB swing actually swinging like JB says. Lots of instruction online, but no full swings anywhere.

Imo Henrik Stenson does the perfect Ballard swing with no sway. Watch on youtube. Annika used it too.

[Ayersjj]

I agree pressure and tension on the instep is key for me also. Few years ago I was playing with a gentleman from Texas. An older gentleman and he was good. Didn't keep track but shot par or real close from 6,700 yds. Anyway the one piece of advice he gave me was to feel like you're covering the ball on the down swing with the right arm. If I'm playing well with the JB "method" that is exactly the feeling I get. IT may not b what JB is preaching but sounds like what is being said in the above post.

 

You can only hit down if the right hip is up and the club is in a vertical position. I think many walk away from Ballard not bc of a sway but bc he doesnt want any rotation of the arms in the swing. Most players including professionals have lots of rotation and angles. It takes great timing to do so but thats 90 precent of the golfing world. Ballard students work the club up in front w ZERO angles. Goes against the golfing world.

[DonRSD]

Seems that with the left arm connected, the club CANT get around the body......it can only work upward in the backswing.

 

Now if I could only get some more yardage!

[Ayersjj]

Seems that with the left arm connected, the club CANT get around the body......it can only work upward in the backswing.

 

Now if I could only get some more yardage!

 

Hardy teaches left arm connection and goes sideways and rotates so its no guarantee that u will stay connected. I think the big misunderstanding in Ballards teaching is that u DONT swap forces. DJ is right, split grip helps feel the forces so u dont disconnect. One also needs to know how to swing up properly to avoid disconnection. Even Rocco thiught it was simple but hard to do. With the club basically vertical halfway back many see Ballard as a Furyk type swing without the shut look.

 

Ballard had an article in 1996 called the “Triangle Test” specifically talking about a perfect triangle w elbows at top. No Ballard students are holding any trays at the top only Leadbetter ruined many with that move.

 

The triangle test basically after halfway back go straight UP with rotation.

 

Thats when the Pros leave I think. Stenson Perry and a few ithers but most players plane off w angles.

[Ayersjj]

Correction

Triangle test is go straight up after 1/2 way bak without any angles

[97speedster]

Removed

[97speedster]

Removed

[Ayersjj]

Javier (Hogan Caddie) made it crystal clear ro commit to a triangle without angles at top. He mentioned that Hogan felt the swing was out of balance if the tie wasnt hanging down

[Ripper212]

Speedster - you mentioned using the Callaway Connect.Isn’t the main purpose of that to connect the right arm which I don’t believe JB recommends. Altho FWIW, connecting the right arm seems to worke best for me, esp in the short game.

[gsea33]

The Callaway connect advertises it's for "Helps groove proper swing path for wedges and short irons". Not the full swing so experience with the short game makes sense.

[Ripper212]

The Callaway connect advertises it's for "Helps groove proper swing path for wedges and short irons". Not the full swing so experience with the short game makes sense.

 

Agreed. Just trying to understand how much, if at all, right arm should be connected in backswing. JB and Speedster both say it’s not, which is why I was curious as to why Speedster uses it.

[DonRSD]

Seems that with the left arm connected, the club CANT get around the body......it can only work upward in the backswing.

 

Now if I could only get some more yardage!

 

 

Ballard had an article in 1996 called the "Triangle Test" specifically talking about a perfect triangle w elbows at top. No Ballard students are holding any trays at the top only Leadbetter ruined many with that move.

 

The triangle test basically after halfway back go straight UP with rotation.

 

Do you have a link for this article?

[Ayersjj]

I could post a pic here of article but I dont see the tab to post pictures?

[gsea33]

I could post a pic here of article but I dont see the tab to post pictures?

Use the "more reply options" tab. Then it will b self explanatory for posting a pic