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Marking your ball on the green - new rules


BKN1964

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Had any one noticed that measure must be taken from the original spot not the marker?

 

"The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths."

 

So it is not marking the mark (ball-marker), which is in effect irrelevant or redundant

This unreferenced material confused me but I subsequently realized it comes from R15. If RBs mean it to be binding on the way a player initially marks a ball, I am more than surprised that 14.1 doesn't say that or reference R15.3. Probably makes it even more important to get guidance on exactly what 14.1 permits and what it does not permit.
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Had any one noticed that measure must be taken from the original spot not the marker?

 

"The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths."

 

So it is not marking the mark (ball-marker), which is in effect irrelevant or redundant

My reading of this is that the ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its (that is, the ball-marker's) original spot."

 

If you are reading that last "its" as meaning the ball's original spot, I object, your honor. The question assumes facts that are not in evidence.

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Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.

 

By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?

 

The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.

15.3c has a heading which only describes a ball-marker interfering or helping. Not a ball.

 

Welcome to our land of the confused.

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I don't think you have answered my question. Rather than a generalised answer can you answer it specifically please.

 

Can a ball to be moved be marked with the toe of a club and a ball-marker be placed at the heel. Then, when the ball is to be replaced, the heel placed next to the ball-marker and the ball replaced at the toe.

If not, why not?

If it in fact is illegal, it's because the ball must be marked "right behind or right next to the ball." The procedure you describe does not do that.

?? 13.1b

b. Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball on Putting Green

 

A ball on the putting green may be lifted and cleaned (see Rule 14.1).

The spot of the ball must be marked before it is lifted and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).

 

Edit-you did not read the next part of 14.1

Before lifting your ball under a Rule requiring it to be replaced on its original spot, you must mark the spot, which means to:

  • Place a ball-marker right behind or right next to your ball, or
  • Hold a club on the ground right behind or right next to your ball.

I read it all, and the highlighted area says you can hold your club to mark the ball, but it doesn't say that marking the position of your club is the equivalent of marking the ball.

 

I'm a bit confused by your comment.

You're confused? Trying being the rest of us. Newby, I believe it was, posted that if it doesn't say you cannot-you can. If it is a valid way to mark your position why is it not a valid way to move your mark?

Hey, don't try to compete with me as to who is more confused. I staked out my ground in post #2!

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I thought this was a point of emphasis in the new rules. But I can't find my info from 2017 that said it. Unless I dreamed it. IDK.

 

I recall it saying the ball has to be marked, with a ball mark, then the mark can be moved. This was done to make it a universal and repeatable procedure. And other players would know instantly if it was done incorrectly.

 

I even recall a thread on it in here. Lots of discussion about marker sizes/shapes/tour issue.

 

It seems nothing came of it in the new rules as they have muddied up the wording and that's why this is a thread.

I will say that this point is something I see when playing. The common timing of moving a mark is when asked. The ball has already been marked and then the player is asked to move one way or the other. I often see a problem when the player is asked to move it BEFORE it has been marked. Very often they will set the putter head down with the toe next to the ball and place the mark at the heel. The issue comes when replacing they place the mark at the toe and the ball in front of that. Then they look at me oddly when I tell them they did it incorrectly. The act of replacing the marker opposite the toe of the putter becomes so ingrained and they do that even when they measured directly from the ball.

 

Perhaps the rules wanted to avoid that?

 

 

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In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.

 

During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....

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In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.

 

During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....

I'd always thought "one or more club-head lengths" was a distance measurement, not a process. That is, if a grip is four putter heads long, moving your mark that distance while using your grip as the measure was just as good as using your putter head four times.

 

And I believe you were looking for the word, "incomprehensible." I never cease to be amazed at your ability to discuss precise rules issues in many languages!

 

I suggest you not lose trust in the RBs, just give them a break for a while and let them sort things out. The changes they stepped up to were an enormous endeavor.

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In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.

 

During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....

I'd always thought "one or more club-head lengths" was a distance measurement, not a process. That is, if a grip is four putter heads long, moving your mark that distance while using your grip as the measure was just as good as using your putter head four times.

