Putting with flag in (MERGED)

[davep043]

Is keeping the flag in against the tradition of the game of golf, absolutely not. Does taking the flag out to against the tradition of golf, absolutely.

Are you saying that the tradition is to leave the flag in most or all of the time? I'd say that's not really the way I read the history. Except for a 12 year stretch from 1956 to 1968, there has been a penalty associated with a ball played from the putting green hitting the flagstick. Before there was a definition of "putting green", there was a penalty for any shot played from within 20 yards that struck the flagstick in the hole.

 

Unless I’m mistaken, when golf became a thing, leaving the flag in was the norm. My recollection of what I’ve taken as verified history, and have believed for many years, is that when the game started the flag was always in. The same way a stymie is an original part of the game. If you can give me some links to where I can read about that not being the case, link me. Not saying you’re wrong, but that my understing, over many years, is that the flag was originally in. I could easily be incorrect.

This site has good summaries of the rule changes over the years, as well as copies of the R&A Rules for quite a long time.

http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html

According to them, the first time a flagstick was mentioned was 1875. Most golf in the early ways was done as match play, and the 1875 Rules say that either party may have the flagstick removed. I take this to mean that I can remove the stick prior to YOU putting.

[jmck]

This whole back and forth is a perfect example of why this was a poorly thought out idea.

 

Previously the flag was in when off the green, out when on the green, with occasional exceptions for tending on a long putt or pulling on a short chip. This was how it was for everyone.

 

Now though.....

 

One guy follows the above because that's how it was since he took up the game.

One guy wants the flag always in because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 4' because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 8' because he perceives some advantage to that.

 

That's a foursome that's playing slower than it was last year. Everyone's got their own theories and opinions now, and lord knows there's going to be enough posted on the internet for everyone to justify their way as the right way.

[davep043]

This whole back and forth is a perfect example of why this was a poorly thought out idea.

 

Previously the flag was in when off the green, out when on the green, with occasional exceptions for tending on a long putt or pulling on a short chip. This was how it was for everyone.

 

Now though.....

 

One guy follows the above because that's how it was since he took up the game.

One guy wants the flag always in because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 4' because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 8' because he perceives some advantage to that.

 

That's a foursome that's playing slower than it was last year. Everyone's got their own theories and opinions now, and lord knows there's going to be enough posted on the internet for everyone to justify their way as the right way.

Perhaps you haven't read all of the posts. Many people are reporting quicker playing times. I have said repeatedly that it does not NEED to be slower, as long as players communicate with one another. If I'm pulling the flag for player A, and Player B wants it back in, I can have it back in as soon as ball A stops rolling. No delay required. Of course SOME people will screw it up, but they're likely to be the same players who are screwing up already. It WILL take changing some habits, but humans can adapt, it'll just take a little time.

[smashdn]

Just agree as a group on the first tee.

 

"Hey young dudes, we going to leave the flag stick in all the time or are we going to waste time fiddling with it?"

 

99.3% of the time in golf that will cover it. .7% during a tournament or money match with anal retentive fellows you may have an issue where everybody wants Burger King.

 

ETA - RE Dave's post above. Utmost respect btw. But I am going to have to disagree. In a twosome the flag either needs to stay in or come out. There aren't enough warm bodies on the green to be messing with the flagstick. While player A is putting player B needs to be lining up his own putt and getting ready to go instead of horsing around with the flag. Just my opinion.

[Frankensteins Monster]

Is keeping the flag in against the tradition of the game of golf, absolutely not. Does taking the flag out to against the tradition of golf, absolutely.

Are you saying that the tradition is to leave the flag in most or all of the time? I'd say that's not really the way I read the history. Except for a 12 year stretch from 1956 to 1968, there has been a penalty associated with a ball played from the putting green hitting the flagstick. Before there was a definition of "putting green", there was a penalty for any shot played from within 20 yards that struck the flagstick in the hole.

 

Unless I’m mistaken, when golf became a thing, leaving the flag in was the norm. My recollection of what I’ve taken as verified history, and have believed for many years, is that when the game started the flag was always in. The same way a stymie is an original part of the game. If you can give me some links to where I can read about that not being the case, link me. Not saying you’re wrong, but that my understing, over many years, is that the flag was originally in. I could easily be incorrect.

