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This just blew my mind...........Correct Lie Angle?


leo the lion

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Just watched this video from Ian and Matty from TXG

 

I never liked the lie board method and I had been using a black sharpie on a ball. I always thought lie angle was one of the most important factors in fitting for irons..........but not now.

Driver - Ping G400 LST 8.5* Tour Stiff 65
Fairways - Ping G410 #5 17.5* Evenflow 75 Stiff (set at big minus 16* = 3/4 wood)
Hybrids - Ping G 19* #3 Stiff Tour Stiff 90 and Ping G410 24* #4 Tour Stiff 85
Irons - Ping G410 irons 5-PW Nippon N.S.Pro 950 GH Stiff white dot +1/2" 
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Video was twice as long as it needed to be. Wait til you hit off real turf and his toe digs in. Lie is a bit overrated as how often do you get a perfect lie?

 

What we saw. was a player who played FLAT without a real need, he did that to fix a swing flaw, and thats NOT what lie angles should be used for, so to compensate for a to fast wrist action who can and should be taken care off, the player went 2 flat to correct ball flight to correct a fault who really is face to close to path...

 

What they did not mention was, if lie angle is OFF, we have issues making impact at sweetspot, and this player showed that too, so he is loosing ball speed, spin and distance since he is to lazy to correct a swing flaw, and misused lie angle to get flight right.

 

thats why i say its a myth that ball light dont lie, this was the school example of it, using one parameter to fix another, so he did not fix any problems at all, but we get to see what it was, a face angle way to closed at impact vs what it should have been, and here so bad i would have sent the player for lessons to get it fixed. i would NEVER use 2 flat to fix a face angle issue, that should be done by grip size and grip shape, the hands them self and how we place them on the grip, how we address the ball etc....thats NOT Lie angle issues at all, they are player related, but can be adjusted on the equipment, but lie angle is NOT where we tweak that

 

This player seems to have been playing clubs too flat, and that has cause a swing flaw (compensation by more face close up to get ball flight right), and now he dont want to or is not able to change to what it should have been, his "compensative moves" is stuck in his body, he keeps doing them on pure "body memory", so he want be able to adapt to playing correct lies = his impact will still suffer due to that.

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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He is indeed using it to correct a flaw, but he literally can't play golf with a 4* upright lie angle at this moment, as shown. He's playing off scratch with his flaw, and he's not getting paid to play. So who cares what's "right" and "wrong" with respect to his club specs. I'm sure he is working on getting that handle raising & flip action to stop, and as he's progressing, he can slowly make his clubs more upright.

 

Isn't the goal to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible? Fitting should be based around our swing and what's working at that moment, not some kind of idealized characteristics. If it was, nobody should go get fit until you swing 120 with driver, with perfect AoA, face to path and club path direction. If you change your swing... go get refit. Rinse & repeat until your game & swing is at a point where you are content. I think the point of their video is to just show us simply that the lie board is really just part of the equation of fitting for iron lie angle. You need to factor in your swing [flaws] and understand how you strike the ball, too.

 

 

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People need to take these videos for what they are, a combination of propaganda and marketing for their fitting business. Most of the videos hammer down on 3 points. First, everyone needs elaborate GC Quad based full set fittings. Second, whatever methods and equipment they are using are the very best. Third, everyone would benefit from upgrading to a $350 or more composite shaft (usually the very latest, most expensive, or most exotic brand).

 

That being said, they aren't doing anything different from anyone else in the golf business making claims about new and better equipment, technology, etc.

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I guess it must be the accent that makes people believe anything.

 

So this guy has learned to compensate for clubs that are too flat by hooding the club face at impact. Effectively turning a 6-iron into a closed 5.

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He is indeed using it to correct a flaw, but he literally can't play golf with a 4* upright lie angle at this moment, as shown. He's playing off scratch with his flaw, and he's not getting paid to play. So who cares what's "right" and "wrong" with respect to his club specs. I'm sure he is working on getting that handle raising & flip action to stop, and as he's progressing, he can slowly make his clubs more upright.

