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Spin off of mats vs grass, what is the technical cause?

 clevited ·  
clevitedclevited Don't think you are, know you are.Members  1641WRX Points: 352Posts: 1,641 Platinum Tees
Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2019 in WRX Club Techs #1
For a long time, I have intended to do an experiment to try and figure out exactly what is happening when you hit a golf ball off a mat vs grass. For those that don't know, it tends to be true that off a mat, you will see less spin and higher launch angle. It seems to mimick a flyer lie in my opinion.<br />
<br />
There have been a few common ideas as to why this happens but is there anyone in the "know" as far as what the actual mechanism is?<br />
<br />
These are the ones I have heard, some I am more inclined to believe as plausible than others.<br />
<br />
1) The club tends to dip under the ball because of the squishy mat and the ball catches higher on the face producing less spin and higher launch angle.<br />
<br />
2) The golfer's subconscious changes their swing in anticipation of what is often times a harsher impact with the turf after striking the ball and this causes the strike change that creates less spin.<br />
<br />
3) The turf causes MORE friction with the ball so it slides up the face more and doesn't spin as much as a lower friction grass lie. (This theory I gravitate towards the most).<br />
<br />
4) The turf is soft and doesn't allow the ball to be "compressed" as much as on grass, so it produces a lower spin loftier flight.<br />
<br />
These are the ones I see the most. If you have another common cause you have seen floating around please share. I would love to get to the bottom of this as I have an i door sim I use and this also relates heavily to club fitting so it can effect quite a few people.<br />
<br />
What are you thoughts? Had anyone tested this and know the true reason it happens?<br />
<br />
Edit: I have seen a few tests on the internet regarding this but nobody seems to have come to a real conclusion, they just show that there is indeed a rather large difference at times.
Posted:

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Comments

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25249WRX Points: 1,740Posts: 25,249 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2019 #2
    1) unlikely for a proper strike - remember you should hit the ball first before the mat so the mat shouldn't have any effect on the initial impact location.<br />
    <br />
    2) Always possible but there's more too it than just that<br />
    <br />
    3) Doesn't really fit the physics. the only way it could impact the friction is by slowing down the club - and I think that would also reduce ball speeds.<br />
    <br />
    4) If that would be the case, you'd see a reduction in ball speed as well as the change in spin.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    My theory would be that the mat restricts the downward motion of the head that occurs at impact and that reduces the spin imparted. Think in terms of tennis and the downward motion of the racket needed to get that high back spin 'cut' type shot. It's a lot more subtle a difference between the club and ball in golf, but the general concept is the same. It's even the same type of interaction between face and ball that leads to gear effect - it's just that in this case there is a different source or cause for the motion of the head.
    Posted:
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  • Go_TimeGo_Time Members  2587WRX Points: 316Posts: 2,587 Titanium Tees
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    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats
    Posted:
  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #4
    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is probably it. The ball sits up on mats compared to grass. On mats, a swing that's level at impact will hit high enough on the face for a good strike. On grass you'd have to have a descending strike to get impact on the same spot of the face. <br />
    <br />
    A lot of people do slide through the grass before the ball. Works when dry, but fails when soggy.
    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25249WRX Points: 1,740Posts: 25,249 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #5
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is probably it. The ball sits up on mats compared to grass. On mats, a swing that's level at impact will hit high enough on the face for a good strike. On grass you'd have to have a descending strike to get impact on the same spot of the face. <br />
    <br />
    A lot of people do slide through the grass before the ball. Works when dry, but fails when soggy.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Do you see the same reduction in spin when hitting irons teed up? I haven't but that's just me.
    Posted:
  • Go_TimeGo_Time Members  2587WRX Points: 316Posts: 2,587 Titanium Tees
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    Stuart G. wrote:
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is probably it. The ball sits up on mats compared to grass. On mats, a swing that's level at impact will hit high enough on the face for a good strike. On grass you'd have to have a descending strike to get impact on the same spot of the face. <br />
    <br />
    A lot of people do slide through the grass before the ball. Works when dry, but fails when soggy.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Do you see the same reduction in spin when hitting irons teed up? I haven't but that's just me.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, you can see a good example of this being when Tiger was playing Phil at shadow creek. In the playoff hole Tiger teed his wedge shot up quite high to lower spin and prevent too much zip back.
