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Jimmy Ballard

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  • flatnstuckflatnstuck  363WRX Points: 47Members Posts: 363
    Joined:  #512
    Ayersjj wrote:

    flatnstuck wrote:


    So I guess my question is why does the stance have to be that wide? The lateral motion back and forth is to get each respective hip joint over the knee and ankle so that you can turn and that joint becomes the pivot point of that portion of the swing instead of the spine. That’s pretty brilliant actually. It just seems that you’re introducing a lot of room for error by adding 4-6 inches of lateral motion when you don’t really have to.



    I understand coiling back to to provide power to the blow, but the backhanded slap that JB so often uses to illustrate the motion doesn’t have a two + foot extension with a head on it trying to hit a small ball in the middle of the club face.
    I listened to J colbert talk about getting “behind” the shaft. I think ur question brings up the lesser if two evils possible compromise. Going over the wall (right leg) loading the backswing is not what JB teaches. But if u were to move that cart u betterget behind and load yhen fire or its a slap. I was an assistant pro at Valhalla Golf Club back in 80s and a member Bill Mussleman gave me an image that stuck with me. He played with Irwin at Colorado. He won numerous Kentucky Opens so I listened closely.



    He said he tries to open the door and slam it shut with his right arm and side. You would not stand right next to door rather a running start and slam the **** out of it. If we had a contest who could slam it harder the guy that set into his right foot got behind the door for leverage wins.




    Fantastic reply, and thank you for taking the question in the spirit it was in which it was posed. That being curiosity and interest in learning.



    So have you found that shoulder width is the best compromise between ability to get behind the door to slam it and precision of the blow? I can see it especially with the modern driver and it’s large forgiving face. But I worry about hand eye coordination for weekend warrior such as myself.



    I’ve never been “long”, but like many I get considerably longer as my confidence quotient increases increase with success, and hence the questions about lateral motion and accuracy of the strike.



    Another question. I’ve started my backswing with my lower body for some time now, as this seems like it might work well with Ballard’s method. If I were to load up to punch something, or rare back to slam the door in your example, I would naturally think about my arms but probably involuntarily take a step back with my right foot. It seems that starting with the lower body might do the same while helping to keep the club in front of the chest before cooking over the right hip socket.



    Thoughts?
    Posted:
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  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:42pm #513
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    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:42pm #514
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    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:42pm #515
    Removed
    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:42pm #516
    Removed
    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:42pm #517
    Removed
    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
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  • SparklehorseSparklehorse  34WRX Points: 1Members Posts: 34
    Joined:  edited Feb 13, 2019 8:59am #518
    I've already seen 3 major threads about the golf swing since joining and wondering what the major differences are?



    There is the Jimmy Ballard, Manuel De La Torre and Arm Swing illusion.



    So which one is correct ? Or are they all relevant but to only a subset of golfers?
    Posted:
  • gsea33gsea33  740WRX Points: 183Members Posts: 740
    Joined:  #519


    I want to share with you all one of the greatest articles, in my opinion, on the golf swing that has ever been written. It was in Golf Digest in 1981 the year after JB wrote his book. It's like a cliff notes version of his book, and definitely worth reading. It was a two part series and seeing I saved both parts, I figured I'd scan and share it with you guys seeing it is SO good. I will share part 1 today and then the rest another day, but I would rather you all had time to digest part 1 first. I also will upload some of the other great articles I have saved, but it takes time to scan and I would rather you had a little time in between each one.... Enjoy!



    PART 1:


    Thank you Speedster for sharing this. Since we got another storm over night I now have some reading material:)
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  • dodgerdodger  425WRX Points: 108Members Posts: 425
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    I want to share with you all one of the greatest articles, in my opinion, on the golf swing that has ever been written. It was in Golf Digest in 1981 the year after JB wrote his book. It's like a cliff notes version of his book, and definitely worth reading. It was a two part series and seeing I saved both parts, I figured I'd scan and share it with you guys seeing it is SO good. I will share part 1 today and then the rest another day, but I would rather you all had time to digest part 1 first. I also will upload some of the other great articles I have saved, but it takes time to scan and I would rather you had a little time in between each one.... Enjoy!