This site has good summaries of the rule changes over the years, as well as copies of the R&A Rules for quite a long time.

http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html

According to them, the first time a flagstick was mentioned was 1875. Most golf in the early ways was done as match play, and the 1875 Rules say that either party may have the flagstick removed. I take this to mean that I can remove the stick prior to YOU putting.

Thanks for the link, Dave. I’ll check it out.

[MilkyButterCuts]

I don't mind the rule change actually. I believe the advantage is so minimal that it really doesn't matter much. I think it was asinine that you could be penalized for putting with the flag stick in in the first place.

 

Now on the contrary, does it accelerate pace of play? By all means, no.

[jmck]

This whole back and forth is a perfect example of why this was a poorly thought out idea.

 

Previously the flag was in when off the green, out when on the green, with occasional exceptions for tending on a long putt or pulling on a short chip. This was how it was for everyone.

 

Now though.....

 

One guy follows the above because that's how it was since he took up the game.

One guy wants the flag always in because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 4' because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 8' because he perceives some advantage to that.

 

That's a foursome that's playing slower than it was last year. Everyone's got their own theories and opinions now, and lord knows there's going to be enough posted on the internet for everyone to justify their way as the right way.

Perhaps you haven't read all of the posts. Many people are reporting quicker playing times. I have said repeatedly that it does not NEED to be slower, as long as players communicate with one another. If I'm pulling the flag for player A, and Player B wants it back in, I can have it back in as soon as ball A stops rolling. No delay required. Of course SOME people will screw it up, but they're likely to be the same players who are screwing up already. It WILL take changing some habits, but humans can adapt, it'll just take a little time.

 

No, I've read them all, thanks. What you're describing above is not ready golf as whoever is manning the flag is doing something besides getting ready to play, and it is slower than removing the flag once and replacing it once per hole. Payer C is waiting around, flag in hand, while player A completes his routine so he can put the flag back in for player B. The time player C spent waiting for Player A's ball to stop rolling is time player C is not spending getting ready to play. Removing and replacing the flag depending on the whims of four golfers in one group as they putt is slower than removing and replacing it once per group before and after putting. It takes more time to do the same thing over and over again than it does to do it once. That's just science my man.

 

Will this affect your regular foursome on a random Saturday where you all are playing for drinks and laughs after having spent years getting used to each other's proclivities? Almost certainly not. Will it affect me when I'm paired up with three strangers trying to qualify for the US Mid Am and grinding out every shot? Oh you bet it will, especially when extrapolated out over a whole course full of strangers grinding out every shot.

[davep043]

This whole back and forth is a perfect example of why this was a poorly thought out idea.

 

Previously the flag was in when off the green, out when on the green, with occasional exceptions for tending on a long putt or pulling on a short chip. This was how it was for everyone.

 

Now though.....

 

One guy follows the above because that's how it was since he took up the game.

One guy wants the flag always in because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 4' because he perceives some advantage to that.

One guy wants the flag in except from inside of 8' because he perceives some advantage to that.

 

That's a foursome that's playing slower than it was last year. Everyone's got their own theories and opinions now, and lord knows there's going to be enough posted on the internet for everyone to justify their way as the right way.

Perhaps you haven't read all of the posts. Many people are reporting quicker playing times. I have said repeatedly that it does not NEED to be slower, as long as players communicate with one another. If I'm pulling the flag for player A, and Player B wants it back in, I can have it back in as soon as ball A stops rolling. No delay required. Of course SOME people will screw it up, but they're likely to be the same players who are screwing up already. It WILL take changing some habits, but humans can adapt, it'll just take a little time.

 

No, I've read them all, thanks. What you're describing above is not ready golf as whoever is manning the flag is doing something besides getting ready to play, and it is slower than removing the flag once and replacing it once per hole. Payer C is waiting around, flag in hand, while player A completes his routine so he can put the flag back in for player B. The time player C spent waiting for Player A's ball to stop rolling is time player C is not spending getting ready to play. Removing and replacing the flag depending on the whims of four golfers in one group as they putt is slower than removing and replacing it once per group before and after putting. It takes more time to do the same thing over and over again than it does to do it once. That's just science my man.