 

 

Well, me too, but hasn't many posts before this one described a potential problem with that kind of heathen behaviour..?

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In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.

 

During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....

I'd always thought "one or more club-head lengths" was a distance measurement, not a process. That is, if a grip is four putter heads long, moving your mark that distance while using your grip as the measure was just as good as using your putter head four times.

 

 

Well, me too, but hasn't many posts before this one described a potential problem with that kind of heathen behaviour..?

What was true and what is true may be different. After all we no longer have old Decision 20-1/16 to rely upon.
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In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.

 

During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....

 

See my post #12 re John Jacobs (for those who are too young to remember his teaching on TV - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jacobs_(English_golfer) )

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Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.

 

By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?

 

The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.

15.3c has a heading which only describes a ball-marker interfering or helping. Not a ball.

 

Welcome to our land of the confused.

 

Place the toe of your putter next to the ball and lift the ball. Your putter is the ball marker. Mark its heel and take it away: you have moved the ball-marker out of the way in accordance with 15.3c. and measured a distance from the original spot which is marked.

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Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.

 

By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?

 

The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.

15.3c has a heading which only describes a ball-marker interfering or helping. Not a ball.

 

Welcome to our land of the confused.

 

Place the toe of your putter next to the ball and lift the ball. Your putter is the ball marker. Mark its heel and take it away: you have moved the ball-marker out of the way in accordance with 15.3c. and measured a distance from the original spot which is marked.

 

See Newby’s post #5. He suggests, and the definition of ball-marker seems to support, that a ball-marker must be a small piece of equipment rather than one the size of a club. So while you may hold your club to mark the position of your ball, it’s not technically a ball-marker. Above you are describing marking something that is marking a ball, not moving a ball-marker.

 

Nevertheless, I’d be happy if a clarification come out endorsing your perspective.

 

 

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In year 2018 and before it has been discussed whether measuring with the putter grip instead of 2-3 club head lengths was allowed by the Rules as THE Rule only said 'one or more club head lengths'. I have always found this sort of thinking absolutely ridiculous. Using the grip and a reference point in the near distance (such as a tree) one is faster and much more accurate than taking 2-3 club head lengths.

 

During my years of being a referee nobody has disputed measuring with a grip and that makes perfect sense. I have a very hard time to believe that marking procedures producing an accurate result in a very short time would be against the Rules. Then again, this renewal has produced several incomprehendable (I have no f*****ing clue how that is spelled...) changes thus I am on the edge of losing trust in the RB's altogether....

 

See my post #12 re John Jacobs (for those who are too young to remember his teaching on TV - https://en.wikipedia...(English_golfer) )

 

So... what John Jacobs did way back is true with 2019 Rules, is that it..?

 

C'mon, Newby!

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Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules

 

We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.

 

You are spot on!

 

Then again... if the Rules were very simple and easy to comprehend to all.... this section of WRX would not exist...

 

That would mean that all the people trying to find meaning in their lives by learning the Rules and trying to be able to explain them to others would lose that part of their lives.... and maybe the only reason for them to feel alive.... a tragedy....

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Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules

 

We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.

 

You are spot on!

 

Then again... if the Rules were very simple and easy to comprehend to all.... this section of WRX would not exist...

 

That would mean that all the people trying to find meaning in their lives by learning the Rules and trying to be able to explain them to others would lose that part of their lives.... and maybe the only reason for them to feel alive.... a tragedy....

Fret if you’d like, but an easier solution is to simply mark your ball the way the rules tell you to mark your ball, which is still the same way which was used millions of times last year and hundreds of millions of times in years before.
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What I've learned: 1) I will never move my ball mark again. 2) I thought these new rules would speed things up....instead it seems like paralysis by analysis.

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Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules��

 

We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.

 

You are spot on!

 

Then again... if the Rules were very simple and easy to comprehend to all.... this section of WRX would not exist...

 

That would mean that all the people trying to find meaning in their lives by learning the Rules and trying to be able to explain them to others would lose that part of their lives.... and maybe the only reason for them to feel alive.... a tragedy....

