A Real Problem for Golf Courses.

[BNGL]

Now my math may be faulty, but if you gave all the employees a $5 raise, and assume you have 12 employees on the grounds crew. That equals a $2400 labor increase per week. The FICA/FUTA increase would be 15% to round it out, so total business expense increase is $2760/ week. Now, say the course sees approximately 20,000 rounds (this is a northern course), so over 7 months. The increase for labor is $78,000 or so. So, the average cost per round would have to increase about $4.

 

How many players do you think would stop playing golf, or have to limit their golf because of the increase? I really don't know, but in my mind, the increase would be accepted by much of the golfing public and something else would be given up, whether its the 48 oz Mountain Dew or the daily mocha. This is why I don't see it as catastrophic. And I don't know how many people are on the grounds crew, but smaller footprint courses probably have fewer than 12, and the high end larger courses would have more... but as the article above states, the high end course client doesn't care anyway.

 

BNGL, am I way off here?

 

I enjoyed reading that article I don’t necessarily agree with all of it. Because tight economies affect everyone, it’s just different. Because high end do care, I’m at one of them now and this issue came up when I posted. I see a parallel to my first post so hang in there.

 

We held our ladies member guest and it was the biggest golfing event in the clubs history, men’s or women’s. Double shotgun (8 am and 1 pm) with separate prizes for each tournament. Golf shop made bank, we did a quality job getting the corse ready members were pleased with everything except the cost. Which had risen to 800. I remember sitting in the meeting and having the main complaint be the cost, not realizing the cost it took to go the extra yard to make the event better and improve the little things. It adds up relatively quickly, but with this the membership and guests saw an improved product.

 

With a mandatory pay increase that may get passed onto the consumer, you’re not going to see an improvement in Course conditions or service etc. I think you’ll actually see a decrease as courses pinch the purse for extras such as bunker renovations, new irrigation, new carts etc. at least in the short term. Some clubs will figure it out sooner than others and thrive, but there will be some that simply cannot keep up.

 

I guess my whole theory is that if golfers see a price increase, but don’t see improved conditions or product they’ll stop frequenting that particular course and buck up and pay the cost at a course they know to be nicer but was always more expensive. If that makes sense.

[Petethreeput]

Now my math may be faulty, but if you gave all the employees a $5 raise, and assume you have 12 employees on the grounds crew. That equals a $2400 labor increase per week. The FICA/FUTA increase would be 15% to round it out, so total business expense increase is $2760/ week. Now, say the course sees approximately 20,000 rounds (this is a northern course), so over 7 months. The increase for labor is $78,000 or so. So, the average cost per round would have to increase about $4.

 

How many players do you think would stop playing golf, or have to limit their golf because of the increase? I really don't know, but in my mind, the increase would be accepted by much of the golfing public and something else would be given up, whether its the 48 oz Mountain Dew or the daily mocha. This is why I don't see it as catastrophic. And I don't know how many people are on the grounds crew, but smaller footprint courses probably have fewer than 12, and the high end larger courses would have more... but as the article above states, the high end course client doesn't care anyway.

 

BNGL, am I way off here?

 

I enjoyed reading that article I don’t necessarily agree with all of it. Because tight economies affect everyone, it’s just different. Because high end do care, I’m at one of them now and this issue came up when I posted. I see a parallel to my first post so hang in there.

 

We held our ladies member guest and it was the biggest golfing event in the clubs history, men’s or women’s. Double shotgun (8 am and 1 pm) with separate prizes for each tournament. Golf shop made bank, we did a quality job getting the corse ready members were pleased with everything except the cost. Which had risen to 800. I remember sitting in the meeting and having the main complaint be the cost, not realizing the cost it took to go the extra yard to make the event better and improve the little things. It adds up relatively quickly, but with this the membership and guests saw an improved product.

 

With a mandatory pay increase that may get passed onto the consumer, you’re not going to see an improvement in Course conditions or service etc. I think you’ll actually see a decrease as courses pinch the purse for extras such as bunker renovations, new irrigation, new carts etc. at least in the short term. Some clubs will figure it out sooner than others and thrive, but there will be some that simply cannot keep up.