 

Will this affect your regular foursome on a random Saturday where you all are playing for drinks and laughs after having spent years getting used to each other's proclivities? Almost certainly not. Will it affect me when I'm paired up with three strangers trying to qualify for the US Mid Am and grinding out every shot? Oh you bet it will, especially when extrapolated out over a whole course full of strangers grinding out every shot.

You're looking for problems. C, who should be the guy closest to the hole, can certainly go look at his putt while A is doing his thing. As the ball is rolling, stand up and take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt. If C isn't looking at his putt as I describe, he probably wasn't going to be looking at his putt without the flag in his hand either. C is a bozo, another cause of slow play, no matter what the rules around the flagstick are.This isn't a "science" problem, its a human behavior problem. Once we all learn how to efficiently deal with the flagstick permutations, it should be just fine.

[jmck]

You're looking for problems. C, who should be the guy closest to the hole, can certainly go look at his putt while A is doing his thing. As the ball is rolling, stand up and take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt. If C isn't looking at his putt as I describe, he probably wasn't going to be looking at his putt without the flag in his hand either. C is a bozo, another cause of slow play, no matter what the rules around the flagstick are.This isn't a "science" problem, its a human behavior problem. Once we all learn how to efficiently deal with the flagstick permutations, it should be just fine.

 

Whatever. You're explaining away a bunch of unnecessary (and new as of 2019) motion as unproblematic, and you clearly place more trust in your fellow humans to properly figure things out and do the right thing than I do......while you continue to ignore what might happen when they act like a bunch of self absorbed ignoramuses, which surely isn't part of human nature at all.

 

And, fact remains, as clearly indicated in your ABC example above despite your insistence to the contrary, that the same motion repeated 2-4 times takes more time and effort than the same motion done once. Read your post again. You're literally describing something taking more time than it did under the old rules. "Take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt." That all takes time, whereas under the old rules the flagstick would've been sitting untouched on the side of the green throughout player C's little dance.

 

Not worth fighting over, but this whole discussion is example A1 of the USGA not thinking through unintended consequences. Again.

[davep043]

You're looking for problems. C, who should be the guy closest to the hole, can certainly go look at his putt while A is doing his thing. As the ball is rolling, stand up and take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt. If C isn't looking at his putt as I describe, he probably wasn't going to be looking at his putt without the flag in his hand either. C is a bozo, another cause of slow play, no matter what the rules around the flagstick are.This isn't a "science" problem, its a human behavior problem. Once we all learn how to efficiently deal with the flagstick permutations, it should be just fine.

 

Whatever. You're explaining away a bunch of unnecessary (and new as of 2019) motion as unproblematic, and you clearly place more trust in your fellow humans to properly figure things out and do the right thing than I do......while you continue to ignore what might happen when they act like a bunch of self absorbed ignoramuses, which surely isn't part of human nature at all.

 

And, fact remains, as clearly indicated in your ABC example above despite your insistence to the contrary, that the same motion repeated 2-4 times takes more time and effort than the same motion done once. Read your post again. You're literally describing something taking more time than it did under the old rules. "Take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt." That all takes time, whereas under the old rules the flagstick would've been sitting untouched on the side of the green throughout player C's little dance.

 

Not worth fighting over, but this whole discussion is example A1 of the USGA not thinking through unintended consequences. Again.

I give up, you're right. Instead of sitting on his backside, C is required to walk a few extra steps, which will take time away from his "sitting-on-his-a**-time". Of course, A and B are going about their business exactly as before, not waiting for a thing. But yeah, it takes the player handling the flag a few seconds that he could have spent doing something productive, like watching A and B putt..

But I'll say it yet again, people WILL screw up. People WILL take a while to learn to deal with the flagstick efficiently. ALL change takes some time and effort to adjust to. But its not the calamity that many people claim it will be. I'll say this again as well, I'm not a big proponent of the change, I think it has the potential to change scores by some small amount. But the logistics of it just aren't as daunting to me as they are to you. And for better or for worse, the rule is the rule now, we're all going to be best off if we figure out how to deal with it effectively.

