I’m calling BS on 10+ yard gains

[gibbyfan]

There was a graphic on Sunday or Monday's Golf Central where it shows that in the last 4 years that Phil has increased his distance by 20 yards. Phil is a known player that loves to tinker and look for a slight edge. I am also certain that Phil goes through a pretty extensive fitting each year. There are gains to be had.

[nsxguy]

Disagree....And there's pretty much zero question that i'm right at least in that this will not apply to everyone , or even almost everyone

 

If you carry the ball 280 for example, 10 yards is 3.5% of your total distance. That is really not that much. A low spin head versus a normal head, even with the same loft and shaft, you could see a 10yd difference for sure.

 

If you carry 250yds, we're talking 4% of your total

 

I do not believe that all driver heads are within 4% of each other for every possible swing type and swing speed. I'm very confident that if you gave most golfers the ability to test every driver on the market with the same loft and shaft, there'd be a 10yd variance between the longest and shortest if they can carry the ball anywhere close to 250 or longer

 

If your current driver is one that you were properly fit for and is <6-7 years old. Than no you probably wouldn't gain 10 however. But i would strongly disagree that all drivers are basically the same

 

Have to agree with Jeff. With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers. I don't always play the longest head I've hit. I play the one I can control.

 

Not to mention the fact that a true fitting isn't available to most people. Going to the big box and hitting 5 stock shafts isn't a fitting. Put it this way. If you haven't walked out of the facility with the very head and shaft in hand that you tested you haven't been actually fit into anything. I'm talking the test head.

 

You think the tour van guys make you a test driver , you test it on trackman and on course , love it then they order an " identical " one from the factory ? Nope. You hit that one. The one that worked. " fittings" are mostly a farce.

 

Jeff's incredibly large sweeping generalization of 10 yards at a minimum carry of 250 would no doubt be accurate.

 

According to Flightscope, at an uber high ball speed (180 MPH) launched at 14* the difference between 2800 RPM and 2200 RPM is 7 yards carry.

 

At lower SS the difference lessens. e.g. at 140 MPH the difference is 2 yards carry.

 

Further, although I'm not totally surprised you think "fittings are a farce", I disagree with the old "buy the demo head and shaft". Tolerances today are much better than they used to be for both the head AND the shafts.

 

Now most stores that I'm aware of will not SELL the demo.

 

And while a terrific player like yourself, say scratch or better, MAY notice a difference between the demo setup and the one he bought, it's not going to be so different with the purchased setup than the demo setup that he'd have to give the purchased one the boot. And with so many adjustments available nowadays he could probably tweak it and get it just right anyway.

 

And for the average player, the vast majority of them us will never notice a difference.

 

Tour Pros ? No worries. The manufacturer will give 'em whatever they want. ;)

 

Just not true. There's a reason why ping is The only oem that will sell you a certified loft head. The others are all over the map and don't want to offer the service to look for a loft.

 

And 800 rpm is the range? Ive seen much wider than that shaft to shaft and head to head of different models. If that was the window for high speed players it would be easy to find a head that worked.

 

I Stand by the statement. Tolerances are better than persimmon days but not nearly good enough to order blind and call it fitted.

 

Good example. Slant neck spider putters. I have a habit of looking at everyone I see. And 75% sit closed on their own. Rarely do they sit square. And almost never slightly open. Can they be bent. Sure. At cost of paint. But I'd never order one sight unseen.

 

And lastly. I'm not talking about big box demo heads. I'm talking a green grass fitter who will take the time to demo his stock of heads. I've done this more than once last year through several contacts and it's eye opening the difference you can see swapping the same shaft into a different head of the same brand and model. Be it loft , weight , or face angle combo it makes a difference.

 

Ever hear the story about DJ having cow when someone started to adjust the weights in his new m3 head ? How many you think he hit to find that one? By the reaction I'd say dozens. Ever pay attention to the tour issue Taylormade drivers and woods for sale ? All have spec stickers when new. The lie , actual loft , CT , and face angles are all over the map. Just picking a head blindly is akin to having a lob wedge that says 60 degrees but for some reason you hit it as long as your 56. Wouldn't you check the loft of the 56 and 60 and bend both to proper gap of need be ? Problem is you can't bend modern drivers and adjustable hosels don't truly work exactly like getting the proper spec head does. Say you fit for a 10 degree real loft and a 1 degree open face angle. They order one that comes in and is a 8 degree loft and has a 1 degree closed face angle. If you open the face with adjustment you're going down in loft. So if you hit the proper head Welll. How do you think you'll hit a head with 2-3 degrees less loft and a shut face ? I can answer that. Like poop.

 

Last things first.

 

I readily admitted that excellent players such as yourself might feel slight differences.

 

Now, WHAT is "not true" ?

 

And 800 rpm is WHAT range ? I gave you a rather small 600 rpm difference and pegged it via Flightscope as 7 yards. So I will repeat,,,,,, WHAT range ?

 

YOU said "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers". I merely pointed out that 600 rpm difference in a driver would be roughly 7 yards. e.g. 2800 rpm vs. say 2200 rpm. I can't see how you could possibly vary your driver spin rate on anything resembling a reasonably good strike much more than 600 rpms.

 

"Certified loft head". Seriously ? A 9* head is measured at, e.g. 9.6* and the average player is going to go nuts ? Especially when he can adjust the loft either way by (usually) at least 1-2* ?

 

And perhaps you missed "And for the average player, the vast majority of them us will never notice a difference"

 

Also "while a terrific player like yourself, say scratch or better, MAY notice a difference between the demo setup and the one he bought, it's not going to be so different with the purchased setup than the demo setup that he'd have to give the purchased one the boot. And with so many adjustments available nowadays he could probably tweak it and get it just right anyway."