 

I guess my whole theory is that if golfers see a price increase, but don’t see improved conditions or product they’ll stop frequenting that particular course and buck up and pay the cost at a course they know to be nicer but was always more expensive. If that makes sense.

 

That makes perfect sense. My original thought was, bc everyone would know costs are rising and you may be able to shoehorn an extra 1 or 2 workers who are slowly being phased out as all costs rise but the greens fees aren’t. Which may translate into a better product.

 

Thank you for taking the time to help me understand. I appreciate it.

[augustgolf]

I'll answer for myself:

 

In most, but not all, of the courses I've been involved at in the past 47 years, raising greens fees and/or cart fees by even a dollar may not have caused many to quit playing - but did create a definite increase in theft of range balls, coffee not being paid for, etc.

 

The entitlement some golfers feel is unbelieveable - while I appreciate their passion, I really don't like the constant whining and crying about how they can't afford to play golf.

 

This is part of the problem I have seen for so many years. Surely, golfers realize that costs of maintaining a course have risen at a rate far exceeding the costs of price increases to play...

 

But, man - do they like to biotch!

 

Will soon be going through this exact same scenario at another facility - I'll keep you informed as to what and how things are happening.

[chris975d]

 

With a mandatory pay increase that may get passed onto the consumer, you’re not going to see an improvement in Course conditions or service etc. I think you’ll actually see a decrease as courses pinch the purse for extras such as bunker renovations, new irrigation, new carts etc. at least in the short term. Some clubs will figure it out sooner than others and thrive, but there will be some that simply cannot keep up.

 

I guess my whole theory is that if golfers see a price increase, but don’t see improved conditions or product they’ll stop frequenting that particular course and buck up and pay the cost at a course they know to be nicer but was always more expensive. If that makes sense.

 

This last part is the biggest difficulty in raising prices to the golfer to offset rising operational costs. Golfers (maybe especially at my level...daily fee golf) do NOT like to pay more for the "same" product. It's why we've (daily fee golf industry) not seen an increase in the price of a round of golf relative to the increases in the costs to produce said round. It's so hard to convince ownership to raise the price, when golfers WILL vocally rebel/voice displeasure with it, and often times, even just out of pure spite, go somewhere else that ends up costing them more money. I have examples of this I could share.

 

I'll answer for myself:

 

In most, but not all, of the courses I've been involved at in the past 47 years, raising greens fees and/or cart fees by even a dollar may not have caused many to quit playing - but did create a definite increase in theft of range balls, coffee not being paid for, etc.

 

The entitlement some golfers feel is unbelieveable - while I appreciate their passion, I really don't like the constant whining and crying about how they can't afford to play golf.

 

This is part of the problem I have seen for so many years. Surely, golfers realize that costs of maintaining a course have risen at a rate far exceeding the costs of price increases to play...

 

But, man - do they like to biotch!

 

Will soon be going through this exact same scenario at another facility - I'll keep you informed as to what and how things are happening.

 

You put it in much more direct terms than I would have, but...lol...you are correct. The vast majority of golfers are hyper sensitive to price, and love to voice their displeasure when anything increases in cost. Sometimes you'd think I've insulted their children when I go up on soda prices a quarter every 5-6 years or so (when the cost of said soda has increased far more than that for me in the same time). I have been trying and trying with the various owners I've worked for over the years to have a nominal fee increase every year...say $1-$2 or so...just to help condition the customer that prices have to increase just like everything else. They don't seem to be nearly as bothered when the cost to eat out goes up, or car insurance goes up, or fuel prices or anything else goes up, so they (the customer) have to understand that our costs to produce golf go up. And one mistake I think we make in the industry is we try to keep prices down as long as possible, until we've squeezed margins so thin that we have to have a big correction in prices. We then raise rates $5-$10 or more per round to "reset" things, when we haven't had an increase in 8 years, often longer (I'm at the same rate I was 15 years ago, and most courses around here are as well). That's a shock to the customer, and gets a lot of pushback, when if it was done $1 a year, every year, it would barely be noticeable.

