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Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!


manku

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It's because the optic helps some and hurts others. It's not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. It's a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

 

Yes. But. I'm on the end of I can't stand looking at the pin from anything short of 40 feet. So it's out. Always. I've tried now and had some horrid putting rounds with the pin in. It's as if it causes me to flinch and not hit the ball toward the hole.

Yeah but.... you were flinching before as I recall. :dntknw:

 

Yep. But it makes it worse. Lol.

 

Much worse. Speed just goes nuts . One 5 ft by. Next one 6 ft short.

 

Pull the pin and almost like magic. Speed goes back to center . I can’t be the only head case playing this damn game. Lol

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Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster

 

So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.

They would.

 

Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To hell with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.

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I disagree with the pin being a visual aid. Very few putts over 1.5 feet are inside the hole.

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I disagree with the pin being a visual aid. Very few putts over 1.5 feet are inside the hole.

 

Yeah that argument was dead before it even left the tee box. You could always have the flag attended, thus giving you a visual aid.

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Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster

 

So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.

They would.

 

Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To hell with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.

 

To be clear Vin I was asking to play devils advocate vs his statement that anyone wanting it out has to do it themselves. Somehow it escaped him that the pin maybe out first. Lol.

 

I’ll always use courtesy and help with the pin anytime I can. Only people I’ve seen say otherwise are the pin in zealots who think anyone wanting it out Are now holding up the game.

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Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster

 

So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.

They would.

 

Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To hell with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.

 

To be clear Vin I was asking to play devils advocate vs his statement that anyone wanting it out has to do it themselves. Somehow it escaped him that the pin maybe out first. Lol.

 

I'll always use courtesy and help with the pin anytime I can. Only people I've seen say otherwise are the pin in zealots who think anyone wanting it out Are now holding up the game.

I'm with you, this rule change shouldn't change the way we treat each other on the golf course. Of course, its a lot easier to be a rigid a-hole in a semi-anonymous website than it is in real life.

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Unless the pin is never taken out it will speed up play 2 minutes a hole. All the rule changes are stupid. You might as well let the players kick the ball away from behind a tree to so they don't have to go thru the drop routine.

I will say while playing alone for convenience I always left the flag in.

 

If not taking the flag out speeds up play then not marking your ball no matter where it is should be allowed. Then if speeding up play matters then anything 2 ft is a gimme. What I'm saying is the rule changes are a joke

 

Most of us can read. We got it. ;)

 

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This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.

 

Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.

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This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.

 

Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.

 

True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.

 

Everything is in the book

 

http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13

 

Please see 13-2 and its interpretations

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I disagree with the pin being a visual aid. Very few putts over 1.5 feet are inside the hole.

 

Yeah that argument was dead before it even left the tee box. You could always have the flag attended, thus giving you a visual aid.

 

but having someone stand there is distracting. haha

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

 

Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

 

Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.

Pros have always had the opportunity to have the pin tended, they won't get any new advantage in this aspect from the rule change. But yes, if a player makes a choice that helps him save fractions, and the other players don't take the same advantage, the change can tilt results a bit, occasionally. It kind of makes you question the guys who won't even consider changing their current habits.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

 

Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.

Pros have always had the opportunity to have the pin tended, they won't get any new advantage in this aspect from the rule change. But yes, if a player makes a choice that helps him save fractions, and the other players don't take the same advantage, the change can tilt results a bit, occasionally. It kind of makes you question the guys who won't even consider changing their current habits.

Great point.

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No pro, or person playing a serious tournament, is going to have a flag tended on a 10 foot or less putt. Why? Because if the person tending spaces out or has difficulty removing the flagstick (which has happened to me a few times...albeit on long putts...fortunately the ball missed the hole), the player will incur a significant penalty. No one will risk that.

 

Also, at least for my pea sized brain, having someone next to the hole on a short putt is a visual distraction.

 

As I said in my OP, it's a really small sample size so far for me. But I know I'm putting with much more confidence...and in a game where your mind is perhaps the major factor in your performance, that has to mean something.

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No pro, or person playing a serious tournament, is going to have a flag tended on a 10 foot or less putt. Why? Because if the person tending spaces out or has difficulty removing the flagstick (which has happened to me a few times...albeit on long putts...fortunately the ball missed the hole), the player will incur a significant penalty. No one will risk that.

 

Also, at least for my pea sized brain, having someone next to the hole on a short putt is a visual distraction.

 

As I said in my OP, it's a really small sample size so far for me. But I know I'm putting with much more confidence...and in a game where your mind is perhaps the major factor in your performance, that has to mean something.

I feel like I've seen a few players have the flag tended on pretty short putts, but I can't name specifics. I know I've seen a few caddies leave the flagstick in the hole until what seems like the very last instant. I think they generally pull it loose first, and set it gently back in, so there won't be any chance of the stick being stuck in the hole. After all, those caddies ARE professionals.

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Anecdotally, I teed off in a threeball at 7:30 this morning. Never pulled a pin. Finished at 10:20. 73.4/136. And it was paths only.

IDK how much of it was the pin in, but I'm sure it didn't hurt. Starting to come around.

As an aside, I did have to touch up some cups after wedging my fat fingers in to pull the ball.

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Fundamentally? Hogwash.

 

Incrementally by an itsy bitsy bit....sure.

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Half of our group wants it in vs half wants it out. We decided that those who wants the pin out will have to do it themselves. Self service. When we played with the group leaving it in it was faster

 

So when they walk up and pull the pin. Who puts it back in ? Lol.

They would.

 

Oh it's gonna be epic. I can't wait to through putt all the way in and just leave the stick laying on the ground. To hell with etiquette, the rule changed doncha know? Too bad I have to wait another 3 months or so but, man it'll be good.

 

To be clear Vin I was asking to play devils advocate vs his statement that anyone wanting it out has to do it themselves. Somehow it escaped him that the pin maybe out first. Lol.

 

I'll always use courtesy and help with the pin anytime I can. Only people I've seen say otherwise are the pin in zealots who think anyone wanting it out Are now holding up the game.

 

Of course. I was just funnin' around. Rule change shouldn't mean etiquette change. I should mention that in prior threads I did question the new flagstick rule. I didn't care about pace per se, but I brought up that it might be somewhere contrary to the backstopping policy (bit of a stretch) but in the end I thought that it really wasn't going to effect my day on the course.

run of the mill driver with stock shaft
a couple of outdated hybrids
shovel-ier shovels
wedges from same shovel company
some putter with a dead insert and
a hideous grip

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This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.

 

Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.

 

True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.

 

Everything is in the book

 

http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13

 

Please see 13-2 and its interpretations

 

So, the way I read it, if it’s not centered, it can be moved so it is?


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This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.

 

Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.

 

True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.

 

Everything is in the book

 

http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13

 

Please see 13-2 and its interpretations

 

So, the way I read it, if it’s not centered, it can be moved so it is?

 

That is how I read it as well.

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This was probably in here somewhere and I missed it. But can you adjust the flagstick if it is leaning? Before you putt.

 

 

Not sure. But I am sure you can pull it and change your mind and put it back.

 

True, so if it does happen to be leaning the wrong direction you could reseat it.

 

Everything is in the book

 

http://www.usga.org/...rule&rulenum=13

 

Please see 13-2 and its interpretations

 

So, the way I read it, if it’s not centered, it can be moved so it is?

 

That is how I read it as well.

 

Oh, and thank you for linking it Kev, made it so much easier.

 

BTW, where did Fred go?


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