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Stem cell injections hand wrist arthritis


juliette91

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Several years of working on cars, houses, check sorters (IBM 3890s), not to mention growing up on the mean streets of Des Moines have taken a toll on my hands.

 

This year it has really been a pain the hands. Thinking about jumbo grips. I have been researching everything from tumeric to stem cell.

 

Thanks for sharing the information!

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I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?

 

I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.

 

Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.

 

I agree but there are better clinics and better harvesting and better stem cell production dietary advice and many parts of this process where quality can easily be affected. My injections were done under a fluoroscope and with ultrasound after an exam by an interventional radiologist. He pinpointed the areas of inflammation and arthritis and tearing and cysts and addressed them with this stem cell cocktail from autologous fat, bone marrow and a big blood draw for platelet rich plasma spinning. Still, you're correct, the only study (and it's for the knee) that could pass double blind muster is a 6 month study started in October, 2018, not completed yet and likely not published (if at all) for at least a year or so the way publishing lags behind study completion.

 

Based upon my reading of "Cure: A Journey into the Science of Mind Over Body" I'm do believe this will help me. Am I as skeptical as you? Just about but I know that I've done this as well as I could with probably one of the best practitioners around doing it. His anecdotal results are generally pretty good but like any averages there will be some helped a lot and some not at all. For my severe condition he acknowledged no cure but thought 25-50% pain improvement could be achieved. For me it remains my last hope and I think if my hands had about 40% less pain I could hold the club open through a sand shot and take the club away and not give up midway through the takeaway because of its weight making it impossible to hold onto. I do know, having visited 3 different hand surgeons with no consensus diagnosis on where the arthritis causing the pain emanated, that the available surgical solutions would be many months, deform my thumb and hold out only a 70-75% success rate. No doubt if this doesn't work and I cannot golf I'll likely take those odds too. Thanks for weighing in!

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Day 5. My hands are almost to the pain level of pre injection but my shoulders are very painful. The shoulder with the 270 degree labrum tear is especially so and I cannot raise my right arm to parallel with the ground without considerable pain. Have been told that this pain level is or could be quite normal. Since I'm not to take any anti inflammatory potions (I guess that's how the stem cell therapy is supposed to work, by creating inflammation, so you're not supposed to squelch it) I just live with it and it's much more than I thought it would be at this time. It's gotten progressively worse over the past 2 days.

 

Will check in again after Day 10.

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I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?

 

I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.

 

Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.

 

I agree but there are better clinics and better harvesting and better stem cell production dietary advice and many parts of this process where quality can easily be affected. My injections were done under a fluoroscope and with ultrasound after an exam by an interventional radiologist. He pinpointed the areas of inflammation and arthritis and tearing and cysts and addressed them with this stem cell cocktail from autologous fat, bone marrow and a big blood draw for platelet rich plasma spinning. Still, you're correct, the only study (and it's for the knee) that could pass double blind muster is a 6 month study started in October, 2018, not completed yet and likely not published (if at all) for at least a year or so the way publishing lags behind study completion.

 

Based upon my reading of "Cure: A Journey into the Science of Mind Over Body" I'm do believe this will help me. Am I as skeptical as you? Just about but I know that I've done this as well as I could with probably one of the best practitioners around doing it. His anecdotal results are generally pretty good but like any averages there will be some helped a lot and some not at all. For my severe condition he acknowledged no cure but thought 25-50% pain improvement could be achieved. For me it remains my last hope and I think if my hands had about 40% less pain I could hold the club open through a sand shot and take the club away and not give up midway through the takeaway because of its weight making it impossible to hold onto. I do know, having visited 3 different hand surgeons with no consensus diagnosis on where the arthritis causing the pain emanated, that the available surgical solutions would be many months, deform my thumb and hold out only a 70-75% success rate. No doubt if this doesn't work and I cannot golf I'll likely take those odds too. Thanks for weighing in!

 

Let me just add that saying "we don't know" is not the same as "I don't think it will"

 

I really hope it works for you. I want these procedures to be effective, but I must confess the medical fields ignorance in knowing if they do.