 

Isn't the goal to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible? Fitting should be based around our swing and what's working at that moment, not some kind of idealized characteristics. If it was, nobody should go get fit until you swing 120 with driver, with perfect AoA, face to path and club path direction. If you change your swing... go get refit. Rinse & repeat until your game & swing is at a point where you are content. I think the point of their video is to just show us simply that the lie board is really just part of the equation of fitting for iron lie angle. You need to factor in your swing [flaws] and understand how you strike the ball, too.

 

You dont seems to understand my point at all

 

# 1 this company promote FITTING

...., but what we saw was misuse of lie angles to fix a swing flaw, and yes that can be done temporary, but is that club fitting of lie angles? no it was a fix of a swing flaw using lie angles to fix it.

 

# 2

Equipment FORCE the player...so by changing club specs we can tweak the player back to whats right, and yes, in the end its about how many, but if thats all you care about, DONT mention fitting at all, but when they move into that area (its their living), we talk MORE than scoring, and we use club specs to get the players swing to become good, here it was used to keep status Q who was no good, and thats kind of "anti fitting" in my book.

 

For drivers we should involve face angle at address, for most thats out of the question because they cant stand the look of a open or closed face, bit this player should consider that instead of mis-using lie angles like he does, it prevent him from his best score even as a scratch player...

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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I disliked this video for so many reasons, many of which Howard touched on, but the one thing we are all left with is.....

 

Do we fit someone’s lie based on his actual ball flight and his swing flaws RIGHT NOW or do we try to give him what SHOULD work if the swing flaws and/or path flaws didn’t exist??

 

Quite the quandary. Ian admittedly sweeps at it hard from the inside and aggressively flips closed through impact. He obviously has great eye hand coordination and has been doing it a very long time so he is “used to” clubs that in reality SHOULD be dramatically too flat for him. The fact is, given his current grooved but flawed swing, the flat clubs clearly work just fine for him.

 

So....Do you change the clubs and “force” him to correct the swing flaws or do you simply accept what he is doing and make the clubs work for his current swing? Sort of like the age old “chicken or the egg” question.

 

I haven’t actively fitted since the 90’s, But I honestly would have to say that if someone comes to be fitted and has no intention of changing anything in their swing, then just make the darn clubs work for the current swing. There really is no reason to give him clubs that SHOULD fit him after he changes his swing, because most people never actually change their swing!! They may say they are changing their swing, but few really do.

 

I’ve recently experienced exactly the problem that is illustrated here. I have a mid handicaper friend that we used face impact tape and a marked ball to Dynamically fit his lie and it appeared his clubs were clearly 2 degrees too flat, but he also has very obvious swing flaws that should be addressed. We bent the irons 2 up and it absolutely destroyed his 12 handicap game. Left, left, left . It was just hideous. The clubs technically “fit” him, he just had a closed face move through the ball that would not tolerate the clubs at a “proper” lie angle. He is a once a week “league golfer” had no intention of getting better or taking lessons so We bent them back. Problem solved immediately. Very eye opening.

 

I guess I must admit that there are situations were “ill fitting” clubs should just be left alone..

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I guess it must be the accent that makes people believe anything.

 

So this guy has learned to compensate for clubs that are too flat by hooding the club face at impact. Effectively turning a 6-iron into a closed 5.

 

Yep. The good old accent must do it.

 

I’ve caught so many technical things in his videos that are either unclear, very poorly explained, or dead wrong and when you bring it up all of his new fans jump on you like they want to beat you up through the computer screen.

 

I fully expect now to be called various names and be berated for being a “hater”, but I assure everyone I’m not. For the most part I like the videos, but there are definitely errors and poor explanations on a regular basis.

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Lets also not forget that if someone is consistently missing in the pull/draw direction, they can simply address the ball with a more open face

 

It could also make it worse. Most people who hook/over draw do so because of an extreme path to the right. If they face is too open they can start hitting big blocks, then compensate by shutting down the face and bring in the ol snapper.