 

:hi:

[bladehunter]

Sure. Use the “ joe hack “ can’t tell the difference excuse. Don’t you see. That just proves my point. That a real fitting is rare.

 

Sure. It can be argued that some degree of trial and error is better than nothing. But it just irks me to no end to hear people ask “ were you fitted “ when someone posts About driver issues etc. I want so badly to say “ yes. But were you “? 99 % who think they’ve been fitted have no clue what swingweight , length or tip trim is optimum for them. Callling what is known as a fitting today a “ fitting “ is like calling a McDonald’s fry cook a chef.

[dunn]

My point is this: most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance. If you are properly fit, you won’t gain 10+ yards going from one to another.

 

Convince me I’m wrong...

bit late to party, been this way for awhile now....5+ years easily

 

Fitting is a broad term....one day in a store hitting 20-30 shots in row which you dont do on a golf course....a one day fitting is a one day fitting....for a ball striker with grooved swing maybe it tells him something, to mere mortals it's a crapshoot unless they were so far off mark which shouldn't be case.....

 

Fitting over longer period of time with testing and actual play intermittingly is different story but who does that, lol.......

 

Most decent players are already in the ballpark or better.......you ain't gonna see anything unless your swing is better for a day. Week or whatever the period may be.....

 

Clubs are the most consistent part of the equation and humans are not.....well a few are but not many around here anyways to be worried bout it

[nsxguy]

Sure. Use the " joe hack " can't tell the difference excuse. Don't you see. That just proves my point. That a real fitting is rare.

 

Sure. It can be argued that some degree of trial and error is better than nothing. But it just irks me to no end to hear people ask " were you fitted " when someone posts About driver issues etc. I want so badly to say " yes. But were you "? 99 % who think they've been fitted have no clue what swingweight , length or tip trim is optimum for them. Callling what is known as a fitting today a " fitting " is like calling a McDonald's fry cook a chef.

 

Proves what point ? Sorry, never mind. You don't answer any questions anyway. You rail and rant and misquote things and then when asked about it you write this drivel.

 

Later ;)

[Danny Choo]

At the 2005 American Express Championship in the playoffs between Woods and Daly, Woods hit his drive 350 yds and Daly 365 yds. I buy equipment because the look is just more appealing but truth is manufacturers have done nothing innovative in years. It is all fluff nothing more. Players should be hitting drives 400 yards with all of the nonsense they be claiming. Flash face, twist face, speed channel , carbon crown and whatever they claim is all fluff

[bladehunter]

Sure. Use the " joe hack " can't tell the difference excuse. Don't you see. That just proves my point. That a real fitting is rare.

 

Sure. It can be argued that some degree of trial and error is better than nothing. But it just irks me to no end to hear people ask " were you fitted " when someone posts About driver issues etc. I want so badly to say " yes. But were you "? 99 % who think they've been fitted have no clue what swingweight , length or tip trim is optimum for them. Callling what is known as a fitting today a " fitting " is like calling a McDonald's fry cook a chef.

 

Proves what point ? Sorry, never mind. You don't answer any questions anyway. You rail and rant and misquote things and then when asked about it you write this drivel.

 

Later ;)

 

Lol. I say you do the same. A lot of repeats after I’ve answer a question. I answered the question on why loft face angle etc matters and you countered with basically “ nobody knows the difference “. So I said ok. Then how is it a fitting ? Proves my point that “ fittings” are only happening in name. Not in actual practice.

 

Try on this analogy. You go into a shoe store to buy new shoes. The clerk gets the samples out and the measuring device and he/she finds a right and left shoe that fits your foot. You look into the shoes and see a size listed as 7-9 . So that’s what you order. They come in and the right one gives your pinky toe a blister and the left one slides off your heel with every step. That’s exactly like most “ driver fittings “ go. Sometimes you get lucky and it works. But even if it does you can’t tell me what size shoe you wear. You can only say “ 7-9”. So next time you want to order a pair. You pull the hammer back and pull the trigger tigger and hope for the best. Again.

 

We just disagree. No need to have a cow.

[nsxguy]

Sure. Use the " joe hack " can't tell the difference excuse. Don't you see. That just proves my point. That a real fitting is rare.

 

Sure. It can be argued that some degree of trial and error is better than nothing. But it just irks me to no end to hear people ask " were you fitted " when someone posts About driver issues etc. I want so badly to say " yes. But were you "? 99 % who think they've been fitted have no clue what swingweight , length or tip trim is optimum for them. Callling what is known as a fitting today a " fitting " is like calling a McDonald's fry cook a chef.

 

Proves what point ? Sorry, never mind. You don't answer any questions anyway. You rail and rant and misquote things and then when asked about it you write this drivel.

 

Later ;)

 

Lol. I say you do the same. A lot of repeats after I've answer a question. I answered the question on why loft face angle etc matters and you countered with basically " nobody knows the difference ". So I said ok. Then how is it a fitting ? Proves my point that " fittings" are only happening in name. Not in actual practice.

 

Try on this analogy. You go into a shoe store to buy new shoes. The clerk gets the samples out and the measuring device and he/she finds a right and left shoe that fits your foot. You look into the shoes and see a size listed as 7-9 . So that's what you order. They come in and the right one gives your pinky toe a blister and the left one slides off your heel with every step. That's exactly like most " driver fittings " go. Sometimes you get lucky and it works. But even if it does you can't tell me what size shoe you wear. You can only say " 7-9". So next time you want to order a pair. You pull the hammer back and pull the trigger tigger and hope for the best. Again.

 

We just disagree. No need to have a cow.

 

Moooooooooooo. :lol:

 

Not having a cow but how would I KNOW if we disagree ?

 

Let's take posts 62 & 63. I asked you specifically "WHAT is not true ?" (about & while quoting the previous post(s)). Your answer "Sure, use the joe hack approach". :lol: FWIW, we, or at least *I*, was discussing fittings and I, was specifically referring to fittings "in general", i.e. for the average golfer. That's NOT you.