    PART 1:
    The picture on golf digest page 47, last one in the post, is the one that gives me the most problems. I interpreted this instruction 40 years ago when I read it, as indicating the left arm connection translates into low left arm. JB talks about lifting from the shoulder joint is wrong, but his later instruction has you lift from the right shoulder joint, a thought that really works well for me. Should this article have read that the left arm does not lift at the shoulder, but the right does? I translate the coil as not being possible if the right shoulder joint stays level in the backswing. Wide stance to utilize both hips and spine moves into wall with right shoulder going up is how I summarize JB. Am I mistaken?
    Posted:
  • AyersjjAyersjj Coast 290WRX Points: 137Members Posts: 290
    Joined:  #521



    Many(other swing gurus) accused Jimmy of promoting a sway yet when i discussed this with him he said "nonsense" and more or less with a "braced right knee" how can you sway !




    Yes and to add to that statement, with the right foot (right handed golfer) turned towards the target it's very difficult to sway and get over the wall. Like I said in a previous post, all the years I have spent with JB, the only thing that I have noticed that he has changed in his teaching is that he used to want the right foot square/perpendicular to the target and now he wants it turned towards the target. Colbert stopped by a few weeks ago to visit JB and he said that he actually tried to point his right big toe at the ball when he took his address.



    Below is a picture of Colbert sharing some of his feels and thoughts a few weeks ago.... the guy in the middle is Johan Tumba who I used to play pro golf with in the 1990's, he is a very long hitting Swede (back when 300+ yards was not as common), he is very good friends with Jesper and played on Jesper's college team at Palm Beach Community College back when they won the national championship.... three of those five players from that National Championship team work with JB; Johan Tumba, Jesper Parnevik and David Ladd..... that speak volumes. JB's teaching was ahead of his time and TIMELESS as long as the human body continues to have two hip sockets image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />.



    I've tried to save as many Jimmy Ballard articles as I could since 1980.... I didn't start working will Ballard until 1995, but in the 1980's I worked with one of his disciples who was a great player named Paul Moran so most of my golfing life has been centered around Jimmy Ballard's teaching philosophy. I am including an article from Golf Digest in 1981 that talks about the wall, it's also mentioned in his book, but the article takes up a full page on this topic and is much easier to scan than a page from his book.




    DJ I have contacted Jane Rosenburg about a video of Jimmy and Colbert taking about what they teach. Its an excellent clinic between Jimmy and Colbert. Jane said its available on Jimmys website but I cannot find. I figure u might have it ? Awesome video but cannot find when they first opened their school for Jane location.https://m.facebook.com/pg/colbertballardgolfschool/posts/
    Posted:

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  • BrianMcGBrianMcG  2376WRX Points: 657Members Posts: 2,376
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    Pure gold Speedster. Thanks!
    Posted:
    Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
    Bobby: I play because I love it.
    Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.
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  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:43pm #523
    Removed
    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:43pm #524
    Removed
    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:43pm #525
    Removed
    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • AyersjjAyersjj Coast 290WRX Points: 137Members Posts: 290
    Joined:  #526

    Ayersjj wrote:




    DJ I have contacted Jane Rosenburg about a video of Jimmy and Colbert taking about what they teach. Its an excellent clinic between Jimmy and Colbert. Jane said its available on Jimmys website but I cannot find. I figure u might have it ? Awesome video but cannot find when they first opened their school for Jane location.https://m.facebook.com/pg/colbertballardgolfschool/posts/




    I don't have it, but I can ask JB if he has a copy.




    Jane has it and said she will post on FB but I dont have FB.

    She never posted. Said goto Jimmys site.



    There is very little on Colbert via video and articles. Being the level of success he had Im surprised. This video is very insightful if u can get ur hands on it. Thanks
    Posted:

    Hogan Apex Edge Pro pw-3i
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  • AyersjjAyersjj Coast 290WRX Points: 137Members Posts: 290
    Joined:  #527
    dodger wrote:



    I want to share with you all one of the greatest articles, in my opinion, on the golf swing that has ever been written. It was in Golf Digest in 1981 the year after JB wrote his book. It's like a cliff notes version of his book, and definitely worth reading. It was a two part series and seeing I saved both parts, I figured I'd scan and share it with you guys seeing it is SO good. I will share part 1 today and then the rest another day, but I would rather you all had time to digest part 1 first. I also will upload some of the other great articles I have saved, but it takes time to scan and I would rather you had a little time in between each one.... Enjoy!