    Posted:
  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
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    Stuart G. wrote:
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is probably it. The ball sits up on mats compared to grass. On mats, a swing that's level at impact will hit high enough on the face for a good strike. On grass you'd have to have a descending strike to get impact on the same spot of the face. <br />
    <br />
    A lot of people do slide through the grass before the ball. Works when dry, but fails when soggy.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Do you see the same reduction in spin when hitting irons teed up? I haven't but that's just me.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, I think so. I hit it higher and longer off the tee. Then again I am a picker by nature, but I'm trying to change.
    Posted:
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  • Adam CAdam C Members  859WRX Points: 454Handicap: 4Posts: 859 Golden Tee
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    I think it comes from two places. At least with me, hitting off a mat where I know there is a concrete floor sitting under it causes me to shallow everything out. Same way as if I am hitting off hardpan or a cart path.<br />
    <br />
    However I am pretty sure this is the primary reason. The mats are elastic in nature, the ground is not. This means that a club that enters steeply (or even shallow but to a lesser extent) will bounce off the mat as opposed to digging in. This causes the AoA to change and you now have the upward strike that launches high and spins less.<br />
    <br />
    This is one reason why I don't believe that golf fitting off a mat and especially indoors is very useful. Unless of course you play all your golf off mats, indoors.
    Posted:
  • firstbatchfirstbatch Members  1072WRX Points: 170Handicap: 5.0Posts: 1,072 Platinum Tees
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    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats<br />
    <br />
    Yep this<br />
    <br />
    Somewhere on the inter web there was high speed camera study that showed that the club hitting the mat the ball moves up vertically ever so much before impact.
    Posted:
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  • Adam CAdam C Members  859WRX Points: 454Handicap: 4Posts: 859 Golden Tee
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    firstbatch wrote:
    <br />
    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats<br />
    <br />
    Yep this<br />
    <br />
    Somewhere on the inter web there was high speed camera study that showed that the club hitting the mat the ball moves up vertically ever so much before impact.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Does the ball physically move up the face during the time where the face and ball are in contact, or is the ball just striking the the head higher? Trying to find video. Starting to realize I was overly general in my idea on the subject. Also it must be taken into account the makeup of the mat. Are different mat designs better? Are certain mats better for certain swing types? More or less grassy material vs. more or less spongy material?
    Posted:
  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
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    Adam C wrote:
    <br />
    I think it comes from two places. At least with me, hitting off a mat where I know there is a concrete floor sitting under it causes me to shallow everything out. Same way as if I am hitting off hardpan or a cart path.<br />
    <br />
    However I am pretty sure this is the primary reason. The mats are elastic in nature, the ground is not. This means that a club that enters steeply (or even shallow but to a lesser extent) will bounce off the mat as opposed to digging in. This causes the AoA to change and you now have the upward strike that launches high and spins less.<br />
    <br />
    This is one reason why I don't believe that golf fitting off a mat and especially indoors is very useful. Unless of course you play all your golf off mats, indoors.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think I'd have to see a video of the clubhead bouncing off the mat into the ball to believe this. The claim here is that the clubhead has bounced and is moving upwards for the strike. I can't go for this. Mats hold the ball up much more than grass. You can get a strike up on the clubface with a level or descending strike because the mats off little resistance to the clubhead, unless you are digging for concrete.
    Posted:
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2561WRX Points: 1,539Handicap: +1.9Posts: 2,561 ClubWRX
    Joined:  #12
    I think, but have not proven mathematically, that on firm surfaces with little to no grass the leading edge of the clubface contacts the firm surface while the ball is still in contact with the face. On an elastic mat the clubhead, in this situation, would rebound forward and up. Because the downward nature of the strike was terminated early you get less spin (as mentioned above) and the rebound up of the club will increase launch.<br />
    <br />
    Now if you have enough forward lean and shallow AoA this may not happen. However, my guess is that only the fastest swinging, best ball strikers consistently swing this way. Most folks with adequate, but not extreme forward lean (maybe 4 - 6 deg) will see funny spin/launch interactions while hitting balls off a mat. The math is non-trivial and I haven't tried to write it all out. Lots of variation in AoA, shaft lean, vertical CGs, etc... plus dynamic effects of deflection to include. Probably best performed using a 3d CAD model which I don't have the software to build one.