 

Look at your post #57. You start with "Just not true". Yes, you did mention the face loft but *I* didn't. That's why I asked you in the first place "WHAT'S not true ?"

 

And I also answered you (anyway, even though I didn't ask). A driver head that's say 9* may be off a full degree but you now have hosel adjustments for MORE than that. And even YOU don't hit your driver at a launch angle of 12* (or whatever) EVERY time so how big a difference can even 1 FULL degree of loft make to you when your launch probably varies at least 2-3* ?

 

On my "doing the same". Wrong. When I quote somebody I start writing my answer to the primary point I'm looking to address. Once I do that I go back and read the quoted text again to see if there's anything else I wanted to respond to. Rinse and repeat. I don't write, "out of the blue" "That's just not true" when the guy had 8 different thoughts.

 

"I say you do the same. A lot of repeats after I've answer a question. I answered the question on why loft face angle etc matters and you countered with basically " nobody knows the difference ". So I said ok. Then how is it a fitting ? Proves my point that " fittings" are only happening in name. Not in actual practice."

 

Ahhhhh, I see now, except that I never mentioned face loft so you weren't actually "answering" anything. See above. Twice. I was talking about fittings "in general" and for the "average" player and even YOU have a spread of launch angles. So even 1 degree you ain't gonna notice.

 

You also said "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers".

 

I pointed out that 600 rpm difference in a driver @ 180 MPH BALL speed would be roughly 7 yards. e.g. 2800 rpm vs. say 2200 rpm. I can't see how you could possibly vary your driver spin rate on anything resembling a reasonably good strike much more than 600 rpms.

 

Your reply ? {crickets}

 

 

You wrote - "That's exactly like most " driver fittings " go. Sometimes you get lucky and it works."

 

Say what ? now you're talking about the average player ? Make up my mind, will ya ? :lol:

 

 

You can't be talking about yourself because you shouldn't NEED to "get lucky". You have a repeatable swing. If YOU get fitted properly it "has" to work for you. There's no luck there. Will you find something even better at a later date ? Maybe.

 

 

The average player gets "lucky" if his driver fitting works ? His driver fitting may not "work" for a myriad of reasons,,,,,,

 

I'm sure I've forgotten a number of them but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

"I don't understand, I carry it much farther on the golf course"

"Can't hit indoors"

"Can't focus with someone watching"

"Didn't have my swing that day"

"Hurt my hip the day before"

"This driver is terrible"

"The sun was in my eyes"

 

and the #1 answer is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Bought the driver that gave me the longest and straightest drive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ONCE" :lol:

 

 

Enjoy the day my friend. :good:

[bladehunter]

Sure. Use the " joe hack " can't tell the difference excuse. Don't you see. That just proves my point. That a real fitting is rare.

 

Sure. It can be argued that some degree of trial and error is better than nothing. But it just irks me to no end to hear people ask " were you fitted " when someone posts About driver issues etc. I want so badly to say " yes. But were you "? 99 % who think they've been fitted have no clue what swingweight , length or tip trim is optimum for them. Callling what is known as a fitting today a " fitting " is like calling a McDonald's fry cook a chef.

 

Proves what point ? Sorry, never mind. You don't answer any questions anyway. You rail and rant and misquote things and then when asked about it you write this drivel.

 

Later ;)

 

Lol. I say you do the same. A lot of repeats after I've answer a question. I answered the question on why loft face angle etc matters and you countered with basically " nobody knows the difference ". So I said ok. Then how is it a fitting ? Proves my point that " fittings" are only happening in name. Not in actual practice.

 

Try on this analogy. You go into a shoe store to buy new shoes. The clerk gets the samples out and the measuring device and he/she finds a right and left shoe that fits your foot. You look into the shoes and see a size listed as 7-9 . So that's what you order. They come in and the right one gives your pinky toe a blister and the left one slides off your heel with every step. That's exactly like most " driver fittings " go. Sometimes you get lucky and it works. But even if it does you can't tell me what size shoe you wear. You can only say " 7-9". So next time you want to order a pair. You pull the hammer back and pull the trigger tigger and hope for the best. Again.

 

We just disagree. No need to have a cow.

 

Moooooooooooo. :lol:

 

Not having a cow but how would I KNOW if we disagree ?

 

Let's take posts 62 & 63. I asked you specifically "WHAT is not true ?" (about & while quoting the previous post(s)). Your answer "Sure, use the joe hack approach". :lol: FWIW, we, or at least *I*, was discussing fittings and I, was specifically referring to fittings "in general", i.e. for the average golfer. That's NOT you.

 

Look at your post #57. You start with "Just not true". Yes, you did mention the face loft but *I* didn't. That's why I asked you in the first place "WHAT'S not true ?"

 

And I also answered you (anyway, even though I didn't ask). A driver head that's say 9* may be off a full degree but you now have hosel adjustments for MORE than that. And even YOU don't hit your driver at a launch angle of 12* (or whatever) EVERY time so how big a difference can even 1 FULL degree of loft make to you when your launch probably varies at least 2-3* ?

 

On my "doing the same". Wrong. When I quote somebody I start writing my answer to the primary point I'm looking to address. Once I do that I go back and read the quoted text again to see if there's anything else I wanted to respond to. Rinse and repeat. I don't write, "out of the blue" "That's just not true" when the guy had 8 different thoughts.

 

"I say you do the same. A lot of repeats after I've answer a question. I answered the question on why loft face angle etc matters and you countered with basically " nobody knows the difference ". So I said ok. Then how is it a fitting ? Proves my point that " fittings" are only happening in name. Not in actual practice."

