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Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!


manku

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I found it extremely annoying this weekend playing in foursomes. One guy wanted it in on putts longer than 10 feet or so, another always wanted it in, another was using it only in certain situations and I prefer to have it out unless the putt is super long. I really wish they would have left this rule change out of the new rules. if the intent was to speed up play it certainly did the precise opposite in our group.

 

today, I did play with a guy(stranger)who insisted on flag-in for ALL putts. Replacing flag for 6” putts - kind of annoying.

 

 

you made him putt out the 6" and he is the annoying one ...j/k

 

if a guy is puttin for 6" the pin is going back in that hole soon anyway ...

 

Perhaps the poster pulled a Nigel Tufnel!

 

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Haven’t taken the pin out of a hole yet this year and it definitely speeds up play.

My normal playing partners decided we aren’t taking it out at all. We played 32 holes this way last Sat and it was a joy.

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Elon Musk need to develop a flagstick that hovers 6 inches above the hole using electromagnets in the cup and at the base of the flag. Flag can be removed out of the magnetic field easily but would put to bed the flag in / flag out debate whilst still retaining its required functionality. Patent pending.

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Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster

 

I agree. Leaving it in is faster.

 

But don't you realize that doing that will make your round slower ?

 

And when "they" take it out and it's now one of the other 2 guys' turn to putt, they won't put it back in for you whoever ?

 

It's the Rule. It's only good etiquette to help out whichever way each guy wants it.

 

Not to mention the animosity that will eventually develop.

 

Sheesh

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DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.

 

For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?

 

For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.

 

Your words show you understand there actually is an inherent advantage available to golfers within the rule change, as it either is or is not an advantage to have the option of leaving the flag stick in (an option that did not exist for the last 50 years), There is no in between. As you said, you are going to find ways to use the rule change to your advantage. You get it, even though for some reason you don't want to acknowledge it.

 

As for every other golfer using the rule change to their advantage, the fact that some believe there is no advantage indicates they do not understand how to use this rule change to their advantage.

 

Where's the proof of this alleged "inherent advantage?" I'm not convinced based on all I've seen that there's any real advantage, and if there is one, my bet is that it will ultimately prove to be statistically insignificant and/or case by case dependent

 

Too early for proof and it doesn't matter. I haven't convinced you or some others that having an option to leave the flag in where once before you could not is an advantage and I'm done trying. You do realize though that the first time you, or those who believe it isn't an advantage, leave the flag in on a slippery down hill six footer and your intent is to use the flag stick to your benefit, you've conceded the argument that it isn't an advantage.

 

I feel pretty confident in saying that future matches/rounds/scores will have outcomes that wouldn't have been possible prior to the rule change and I don't believe that was the original intent of the ruling bodies when they made the change.

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DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.

 

For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?

 

For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.

 

Your words show you understand there actually is an inherent advantage available to golfers within the rule change, as it either is or is not an advantage to have the option of leaving the flag stick in (an option that did not exist for the last 50 years), There is no in between. As you said, you are going to find ways to use the rule change to your advantage. You get it, even though for some reason you don't want to acknowledge it.

 

As for every other golfer using the rule change to their advantage, the fact that some believe there is no advantage indicates they do not understand how to use this rule change to their advantage.

 

Where's the proof of this alleged "inherent advantage?" I'm not convinced based on all I've seen that there's any real advantage, and if there is one, my bet is that it will ultimately prove to be statistically insignificant and/or case by case dependent

 

Too early for proof and it doesn't matter. I haven't convinced you or some others that having an option to leave the flag in where once before you could not is an advantage and I'm done trying. You do realize though that the first time you, or those who believe it isn't an advantage, leave the flag in on a slippery down hill six footer and your intent is to use the flag stick to your benefit, you've conceded the argument that it isn't an advantage.

 

I feel pretty confident in saying that future matches/rounds/scores will have outcomes that wouldn't have been possible prior to the rule change and I don't believe that was the original intent of the ruling bodies when they made the change.

