Callaway Rogue SZ vs. Callaway Epic Flash SZ Updated

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  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Jan 6, 2019 #32


    They seem to have taken the optimizer tool off of the trackman website. Looking at the chart, for your approx. ballspeed of 163 mph with a +5 AOA the optimum is (your numbers in brackets);



    Launch 13.7 (Flash 13.7)

    Backspin 2435 (Flash 2394)

    Dynamic loft 15.2 (Flash 17.5)

    Carry 279 (Flash 275)



    So given your actual ballspeed is around 160, your numbers are really good but that dynamic loft of 17.5 is robbing you of a little ballspeed and adding to sidespin / backspin. I can see from your numbers you have a two way miss going depending on how far open the clubface is relative to swing path but the face is always open and the swingpath always out to in at impact. I can't give you numbers I'm afraid but do experiment with ball position. My instinct is dialling the loft down on the head is not the way to go as that will make it even more difficult for you to square the club at impact rather than currently being open (which is what the minus adjustment on the adapter does). Maintaining the positive AOA but with a more neutral path and clubface will be far more consistent and can add a few more yards vs chopping across the ball.



    It's interesting that you used the same shaft as the impact position on Epic is a lot more toe up at impact than Rogue which suggests the base lie angle on Epic is more upright. Is the 43.5" the raw shaft length or playing length as for some people the ball creeps forwards to compensate for a club that is too long / upright. Make sure you don't use the more upright D setting on the Callaway and you might try gripping the club a little shorter when you move the ball back just to see how the numbers look.




    43.5 playing length. I cut it almost 2 inches a few months ago. it was 45+. And from my experience with lower driver lofts, you are absolutely correct. I cant control it, so thats why id prefer not do it.



    And you guys are also correct about my AoA and ball position, the ball is too far forward in my circle for a 0.0 path, but i find that im more consistent with a slight o2i path. I prefer 2* o2i with about +/-1* tolerance. The reason is because i cant get a driver flat enough because im 5'7, so the toe is always up. if i get to 0 path i hit knuckle hooks that i cannot control due to the toe up.



    I also do not use the D setting, as I am aware of how the adapter changes lie. It was nuetral setting.



    Here are some new numbers from today with the lighter 12g slider put back in, and same 14g weight in front. Shaft on S/N. I wasnt swinging it as fast or hitting the middle as well today, i was kind of fighting my swing obviously. It happens...Anyways, I was hitting it farther with slower speeds and smash. I did hit one after exporting this file that carried 284 with 161 ball speed(go figure). These settings are much better.



    Posted:
    Callaway
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  • Les StrokesLes Strokes Members  527WRX Points: 125Posts: 527 Golden Tee
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    Good stuff caddie - so which one do you prefer at the moment?
    Posted:
  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #34


    Good stuff caddie - so which one do you prefer at the moment?




    Thank you! Flash for sure. The forgiveness & reduced hook of high toe misses is a game changer for me. Now that its getting dialed in and starting to fly as well has me pretty excited for next year.
    Posted:
    Callaway
  • stk123stk123 Members  455WRX Points: 97Posts: 455 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jan 7, 2019 #35



    They seem to have taken the optimizer tool off of the trackman website. Looking at the chart, for your approx. ballspeed of 163 mph with a +5 AOA the optimum is (your numbers in brackets);



    Launch 13.7 (Flash 13.7)

    Backspin 2435 (Flash 2394)

    Dynamic loft 15.2 (Flash 17.5)

    Carry 279 (Flash 275)



    So given your actual ballspeed is around 160, your numbers are really good but that dynamic loft of 17.5 is robbing you of a little ballspeed and adding to sidespin / backspin. I can see from your numbers you have a two way miss going depending on how far open the clubface is relative to swing path but the face is always open and the swingpath always out to in at impact. I can't give you numbers I'm afraid but do experiment with ball position. My instinct is dialling the loft down on the head is not the way to go as that will make it even more difficult for you to square the club at impact rather than currently being open (which is what the minus adjustment on the adapter does). Maintaining the positive AOA but with a more neutral path and clubface will be far more consistent and can add a few more yards vs chopping across the ball.



    It's interesting that you used the same shaft as the impact position on Epic is a lot more toe up at impact than Rogue which suggests the base lie angle on Epic is more upright. Is the 43.5" the raw shaft length or playing length as for some people the ball creeps forwards to compensate for a club that is too long / upright. Make sure you don't use the more upright D setting on the Callaway and you might try gripping the club a little shorter when you move the ball back just to see how the numbers look.




    43.5 playing length. I cut it almost 2 inches a few months ago. it was 45+. And from my experience with lower driver lofts, you are absolutely correct. I cant control it, so thats why id prefer not do it.