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He is indeed using it to correct a flaw, but he literally can't play golf with a 4* upright lie angle at this moment, as shown. He's playing off scratch with his flaw, and he's not getting paid to play. So who cares what's "right" and "wrong" with respect to his club specs. I'm sure he is working on getting that handle raising & flip action to stop, and as he's progressing, he can slowly make his clubs more upright.

 

Isn't the goal to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible? Fitting should be based around our swing and what's working at that moment, not some kind of idealized characteristics. If it was, nobody should go get fit until you swing 120 with driver, with perfect AoA, face to path and club path direction. If you change your swing... go get refit. Rinse & repeat until your game & swing is at a point where you are content. I think the point of their video is to just show us simply that the lie board is really just part of the equation of fitting for iron lie angle. You need to factor in your swing [flaws] and understand how you strike the ball, too.

 

You dont seems to understand my point at all

 

# 1 this company promote FITTING

...., but what we saw was misuse of lie angles to fix a swing flaw, and yes that can be done temporary, but is that club fitting of lie angles? no it was a fix of a swing flaw using lie angles to fix it.

 

# 2

Equipment FORCE the player...so by changing club specs we can tweak the player back to whats right, and yes, in the end its about how many, but if thats all you care about, DONT mention fitting at all, but when they move into that area (its their living), we talk MORE than scoring, and we use club specs to get the players swing to become good, here it was used to keep status Q who was no good, and thats kind of "anti fitting" in my book.

 

For drivers we should involve face angle at address, for most thats out of the question because they cant stand the look of a open or closed face, bit this player should consider that instead of mis-using lie angles like he does, it prevent him from his best score even as a scratch player...

I mean, I'll admit my reading comprehension isn't the best in the world, but I'm pretty sure you're advocating to fit players based on what should work for them, and not actually what does. You're saying that if Ian walked in your shop with 4* toe down and a 5 yard draw that hits the green and played to scratch, you'd fit him into 4* upright irons and that would somehow, in your experience/opinion, force him into a better swing despite the fact that he'd walk out your doors with a 20 yard hook, but hey... his dynamic lie is zero'ed out so... that's good, right? Maybe he goes and gets lessons and learns to not flip the face shut and all is well. Or... he doesn't or can't, and everybody wasted their time and he's right back to 4* flat again.

 

As Jag says in post #14, very few guys can truly and permanently change their swing after having done something incorrectly for so long. If we could, we'd all play off scratch and people wouldn't be tossing clubs into lakes or breaking shafts over their legs in anger as they duff another shot. Odds are Ian is going to yank the handle up and flip through impact for the foreseeable future. If he can shoot par or near par most of the time... Why does being "ill fit" into 4* flat irons matter? Does your playing partner or really anybody else care what your iron specs are if you shot E ? I wouldn't. Obviously correcting the swing and putting his irons more upright is the right thing to do, but the odds he will or has the time to do so is low.

 

Again, just my .02. I don't think you need a fancy GCQ or anything to fit lie but it was there to help support their opinion.

 

 

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Lets also not forget that if someone is consistently missing in the pull/draw direction, they can simply address the ball with a more open face

 

It could also make it worse. Most people who hook/over draw do so because of an extreme path to the right. If they face is too open they can start hitting big blocks, then compensate by shutting down the face and bring in the ol snapper.

 

In this discussion, assuming someone is trying to reduce a closed face in relation to path....by using a flatter lie angle. My point is, lets not forget that a "standard" way to do that without changing the swing or lie angle, is by addressing the ball with a more open face

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my recent personal experience relating to this. Came back to the game after a long layoff, got fitted at one place into 0.5" long, 1 degree up (steep swing). Lie board was used. Started working with a teacher, two months later was fitted again as I wanted to move to graphite shafts to try and help with some elbow issues. Different place, tape on the club face and marker used (along with Trackman). Fitted into 0.5" long, 1 degree flat. My swing had also moved to slightly inside out.

 

Too many variables for me to figure out if the lie board was wrong or if the swing change over 2 months made a difference (probably a little from column A, a little from column B). At the end of the day, I just want to hit better shots. I will say the tape on the club face gave reproducible results.