[jmck]

You're looking for problems. C, who should be the guy closest to the hole, can certainly go look at his putt while A is doing his thing. As the ball is rolling, stand up and take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt. If C isn't looking at his putt as I describe, he probably wasn't going to be looking at his putt without the flag in his hand either. C is a bozo, another cause of slow play, no matter what the rules around the flagstick are.This isn't a "science" problem, its a human behavior problem. Once we all learn how to efficiently deal with the flagstick permutations, it should be just fine.

 

Whatever. You're explaining away a bunch of unnecessary (and new as of 2019) motion as unproblematic, and you clearly place more trust in your fellow humans to properly figure things out and do the right thing than I do......while you continue to ignore what might happen when they act like a bunch of self absorbed ignoramuses, which surely isn't part of human nature at all.

 

And, fact remains, as clearly indicated in your ABC example above despite your insistence to the contrary, that the same motion repeated 2-4 times takes more time and effort than the same motion done once. Read your post again. You're literally describing something taking more time than it did under the old rules. "Take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt." That all takes time, whereas under the old rules the flagstick would've been sitting untouched on the side of the green throughout player C's little dance.

 

Not worth fighting over, but this whole discussion is example A1 of the USGA not thinking through unintended consequences. Again.

I give up, you're right. Instead of sitting on his backside, C is required to walk a few extra steps, which will take time away from his "sitting-on-his-a**-time". Of course, A and B are going about their business exactly as before, not waiting for a thing. But yeah, it takes the player handling the flag a few seconds that he could have spent doing something productive, like watching A and B putt..

But I'll say it yet again, people WILL screw up. People WILL take a while to learn to deal with the flagstick efficiently. ALL change takes some time and effort to adjust to. But its not the calamity that many people claim it will be. I'll say this again as well, I'm not a big proponent of the change, I think it has the potential to change scores by some small amount. But the logistics of it just aren't as daunting to me as they are to you. And for better or for worse, the rule is the rule now, we're all going to be best off if we figure out how to deal with it effectively.

 

See, that's the thing that you don't get when you start talking about "a few seconds." This thing that you're fine with, this here: "take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt." Let's put a price on that. Five seconds? Ten seconds? Let's assume it happens in every group, on every hole. Some groups it doesn't happen at all (0 seconds lost), some are particularly eggregious offenders (15-20 seconds lost), so we'll say 5-10 seconds per hole is fair. Doesn't sound like much, right?

 

Your local daily fee course.....when they're cranking on a beautiful Saturday they're doing ~175 rounds a day. That's about 44 foursomes, playing 3,150 holes, with 10 minutes between tee times over the course of about 7 hours and 20 minutes worth of tee times on 12 hours worth of daylight. An extra five seconds per hole adds a minute and a half per foursome per round. At ten seconds a hole that obviously doubles to three minutes. Again, doesn't sound like much, but by the time you get to the last tee time of the day that's made a difference, both in the time it takes a customer to play a round, and the amount of revenue a course can squeeze out of a nice Saturday. If every one of the first 43 foursomes is 1.5-3 minutes slower per round the 44th group isn't happening.

 

If you're running a warm weather destination course that's 100% booked 40 Saturdays per year at $100/head, the USGA just cost you 4*40*100 = $16,000 in revenue because each group takes an extra 5-10 seconds per hole and you can do one less tee time per Saturday. To you it's "a few seconds," to me it's $1,333 a month.

 

Are there a million other things that can waste 5-10 seconds per hole per round? Sure, of course there are. But most of them aren't the USGA's fault. But hey, feel free to point me to a post I missed an anecdote about this rule change not slowing down your regular Tuesday evening scramble or whatever.

[davep043]

 

I give up, you're right. Instead of sitting on his backside, C is required to walk a few extra steps, which will take time away from his "sitting-on-his-a**-time". Of course, A and B are going about their business exactly as before, not waiting for a thing. But yeah, it takes the player handling the flag a few seconds that he could have spent doing something productive, like watching A and B putt..

See, that's the thing that you don't get when you start talking about "a few seconds." This thing that you're fine with, this here: "take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt." Let's put a price on that. Five seconds? Ten seconds?