 

Ahhhhh, I see now, except that I never mentioned face loft so you weren't actually "answering" anything. See above. Twice. I was talking about fittings "in general" and for the "average" player and even YOU have a spread of launch angles. So even 1 degree you ain't gonna notice.

 

You also said "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers".

 

I pointed out that 600 rpm difference in a driver @ 180 MPH BALL speed would be roughly 7 yards. e.g. 2800 rpm vs. say 2200 rpm. I can't see how you could possibly vary your driver spin rate on anything resembling a reasonably good strike much more than 600 rpms.

 

Your reply ? {crickets}

 

 

You wrote - "That's exactly like most " driver fittings " go. Sometimes you get lucky and it works."

 

Say what ? now you're talking about the average player ? Make up my mind, will ya ? :lol:

 

 

You can't be talking about yourself because you shouldn't NEED to "get lucky". You have a repeatable swing. If YOU get fitted properly it "has" to work for you. There's no luck there. Will you find something even better at a later date ? Maybe.

 

 

The average player gets "lucky" if his driver fitting works ? His driver fitting may not "work" for a myriad of reasons,,,,,,

 

I'm sure I've forgotten a number of them but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

"I don't understand, I carry it much farther on the golf course"

"Can't hit indoors"

"Can't focus with someone watching"

"Didn't have my swing that day"

"Hurt my hip the day before"

"This driver is terrible"

"The sun was in my eyes"

 

and the #1 answer is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Bought the driver that gave me the longest and straightest drive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ONCE" :lol:

 

 

Enjoy the day my friend. :good:

 

 

Part of the communication disconnect. You prey on my short attention span. Who can read all that ? Lol. I got about half way and skimmed to the have a good day. Which is what I usually do.

 

Lots of words. But what you’re saying is this “ average golfer gets close enough with big box fittings. Why ? Cause the hosel adjusts. “.

 

Which maybe true. I guess. But I take that to mean that to the average player , a real precise fitting does not matter. Yes or no? I think yes. It still matters. But most never get close.

 

To any outside bystanders. . We’re friends. lol. He’s just battling for the obstinate award for the month. And I don’t intend to let him have it ! Lol

[JoeJoeJoeUrBoat]

Nothing in the last 3-4 years will give you an extra 10 yards if you were properly fit to maximize distance in 2 different clubs. But 90% (made up stat) of consumers fail to realize that. Which is why Taylormade and Callaway can produce a new driver bi-annually.

[nsxguy]

Sure. Use the " joe hack " can't tell the difference excuse. Don't you see. That just proves my point. That a real fitting is rare.

 

Sure. It can be argued that some degree of trial and error is better than nothing. But it just irks me to no end to hear people ask " were you fitted " when someone posts About driver issues etc. I want so badly to say " yes. But were you "? 99 % who think they've been fitted have no clue what swingweight , length or tip trim is optimum for them. Callling what is known as a fitting today a " fitting " is like calling a McDonald's fry cook a chef.

 

Proves what point ? Sorry, never mind. You don't answer any questions anyway. You rail and rant and misquote things and then when asked about it you write this drivel.

 

Later ;)

 

Lol. I say you do the same. A lot of repeats after I've answer a question. I answered the question on why loft face angle etc matters and you countered with basically " nobody knows the difference ". So I said ok. Then how is it a fitting ? Proves my point that " fittings" are only happening in name. Not in actual practice.

 

Try on this analogy. You go into a shoe store to buy new shoes. The clerk gets the samples out and the measuring device and he/she finds a right and left shoe that fits your foot. You look into the shoes and see a size listed as 7-9 . So that's what you order. They come in and the right one gives your pinky toe a blister and the left one slides off your heel with every step. That's exactly like most " driver fittings " go. Sometimes you get lucky and it works. But even if it does you can't tell me what size shoe you wear. You can only say " 7-9". So next time you want to order a pair. You pull the hammer back and pull the trigger tigger and hope for the best. Again.

 

We just disagree. No need to have a cow.

 

Moooooooooooo. :lol:

 

Not having a cow but how would I KNOW if we disagree ?

 

Let's take posts 62 & 63. I asked you specifically "WHAT is not true ?" (about & while quoting the previous post(s)). Your answer "Sure, use the joe hack approach". :lol: FWIW, we, or at least *I*, was discussing fittings and I, was specifically referring to fittings "in general", i.e. for the average golfer. That's NOT you.

 

Look at your post #57. You start with "Just not true". Yes, you did mention the face loft but *I* didn't. That's why I asked you in the first place "WHAT'S not true ?"

 

And I also answered you (anyway, even though I didn't ask). A driver head that's say 9* may be off a full degree but you now have hosel adjustments for MORE than that. And even YOU don't hit your driver at a launch angle of 12* (or whatever) EVERY time so how big a difference can even 1 FULL degree of loft make to you when your launch probably varies at least 2-3* ?

 

On my "doing the same". Wrong. When I quote somebody I start writing my answer to the primary point I'm looking to address. Once I do that I go back and read the quoted text again to see if there's anything else I wanted to respond to. Rinse and repeat. I don't write, "out of the blue" "That's just not true" when the guy had 8 different thoughts.

 

"I say you do the same. A lot of repeats after I've answer a question. I answered the question on why loft face angle etc matters and you countered with basically " nobody knows the difference ". So I said ok. Then how is it a fitting ? Proves my point that " fittings" are only happening in name. Not in actual practice."

 

Ahhhhh, I see now, except that I never mentioned face loft so you weren't actually "answering" anything. See above. Twice. I was talking about fittings "in general" and for the "average" player and even YOU have a spread of launch angles. So even 1 degree you ain't gonna notice.

 

You also said "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers".

 

I pointed out that 600 rpm difference in a driver @ 180 MPH BALL speed would be roughly 7 yards. e.g. 2800 rpm vs. say 2200 rpm. I can't see how you could possibly vary your driver spin rate on anything resembling a reasonably good strike much more than 600 rpms.