    PART 1:
    The picture on golf digest page 47, last one in the post, is the one that gives me the most problems. I interpreted this instruction 40 years ago when I read it, as indicating the left arm connection translates into low left arm. JB talks about lifting from the shoulder joint is wrong, but his later instruction has you lift from the right shoulder joint, a thought that really works well for me. Should this article have read that the left arm does not lift at the shoulder, but the right does? I translate the coil as not being possible if the right shoulder joint stays level in the backswing. Wide stance to utilize both hips and spine moves into wall with right shoulder going up is how I summarize JB. Am I mistaken?


    Skip a rock, throw sidearm. You would not do it stuck on the right rib cage. The first move on the downswing is where the butt of club IMMEDiATELY starts to seek out center which means the right arm has workd UP onto the shoulder plane leaving shaft plane. Keeping the triangle as u do this is my understanding without rotatiin of left elbow.
    Posted:

    Hogan Apex Edge Pro pw-3i
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  • flatnstuckflatnstuck  363WRX Points: 47Members Posts: 363
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    This brings another question. I’ve read about the feel of spearing the sternum to start the downswing, but should the lower body (right hip/leg) feel like it’s swinging out to get on the outside rail of a train track formed by the heel line (near track) and ball line (outside track)? These two feels seem to be the best way, for me anyway, to fire the right side while keeping it high and not opening the shoulders too quickly on the downswing.
    Posted:
  • AyersjjAyersjj Coast 290WRX Points: 137Members Posts: 290
    Joined:  #529
    flatnstuck wrote:

    Ayersjj wrote:

    flatnstuck wrote:


    So I guess my question is why does the stance have to be that wide? The lateral motion back and forth is to get each respective hip joint over the knee and ankle so that you can turn and that joint becomes the pivot point of that portion of the swing instead of the spine. That’s pretty brilliant actually. It just seems that you’re introducing a lot of room for error by adding 4-6 inches of lateral motion when you don’t really have to.



    I understand coiling back to to provide power to the blow, but the backhanded slap that JB so often uses to illustrate the motion doesn’t have a two + foot extension with a head on it trying to hit a small ball in the middle of the club face.
    I listened to J colbert talk about getting “behind” the shaft. I think ur question brings up the lesser if two evils possible compromise. Going over the wall (right leg) loading the backswing is not what JB teaches. But if u were to move that cart u betterget behind and load yhen fire or its a slap. I was an assistant pro at Valhalla Golf Club back in 80s and a member Bill Mussleman gave me an image that stuck with me. He played with Irwin at Colorado. He won numerous Kentucky Opens so I listened closely.



    He said he tries to open the door and slam it shut with his right arm and side. You would not stand right next to door rather a running start and slam the **** out of it. If we had a contest who could slam it harder the guy that set into his right foot got behind the door for leverage wins.




    Fantastic reply, and thank you for taking the question in the spirit it was in which it was posed. That being curiosity and interest in learning.



    So have you found that shoulder width is the best compromise between ability to get behind the door to slam it and precision of the blow? I can see it especially with the modern driver and it’s large forgiving face. But I worry about hand eye coordination for weekend warrior such as myself.



    I’ve never been “long”, but like many I get considerably longer as my confidence quotient increases increase with success, and hence the questions about lateral motion and accuracy of the strike.



    Another question. I’ve started my backswing with my lower body for some time now, as this seems like it might work well with Ballard’s method. If I were to load up to punch something, or rare back to slam the door in your example, I would naturally think about my arms but probably involuntarily take a step back with my right foot. It seems that starting with the lower body might do the same while helping to keep the club in front of the chest before cooking over the right hip socket.



    Thoughts?




    One of the things JB always told me was Sutton struggled with reverse pivot. Curtis obviously moved more than Sutton. So, u have a choice to make. What will best produce solid contact. 97Speeder or DJ says it best, know ur swing. U become ur best teacher or compromised enemy.



    Sure a perfect triangle and load is nice but there are going to be variances btw all of us. Jimmy wont stray from the fundamental of weight shift, but if u start reversing bc u dont want to move JB will hammer that first. He must have said the same thing to me 4-5 times before my bullhead finally loaded into my right leg. I use to slide instead of coil and could still play at a high level missing Canadian tour and many PGA tour events by one shot sliding. Maybe if I was more athletic I would have not snap hooked those few shots that took away a career by sliding not coiling? Dunno.