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Day 10 post injection. Both hands ever so slightly improving, with 120% of pre-injection pain. Both shoulders have about 130-150% more pain than pre-injection but also ever so slowly improving. Hoping improvement is not linear or I’ll never even get back to pre injection pain levels in the 2 months it’s supposed to take to achieve

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Has anyone here had these injections? Results?

 

will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the hell, had them all injected.

 

Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.

 

2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.

 

Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.

 

Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?

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Has anyone here had these injections? Results?

 

will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the hell, had them all injected.

 

Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.

 

2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.

 

Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.

 

Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?

 

Procedures, unlike drugs, need not go through efficacy trials... They basically just have to prove that they won't kill you right now.

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Has anyone here had these injections? Results?

 

will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the hell, had them all injected.

 

Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.

 

2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.

 

Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.

 

Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?

 

Procedures, unlike drugs, need not go through efficacy trials... They basically just have to prove that they won't kill you right now.

 

YMMV

 

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Try CBD oil. Lots of positive chatter about it. I haven’t tried it yet but I will soon. Supposed to help inflammation.

 

I've tried the topical and while it feels nice for a few seconds I don't notice any lasting effects. Tried the oral drops and I developed intestinal "issues" not sure if it's a coincidence or I just caught a bug...but it is a side effect. Didn't notice any inflammation change either. YMMV

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Has anyone here had these injections? Results?

 

will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the hell, had them all injected.

 

Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.

 

2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.

 

Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.

 

Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?

 

The only double blind study I can find is something that started October 2018 for stem cell injections for knee issues. It's a 6 month study and who knows when those results would be published. Only caution I'd throw your way is that while it's always good to be skeptical, remember that Western medicine has been around for only a little over 200 years and there are other remedies, cures and approaches that work which just because no one's ponied up a couple mil for a double blind study doesn't make them voodoo.

 

Jack Nicklaus had these injections, done by a guy I actually sought out in Munich, Germany. That clinic was shut down by the German government but that guy moved to Jupiter, Fla. and apparently met Nicklaus at Nicklaus' 75th bday party--then later did the stem cell injections that Nicklaus has gone public with praising for his results.

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Day 16. My hands are ever so s l o w l y improving, my wrists about the same slow pace, my shoulders still ache but are improving. I'd say now my hands are about 110-120% of pre injection pain levels and shoulders are about 120% of pre injection pain levels. All signs are s l o w l y improving but it's definitely not a linear chart. I can kind of sleep on my side for longer periods of time (shoulders of course involved) and finally the pain from the harvesting site of the bone marrow (ilium) is going down. That was really uncomfortable for a long time.

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Has anyone here had these injections? Results?

 

will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the hell, had them all injected.

 

Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.

 

2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.

 

Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.

 

Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?

 

The only double blind study I can find is something that started October 2018 for stem cell injections for knee issues. It's a 6 month study and who knows when those results would be published. Only caution I'd throw your way is that while it's always good to be skeptical, remember that Western medicine has been around for only a little over 200 years and there are other remedies, cures and approaches that work which just because no one's ponied up a couple mil for a double blind study doesn't make them voodoo.

 

Jack Nicklaus had these injections, done by a guy I actually sought out in Munich, Germany. That clinic was shut down by the German government but that guy moved to Jupiter, Fla. and apparently met Nicklaus at Nicklaus' 75th bday party--then later did the stem cell injections that Nicklaus has gone public with praising for his results.

 

Western medicine is based on teachings far older than 200 years old.

And really the only things that matter are those that prolong our lives, fighting heart disease, smoking , blood pressure medicines and antibiotics. Sure everything else that happens outside of those things is great. Medicine nowadays is a real heavyweight because think about it, even dumb ignoramuses are living longer .

 

You have diabetes? , we can keep you living.

Killing yourself with smoking? We can keep you living

Your a Fatty? We can keep you living

Eat fast food everyday? We can keep you living

Crazy high blood pressure that can kill a camel? We gotcha !