 

Your reply ? {crickets}

 

 

You wrote - "That's exactly like most " driver fittings " go. Sometimes you get lucky and it works."

 

Say what ? now you're talking about the average player ? Make up my mind, will ya ? :lol:

 

 

You can't be talking about yourself because you shouldn't NEED to "get lucky". You have a repeatable swing. If YOU get fitted properly it "has" to work for you. There's no luck there. Will you find something even better at a later date ? Maybe.

 

 

The average player gets "lucky" if his driver fitting works ? His driver fitting may not "work" for a myriad of reasons,,,,,,

 

I'm sure I've forgotten a number of them but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

"I don't understand, I carry it much farther on the golf course"

"Can't hit indoors"

"Can't focus with someone watching"

"Didn't have my swing that day"

"Hurt my hip the day before"

"This driver is terrible"

"The sun was in my eyes"

 

and the #1 answer is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Bought the driver that gave me the longest and straightest drive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ONCE" :lol:

 

 

Enjoy the day my friend. :good:

 

 

Part of the communication disconnect. You prey on my short attention span. Who can read all that ? Lol. I got about half way and skimmed to the have a good day. Which is what I usually do.

 

Lots of words. But what you're saying is this " average golfer gets close enough with big box fittings. Why ? Cause the hosel adjusts. ".

 

Which maybe true. I guess. But I take that to mean that to the average player , a real precise fitting does not matter. Yes or no? I think yes. It still matters. But most never get close.

 

To any outside bystanders. . We're friends. lol. He's just battling for the obstinate award for the month. And I don't intend to let him have it ! Lol

 

To answer YOUR question. :taunt:

 

Not exactly (sorry).

 

To the poor player it means very little.

To the "average" player it means a bit more (how much may or may not be debatable.

To the accomplished player it means a lot.

[nsxguy]

 

Part of the communication disconnect. You prey on my short attention span. Who can read all that ? Lol. I got about half way and skimmed to the have a good day. Which is what I usually do.

 

Lots of words. But what you're saying is this " average golfer gets close enough with big box fittings. Why ? Cause the hosel adjusts. ".

 

Which maybe true. I guess. But I take that to mean that to the average player , a real precise fitting does not matter. Yes or no? I think yes. It still matters. But most never get close.

 

To any outside bystanders. . We're friends. lol. He's just battling for the obstinate award for the month. And I don't intend to let him have it ! Lol

 

A.D.D. I knew it. Hope this is short enough but since I answered your question,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

You said "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers".

 

I pointed out that according to flighscope, 600 rpm difference in a driver @ 180 MPH BALL speed would be roughly 7 yards. e.g. 2800 rpm vs. say 2200 rpm. I can't see how you could possibly vary your driver spin rate on anything resembling a reasonably good strike much more than 600 rpms. :beruo:

 

Your reply ? :blink:

[bladehunter]

 

Part of the communication disconnect. You prey on my short attention span. Who can read all that ? Lol. I got about half way and skimmed to the have a good day. Which is what I usually do.

 

Lots of words. But what you're saying is this " average golfer gets close enough with big box fittings. Why ? Cause the hosel adjusts. ".

 

Which maybe true. I guess. But I take that to mean that to the average player , a real precise fitting does not matter. Yes or no? I think yes. It still matters. But most never get close.

 

To any outside bystanders. . We're friends. lol. He's just battling for the obstinate award for the month. And I don't intend to let him have it ! Lol

 

A.D.D. I knew it. Hope this is short enough but since I answered your question,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

You said "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers".

 

I pointed out that according to flighscope, 600 rpm difference in a driver @ 180 MPH BALL speed would be roughly 7 yards. e.g. 2800 rpm vs. say 2200 rpm. I can't see how you could possibly vary your driver spin rate on anything resembling a reasonably good strike much more than 600 rpms. :beruo:

 

Your reply ? :blink:

 

ADD,OCD even ODD...lol. Not diagnosed or any. But surely all.

 

 

 

To answer that actual question.

 

I was referring to off center hits and dead center hits. Nobody hits the middle of a driver every time. Hardest club to middle in my opinion.

 

When I compare a driver it’s on alll hits. Not just perfect ones. Some heads are trash from the heel. Some terrible from the toe.

 

I’m a high spin player with a late release and really fast close rate at impact. Translation.- spin factory.

 

I can see 2100 to 4K rpm with the same head sometimes from dead middle to a low heel strike. Easily losing that 30 yards I mentioned.

 

Conversely some heads will hover from 2800 or so to 3400 no matter where I hit them. Those are the ones I play. Sacrificing a lot of carry to keep the bad ones on The planet.

[linkerpan]

I know there are some logic to both sides, but I would like to see a parent of a competitive teenager, letting him play (looking for a D1 scholarship), with a 2011 Driver. Just because “there is no advantage to new equipment”. Won’t find many

[coachemup]

Like many topics which come up on here, there is not a right or wrong answer (which is why I try not to post in threads like this, but I have down time right now so decided to give my opinion).

 

I know this much about my game, I am a morning person and swing the club different in the morning than I do in the evening. SS can vary 4 or 5 mph depending on the time of day and there is your 10+ yards( by the way humidity, temperature, altitude, etc... can also vary your distance by 10+ yards, but we all knew that already).

 

Although I don't play competively any longer and prefer to use equipment from the 90's, I have fit myself with many different drivers over the years and the common theme has been there is no one shaft which matches up perfectly to each head. I may need AD in a TS3, a TPT in a Mizuno 190 and a Diamana 70+ in a Cobra F9. I know I leave yards on the table because my eyes have a certain launch window (which is low) and I refuse to play something outside of that window. I could easily add 10+ yards if I were to "optimize" my equipment, but I am old and hard headed so therefore I play what "feels" right. Too me, I am not going to score any better (or any worse) regardless of what I play. I will find a way to get it around the course and score. The game is all about putting anyway ;)

 

Enjoy the rest of your day my friends!