    What I do know its simple but hard to do ask Rocco.





    Posted:

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  • AyersjjAyersjj Coast 290WRX Points: 137Members Posts: 290
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    flatnstuck wrote:


    This brings another question. I’ve read about the feel of spearing the sternum to start the downswing, but should the lower body (right hip/leg) feel like it’s swinging out to get on the outside rail of a train track formed by the heel line (near track) and ball line (outside track)? These two feels seem to be the best way, for me anyway, to fire the right side while keeping it high and not opening the shoulders too quickly on the downswing.
    Definately firing towards the ball and THRU to the target. I feel like I am on my right toe with a high right hip. It is a firing of the right side with a high right hip or u will get stuck club behind.



    Here in my swing JB lesson said I wasnt firing right side enough in transition and getting stuck. I started using the split hands drill to feel pressure in the shaft TOWARDS the ball and thru later to counter



    Posted:

    Hogan Apex Edge Pro pw-3i
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  • torbilltorbill  368WRX Points: 242Members Posts: 368
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    flatnstuck wrote:


    So I guess my question is why does the stance have to be that wide? The lateral motion back and forth is to get each respective hip joint over the knee and ankle so that you can turn and that joint becomes the pivot point of that portion of the swing instead of the spine. That’s pretty brilliant actually. It just seems that you’re introducing a lot of room for error by adding 4-6 inches of lateral motion when you don’t really have to.



    I understand coiling back to to provide power to the blow, but the backhanded slap that JB so often uses to illustrate the motion doesn’t have a two + foot extension with a head on it trying to hit a small ball in the middle of the club face.




    You are suggesting that motion inherently creates inconsistent contact, so that more lateral motion means more inconsistency. I don’t think that’s true, necessarily. I can think of numerous sports where there is quite a lot of motion, yet there is pinpoint control - baseball is a perfect example.



    The question of consistency is probably more about which muscles create the motion than it is about what is moving and how much motion there is. In Ballard’s method motion comes from the large muscles, and I would argue that you can groove consistency more easily with these muscles than with, say, twisting and swinging the arms. With the arms you can get some pretty wild inconsistency with very little motion of the body core.



    One image that Ballard talked about that has always stuck with me is his notion of how to pitch a coin to a wall with best accuracy and consistency. We don’t “feel” the distance with our small muscles. We feel the distance with the big muscles of our legs and shoulders. We don’t stand flat-footed and twist and swing our arms and prevent our core from moving laterally, in order to pitch a coin accurately. We put a little body into it through the use of the large muscles, and this leads to accuracy and consistency of the toss. (I especially like what Ballard says about this, as it applies to pitching and chipping - it is just a small, athletic tossing motion that involves the same large muscles as with the full swing, kinda like pitching a coin.)

    Posted:
  • bluedotbluedot  3556WRX Points: 291Members Posts: 3,556
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    torbill wrote:

    flatnstuck wrote:


    So I guess my question is why does the stance have to be that wide? The lateral motion back and forth is to get each respective hip joint over the knee and ankle so that you can turn and that joint becomes the pivot point of that portion of the swing instead of the spine. That’s pretty brilliant actually. It just seems that you’re introducing a lot of room for error by adding 4-6 inches of lateral motion when you don’t really have to.



    I understand coiling back to to provide power to the blow, but the backhanded slap that JB so often uses to illustrate the motion doesn’t have a two + foot extension with a head on it trying to hit a small ball in the middle of the club face.




    You are suggesting that motion inherently creates inconsistent contact, so that more lateral motion means more inconsistency. I don’t think that’s true, necessarily. I can think of numerous sports where there is quite a lot of motion, yet there is pinpoint control - baseball is a perfect example.



    The question of consistency is probably more about which muscles create the motion than it is about what is moving and how much motion there is. In Ballard’s method motion comes from the large muscles, and I would argue that you can groove consistency more easily with these muscles than with, say, twisting and swinging the arms. With the arms you can get some pretty wild inconsistency with very little motion of the body core.