    Posted:
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  • wkuo3wkuo3 RELEASE Members  4370WRX Points: 386Posts: 4,370 Titanium Tees
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    One needs to ask, what will produce the spin rate of golf ball ?<br />
    Is it the loft ? The grooves on the face of the golf club ?<br />
    The angle of attack ? The effective swing speed ?<br />
    which singular element if any, will influence majority of the variables if not all of them to produce spin rate ?<br />
    <br />
    I think the turf interaction with the sole of the iron will dictate most of the variables since the golfer could not produce the same condition of ball striking .
    Posted:
  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #14
    <br />
    I think, but have not proven mathematically, that on firm surfaces with little to no grass the leading edge of the clubface contacts the firm surface while the ball is still in contact with the face. On an elastic mat the clubhead, in this situation, would rebound forward and up. Because the downward nature of the strike was terminated early you get less spin (as mentioned above) and the rebound up of the club will increase launch.<br />
    <br />
    Now if you have enough forward lean and shallow AoA this may not happen. However, my guess is that only the fastest swinging, best ball strikers consistently swing this way. Most folks with adequate, but not extreme forward lean (maybe 4 - 6 deg) will see funny spin/launch interactions while hitting balls off a mat. The math is non-trivial and I haven't tried to write it all out. Lots of variation in AoA, shaft lean, vertical CGs, etc... plus dynamic effects of deflection to include. Probably best performed using a 3d CAD model which I don't have the software to build one.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I'd have to see high speed video of this effect. From my experience quality mats are pretty yielding in the range of the strike and not prone to throw the golfball or clubhead up. Now if you were talking about a hockey slapshot move favored by old time long drivers, then it would be all about the rebound. Kelvin Miyahira had a bunch of very high speed phantom video of different strikes, but not one that shows the phenomenon that you have described.
    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25249WRX Points: 1,740Posts: 25,249 Titanium Tees
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    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Stuart G. wrote:
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    Go_Time wrote:
    <br />
    Generally it's from striking higher on the face when hitting off mats<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    This is probably it. The ball sits up on mats compared to grass. On mats, a swing that's level at impact will hit high enough on the face for a good strike. On grass you'd have to have a descending strike to get impact on the same spot of the face. <br />
    <br />
    A lot of people do slide through the grass before the ball. Works when dry, but fails when soggy.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Do you see the same reduction in spin when hitting irons teed up? I haven't but that's just me.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, you can see a good example of this being when Tiger was playing Phil at shadow creek. In the playoff hole Tiger teed his wedge shot up quite high to lower spin and prevent too much zip back.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    But that's an intentional swing change to get a different results. And while it's true such a change is easier when it's teed up, I'm talking/asking about different spin numbers for the same swing when teed up vs when not.
    Posted:
  • Adam CAdam C Members  859WRX Points: 454Handicap: 4Posts: 859 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #16
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    Adam C wrote:
    <br />
    I think it comes from two places. At least with me, hitting off a mat where I know there is a concrete floor sitting under it causes me to shallow everything out. Same way as if I am hitting off hardpan or a cart path.<br />
    <br />
    However I am pretty sure this is the primary reason. The mats are elastic in nature, the ground is not. This means that a club that enters steeply (or even shallow but to a lesser extent) will bounce off the mat as opposed to digging in. This causes the AoA to change and you now have the upward strike that launches high and spins less.<br />
    <br />
    This is one reason why I don't believe that golf fitting off a mat and especially indoors is very useful. Unless of course you play all your golf off mats, indoors.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I think I'd have to see a video of the clubhead bouncing off the mat into the ball to believe this. The claim here is that the clubhead has bounced and is moving upwards for the strike. I can't go for this. Mats hold the ball up much more than grass. You can get a strike up on the clubface with a level or descending strike because the mats off little resistance to the clubhead, unless you are digging for concrete.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Sorry I misspoke when I said the AoA would be positive. While that could be the case in some instances I was really just trying to say that comparatively the mat strikes will move more towards that. Thereby lessening the downward strike and flattening it closer to 0.