[bladehunter]

Like many topics which come up on here, there is not a right or wrong answer (which is why I try not to post in threads like this, but I have down time right now so decided to give my opinion).

 

I know this much about my game, I am a morning person and swing the club different in the morning than I do in the evening. SS can vary 4 or 5 mph depending on the time of day and there is your 10+ yards( by the way humidity, temperature, altitude, etc... can also vary your distance by 10+ yards, but we all knew that already).

 

Although I don't play competively any longer and prefer to use equipment from the 90's, I have fit myself with many different drivers over the years and the common theme has been there is no one shaft which matches up perfectly to each head. I may need AD in a TS3, a TPT in a Mizuno 190 and a Diamana 70+ in a Cobra F9. I know I leave yards on the table because my eyes have a certain launch window (which is low) and I refuse to play something outside of that window. I could easily add 10+ yards if I were to "optimize" my equipment, but I am old and hard headed so therefore I play what "feels" right. Too me, I am not going to score any better (or any worse) regardless of what I play. I will find a way to get it around the course and score. The game is all about putting anyway ;)

 

Enjoy the rest of your day my friends!

 

This guy knows ^^^. Lol.

 

Damn putter.

[jwb10]

My point is this: most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance. If you are properly fit, you won't gain 10+ yards going from one to another.

 

Convince me I'm wrong...

No

[nsxguy]

Part of the communication disconnect. You prey on my short attention span. Who can read all that ? Lol. I got about half way and skimmed to the have a good day. Which is what I usually do.

 

Lots of words. But what you're saying is this " average golfer gets close enough with big box fittings. Why ? Cause the hosel adjusts. ".

 

Which maybe true. I guess. But I take that to mean that to the average player , a real precise fitting does not matter. Yes or no? I think yes. It still matters. But most never get close.

 

To any outside bystanders. . We're friends. lol. He's just battling for the obstinate award for the month. And I don't intend to let him have it ! Lol

 

A.D.D. I knew it. Hope this is short enough but since I answered your question,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

You said "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers".

 

I pointed out that according to flighscope, 600 rpm difference in a driver @ 180 MPH BALL speed would be roughly 7 yards. e.g. 2800 rpm vs. say 2200 rpm. I can't see how you could possibly vary your driver spin rate on anything resembling a reasonably good strike much more than 600 rpms. :beruo:

 

Your reply ? :blink:

 

ADD,OCD even ODD...lol. Not diagnosed or any. But surely all.

 

 

 

To answer that actual question.

 

I was referring to off center hits and dead center hits. Nobody hits the middle of a driver every time. Hardest club to middle in my opinion.

 

When I compare a driver it's on alll hits. Not just perfect ones. Some heads are trash from the heel. Some terrible from the toe.

 

I'm a high spin player with a late release and really fast close rate at impact. Translation.- spin factory.

 

I can see 2100 to 4K rpm with the same head sometimes from dead middle to a low heel strike. Easily losing that 30 yards I mentioned.

 

Conversely some heads will hover from 2800 or so to 3400 no matter where I hit them. Those are the ones I play. Sacrificing a lot of carry to keep the bad ones on The planet.

 

So your "With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers" was referring to mishits vs, center stikes ? And that is supposed to be "news" ? LMAO

 

Below is your original reply to "Jeff" where you said that.

 

Do you seriously believe he was talking about good hits vs. mishits ? :blink:

 

 

Disagree....And there's pretty much zero question that i'm right at least in that this will not apply to everyone , or even almost everyone

 

If you carry the ball 280 for example, 10 yards is 3.5% of your total distance. That is really not that much. A low spin head versus a normal head, even with the same loft and shaft, you could see a 10yd difference for sure.

 

If you carry 250yds, we're talking 4% of your total

 

I do not believe that all driver heads are within 4% of each other for every possible swing type and swing speed. I'm very confident that if you gave most golfers the ability to test every driver on the market with the same loft and shaft, there'd be a 10yd variance between the longest and shortest if they can carry the ball anywhere close to 250 or longer

 

If your current driver is one that you were properly fit for and is <6-7 years old. Than no you probably wouldn't gain 10 however. But i would strongly disagree that all drivers are basically the same

 

Have to agree with Jeff. With me I can see an easy 30 yard swing with spin numbers. I don't always play the longest head I've hit. I play the one I can control.

 

Not to mention the fact that a true fitting isn't available to most people. Going to the big box and hitting 5 stock shafts isn't a fitting. Put it this way. If you haven't walked out of the facility with the very head and shaft in hand that you tested you haven't been actually fit into anything. I'm talking the test head.

 

You think the tour van guys make you a test driver , you test it on trackman and on course , love it then they order an " identical " one from the factory ? Nope. You hit that one. The one that worked. " fittings" are mostly a farce.

[Josh L.]

Not sure about the yardage but I just saved 10% on car insurance by switching to Geico.

[wobgon]

Not sure about the yardage but I just saved 10% on car insurance by switching to Geico.

 

I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

[Doublebuck]

Not sure about the yardage but I just saved 10% on car insurance by switching to Geico.

 

I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

Trivago was spot onl

[bladehunter]

Nsx-

 

 

 

I’m not sure what your point is ?

 

I agreed with Jeff and added that some heads are very much less forgiving or add tons of spin for a slight mishit. For me.

 

Jeff says 10 yards head to head difference possible via spin. I was simply adding that you also have to account for the mishit difference. Some heads don’t add too much spin. So a mishit still travels. Some just go nuts. And seem to double it. All part of considerations of a real fitting . Where’s the argument ?