 

But yes, golfers are super vocal about any price change at all. It's often a head scratcher, because golf as a whole is a very expensive hobby.

[BNGL]

 

With a mandatory pay increase that may get passed onto the consumer, you’re not going to see an improvement in Course conditions or service etc. I think you’ll actually see a decrease as courses pinch the purse for extras such as bunker renovations, new irrigation, new carts etc. at least in the short term. Some clubs will figure it out sooner than others and thrive, but there will be some that simply cannot keep up.

 

I guess my whole theory is that if golfers see a price increase, but don’t see improved conditions or product they’ll stop frequenting that particular course and buck up and pay the cost at a course they know to be nicer but was always more expensive. If that makes sense.

 

This last part is the biggest difficulty in raising prices to the golfer to offset rising operational costs. Golfers (maybe especially at my level...daily fee golf) do NOT like to pay more for the "same" product. It's why we've (daily fee golf industry) not seen an increase in the price of a round of golf relative to the increases in the costs to produce said round. It's so hard to convince ownership to raise the price, when golfers WILL vocally rebel/voice displeasure with it, and often times, even just out of pure spite, go somewhere else that ends up costing them more money. I have examples of this I could share.

 

I'll answer for myself:

 

In most, but not all, of the courses I've been involved at in the past 47 years, raising greens fees and/or cart fees by even a dollar may not have caused many to quit playing - but did create a definite increase in theft of range balls, coffee not being paid for, etc.

 

The entitlement some golfers feel is unbelieveable - while I appreciate their passion, I really don't like the constant whining and crying about how they can't afford to play golf.

 

This is part of the problem I have seen for so many years. Surely, golfers realize that costs of maintaining a course have risen at a rate far exceeding the costs of price increases to play...

 

But, man - do they like to biotch!

 

Will soon be going through this exact same scenario at another facility - I'll keep you informed as to what and how things are happening.

 

You put it in much more direct terms than I would have, but...lol...you are correct. The vast majority of golfers are hyper sensitive to price, and love to voice their displeasure when anything increases in cost. Sometimes you'd think I've insulted their children when I go up on soda prices a quarter every 5-6 years or so (when the cost of said soda has increased far more than that for me in the same time). I have been trying and trying with the various owners I've worked for over the years to have a nominal fee increase every year...say $1-$2 or so...just to help condition the customer that prices have to increase just like everything else. They don't seem to be nearly as bothered when the cost to eat out goes up, or car insurance goes up, or fuel prices or anything else goes up, so they (the customer) have to understand that our costs to produce golf go up. And one mistake I think we make in the industry is we try to keep prices down as long as possible, until we've squeezed margins so thin that we have to have a big correction in prices. We then raise rates $5-$10 or more per round to "reset" things, when we haven't had an increase in 8 years, often longer (I'm at the same rate I was 15 years ago, and most courses around here are as well). That's a shock to the customer, and gets a lot of pushback, when if it was done $1 a year, every year, it would barely be noticeable.

 

But yes, golfers are super vocal about any price change at all. It's often a head scratcher, because golf as a whole is a very expensive hobby.

 

In the words of Tony Dannunzio, “I ain’t paying .50 cents for no coke!â€

[jli2636]

 

With a mandatory pay increase that may get passed onto the consumer, you’re not going to see an improvement in Course conditions or service etc. I think you’ll actually see a decrease as courses pinch the purse for extras such as bunker renovations, new irrigation, new carts etc. at least in the short term. Some clubs will figure it out sooner than others and thrive, but there will be some that simply cannot keep up.

 

My home course has actually started filling in bunkers with sod. My guess is it’s to help with maintenance costs while at the same time making the course “easier”. Personally I feel like they are neutering the golf course, but I get it from a maintenance perspective

[mallrat]

Now my math may be faulty, but if you gave all the employees a $5 raise, and assume you have 12 employees on the grounds crew. That equals a $2400 labor increase per week. The FICA/FUTA increase would be 15% to round it out, so total business expense increase is $2760/ week. Now, say the course sees approximately 20,000 rounds (this is a northern course), so over 7 months. The increase for labor is $78,000 or so. So, the average cost per round would have to increase about $4.