Have an infection that would have killed anyone 100 year ago? Take a pill

 

And if Chinese medicine is so smart and eastern medicine, why are their cities filled with smog ? In India they throw trash wherever, here, there, everywhere. That’s what I don’t get, people say they went over there and learned teachings , yoga this, acupuncture that. And if I went over there all I would see is filth and smog. Cmon, fix the filth and the smog then I may say your intelligence is improving as a whole.

Is China going to grow new lungs for all the people who are developing lung cancer from all that smog and pollution? Where are your stem cells to fix that.

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I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?

 

I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.

 

Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.

 

What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.

 

Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.

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My procedure was at a Regenexx network clinic and for what it's worth it was the most professional service oriented medical experience I've ever had. If that level of service and professionalism translated to stem cell PRP injection results I'll be ecstatic.

 

I completely understand all who have weighed in here urging caution. That is absolutely necessary as there are many clinics offering what I received without nearly the level of what looked like competence. I'd researched sufficiently to be able to ask questions that raised the eyebrows of the clinic assistants--and the treating doctor--but that took a lot of work and educating to accomplish and I'm sure most people would not do nearly that kind of a deep dive.

 

Thank you all for your comments.

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I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?

 

I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.

 

Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.

 

What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.

 

Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.

 

My thoughts are unchanged.

 

1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.

 

Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).

WITB:
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FW: Ping G25 4 wood Kuro Kage Silver TINI 80s
Utility: 20* King Forged Utility One Length C Taper Lite S
Irons: King Forged One Length 4-PW C Taper Lite S
Wedges: Cleveland 588 RTX 2.0 Black Satin 50, 54, 58
Putter: Custom Directed Force Reno 2.0 48" 80* Lie Side Saddle

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I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?

 

I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.

 

Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.

 

What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.

 

Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.

 

My thoughts are unchanged.

 

1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.

 

Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).

 

I don't work in the medical industry, so perhaps I don't know enough about what makes a credible study. The link I posted was sourced from PubMed.

 

I believe one of the original studies, which most of the avascular necrosis use cases in the US aware modeled after, was done by Dr. Hernigou of France in the 90s or early 2000s. I'll see if I can find that paper.

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I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?

 

I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.

 

Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.

 

What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.

 

Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.

 

My thoughts are unchanged.

 

1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.

 

Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).

 

I don't work in the medical industry, so perhaps I don't know enough about what makes a credible study. The link I posted was sourced from PubMed.

 

I believe one of the original studies, which most of the avascular necrosis use cases in the US aware modeled after, was done by Dr. Hernigou of France in the 90s or early 2000s. I'll see if I can find that paper.

 

That would be considered an extremely low level piece of evidence. No control group, no blinding, hasn't been repeated, etc. Only the 2002 study had positive results 24 out of 189 hips injected. Only for early stage AVN, so not generalizable. A good paper that should spur further research. Nowhere near the level of proof of efficacy.

 

Also impossible to generalize to use for regeneration of cartilage in a synovial joint.

 

I really look forward to seeing how this all shakes out over the coming years... We lost a whole decade of research on this stuff due to stupid politics.

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I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?

 

I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.

 

Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.

 

What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.

 

Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.

 

My thoughts are unchanged.

 

1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.

 

Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).

 

Agree completely. If I hadn't been forced into a corner with surgical options so poor I would never have gone this route. Always thought it had a chance at success, from what I've read and from people who've had similar treatments, but really my decision wasn't influenced by some kind of blind spot to the lack of critical studies, it was influenced by pain and the inability to play golf or other sports because of it.

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As for critical studies, double blind or whatever, since this is now and will for a long time be an elective not insurance covered treatment the number of people trying it will be considerably less than if it were somehow covered. Realize that's a chicken and egg thing because it will never be covered unless it's proven effective---to save insurance companies money--and it could impact many medical industries now built up to treat these conditions in the way that now is "customary." Don't underestimate the power of companies to block innovation if it hurts their bottom line.