[rt_charger]

Not sure about the yardage but I just saved 10% on car insurance by switching to Geico.

 

I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

Trivago was spot onl

Someone's been listening to Mr Convincing... you need hotels combined! Who wouldn't listen to a talking animated polar bear ?‍♀️

[pinestreetgolf]

1. We measure in percent (MTJeff is right). "10 yards" is meaningless. 10% is meaningful. If I carry it 320, 10 yards is ~3%. A head could absolutely get me that. If I carry it 180, 10 yards is way higher in terms of percent. There is no way you could get 10 yards on a guy who carries it 180. 10% of a 320 carry is 32, 10% of a 180 carry is 18. You can't talk about distance in flat yards. It doesn't make any sense, and unless we talk about this in percent, this thread is completely meaningless. Comparing a flat "10 yards" to me (decent hitter) and my 77-year-old, retired father who loves golf but carries it 200 is ridiculous. 10% makes sense. 10 yards does not. The question defeats the discussion.

 

2. You can't move a drive 30 yards up or down with spin. Obviously blade just through that out there without thinking it through. Good job NSX, you've managed to both make blade look slightly careless and derail an interesting thread. You win that battle but lose the war. Bladehunter's overall point is sound - that an average of shots should be used, and forgiveness can therefore increase carry distance - we shouldn't only use the best strikes, and that can be improved with modern technology.

 

Is there no driver, anywhere, that can see +10 yards? Well, given that some guys can hit it 360 (jacob bowden, a writer who isn't even a tour player), yeah, they can pick up 10 probably. My dad who pokes it 200? No chance.

 

Either talk about it in percent or don't bother. 10 yards to a 30-something who carries it 295 is completely different than 10 yards to a 10-year old who carries it 200 yards which is completely different than a aspiring long driver who carries it 400 yards. Its just a nonsense discussion if had in yards.

[Benkross]

Gains are mostly on mishits, newer drivers tend to be straighter and longer when not centering the face.

 

That and fitting of course but thats a different enchilada.

This!

[bladehunter]

1. We measure in percent (MTJeff is right). "10 yards" is meaningless. 10% is meaningful. If I carry it 320, 10 yards is ~3%. A head could absolutely get me that. If I carry it 180, 10 yards is way higher in terms of percent. There is no way you could get 10 yards on a guy who carries it 180. 10% of a 320 carry is 32, 10% of a 180 carry is 18. You can't talk about distance in flat yards. It doesn't make any sense, and unless we talk about this in percent, this thread is completely meaningless. Comparing a flat "10 yards" to me (decent hitter) and my 77-year-old, retired father who loves golf but carries it 200 is ridiculous. 10% makes sense. 10 yards does not. The question defeats the discussion.

 

2. You can't move a drive 30 yards up or down with spin. Obviously blade just through that out there without thinking it through. Good job NSX, you've managed to both make blade look slightly careless and derail an interesting thread. You win that battle but lose the war. Bladehunter's overall point is sound - that an average of shots should be used, and forgiveness can therefore increase carry distance - we shouldn't only use the best strikes, and that can be improved with modern technology.

 

Is there no driver, anywhere, that can see +10 yards? Well, given that some guys can hit it 360 (jacob bowden, a writer who isn't even a tour player), yeah, they can pick up 10 probably. My dad who pokes it 200? No chance.

 

Either talk about it in percent or don't bother.

 

All true and good points. I’m sorry I wasn’t infinitely clear on my post. But I don’t see how anyone assumes that I meant 30 yards difference on spin alone. Of course it meant on mishits. Which I did state spin a ton for me with some heads. Careless of me I guess. But I think using a little nogin anyone could see what I was getting at.

 

To a side note. I’m still amazed how many professed higher handicaps claim to not miss the middle with a driver . I can only assume ( I know I know ) that their misses aren’t big as they seem unconcerned with mishits and the spin characteristics of those misses. For instance I feel like I middle a driver. I mean really center one maybe 1 of every 10 swings. Maybe. On a good day. I’m not talking huge misses the other 9. But I see a big drop off in distance for a ball a mm high and/or heel side on the face . And that’s with a g400 max head. The most forgiving thing made. Part of that maybe because I don’t launch the ball high with driver. Usually around 8-9.5 degrees. Tops 11. I don’t know.

 

I guess what I’m trying to get at is that people seem to either hit it consistently bad and think they hit it goood because it’s consistent or they hit it consistently great and throw out any mishits as inconvenient stats that don’t matter to them. I don’t throw out any drive I hit on the face. A pop up , sure. But that’s uber rare. I see 30 yards easily variance in drives depending on strike.( outdoor tests on trackman ) you combine a heel miss with an open face and I promise that 290 carry turns into 255-260 really easily.. I’ve seen ground spin to the right before it’s spining so much. And some heads are better than others at that. I’m not saying anything except that. So I’m not sure at all what the disagreement is.

 

Edit. I’ll add. According to trackman some of push / heel misses are 38% short of the maxed out mark for my speed and launch angle. If that percent tells you more . I harp on that miss because it’s the predominant thing I fight. If you include all those misses on track man I average carry 264. My longest carry recorded by trackman is 318. So you can see how I may pickup a head that mitigates that miss and say “ I picked up 20 yards “. Did I ? In practice. Yes. In reality I guess it’s more of reaching closer to the potential that’s already been seen. I’m just not sure why people only consider perfect strikes as a gain. If my ball is 20 yards down the fairway with same effort. I call it a gain. You guys preach forgiveness / fittings etc to me in other arenas. Now I mention it and it’s crazy talk.