    Posted:
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25249WRX Points: 1,740Posts: 25,249 Titanium Tees
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    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    I'd have to see high speed video of this effect. <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, that would be nice to see really high speed video. Most high speed impact video isn't really fast enough to get enough frames while the ball is in contact to the face. I'd want to see on the order of 10k fps.<br />
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    From my experience quality mats are pretty yielding in the range of the strike and not prone to throw the golfball or clubhead up.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    From what I've seen, the spin reduction is not uniform across all mats, and higher quality mats do not show the same reduction as cheaper mats (more accurate spin numbers is one of Fiberbuilts marketing claims if memory serves).
    Posted:
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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2561WRX Points: 1,539Handicap: +1.9Posts: 2,561 ClubWRX
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    Stuart G. wrote:
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    I'd have to see high speed video of this effect. <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, that would be nice to see really high speed video. Most high speed impact video isn't really fast enough to get enough frames while the ball is in contact to the face. I'd want to see on the order of 10k fps.<br />
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    From my experience quality mats are pretty yielding in the range of the strike and not prone to throw the golfball or clubhead up.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    From what I've seen, the spin reduction is not uniform across all mats, and higher quality mats do not show the same reduction as cheaper mats (more accurate spin numbers is one of Fiberbuilts marketing claims if memory serves).<br />
    <br />
    The closer a mat replicates turf, the more spin numbers will represent what you get on the course (yes, I know; Captain Obvious that). The Fiberbuilts create a mostly permeable grasslike layer above a firm rubber mat if I remember correctly. The resistance to motion feels very similar to what you get with real grass. The club will slow slightly, but won't vary in path until it gets to the firm rubber part. If the permeable grasslike layer is more than 1 - 1.5 cm, the ball is gone before the club impacts the firmer rubber layer.
    Posted:
    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 8° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
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  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
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    Stuart G. wrote:
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    I'd have to see high speed video of this effect. <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Yes, that would be nice to see really high speed video. Most high speed impact video isn't really fast enough to get enough frames while the ball is in contact to the face. I'd want to see on the order of 10k fps.<br />
    <br />
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    From my experience quality mats are pretty yielding in the range of the strike and not prone to throw the golfball or clubhead up.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    From what I've seen, the spin reduction is not uniform across all mats, and higher quality mats do not show the same reduction as cheaper mats (more accurate spin numbers is one of Fiberbuilts marketing claims if memory serves).<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I didn't really think of an old hard driving range mat as the test bed. I could believe that those would bounce the club.
    Posted:
  • JCAGJCAG John Curry Members  2197WRX Points: 171Posts: 2,197 Platinum Tees
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    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?
    Posted:
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2561WRX Points: 1,539Handicap: +1.9Posts: 2,561 ClubWRX
    Joined:  #21
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?
    Posted:
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    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
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  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
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    That Phantom camera video is pretty interesting. Maybe the ones I've seen have been selected for their strangeness, but they do illustrate that the strike is more complicated than most of the models.
    Posted:
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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,193Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2019 #23
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I agree with you thinking. I knew that’s what this topic was getting at too. <br />
    <br />
    I find it hilarious that it’s said this is the case. Take a high vertical cog iron and show me how to get a strike with the cog in the proper place and not have the bottom of the arc be under the ball. Cannot be done. Not from a tight lie like hard pan or a mat. This myth is perpetuated because it is true on fairways that perch the ball up and tees up lies otherwise. Problem is the local muni doesn’t have these fairways. Hit one off the cartpath flush and let me know.truth is it’s lie dependent. And a mat isn’t going to let you catch ball and then hit turf 4-5 inches in front of the ball. Not and get it anything but 2 grooves low.or break a wrist.