 

Well perhaps you have not convinced me because you claimed an "inherent advantage," which by definition indicates something that is an ingrained and permanent attribute. I disagree. IMO It may be helpful in certain circumstances and detrimental in others... There's nothing "inherent" about that unless you want to get down in the weeds with specific scenarios and examples.

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DP, I chose your post to reply to because I found more to disagree with than you.

 

For the first bolded part, I don't understand the point being made. All players now have the option to putt with the pin in or out, so it's a fair and level playing field. How is one person advantaged over another?

 

For the 2nd bolded bit, it's really just an extension of the first. I, like every other golfer, will find ways to use this (and every other rule) to my advantage. Who wouldn't? You play by the same rules as everyone else, and you abide by them to the best of your ability - and sometimes that can be an advantage - but that advantage is available to everyone.

 

Your words show you understand there actually is an inherent advantage available to golfers within the rule change, as it either is or is not an advantage to have the option of leaving the flag stick in (an option that did not exist for the last 50 years), There is no in between. As you said, you are going to find ways to use the rule change to your advantage. You get it, even though for some reason you don't want to acknowledge it.

 

As for every other golfer using the rule change to their advantage, the fact that some believe there is no advantage indicates they do not understand how to use this rule change to their advantage.

 

Where's the proof of this alleged "inherent advantage?" I'm not convinced based on all I've seen that there's any real advantage, and if there is one, my bet is that it will ultimately prove to be statistically insignificant and/or case by case dependent

 

Too early for proof and it doesn't matter. I haven't convinced you or some others that having an option to leave the flag in where once before you could not is an advantage and I'm done trying. You do realize though that the first time you, or those who believe it isn't an advantage, leave the flag in on a slippery down hill six footer and your intent is to use the flag stick to your benefit, you've conceded the argument that it isn't an advantage.

 

I feel pretty confident in saying that future matches/rounds/scores will have outcomes that wouldn't have been possible prior to the rule change and I don't believe that was the original intent of the ruling bodies when they made the change.

 

Well perhaps you have not convinced me because you claimed an "inherent advantage," which by definition indicates something that is an ingrained and permanent attribute. I disagree. IMO It may be helpful in certain circumstances and detrimental in others... There's nothing "inherent" about that unless you want to get down in the weeds with specific scenarios and examples.

 

@#$#! My bourbon and I had to peek back into this thread. My comment about recognizing an inherent advantage was specifically in reference to one individuals thoughts and their reflection in words, not that the flag itself or any particular action had an inherent advantage.

 

I would agree that leaving the flag stick in "may be helpful in certain circumstances and detrimental in others". The inherent advantage within the rule change, or the essential nature, is the option that one has in choosing which circumstances may be beneficial and which ones may be detrimental, an option that did not exist prior to the recent rule change. Therefore, the inherent advantage, or as you say "ingrained or permanent attribute", is the choice, not the act or the object itself.

 

Definitions and meanings of words can get messy, so i will still stand by my earlier comment:

 

"The only fact is that you can now leave an object (vertical flag stick) in the hole, on the green and in the line of play."

 

If you or anyone else doesn't see that as an opportunity for an advantage, I'm sure your opponents will be quite content.

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@#$#! My bourbon and I had to peek back into this thread. My comment about recognizing an inherent advantage was specifically in reference to one individuals thoughts and their reflection in words, not that the flag itself or any particular action had an inherent advantage.

 

I would agree that leaving the flag stick in "may be helpful in certain circumstances and detrimental in others". The inherent advantage within the rule change, or the essential nature, is the option that one has in choosing which circumstances may be beneficial and which ones may be detrimental, an option that did not exist prior to the recent rule change. Therefore, the inherent advantage, or as you say "ingrained or permanent attribute", is the choice, not the act or the object itself.

 

Definitions and meanings of words can get messy, so i will still stand by my earlier comment:

 

"The only fact is that you can now leave an object (vertical flag stick) in the hole, on the green and in the line of play."