[Shilgy]

1. We measure in percent (MTJeff is right). "10 yards" is meaningless. 10% is meaningful. If I carry it 320, 10 yards is ~3%. A head could absolutely get me that. If I carry it 180, 10 yards is way higher in terms of percent. There is no way you could get 10 yards on a guy who carries it 180. 10% of a 320 carry is 32, 10% of a 180 carry is 18. You can't talk about distance in flat yards. It doesn't make any sense, and unless we talk about this in percent, this thread is completely meaningless. Comparing a flat "10 yards" to me (decent hitter) and my 77-year-old, retired father who loves golf but carries it 200 is ridiculous. 10% makes sense. 10 yards does not. The question defeats the discussion.

 

2. You can't move a drive 30 yards up or down with spin. Obviously blade just through that out there without thinking it through. Good job NSX, you've managed to both make blade look slightly careless and derail an interesting thread. You win that battle but lose the war. Bladehunter's overall point is sound - that an average of shots should be used, and forgiveness can therefore increase carry distance - we shouldn't only use the best strikes, and that can be improved with modern technology.

 

Is there no driver, anywhere, that can see +10 yards? Well, given that some guys can hit it 360 (jacob bowden, a writer who isn't even a tour player), yeah, they can pick up 10 probably. My dad who pokes it 200? No chance.

 

Either talk about it in percent or don't bother. 10 yards to a 30-something who carries it 295 is completely different than 10 yards to a 10-year old who carries it 200 yards which is completely different than a aspiring long driver who carries it 400 yards. Its just a nonsense discussion if had in yards.

Sorry Pine but I gotta ask... Doesn't your point #2 kinda contradict point #1? :)

I don't think percentage is the answer. Can someone pick up a couple mph ballspeed? Probably. Which will equate to a few extra yards. But the low speed player can more easily gain X% compared to the high speed maxed out player.

[pinestreetgolf]

1. We measure in percent (MTJeff is right). "10 yards" is meaningless. 10% is meaningful. If I carry it 320, 10 yards is ~3%. A head could absolutely get me that. If I carry it 180, 10 yards is way higher in terms of percent. There is no way you could get 10 yards on a guy who carries it 180. 10% of a 320 carry is 32, 10% of a 180 carry is 18. You can't talk about distance in flat yards. It doesn't make any sense, and unless we talk about this in percent, this thread is completely meaningless. Comparing a flat "10 yards" to me (decent hitter) and my 77-year-old, retired father who loves golf but carries it 200 is ridiculous. 10% makes sense. 10 yards does not. The question defeats the discussion.

 

2. You can't move a drive 30 yards up or down with spin. Obviously blade just through that out there without thinking it through. Good job NSX, you've managed to both make blade look slightly careless and derail an interesting thread. You win that battle but lose the war. Bladehunter's overall point is sound - that an average of shots should be used, and forgiveness can therefore increase carry distance - we shouldn't only use the best strikes, and that can be improved with modern technology.

 

Is there no driver, anywhere, that can see +10 yards? Well, given that some guys can hit it 360 (jacob bowden, a writer who isn't even a tour player), yeah, they can pick up 10 probably. My dad who pokes it 200? No chance.

 

Either talk about it in percent or don't bother. 10 yards to a 30-something who carries it 295 is completely different than 10 yards to a 10-year old who carries it 200 yards which is completely different than a aspiring long driver who carries it 400 yards. Its just a nonsense discussion if had in yards.

Sorry Pine but I gotta ask... Doesn't your point #2 kinda contradict point #1? :)

I don't think percentage is the answer. Can someone pick up a couple mph ballspeed? Probably. Which will equate to a few extra yards. But the low speed player can more easily gain X% compared to the high speed maxed out player.

 

1. Yes it does! You're right. I should have said "bladhunter can probably not pick up or lose 30 yards with spin". You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct (hopefully someone gets that reference).

 

2. I totally disagree about the second part *when we are talking only about equipment*. It is true that it is easier for a weaker player to add than a longer player, but assuming the technique stays the same, percent should equalize everything (again, not talking about improving mechanics, which is obviously easier the worse you are). 32 yards to a 320 driver is the same as 18 yards to a 180 driver, from an equipment evaluation perspective. I'm not sure how else you could do it. Now, yes, it is not literally identical - you'd have to discount for things like air resistance which hit the 320 yard player harder than the 180 yard player - but its about right.

[vanillafunk616]

You can look at fitting datasets and see some drivers will significantly outperform others, even set up at the same specs, same shaft etc. If you look at tollbros fitting data for the last 3 years of Taylormade drivers set up at the same specs, the same player will get close to 10 yards difference between the best and worst performing driver.

[nsxguy]

My point is this: most all new major drivers releases today are similar performance. If you are properly fit, you won't gain 10+ yards going from one to another.

 

Convince me I'm wrong...

Nsx-

I'm not sure what your point is ?

 

I agreed with Jeff and added that some heads are very much less forgiving or add tons of spin for a slight mishit. For me.

 

Jeff says 10 yards head to head difference possible via spin. I was simply adding that you also have to account for the mishit difference. Some heads don't add too much spin. So a mishit still travels. Some just go nuts. And seem to double it. All part of considerations of a real fitting . Where's the argument ?

 

My point is I can't read your mind.

 

I'm guessing you're not talking about a player such as yourself taking a normal swing and generating ~2200 rpm vs. you intentionally striking very hard downward on purpose and generating 4K with the same head, right ?

 

Do you see what the title and original post/point was (or at least seems to be) ?

 

Do you really think he was talking about "mishits" ?

 

Do you really think (as Jeff alluded to) he was talking about "apples to oranges" where the tester is hitting a SGI driver head that might spin at 4K for a 180 mph ball speed vs. a driver head that'll spin at 2200 for the same player (~ 23 yard carry difference for 180 ball speed according to flightscope) ?

 

 

Or do you think it was more likely he was talking about similar driver heads, say Cobra F9, Epic Flas, G410, TS2/3 & TM M5/6 ?