    Posted:
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2561WRX Points: 1,539Handicap: +1.9Posts: 2,561 ClubWRX
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    <br />
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I agree with you thinking. I knew that's what this topic was getting at too. <br />
    <br />
    I find it hilarious that it's said this is the case. Take a high vertical cog iron and show me how to get a strike with the cog in the proper place and not have the bottom of the arc be under the ball. Cannot be done. Not from a tight lie like hard pan or a mat. This myth is perpetuated because it is true on fairways that perch the ball up and tees up lies otherwise. Problem is the local muni doesn't have these fairways. Hit one off the cartpath flush and let me know.truth is it's lie dependent. And a mat isn't going to let you catch ball and then hit turf 4-5 inches in front of the ball. Not and get it anything but 2 grooves low.or break a wrist.<br />
    <br />
    I am going to prove whether this is true or not one of these days. Just need to sit down and crank out some code. Approximate answers shouldn't be too hard to produce. Some of the subtler interactions may be beyond a simple program though.
    Posted:
    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 8° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
    3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
    Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
    Sand Wedge: Jim Kronus JK-1 Custom Grind 54/06 w/DG S200
    Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM6 58/04 L Grind w/TT Wedge Flex
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Claw 1.0
    Ball: Snell MTB-X in yellow
  • JCAGJCAG John Curry Members  2197WRX Points: 171Posts: 2,197 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2019 #25
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    The origins of this was from two Englishman that did wrote a book on golf using high speed photography back in the 50's but I forgot their names. Tom Wishon cited their book all the time.<br />
    <br />
    I did find the following though:<br />
    <br />
    https://www.youtube....h?v=wA8si5sjXns
    Posted:
  • CwebbCwebb Members  6028WRX Points: 330Posts: 6,028 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #26
    <br />
    I think, but have not proven mathematically, that on firm surfaces with little to no grass the leading edge of the clubface contacts the firm surface while the ball is still in contact with the face. On an elastic mat the clubhead, in this situation, would rebound forward and up. Because the downward nature of the strike was terminated early you get less spin (as mentioned above) and the rebound up of the club will increase launch.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Well said. It can create an almost "drop kick" effect, even when the face contacts the ball just before the mat. The mat restricts the down and through AOA of the head, while the ball is still on the face.<br />
    <br />
    and of course if we start brushing the mat a fraction before the ball, the effect is magnified
    Posted:
  • clevitedclevited Don't think you are, know you are. Members  1641WRX Points: 352Posts: 1,641 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #27
    Stuart G. wrote:
    <br />
    1) unlikely for a proper strike - remember you should hit the ball first before the mat so the mat shouldn't have any effect on the initial impact location.<br />
    <br />
    2) Always possible but there's more too it than just that<br />
    <br />
    3) Doesn't really fit the physics. the only way it could impact the friction is by slowing down the club - and I think that would also reduce ball speeds.<br />
    <br />
    4) If that would be the case, you'd see a reduction in ball speed as well as the change in spin.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    My theory would be that the mat restricts the downward motion of the head that occurs at impact and that reduces the spin imparted. Think in terms of tennis and the downward motion of the racket needed to get that high back spin 'cut' type shot. It's a lot more subtle a difference between the club and ball in golf, but the general concept is the same. It's even the same type of interaction between face and ball that leads to gear effect - it's just that in this case there is a different source or cause for the motion of the head.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    Regarding the friction idea, I always wanted to make a test rig where i swing a pendulum at a ball sitting on a lie board and then the same thing with a ball sitting on sandpaper being careful to make impact the same each time. I would capture what ends up being a chip with my skytrak and see what happens with these extremes.<br />
    <br />
    My thoughts were that a grippier surface would not allow the ball to gear up the face quite as quickly and instead, slide up a couple grooves first. Essentially it would slide up face more than off grass and less spin would be imparted. I don't see how those physics can't work. I do however think lots of things can be the culprit at any give time but if we were to use a repeatable swing like that of a robot, and a high speed camera, what would we see? Would grass and mat behave the same or would there be an obvious mechanism creating higher launch and lower spin every time?