    And you guys are also correct about my AoA and ball position, the ball is too far forward in my circle for a 0.0 path, but i find that im more consistent with a slight o2i path. I prefer 2* o2i with about +/-1* tolerance. The reason is because i cant get a driver flat enough because im 5'7, so the toe is always up. if i get to 0 path i hit knuckle hooks that i cannot control due to the toe up.



    I also do not use the D setting, as I am aware of how the adapter changes lie. It was nuetral setting.



    Here are some new numbers from today with the lighter 12g slider put back in, and same 14g weight in front. Shaft on S/N. I wasnt swinging it as fast or hitting the middle as well today, i was kind of fighting my swing obviously. It happens...Anyways, I was hitting it farther with slower speeds and smash. I did hit one after exporting this file that carried 284 with 161 ball speed(go figure). These settings are much better.







    Glad to hear you took my advice and moved that rear weight down from 20g to 12g. It is amazing how much of a difference it made. Now your numbers are way better: better spin, better carry, better total distance and even better dispersion. Looks like your ball speed went down either due to mishits or different CG location with lower weight in back. Either way, the numbers are great and looks like a huge improvement and worth the money.
    Posted:
  • MarkAJonesMarkAJones Jonesy Members  228WRX Points: 36Handicap: 13Posts: 228 Fairways
    Joined:  #36
    Is it just me or does the forward weight in the Flash SZ seem set back slightly more than the Rogue SZ? Only millimetres and it could just be camera angle. Also, the heads are different shapes, faces are different and a load of other variables no doubt but if weight placement is the considered factor, if it's further back in the Flash, that may be at the very least a contributing factor as to why lots of reviews are seeing the the Flash as (marginally) more "spinny" than the Rogue. I'm assuming the weights in the Rogue SZ are the same (weights) as the Flash SZ (2/12)
    Posted:
    Hart Common Golf Club, Westhoughton, United Kingdom

    WITB:

    Driver: TaylorMade 2017 M1 HZRDUS Stiff 10.5
    Hybrid: TaylorMade M1 Hybrid #2 Kuro Kage Stiff Set at 15.5
    Hybrid: TaylorMade M1 Hybrid #3 Kuro Kage Stiff Set at 18
    Hybrid: TaylorMade M1 Hybrid #4 Kuro Kage Stiff Set at 22.5
    Irons: Ping i200 5 - PW AWT 2.0 Stiff Green dot +1inch
    Wedge 1:
    Ping Glide 50 degree CFS Wedge Flex Green dot +1inch
    Wedge 2:
    Ping Glide 54 degree CFS Wedge Flex Green dot +1.25inch
    Wedge 3:
    Ping Glide 58 degree CFS Wedge Flex Green dot +1.50inch
    Putter: Ping Ketsch Cadence 375g

    Gamer Ball: Bridgestone B330RXS
  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #37
    Flash 1/1 on the PGA tour this year with that win by Xander.



    Ill check the weight port position tomorrow. The head is def taller and more compact. I was actually thinking, regarding a question someone posed earlier about the toe up angle increasing; that its probably due to the Flash head being slightly taller, so if I play the same shaft in both, the flash will play 1/4 - 1/2" longer due to the taller head. Would make the toe sit up a little more.
    Posted:
    Callaway
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  • Golfer from MOGolfer from MO Members  1044WRX Points: 86Handicap: 2.1Posts: 1,044 Platinum Tees
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    stk123 wrote:

    JakeW13 wrote:


    Not going to lie, pretty negligible differences.




    I am going to disagree on this one. It is obvious that the Rogue is dialed for the OP, as he hit is consistently compared to the Epic Flash. Where the Epic Flash shines is that it has better dispersion and the best drive was way better than the best drive with the Rogue.



    It just looks to me like a couple of bad/subpar shots with high spin caused the average carry/total yard numbers to get closer to the Rogue.



    i would try to find a way to lower spin with the Flash. As the extra launch angle with lower spin will probably add another 5y+ and make it stand out much better than the Rogue. Try lowering the rear sliding weight back to 14g and keep the heavier weight up front. That will even out the head weights of the 2 drivers and should lower spin rates. It should help a lot IMO.




    I am still fine tuning the Flash and will def squeeze a few more yds once I get it where i want it. I struggled a bit with the Rogue at first too, until I figured out a weight combo/shaft setting that worked for me.



    Dispersion is much better for me. The difference on high toe shots is fantastic. They used to be knuckle hooks with the rogue, and feel flush and go much straighter with Flash.


    This is what I've found too on the slight high toe, really impressive numbers out there. Fighting to keep my rogue sz in bag...
    Posted:
  • CaddiesFaultCaddiesFault Golf Professional Members  862WRX Points: 142Handicap: -Posts: 862 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #39
    January 18th:



    was hitting driver really solid today. This thing is tuned and long AF.