Lets go back and read what I've written every time. Players will learn to handle the flag while the "further" players are going about their business, so there should be zero impact on timing. In our example, player C should be moving to replace the flag while A's putt is still rolling, and the flag will be in well before B is ready to putt. There is ZERO delay if done correctly. And if it happens this way on every hole, for 40 groups, the time lost is STILL ZERO. the cost to the resort destination is still ZERO.

 

If its your position that golfers can't adapt and learn new procedures, or will choose not to adapt, then that becomes the basis of our disagreement, and I'm done with you. I believe they can and will.

[smashdn]

What you're describing above is not ready golf as whoever is manning the flag is doing something besides getting ready to play, and it is slower than removing the flag once and replacing it once per hole.

 

You described what I was attempting poorly to illustrate. If the flag is coming out and going back in it takes time. With a foursome I think you may have someone idle to do it. With two you do not.

 

The whole mess of "green rituals" take long enough. (Messing with putter headcovers, taking off gloves, marking balls, cleaning balls, replacing and lining up, missing putts, raking putts, swearing, picking up wedges, etc) Speed that mess up.

 

I've thought about putting with my clubs still on my back before.

[jmck]

I give up, you're right. Instead of sitting on his backside, C is required to walk a few extra steps, which will take time away from his "sitting-on-his-a**-time". Of course, A and B are going about their business exactly as before, not waiting for a thing. But yeah, it takes the player handling the flag a few seconds that he could have spent doing something productive, like watching A and B putt..

See, that's the thing that you don't get when you start talking about "a few seconds." This thing that you're fine with, this here: "take a couple steps, put the flag in, and go back to reading the putt." Let's put a price on that. Five seconds? Ten seconds?

Lets go back and read what I've written every time. Players will learn to handle the flag while the "further" players are going about their business, so there should be zero impact on timing. In our example, player C should be moving to replace the flag while A's putt is still rolling, and the flag will be in well before B is ready to putt. There is ZERO delay if done correctly. And if it happens this way on every hole, for 40 groups, the time lost is STILL ZERO. the cost to the resort destination is still ZERO.

 

If its your position that golfers can't adapt and learn new procedures, or will choose not to adapt, then that becomes the basis of our disagreement, and I'm done with you. I believe they can and will.

 

You are literally describing something that takes time, then insisting that it takes no time. Or that it will take no time after golfers adapt to it, which takes...guess what......TIME!

[djmohab2]

It's such a complete load of s***. People that couldn't putt to save their lives (Adam Scott, looking at you) leave the flag in now and get their nice little backboard and it helps them read putts. Meanwhile, for players like me that can only move the ball 260 but can putt lights out get disadvantaged by having these guys get an advantage from the rules. Where's our rule where we can foot wedge it another 40 yards down the fairway because we can't hit it 300?

[davep043]

It's such a complete load of s***. People that couldn't putt to save their lives (Adam Scott, looking at you) leave the flag in now and get their nice little backboard and it helps them read putts. Meanwhile, for players like me that can only move the ball 260 but can putt lights out get disadvantaged by having these guys get an advantage from the rules. Where's our rule where we can foot wedge it another 40 yards down the fairway because we can't hit it 300?

Couldn't they read the putt with the flag in all along? Couldn't they even get completely set up with the flag tended? I don't see that as a change of any kind as far as reading a putt or getting set up in the proper alignment. I agree that it generally offers an advantage if you can actually hit the proper line, and hit the flagstick, but most of us don't do that very often, certainly not from outside 10 feet or so.

[wcbjr]

It's such a complete load of s***. People that couldn't putt to save their lives (Adam Scott, looking at you) leave the flag in now and get their nice little backboard and it helps them read putts. Meanwhile, for players like me that can only move the ball 260 but can putt lights out get disadvantaged by having these guys get an advantage from the rules. Where's our rule where we can foot wedge it another 40 yards down the fairway because we can't hit it 300?

 

That's the reason there are handicaps. Unless you are in a scratch tournament, then it doesn't matter anyways.