    Posted:

    WITB
    Driver: Krank Formula X Extreme 6.5*, Aldila RIP Alpha 60X, 44.5"
    3 Wood: Epic Subzero 15.5*, Aldila RIP Alpha 70X, 42.5"
    5 Wood: Epic Subzero 17*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80X, 42"
    Utility: Ping G400 19*, Aldila RIP Alpha HYB 105X, 40"
    4-PW: Mizuno JPX 900 Tour, Aldila RIP Tour 115X, (7 iron 37")
    WEDGES: Callaway Mack Daddy PM Grind: 50*, 54*, 60*, Aldila RIP Tour 115X, 35"
    PUTTER: Custom(my own design)/2016 Scotty Cameron Newport 2
    BALL: Snell MTBX/Nike RZN Platinum

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  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2019 #28
    <br />
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I agree with you thinking. I knew that's what this topic was getting at too. <br />
    <br />
    I find it hilarious that it's said this is the case. Take a high vertical cog iron and show me how to get a strike with the cog in the proper place and not have the bottom of the arc be under the ball. Cannot be done. Not from a tight lie like hard pan or a mat. This myth is perpetuated because it is true on fairways that perch the ball up and tees up lies otherwise. Problem is the local muni doesn't have these fairways. Hit one off the cartpath flush and let me know.truth is it's lie dependent. And a mat isn't going to let you catch ball and then hit turf 4-5 inches in front of the ball. Not and get it anything but 2 grooves low.or break a wrist.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    OK I'll bite. The ball has a diameter of 1.68. Half is .84. An AP2 actual vertical center of gravity is .803. Even a sweeping pick stroke would hit above the AVCOG. For the titleist blade .826. Can still hit above that and not touch the mat.<br />
    <br />
    Edit<br />
    Most mats will hold the ball proud. Grass, not so much.
    Posted:
  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,193Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #29
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    The origins of this was from two Englishman that did wrote a book on golf using high speed photography back in the 50's but I forgot their names. Tom Wishon cited their book all the time.<br />
    <br />
    I did find the following though:<br />
    <br />
    [url=&quot; />
    <br />
    <br />
    That shows turf interruption under the ball. With actual pelt coming after of course. <br />
    <br />
    On a mat this will impart different feel and spin vs that grass.
    Posted:
  • cxxcxx Members  3261WRX Points: 238Posts: 3,261 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #30
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    The origins of this was from two Englishman that did wrote a book on golf using high speed photography back in the 50's but I forgot their names. Tom Wishon cited their book all the time.<br />
    <br />
    I did find the following though:<br />
    <br />
    https://www.youtube....h?v=wA8si5sjXns<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    That shows turf interruption under the ball. With actual pelt coming after of course. <br />
    <br />
    On a mat this will impart different feel and spin vs that grass.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    That must be some northern grass with a pelt like that for a divot. Rory did start touching the grass before the ball. Had to with a third of the ball below the grass line.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • bladehunterbladehunter south carolinaMembers  30917WRX Points: 7,193Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,917 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #31
    cxx wrote:
    <br />
    <br />
    <br />
    JCAG wrote:
    <br />
    In a proper hit iron shot, the ball is long gone from the face of the club before the clubhead hits the ground. Could the difference be the golfer behaving different such as not afraid to hit down on grass but afraid to hit down on mats?<br />
    <br />
    Can you prove that either mathematically or with high speed video?<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I agree with you thinking. I knew that's what this topic was getting at too. <br />
    <br />
    I find it hilarious that it's said this is the case. Take a high vertical cog iron and show me how to get a strike with the cog in the proper place and not have the bottom of the arc be under the ball. Cannot be done. Not from a tight lie like hard pan or a mat. This myth is perpetuated because it is true on fairways that perch the ball up and tees up lies otherwise. Problem is the local muni doesn't have these fairways. Hit one off the cartpath flush and let me know.truth is it's lie dependent. And a mat isn't going to let you catch ball and then hit turf 4-5 inches in front of the ball. Not and get it anything but 2 grooves low.or break a wrist.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    OK I'll bite. The ball has a diameter of 1.68. Half is .84. An AP2 actual vertical center of gravity is .803. Even a sweeping pick stroke would hit above the AVCOG. For the titleist blade .826. Can still hit above that and not touch the mat.<br />
    <br />
    Edit<br />
    Most mats will hold the ball proud. Grass, not so much.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    I said high V cog. The i500 is .940. .... that’s what I’ve been comparing to an MB (681) for months now. It’s amazing the difference. <br />
    <br />
    The two examples you give are mathematically possible. But even then. You have to have such a descending blow that you’re going to bottom out into them mat ( or cart path ) you have to adjust aoa for this. Your brain will do it involuntarily.
    Posted:
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