    Posted:
    Callaway
  • greenadam21greenadam21 Of all the hazards, fear is the worst. - Sam Snead Members  613WRX Points: 57Handicap: +.4Posts: 613 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #40
    anyone have any idea what the head weight is of the new flash.



    they moved the weight from the lighter adapter supposedly...just curious
    Posted:
  • WeritoK2WeritoK2 Members  164WRX Points: 39Handicap: 11Posts: 164 Fairways
    Joined:  edited Mar 6, 2019 #41
    I would love to get an aftermarket 2gr slider weight and a 12gr screw in weight to switch the whole CG to the exact opposite, when I switched the weights in the rogue sub zero, it made a world of difference, with my new Flash sub zero I just can't find any aftermarket sliding weights lighter than 6.5 grams.



    I received today in the mail a 6.5 slider weight and a 9.5 screw in weight, replaced the standard weights and went out to play some holes, swing was awful and the driver head felt strange, the sound got way louder. In the last par 4 I switched the 9.5gr screw in weight for the standard 2gr weight and hit a nice long drive, head felt lighter...



    Anyway... Can anyone tell me how would the driver head "behave" in these two scenarios:



    6.5gr back and 9.5gr front weights



    6.5gr back and stock 2gr front weights



    If it helps, my shaft is a 45" playing length Fujikura Speeder Evo IV 661 TR Stiff



    By the way, what I am trying to achieve is lower flight and spin



    Would appreciate your comments!
    Posted:
  • jmac13jmac13 Members  765WRX Points: 97Posts: 765 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #42
    WeritoK2 wrote:


    I would love to get an aftermarket 2gr slider weight and a 12gr screw in weight to switch the whole CG to the exact opposite, when I switched the weights in the rogue sub zero, it made a world of difference, with my new Flash sub zero I just can't find any aftermarket sliding weights lighter than 6.5 grams.



    I received today in the mail a 6.5 slider weight and a 9.5 screw in weight, replaced the standard weights and went out to play some holes, swing was awful and the driver head felt strange, the sound got way louder. In the last par 4 I switched the 9.5gr screw in weight for the standard 2gr weight and hit a nice long drive, head felt lighter...



    Anyway... Can anyone tell me how would the driver head "behave" in these two scenarios:



    6.5gr back and 9.5gr front weights



    6.5gr back and stock 2gr front weights



    If it helps, my shaft is a 45" playing length Fujikura Speeder Evo IV 661 TR Stiff



    By the way, what I am trying to achieve is lower flight and spin



    Would appreciate your comments!




    The best way I have gotten the launch and spin down is with a 17g front weight and completely remove the slider and put it in the -1 setting. You will not be happy with the sound because what I’m figuring out is the lighter the back slider, the louder the driver gets. My launch and spin typically sit at around 15.5/2300 and the EFSZ with the 17g/0g combo at -1 setting was around 11/1900. At my SS that is way too low and I’ve never produced numbers like that. It was crazy low flight.
    Posted:
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  • WeritoK2WeritoK2 Members  164WRX Points: 39Handicap: 11Posts: 164 Fairways
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    jmac13 wrote:

    WeritoK2 wrote:


    I would love to get an aftermarket 2gr slider weight and a 12gr screw in weight to switch the whole CG to the exact opposite, when I switched the weights in the rogue sub zero, it made a world of difference, with my new Flash sub zero I just can't find any aftermarket sliding weights lighter than 6.5 grams.



    I received today in the mail a 6.5 slider weight and a 9.5 screw in weight, replaced the standard weights and went out to play some holes, swing was awful and the driver head felt strange, the sound got way louder. In the last par 4 I switched the 9.5gr screw in weight for the standard 2gr weight and hit a nice long drive, head felt lighter...



    Anyway... Can anyone tell me how would the driver head "behave" in these two scenarios:



    6.5gr back and 9.5gr front weights



    6.5gr back and stock 2gr front weights



    If it helps, my shaft is a 45" playing length Fujikura Speeder Evo IV 661 TR Stiff



    By the way, what I am trying to achieve is lower flight and spin



    Would appreciate your comments!




    The best way I have gotten the launch and spin down is with a 17g front weight and completely remove the slider and put it in the -1 setting. You will not be happy with the sound because what I’m figuring out is the lighter the back slider, the louder the driver gets. My launch and spin typically sit at around 15.5/2300 and the EFSZ with the 17g/0g combo at -1 setting was around 11/1900. At my SS that is way too low and I’ve never produced numbers like that. It was crazy low flight.




    Wow, I was considering doing that but thought it would mess the whole thing... How was forgiveness affected by doing it?
    Posted:
  • jmac13jmac13 Members  765WRX Points: 97Posts: 765 Golden Tee
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    I only hit about 10-15 balls with it set that way but dispersion wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be. Launch was just way too low for my swing speed. With the driver not as stretched out as the Rogue I would expect over a larger sample size that it will be less forgiving than the RogueSZ with the heavy weight forward...
    Posted:
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