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As for critical studies, double blind or whatever, since this is now and will for a long time be an elective not insurance covered treatment the number of people trying it will be considerably less than if it were somehow covered. Realize that's a chicken and egg thing because it will never be covered unless it's proven effective---to save insurance companies money--and it could impact many medical industries now built up to treat these conditions in the way that now is "customary." Don't underestimate the power of companies to block innovation if it hurts their bottom line.

 

Correct - I had actually looked in to going to Regenexx to get my hip avascular necrosis treated and had a phone consult with them where they reviewed my images & proposed treatment. However, between the procedures not being covered at all by insurance, travel to Colorado, and a weeks worth or lodging (their protocol for treating involves a multi-step process of various injections over 5-6 days) I quickly realized I couldn't afford the ~$8-9,000 it would've cost. It's very cost prohibitive to have the procedures done, unless you're selected to participate in a study with funding to cover costs.

 

I have a friend who has/had knee avascular necrosis and her Regenexx procedure got her off crutches, and healed much of her bone. She leads a pretty active lifestyle these days.

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As for critical studies, double blind or whatever, since this is now and will for a long time be an elective not insurance covered treatment the number of people trying it will be considerably less than if it were somehow covered. Realize that's a chicken and egg thing because it will never be covered unless it's proven effective---to save insurance companies money--and it could impact many medical industries now built up to treat these conditions in the way that now is "customary." Don't underestimate the power of companies to block innovation if it hurts their bottom line.

 

Correct - I had actually looked in to going to Regenexx to get my hip avascular necrosis treated and had a phone consult with them where they reviewed my images & proposed treatment. However, between the procedures not being covered at all by insurance, travel to Colorado, and a weeks worth or lodging (their protocol for treating involves a multi-step process of various injections over 5-6 days) I quickly realized I couldn't afford the ~$8-9,000 it would've cost. It's very cost prohibitive to have the procedures done, unless you're selected to participate in a study with funding to cover costs.

 

I have a friend who has/had knee avascular necrosis and her Regenexx procedure got her off crutches, and healed much of her bone. She leads a pretty active lifestyle these days.

 

The money was a big consideration for me and if it has just been my one hand/wrist I would not have done it- but the doc said he’d “harvest enough stem cells (and blood draw-PRP) for multiple injections (4 body parts 16 separate injections) and not charge much more for the extra. So I went for it.

 

You have more reliable (your friend off crutches) information than I had before I took the plunge, and with partial or full knee replacement your only options I can see why you’d consider stem cell treatment. That said, knee replacement has a high degree of success, so I can see why you might balk at the stem cell price ( when full replacements are usually insurance covered)

 

Me, the surgical options for STT arthritis are deforming with less than stellar outcomes.

 

This thread gives me the willies.

 

Me too!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Now 4 full weeks and I haven't yet returned to pre-injection pain levels. Quite frustrating but not going to go down that rabbit hole and blame others or even myself at this point. I did what I did with pretty full knowledge of what to expect with one exception: I was told that my conditions wouldn't worsen. Right now that's not true but there is time and I continue to hope for the best. Starting to put some strain on my shoulders and hands/wrists to move those stem cells around and make some progress.

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Juliette .... it was at least 2-3 months before I noticed any improvements and at least 5-6 months before I could truthfully say I reached/exceeded my goal/expectations and didn't need to take and Advil/Aleve to get through the day. The healing/regeneration process takes time, stay positive and follow your Doc's recommendations on your stretching, exercise, rehab program.

 

Wish you all the best.

 

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I had PRP in my right elbow nearly tore the tendon off the bone. I feel your pain for me the most excruciating experience of my life, my pain was about the 8-9 mark for 2-3 weeks because the tear was so severe. 6 months later injury is better but not completely healed, spoke to surgeon he said we might have to do another procedure to completely fix it up but I don't want to go through that pain again as long as I live. Back playing golf again but still small amount of pain there I just have to be careful with it. Good luck with your injury.

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When you say your surgeon said “another procedure” assume you do not mean stem cell/PRP, but mean surgical.

 

Guess it’d be hard to differentiate the sources of your 2-3 week 8/9 pain levels- from stem cell /PRP injections or the year itself?  Did you initially have surgery and later stem cell therapy?

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