 

If you or anyone else doesn't see that as an opportunity for an advantage, I'm sure your opponents will be quite content.

 

That's fine and dandy, and it very well may be that it could create a potential advantage, but that doesn't mean that it "fundamentally" changed the game.

 

Because it didn't.

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Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster

 

So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

My sentiments exactly

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

 

Strictly by observation over the years Dave, but I don’t see how it can’t help but aid in some part, no matter what a small percentage it is. I’ve seen so many more shots helped by hitting the pin as opposed to those being hurt. By probably a 100 to 1 count. And we have a tendency to focus on balls that hit the stick and fall in the cup. Those are obviously terrrific and save a stroke. But what about those shots that are screaming over the green, leading bunkers, rough, water, etc. Even if the ball doesn’t fall, even if doesn’t stop close enough that the person makes the ensuing putt it can save a big(ish) number.

 

So if a flagstick kicks out a ball that might have fallen, you’ve lost one stroke (most likely scenario). That’s all you can lose. But the number you can save is open ended.


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i dont really care either way. I have not played since the rule changed because it has been a very rough, long winter.

 

if i am playing and whoever i am with (I don't have any regulars) wants it out, I will pull it. IF they want to leave it in, I will leave it. For years when playing by myself, i have left it in simply so I didn't have to walk back and forth.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

My sentiments exactly

 

Oh I don't know, we could see a new approach to putting take root. Kind of like Fowler's approach on steroids. When close enough, use an aggressive stroke that will hit the pin an fall. It will take one person to show that it's better before everyone who can will pile on.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

My sentiments exactly

 

Oh I don't know, we could see a new approach to putting take root. Kind of like Fowler's approach on steroids. When close enough, use an aggressive stroke that will hit the pin an fall. It will take one person to show that it's better before everyone who can will pile on.

And that's great on putts that hit the hole. But miss the hole, and you get to have another 5-footer. I'm just not convinced that will be the right way to go.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

My sentiments exactly

 

Oh I don't know, we could see a new approach to putting take root. Kind of like Fowler's approach on steroids. When close enough, use an aggressive stroke that will hit the pin an fall. It will take one person to show that it's better before everyone who can will pile on.

And that's great on putts that hit the hole. But miss the hole, and you get to have another 5-footer. I'm just not convinced that will be the right way to go.

Yes but some really good putters do that now, Fowler and Poulter are two. They usually have a bit of pace on the shorter putts and live with the 4-5 footer on the misses.

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If everyone wants to argue a tangible benefit to leaving it in then why would you NOT do just that? This makes zero sense. The ruling bodies made the rule change and now its ours to own and deal with like it or not. I’m personally not ever voting to take the pin out, if 1-5 putts that actually strike the pin have a negative effect I can live with those odds.

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It’s because the optic helps some and hurts others. It’s not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

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It’s because the optic helps some and hurts others. It’s not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. It’s a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

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It’s because the optic helps some and hurts others. It’s not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. It’s a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

 

There are many other simple things that "aware" player can do to help speed pace of play if they so choose. This rule change is generally a non-factor for pace

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It’s because the optic helps some and hurts others. It’s not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. It’s a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

 

Yes. But. I’m on the end of I can’t stand looking at the pin from anything short of 40 feet. So it’s out. Always. I’ve tried now and had some horrid putting rounds with the pin in. It’s as if it causes me to flinch and not hit the ball toward the hole.

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Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster

 

So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.

No one-and no one wants to play behind that group. :)

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It's because the optic helps some and hurts others. It's not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. It's a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

 

Yes. But. I'm on the end of I can't stand looking at the pin from anything short of 40 feet. So it's out. Always. I've tried now and had some horrid putting rounds with the pin in. It's as if it causes me to flinch and not hit the ball toward the hole.

Yeah but.... you were flinching before as I recall. :dntknw:

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      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

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