 

How many players do you think would stop playing golf, or have to limit their golf because of the increase? I really don't know, but in my mind, the increase would be accepted by much of the golfing public and something else would be given up, whether its the 48 oz Mountain Dew or the daily mocha. This is why I don't see it as catastrophic. And I don't know how many people are on the grounds crew, but smaller footprint courses probably have fewer than 12, and the high end larger courses would have more... but as the article above states, the high end course client doesn't care anyway.

 

BNGL, am I way off here?

 

I don’t think you are off base but the basis for your math is wrong. You are only thinking of the grounds crew, you have to add F & B, cart barn kids, starters, everyone. They all go up. So if you have 12 on the turf crew, 4 dishwashers, 9 cooks, 6 bartenders, 15 servers, 8 cart barn kids, 4 starters, 5 bev cart girls, 2 people in the shop and a partridge in a pear tree that equals a lot of $.

[mallrat]

 

With a mandatory pay increase that may get passed onto the consumer, you’re not going to see an improvement in Course conditions or service etc. I think you’ll actually see a decrease as courses pinch the purse for extras such as bunker renovations, new irrigation, new carts etc. at least in the short term. Some clubs will figure it out sooner than others and thrive, but there will be some that simply cannot keep up.

 

My home course has actually started filling in bunkers with sod. My guess is it’s to help with maintenance costs while at the same time making the course “easier”. Personally I feel like they are neutering the golf course, but I get it from a maintenance perspective

 

Have you talked to them about filling the bunkers in? Could they be redoing the bunkers? A cheap bunker liner is to take sod, lay it all through the bunker, kill the sod and resand the bunker.

[augustgolf]

Now my math may be faulty, but if you gave all the employees a $5 raise, and assume you have 12 employees on the grounds crew. That equals a $2400 labor increase per week. The FICA/FUTA increase would be 15% to round it out, so total business expense increase is $2760/ week. Now, say the course sees approximately 20,000 rounds (this is a northern course), so over 7 months. The increase for labor is $78,000 or so. So, the average cost per round would have to increase about $4.

 

How many players do you think would stop playing golf, or have to limit their golf because of the increase? I really don't know, but in my mind, the increase would be accepted by much of the golfing public and something else would be given up, whether its the 48 oz Mountain Dew or the daily mocha. This is why I don't see it as catastrophic. And I don't know how many people are on the grounds crew, but smaller footprint courses probably have fewer than 12, and the high end larger courses would have more... but as the article above states, the high end course client doesn't care anyway.

 

BNGL, am I way off here?

 

I don't think you are off base but the basis for your math is wrong. You are only thinking of the grounds crew, you have to add F & B, cart barn kids, starters, everyone. They all go up. So if you have 12 on the turf crew, 4 dishwashers, 9 cooks, 6 bartenders, 15 servers, 8 cart barn kids, 4 starters, 5 bev cart girls, 2 people in the shop and a partridge in a pear tree that equals a lot of $.

 

Your club has quite a staff - that is not the reality at so many courses.

[Petethreeput]

Now my math may be faulty, but if you gave all the employees a $5 raise, and assume you have 12 employees on the grounds crew. That equals a $2400 labor increase per week. The FICA/FUTA increase would be 15% to round it out, so total business expense increase is $2760/ week. Now, say the course sees approximately 20,000 rounds (this is a northern course), so over 7 months. The increase for labor is $78,000 or so. So, the average cost per round would have to increase about $4.

 

How many players do you think would stop playing golf, or have to limit their golf because of the increase? I really don't know, but in my mind, the increase would be accepted by much of the golfing public and something else would be given up, whether its the 48 oz Mountain Dew or the daily mocha. This is why I don't see it as catastrophic. And I don't know how many people are on the grounds crew, but smaller footprint courses probably have fewer than 12, and the high end larger courses would have more... but as the article above states, the high end course client doesn't care anyway.