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Im with you ziggy. I'm not a fitter but the take away from my fitting was to get equipment that works for MY swing. Trying to adapt my swing to "Correctly" fit clubs that resulted in terrible shots would be an endless losing battle. I actually posted this same topic/video on the instruction forum. I am much like Ian. I fight a hook/over draw and have toe-down strikes. The fitter recommended 2* upright based on the lie board, despite one of my main wants/desires of the fitting to be to mitigate the left miss. I ended up ordering them 1* up and so far not really liking it at all.

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Lets also not forget that if someone is consistently missing in the pull/draw direction, they can simply address the ball with a more open face

 

It could also make it worse. Most people who hook/over draw do so because of an extreme path to the right. If they face is too open they can start hitting big blocks, then compensate by shutting down the face and bring in the ol snapper.

 

In this discussion, assuming someone is trying to reduce a closed face in relation to path....by using a flatter lie angle. My point is, lets not forget that a "standard" way to do that without changing the swing or lie angle, is by addressing the ball with a more open face

 

That is exactly my point. The path is still a problem and opening the face doesn't fix that. I actually setup with an extremely strong grip such that it forces me to rotate through the ball vs stall/flip hook.

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Lets also not forget that if someone is consistently missing in the pull/draw direction, they can simply address the ball with a more open face

 

It could also make it worse. Most people who hook/over draw do so because of an extreme path to the right. If they face is too open they can start hitting big blocks, then compensate by shutting down the face and bring in the ol snapper.

 

In this discussion, assuming someone is trying to reduce a closed face in relation to path....by using a flatter lie angle. My point is, lets not forget that a "standard" way to do that without changing the swing or lie angle, is by addressing the ball with a more open face

 

That is exactly my point. The path is still a problem and opening the face doesn't fix that. I actually setup with an extremely strong grip such that it forces me to rotate through the ball vs stall/flip hook.

 

I understand. In the video linked in this thread, the player showed that he has found more accurate dispersion with a flatter lie angle....a sole angle that comes through impact, toe down. He could also accomplish this, by addressing the ball with a more open face, if he wanted to or could become comfortable enough doing it

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I got fit into 2* upright based on lie board and immediately started to hit pull hooks. I thought maybe I was just getting quick and I can hold them off but feel like I'm defending against the entire time. I'm still hiting the ball flush it is just starting left and then drawing like normal. I'm going back to standard I think.

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Im having a hard time with the "fix your swing" argument. Is adjusting loft to lower launch/spin a bandaid also?

 

 

Good point. Most players on tour do something with their equipment that some may want to call a "band aid". Most of them have come to realize that the goal is not to play "swing", but do whatever it takes to accomplish consistency

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this is heavy duty! good stuff, feel like Howard needs a vacation after that post.

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The problems I see with using a lie adjustment to fix a swing flaw are:

1. It can affect impact location on the face.

2. The less loft on the club, the less help the lie angle "fix" gives you. Say you hit the ball with a 1* closed face. You might be able to cover that in the short irons by bending it flat, but you'll be fighting a hook with the long clubs because you haven't addressed the root cause. I guess you can play flat irons and open faced woods, but it's probably not ideal.

 

I'm all for adjusting gear to make you play better, but in this case it may hinder you from playing your best IMO. play the lie angle that delivers the sole of the club level to the ground and then address face issues to correct a hook or slice.

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Im with you ziggy. I'm not a fitter but the take away from my fitting was to get equipment that works for MY swing. Trying to adapt my swing to "Correctly" fit clubs that resulted in terrible shots would be an endless losing battle. I actually posted this same topic/video on the instruction forum. I am much like Ian. I fight a hook/over draw and have toe-down strikes. The fitter recommended 2* upright based on the lie board, despite one of my main wants/desires of the fitting to be to mitigate the left miss. I ended up ordering them 1* up and so far not really liking it at all.

 

Recommending lies based on a lie board might be the problem. Give the above method a try. You don't even need the impact tape for an initial test. Just put a strait line on a ball, hit it, see if it's vertical or not.

Driver, 3W, 4W - Macgregor Custom Tourney
2-10 - 1954 Spalding Synchro Dyned
SW - Wilson Staff
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