[gioreeko]

It's such a complete load of s***. People that couldn't putt to save their lives (Adam Scott, looking at you) leave the flag in now and get their nice little backboard and it helps them read putts. Meanwhile, for players like me that can only move the ball 260 but can putt lights out get disadvantaged by having these guys get an advantage from the rules. Where's our rule where we can foot wedge it another 40 yards down the fairway because we can't hit it 300?

 

Wrong on just about every one of your points. No golfer is good enough to hit the pin every time, and if you think they'll add pace to a putt for some reason to use the stick as a "backboard" you're delusional. Watch pro golfers miss the hole from 3 feet and tell me you think they're good enough to hit a stick 1/4 thick.

[gioreeko]

Another weekend of watching pro golfers lipping out from 3 feet, knowing that the flagstick would've knocked most of those in makes me just shake my head. With so much money on the line, you think they'd keep up with the studies and practice with the stick in if they aren't used to the look of it.

[Bingo1976]

Another weekend of watching pro golfers lipping out from 3 feet, knowing that the flagstick would've knocked most of those in makes me just shake my head. With so much money on the line, you think they'd keep up with the studies and practice with the stick in if they aren't used to the look of it.

 

If you are hitting the lip, I would expect a flag stick to push the ball out. I am sure some science has been done, but in my opinion, a flag stick will only really help a putt that is dead center but over pace. I suspect it may help hold a lipped uphill putt, but that is my supposition only.

[larciel]

Another weekend of watching pro golfers lipping out from 3 feet, knowing that the flagstick would've knocked most of those in makes me just shake my head. With so much money on the line, you think they'd keep up with the studies and practice with the stick in if they aren't used to the look of it.

 

If you are hitting the lip, I would expect a flag stick to push the ball out. I am sure some science has been done, but in my opinion, a flag stick will only really help a putt that is dead center but over pace. I suspect it may help hold a lipped uphill putt, but that is my supposition only.

 

the 270 degree ones will skid the flagstick and possibly slow the ball so that it falls down.

[davep043]

Another weekend of watching pro golfers lipping out from 3 feet, knowing that the flagstick would've knocked most of those in makes me just shake my head. With so much money on the line, you think they'd keep up with the studies and practice with the stick in if they aren't used to the look of it.

 

If you are hitting the lip, I would expect a flag stick to push the ball out. I am sure some science has been done, but in my opinion, a flag stick will only really help a putt that is dead center but over pace. I suspect it may help hold a lipped uphill putt, but that is my supposition only.

 

the 270 degree ones will skid the flagstick and possibly slow the ball so that it falls down.

I think this is probably right. A ball that hits the flagstick will slow down, as long as the stick is relatively still. Slower ball means it spends more time over the hole, more time that its moving down, so more likely to stay in the hole. After the Molinari study, it seems that there are certain combinations of speed and location where the pin will keep the ball out, but I believe that more often the pin will improve the outcome.

[King_Slender]

I don't see this causing a pace of play issue. What will eventually happen is that everyone who wants to putt with the flag stick in will putt first. until they no longer want it in, then those who want it out will putt. It will cause some putting out of turn, but unless you're playing match play, that's really not an issue - and even then, won't cause a real delay.

[gioreeko]

Another weekend of watching pro golfers lipping out from 3 feet, knowing that the flagstick would've knocked most of those in makes me just shake my head. With so much money on the line, you think they'd keep up with the studies and practice with the stick in if they aren't used to the look of it.

 

If you are hitting the lip, I would expect a flag stick to push the ball out. I am sure some science has been done, but in my opinion, a flag stick will only really help a putt that is dead center but over pace. I suspect it may help hold a lipped uphill putt, but that is my supposition only.

 

Go to the sp y study and look at the results. They tested dead center and lip outs.

[gioreeko]

Another weekend of watching pro golfers lipping out from 3 feet, knowing that the flagstick would've knocked most of those in makes me just shake my head. With so much money on the line, you think they'd keep up with the studies and practice with the stick in if they aren't used to the look of it.

 

If you are hitting the lip, I would expect a flag stick to push the ball out. I am sure some science has been done, but in my opinion, a flag stick will only really help a putt that is dead center but over pace. I suspect it may help hold a lipped uphill putt, but that is my supposition only.