 

BNGL, am I way off here?

 

I don't think you are off base but the basis for your math is wrong. You are only thinking of the grounds crew, you have to add F & B, cart barn kids, starters, everyone. They all go up. So if you have 12 on the turf crew, 4 dishwashers, 9 cooks, 6 bartenders, 15 servers, 8 cart barn kids, 4 starters, 5 bev cart girls, 2 people in the shop and a partridge in a pear tree that equals a lot of $.

 

I agree with you, there is no doubt much more than the ground crew, and I liked your post. I also think many of the employees you list are paid through the F&B sales so necessarily the costs of a can of coke, burger, etc would also have to increase. And that increase is going to be based on volume as well. The shop staff will be tricky because of the pricing structure for golf equipment, that is a big cut to already thin margins.

[dave willie]

Someone above mentioned that the maintenance crew at their course has a lot of slackers who aren't worth $15/hour. One way to combat this issue is to give workers an incentive to be more efficient. Here's what has been done in many auto repair shops: let workers choose to be paid (a) an hourly rate or (b) to be paid by the standard number of hours for a task times the hourly rate. If the standard hours is 3 for a task and the worker gets it done in 2, the worker can get paid more than 8 hours in a regular shift. What happens over time is that everyone opts into the standard hours routine, and more work gets done each day. The work also gets accomplished without hiring more individuals.

 

A typical criticism is that quality is eroded. That isn't the case, because reworking the same task to fix errors is part of the original task "ticket". So the employee has the incentive to do it right the first time.

[Zac1321]

Dave this is the best suggestion for an alternative I have heard so far. As you mentioned it would take a bit of time to get the system in place correctly and have everyone buy into I but it seems like a great possible solution to maximize efficiency

[augustgolf]

Dave this is the best suggestion for an alternative I have heard so far. As you mentioned it would take a bit of time to get the system in place correctly and have everyone buy into I but it seems like a great possible solution to maximize efficiency

 

I utilized that system with construction workers. Since I knew how long tasks should take, as I expanded the business to also include insurance repairs, I could sell the jobs, and sub the work out to my crews. All except one guy were able to almost triple the $$$ they made. This other guy needed to know that he would take home $400/week, and could drink his coffee and smoke his cigarettes all day.

 

Felt sorry for him..... (not really)

[mallrat]

Now my math may be faulty, but if you gave all the employees a $5 raise, and assume you have 12 employees on the grounds crew. That equals a $2400 labor increase per week. The FICA/FUTA increase would be 15% to round it out, so total business expense increase is $2760/ week. Now, say the course sees approximately 20,000 rounds (this is a northern course), so over 7 months. The increase for labor is $78,000 or so. So, the average cost per round would have to increase about $4.

 

How many players do you think would stop playing golf, or have to limit their golf because of the increase? I really don't know, but in my mind, the increase would be accepted by much of the golfing public and something else would be given up, whether its the 48 oz Mountain Dew or the daily mocha. This is why I don't see it as catastrophic. And I don't know how many people are on the grounds crew, but smaller footprint courses probably have fewer than 12, and the high end larger courses would have more... but as the article above states, the high end course client doesn't care anyway.

 

BNGL, am I way off here?

 

 

 

I don't think you are off base but the basis for your math is wrong. You are only thinking of the grounds crew, you have to add F & B, cart barn kids, starters, everyone. They all go up. So if you have 12 on the turf crew, 4 dishwashers, 9 cooks, 6 bartenders, 15 servers, 8 cart barn kids, 4 starters, 5 bev cart girls, 2 people in the shop and a partridge in a pear tree that equals a lot of $.

 

Your club has quite a staff - that is not the reality at so many courses.

 

That was my previous club, don’t even ask about my current course. 36 holes, public and private, resort with homes and lodging. The maintenance department is normally about 35-40 deep, used to be in the 60’s when the walk mowed the greens, and another 25 in landscape (don’t ask about the profits the landscape department makes).

[augustgolf]

You hiring?