Fret if you’d like, but an easier solution is to simply mark your ball the way the rules tell you to mark your ball, which is still the same way which was used millions of times last year and hundreds of millions of times in years before.

 

Sawgrass, you are constantly using words I have no clue of, but still I would like to remind you of the problem presented in this thread: what is allowed by the Rules and what is not?

 

I mean, what has been done a 100 million times may have been right THEN but is it right NOW ?

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What I've learned: 1) I will never move my ball mark again. 2) I thought these new rules would speed things up....instead it seems like paralysis by analysis.

Careful about your statement #1, Rule 15.3 doesn’t like it.

I'm fortunate to play a bit with an MGA rules official. He keeps me on the straight and narrow LOL! Otherwise, I'd be lost

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Good thing these new rules have so much more clarity than the old rules��

 

We will now proceed to have 20 pages and 300 posts on what the interpretation of the rule is.

 

You are spot on!

 

Then again... if the Rules were very simple and easy to comprehend to all.... this section of WRX would not exist...

 

That would mean that all the people trying to find meaning in their lives by learning the Rules and trying to be able to explain them to others would lose that part of their lives.... and maybe the only reason for them to feel alive.... a tragedy....

Fret if you’d like, but an easier solution is to simply mark your ball the way the rules tell you to mark your ball, which is still the same way which was used millions of times last year and hundreds of millions of times in years before.

 

Sawgrass, you are constantly using words I have no clue of, but still I would like to remind you of the problem presented in this thread: what is allowed by the Rules and what is not?

 

I mean, what has been done a 100 million times may have been right THEN but is it right NOW ?

I was referring to marking your ball without using your putter when I said “hundreds of millions of times.”

 

As to alternatives, if I knew what was still additionally legal, I’d tell you. But I’m waiting for the evil genius BNK 1964 to tell us all.

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Doesn't Rule 15.3c sort this out entirely? I'm at a loss as to what the problem is - but I've only just skimmed through the thread.

 

By marking your ball with the toe of your putter and then marking the heel of your putter - or the butt if you go for the club-length, aren't you doing exactly what it says?

 

The ball-marker must be moved out of the way to a new spot measured from its original spot, such as by using one or more clubhead-lengths.

15.3c has a heading which only describes a ball-marker interfering or helping. Not a ball.

 

Welcome to our land of the confused.

 

Place the toe of your putter next to the ball and lift the ball. Your putter is the ball marker. Mark its heel and take it away: you have moved the ball-marker out of the way in accordance with 15.3c. and measured a distance from the original spot which is marked.

 

See Newby’s post #5. He suggests, and the definition of ball-marker seems to support, that a ball-marker must be a small piece of equipment rather than one the size of a club. So while you may hold your club to mark the position of your ball, it’s not technically a ball-marker. Above you are describing marking something that is marking a ball, not moving a ball-marker.

 

Nevertheless, I’d be happy if a clarification come out endorsing your perspective.

 

Well, it was worth a try!

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I was referring to marking your ball without using your putter when I said “hundreds of millions of times.”

 

As to alternatives, if I knew what was still additionally legal, I’d tell you. But I’m waiting for the evil genius BNK 1964 to tell us all.

 

lol

 

Evil? Sometimes

Genius? Pretty sure I can't claim that status.

 

We're all waiting on the USGA at this point. Anybody have any idea how long they normally take?

 

Last summer I was playing a tournament and this situation came up. I was about to mark and lift my ball, and my opponent says "Would you mark that one to the left?". So I set my putter next to the ball and place my marker at the end of it and he says "You can't do that." I said "Yes you can. You can take it up with the tournament director after we're done." Before the next hole he says "Show me where it says you can do that." I said "No, I know the rules. You show me if you think you can prove it's wrong" When we got back to the clubhouse he asked one of the assistants, who said "No, you can't do that." I told him to pull up the USGA website and I'll show him. About that time the tournament director walked up and asked what was going on. When we explained it, he said "Yes that's legal. Turn in your scorecards."

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I was referring to marking your ball without using your putter when I said “hundreds of millions of times.”