 

Go to the Not allowed because of spam study and look at the results. They tested dead center and lip outs.

[bladehunter]

Just agree as a group on the first tee.

 

"Hey young dudes, we going to leave the flag stick in all the time or are we going to waste time fiddling with it?"

 

99.3% of the time in golf that will cover it. .7% during a tournament or money match with anal retentive fellows you may have an issue where everybody wants Burger King.

 

ETA - RE Dave's post above. Utmost respect btw. But I am going to have to disagree. In a twosome the flag either needs to stay in or come out. There aren't enough warm bodies on the green to be messing with the flagstick. While player A is putting player B needs to be lining up his own putt and getting ready to go instead of horsing around with the flag. Just my opinion.

 

That’s a perfectly biased way to put it. I’d say “ I want it out “ just to spite that remark.

 

One choice has just as much standing as another.

[davep043]

Just agree as a group on the first tee.

 

"Hey young dudes, we going to leave the flag stick in all the time or are we going to waste time fiddling with it?"

 

99.3% of the time in golf that will cover it. .7% during a tournament or money match with anal retentive fellows you may have an issue where everybody wants Burger King.

 

ETA - RE Dave's post above. Utmost respect btw. But I am going to have to disagree. In a twosome the flag either needs to stay in or come out. There aren't enough warm bodies on the green to be messing with the flagstick. While player A is putting player B needs to be lining up his own putt and getting ready to go instead of horsing around with the flag. Just my opinion.

 

That's a perfectly biased way to put it. I'd say " I want it out " just to spite that remark.

 

One choice has just as much standing as another.

Completely agree. And if your choice is different from mine, I'll be happy to handle the flagstick when its my turn. Although @shashdn is right, if there are only two players, I can see the in/out actually causing a little slower play. But I don't think that's a big deal, since twosomes generally move fast anyway. A twosome has plenty of time to do the flagstick in/out thing and still keep a good pace of play.

[Ignatius Reilly]

I'm confused.

 

All the studies say it's either a tie or a slight advantage to leave it in.

 

Yet we're having arguments about pace of play caused by some people wanting it in and others wanting it out.

 

The simplest solution is just leave it in. You get the advantage (if any) and there's no doubt that doing nothing at all with it has to be the quickest. (side benefit is it helps the greens as you don't have lazy players dropping the flag and leaving a small trench)

 

Anyways, as we all know, slow players will be slow regardless.

[bladehunter]

I'm confused.

 

All the studies say it's either a tie or a slight advantage to leave it in.

 

Yet we're having arguments about pace of play caused by some people wanting it in and others wanting it out.

 

The simplest solution is just leave it in. You get the advantage (if any) and there's no doubt that doing nothing at all with it has to be the quickest. (side benefit is it helps the greens as you don't have lazy players dropping the flag and leaving a small trench)

 

Anyways, as we all know, slow players will be slow regardless.

 

Yes. But there’s a few of headcases thay seem to putt horribly With it in. Especially close putts. (5-10 ft). The rules give us a choice. Not an ultimatum to leave it in.

[Ignatius Reilly]

I'm confused.

 

All the studies say it's either a tie or a slight advantage to leave it in.

 

Yet we're having arguments about pace of play caused by some people wanting it in and others wanting it out.

 

The simplest solution is just leave it in. You get the advantage (if any) and there's no doubt that doing nothing at all with it has to be the quickest. (side benefit is it helps the greens as you don't have lazy players dropping the flag and leaving a small trench)

 

Anyways, as we all know, slow players will be slow regardless.

 

Yes. But there's a few of headcases thay seem to putt horribly With it in. Especially close putts. (5-10 ft). The rules give us a choice. Not an ultimatum to leave it in.

 

I may be one of those people.

 

On solo rounds late in the day I often leave it in - BUT the idea that my ball could bounce out off the stick enters my mind and it affects my putt. I read Dave Pelz stats about leaving the flag in while chipping whenever he first published them, a good decade or more ago I think.

 

My strategy for this season is to practice a couple of hundred putts until I get used to it. I suggest others try the same thing.

 

Still freezing up here, so I can't do that for another 6 weeks +/-.