    One image that Ballard talked about that has always stuck with me is his notion of how to pitch a coin to a wall with best accuracy and consistency. We don’t “feel” the distance with our small muscles. We feel the distance with the big muscles of our legs and shoulders. We don’t stand flat-footed and twist and swing our arms and prevent our core from moving laterally, in order to pitch a coin accurately. We put a little body into it through the use of the large muscles, and this leads to accuracy and consistency of the toss. (I especially like what Ballard says about this, as it applies to pitching and chipping - it is just a small, athletic tossing motion that involves the same large muscles as with the full swing, kinda like pitching a coin.)




    I agree with most of this, but...



    I think you'll have to explain what you mean in the baseball analogy. If you are talking about batting, the key is that a batter STARTS in the coiled, connected position that a Ballard swing is looking for at the top of the backswing. Right foot square or even turned in a bit, left bicep pinned to chest, right elbow up and away from the body in a powerful position. Good hitters don't move off the plate from there; everything goes forward, with the head relatively still thru impact.



    I think lateral motion of the head on the takeaway absolutely does create inconsistent contact; it's just too hard to match the bottom of the swing to the ball if the head is moving away on the backswing. And that sort of movement, of course, is NOT Ballard at all; a weight shift into a coil is a very different thing than a lateral motion or a slide. Head movement after impact, in baseball or golf, is another thing entirely.
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  • AyersjjAyersjj Coast 290WRX Points: 137Members Posts: 290
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    2 back to back US Opens 19 victories moved a bunch but I agree too each his own. Find ur own pivot point from right knee/hip load. Just dont reverse!
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  • sbarksbark  234WRX Points: 105Members Posts: 234
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    Ayersjj wrote:

    flatnstuck wrote:

    Ayersjj wrote:

    flatnstuck wrote:


    So I guess my question is why does the stance have to be that wide? The lateral motion back and forth is to get each respective hip joint over the knee and ankle so that you can turn and that joint becomes the pivot point of that portion of the swing instead of the spine. That’s pretty brilliant actually. It just seems that you’re introducing a lot of room for error by adding 4-6 inches of lateral motion when you don’t really have to.



    I understand coiling back to to provide power to the blow, but the backhanded slap that JB so often uses to illustrate the motion doesn’t have a two + foot extension with a head on it trying to hit a small ball in the middle of the club face.
    I listened to J colbert talk about getting “behind” the shaft. I think ur question brings up the lesser if two evils possible compromise. Going over the wall (right leg) loading the backswing is not what JB teaches. But if u were to move that cart u betterget behind and load yhen fire or its a slap. I was an assistant pro at Valhalla Golf Club back in 80s and a member Bill Mussleman gave me an image that stuck with me. He played with Irwin at Colorado. He won numerous Kentucky Opens so I listened closely.



    He said he tries to open the door and slam it shut with his right arm and side. You would not stand right next to door rather a running start and slam the **** out of it. If we had a contest who could slam it harder the guy that set into his right foot got behind the door for leverage wins.




    Fantastic reply, and thank you for taking the question in the spirit it was in which it was posed. That being curiosity and interest in learning.



    So have you found that shoulder width is the best compromise between ability to get behind the door to slam it and precision of the blow? I can see it especially with the modern driver and it’s large forgiving face. But I worry about hand eye coordination for weekend warrior such as myself.



    I’ve never been “long”, but like many I get considerably longer as my confidence quotient increases increase with success, and hence the questions about lateral motion and accuracy of the strike.



    Another question. I’ve started my backswing with my lower body for some time now, as this seems like it might work well with Ballard’s method. If I were to load up to punch something, or rare back to slam the door in your example, I would naturally think about my arms but probably involuntarily take a step back with my right foot. It seems that starting with the lower body might do the same while helping to keep the club in front of the chest before cooking over the right hip socket.



    Thoughts?




    One of the things JB always told me was Sutton struggled with reverse pivot. Curtis obviously moved more than Sutton. So, u have a choice to make. What will best produce solid contact. 97Speeder or DJ says it best, know ur swing. U become ur best teacher or compromised enemy.



    Sure a perfect triangle and load is nice but there are going to be variances btw all of us. Jimmy wont stray from the fundamental of weight shift, but if u start reversing bc u dont want to move JB will hammer that first. He must have said the same thing to me 4-5 times before my bullhead finally loaded into my right leg. I use to slide instead of coil and could still play at a high level missing Canadian tour and many PGA tour events by one shot sliding. Maybe if I was more athletic I would have not snap hooked those few shots that took away a career by sliding not coiling? Dunno.