 

As to alternatives, if I knew what was still additionally legal, I’d tell you. But I’m waiting for the evil genius BNK 1964 to tell us all.

 

lol

 

Evil? Sometimes

Genius? Pretty sure I can't claim that status.

 

We're all waiting on the USGA at this point. Anybody have any idea how long they normally take?

 

Last summer I was playing a tournament and this situation came up. I was about to mark and lift my ball, and my opponent says "Would you mark that one to the left?". So I set my putter next to the ball and place my marker at the end of it and he says "You can't do that." I said "Yes you can. You can take it up with the tournament director after we're done." Before the next hole he says "Show me where it says you can do that." I said "No, I know the rules. You show me if you think you can prove it's wrong" When we got back to the clubhouse he asked one of the assistants, who said "No, you can't do that." I told him to pull up the USGA website and I'll show him. About that time the tournament director walked up and asked what was going on. When we explained it, he said "Yes that's legal. Turn in your scorecards."

Random amounts of time. But you may call 7 days a week and get an immediate response.
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I was referring to marking your ball without using your putter when I said “hundreds of millions of times.”

 

As to alternatives, if I knew what was still additionally legal, I’d tell you. But I’m waiting for the evil genius BNK 1964 to tell us all.

 

lol

 

Evil? Sometimes

Genius? Pretty sure I can't claim that status.

 

We're all waiting on the USGA at this point. Anybody have any idea how long they normally take?

 

Last summer I was playing a tournament and this situation came up. I was about to mark and lift my ball, and my opponent says "Would you mark that one to the left?". So I set my putter next to the ball and place my marker at the end of it and he says "You can't do that." I said "Yes you can. You can take it up with the tournament director after we're done." Before the next hole he says "Show me where it says you can do that." I said "No, I know the rules. You show me if you think you can prove it's wrong" When we got back to the clubhouse he asked one of the assistants, who said "No, you can't do that." I told him to pull up the USGA website and I'll show him. About that time the tournament director walked up and asked what was going on. When we explained it, he said "Yes that's legal. Turn in your scorecards."

 

USGA is normally very quick with email responses I’ve sent in the past. Usually 3-5 days in my experience.

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So... what John Jacobs did way back is true with 2019 Rules, is that it..?

 

C'mon, Newby!

 

 

 

Yes, it was never outlawed in the intervening decades and I see no evidence to suggest the RBs have outlawed it since.

 

Neither do I, but justifying a ruling with something someone said decades ago is not what I call credible...

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So... what John Jacobs did way back is true with 2019 Rules, is that it..?

 

C'mon, Newby!

 

 

 

Yes, it was never outlawed in the intervening decades and I see no evidence to suggest the RBs have outlawed it since.

 

Neither do I, but justifying a ruling with something someone said decades ago is not what I call credible...

Including Tufts?

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I thought this was a point of emphasis in the new rules. But I can't find my info from 2017 that said it. Unless I dreamed it. IDK.

 

I recall it saying the ball has to be marked, with a ball mark, then the mark can be moved. This was done to make it a universal and repeatable procedure. And other players would know instantly if it was done incorrectly.

 

I even recall a thread on it in here. Lots of discussion about marker sizes/shapes/tour issue.

 

It seems nothing came of it in the new rules as they have muddied up the wording and that's why this is a thread.

I will say that this point is something I see when playing. The common timing of moving a mark is when asked. The ball has already been marked and then the player is asked to move one way or the other. I often see a problem when the player is asked to move it BEFORE it has been marked. Very often they will set the putter head down with the toe next to the ball and place the mark at the heel. The issue comes when replacing they place the mark at the toe and the ball in front of that. Then they look at me oddly when I tell them they did it incorrectly. The act of replacing the marker opposite the toe of the putter becomes so ingrained and they do that even when they measured directly from the ball.

 

Perhaps the rules wanted to avoid that?

 

 

Edited-clarity

 

That makes sense, it’s probably happens that way more often than not. I know I’d never thought of it. You’re basically placing your ball an inch or so closer.


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    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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