    What I do know its simple but hard to do ask Rocco.






    This article and the feel of it on the hip seems to help rotate and load, vrs more of a slide and load

    http://www.golfwrx.com/532898/the-magic-of-the-left-heel/



    From the article



    Jack Nicklaus

    This was directly counter to the way Nicklaus used his feet. In his backswing, his left heel went out towards the target at the very begining of his backswing, rather than inward as advocated by Morrison.



    Nicklaus had discovered, perhaps inadvertently, that the outward motion of his left heel was the secret to engaging his left hip coil at the beginning of the backswing.



    The question then is why was Nicklaus’ footwork different than what Morrison had taught Grout? That is question that will go unanswered but the possible explanation is that Nicklaus naturally developed the footwork on his own and Grout choose to not try and change it.



    A second possibility is that Grout rejected Morrison’s technique and developed his own which he then taught to his young protégé. Whatever the case Nicklaus’ footwork allowed him to develop one of the best pivots in the history of the game.



    Thoughts, and your feels

    ....or just over complicating the whole thing

    Posted:
  • flatnstuckflatnstuck  363WRX Points: 47Members Posts: 363
    Joined:  edited Feb 14, 2019 4:22pm #535
    Ayersjj wrote:


    2 back to back US Opens 19 victories moved a bunch but I agree too each his own. Find ur own pivot point from right knee/hip load. Just dont reverse!




    Well, for many reasons I hesitate to put overemphasis on tour player success and a given metbod’s viability. I would suggest that the average tour player’s hand eye coordination greatly exceeds that of the average weekend warrior. However, can the improvement shown by a pro with a given merhod translate to an amateur? That’s the question. Can an am get 10% better, for example, using a method that makes a pro 10% better?



    I don’t like the baseball comparison given above. The sweet spot is bigger, the target is bigger, and the batter not only gets multiple chances during each at bat, but he can wait until he sees something he likes. In golf it has to be first time, every time using a motion that’s far less reaction than other motion oriented sports.



    Thank you, btw, for the YouTube videos above. I can see what JB meant about the trail side lacking some conviction in the downswing. Funny how it can be obvious if you’re looking for it.



    There’s an old aviation axiom that I think applies to a lot of things in life, because I think we innately know some things will or won’t work given the aesthetic of design or motion. That axiom is “Looks right, flies right”. Strange’s backswing doesn’t look right to me. The downswing of nearly all high level JB student does look right to me. But then again you, speedster, Sutton an others don’t seem to move off the ball as much as Curtis did. I guess, as you say, that I’ll just have to fiddle with it and see if I see consistency suffer or improve based on stance width and relative shift off the ball in my own swing.



    I will say this, fooling with this in front of a mirror I’ve noticed a very satisfying wind and loaded feeling in my back when I take it back in a manner I understand to be correct. It’s a different feeling than I’ve felt, and feels like muscles ready to go instead of a spine twisted to its maximum.
    Posted:
  • torbilltorbill  368WRX Points: 242Members Posts: 368
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    bluedot wrote:

    torbill wrote:

    flatnstuck wrote:


    So I guess my question is why does the stance have to be that wide? The lateral motion back and forth is to get each respective hip joint over the knee and ankle so that you can turn and that joint becomes the pivot point of that portion of the swing instead of the spine. That’s pretty brilliant actually. It just seems that you’re introducing a lot of room for error by adding 4-6 inches of lateral motion when you don’t really have to.



    I understand coiling back to to provide power to the blow, but the backhanded slap that JB so often uses to illustrate the motion doesn’t have a two + foot extension with a head on it trying to hit a small ball in the middle of the club face.




    You are suggesting that motion inherently creates inconsistent contact, so that more lateral motion means more inconsistency. I don’t think that’s true, necessarily. I can think of numerous sports where there is quite a lot of motion, yet there is pinpoint control - baseball is a perfect example.



    The question of consistency is probably more about which muscles create the motion than it is about what is moving and how much motion there is. In Ballard’s method motion comes from the large muscles, and I would argue that you can groove consistency more easily with these muscles than with, say, twisting and swinging the arms. With the arms you can get some pretty wild inconsistency with very little motion of the body core.



    One image that Ballard talked about that has always stuck with me is his notion of how to pitch a coin to a wall with best accuracy and consistency. We don’t “feel” the distance with our small muscles. We feel the distance with the big muscles of our legs and shoulders. We don’t stand flat-footed and twist and swing our arms and prevent our core from moving laterally, in order to pitch a coin accurately. We put a little body into it through the use of the large muscles, and this leads to accuracy and consistency of the toss. (I especially like what Ballard says about this, as it applies to pitching and chipping - it is just a small, athletic tossing motion that involves the same large muscles as with the full swing, kinda like pitching a coin.)




    I agree with most of this, but...



    I think you'll have to explain what you mean in the baseball analogy. If you are talking about batting, the key is that a batter STARTS in the coiled, connected position that a Ballard swing is looking for at the top of the backswing. Right foot square or even turned in a bit, left bicep pinned to chest, right elbow up and away from the body in a powerful position. Good hitters don't move off the plate from there; everything goes forward, with the head relatively still thru impact.



    I think lateral motion of the head on the takeaway absolutely does create inconsistent contact; it's just too hard to match the bottom of the swing to the ball if the head is moving away on the backswing. And that sort of movement, of course, is NOT Ballard at all; a weight shift into a coil is a very different thing than a lateral motion or a slide. Head movement after impact, in baseball or golf, is another thing entirely.




    When I said pinpoint control in baseball I was actually thinking about throwing, pitching in particular - load and stride - where there is lateral movement in both directions, with pinpoint control, because it is the big muscles that are controlling the movement. I agree with your comments about batters, but I think that it is more about reacting to 100 mph fastballs. If the ball was coming in at a slower speed, where the player had time to load, I don’t see why there would be any difference in consistency, just like I don’t see any inherent difference in a golfer who pre-sets like Stenson and one who shifts back like Mediate.



    I have to disagree with you that lateral motion on the backswing creates inconsistency, so long as it is done in a way that is in line with Ballard’s other principles. My supporting evidence is this: JB has taught this exact width of stance for as long as I have known about him, which is to say at least 35 years. In fact, the reason that I first heard about him is because he was teaching a method that employed a strong weight shift that, in combination with the wide stance, resulted in a noticeable lateral shift away from the target for most players. (And he was being accused by the establishment of teaching a sway, and it was a *huge* controversy!) He teaches a wide stance for all levels of players, from beginners to professionals. I don’t see how it would be possible to account for his track record of success with all levels of players if he were teaching something that results in inconsistent contact. Now he has a bit of a different wrinkle, which is to turn the toe of the back foot toward the target, as speedster notes. But I don’t think that is changes much, in principle, regarding consistent contact, it just makes it less likely that the player overdoes the weight shift and gets a sway.
    Posted:
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:43pm #537
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    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
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  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:43pm #538
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    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:43pm #539
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    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
  • 97speedster97speedster Speedster  669WRX Points: 538Members Posts: 669
    Joined:  edited Jul 15, 2019 9:43pm #540
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    Posted:
    Post edited by 97speedster on
    WITB in 2018
    Driver: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (10.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 6X
    3 Wood: TaylorMade RBZ Tour Stage 2 (14.5 degrees)
    Shaft: Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 7X
    Hybrid: Srixon U85 (18 degrees)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100 
    Irons: TaylorMade P-760 (4-PW)
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2"
    Wedges: TaylorMade Milled Grind (52.12, 58.12), Callaway Mack Daddy 2 64.8
    Shaft: KBS TGI 100  +1/2" in 52 & 58; True Temper Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S-400 in 64
    Putter: Tour Issue Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Lined and Filled 34"
    Grip: Golf Pride Classic Putter Grip
    Golf Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
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  • DonRSDDonRSD South Florida 281WRX Points: 119Members Posts: 281
    Joined:  edited Feb 14, 2019 10:01pm #541
    As far as stance, I can't get the feeling of **** underneath (not sticking out) AND standing straight.

    Any tips or anyone have pics of their stance / back angle? Is it ok to bend form the hips?

    I have a feeling I am trying to get to a "standing upright" stance that its wrong and unbalanced.



    Also.....how close to you guys stand to/from the ball? Pics would help greatly.



    Love that this thread picked up steam....lots and lots of good info in here image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Posted:
    Driver: Titleist TS2
    3 Wood: Titleist TS2
    Hybrids: Titleist 818 H1
    Irons: TaylorMade P790
    Wedges: Vokey
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 (2018)
46

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