Kingsbarns or Carnoustie

[dpark]

Having played both courses, I would play Carnoustie every day and twice on Sunday. It isn't that Kingsbarns is bad, it is visually stunning, so let me explain.

 

Gonna get a lot of hate from the Kingsbarns fans, but basically, I am not impressed by a Scottish course that moved a gazillion cubic yards of dirt to create the course. Kingsbarns is beautiful looking, but the fact that it was primarily shaped by man and not God, greatly lessens it for me.

 

There is something very cool about playing courses that were routed to "follow the land" with all the quirkiness that comes with it. Obviously there are burns on the Old Course and Carnoustie and those are man-made, but basically the courses had to follow the contours of the land because they didn't have earth-moving equipment 100+ years ago.

 

If you are a car guy, I would call Kingsbarns a "tribute" course. One that is supposed to make you feel like you are playing an ancient links course but is really a modern creation. If you don't know otherwise, you would think that Kingsbarns had been there for centuries (they did a great job). But for our 2nd trip last year, we wanted to play only traditional links courses and Kingsbarns was dropped from our trip when we went the 2nd time.

 

If you don't care about the history of the courses and you can, play both. But if you want to experience true links golf and you have to choose between the two, choose Carnoustie.

[thecraw]

Having played both courses, I would play Carnoustie every day and twice on Sunday. It isn't that Kingsbarns is bad, it is visually stunning, so let me explain.

 

Gonna get a lot of hate from the Kingsbarns fans, but basically, I am not impressed by a Scottish course that moved a gazillion cubic yards of dirt to create the course. Kingsbarns is beautiful looking, but the fact that it was primarily shaped by man and not God, greatly lessens it for me.

 

There is something very cool about playing courses that were routed to "follow the land" with all the quirkiness that comes with it. Obviously there are burns on the Old Course and Carnoustie and those are man-made, but basically the courses had to follow the contours of the land because they didn't have earth-moving equipment 100+ years ago.

 

If you are a car guy, I would call Kingsbarns a "tribute" course. One that is supposed to make you feel like you are playing an ancient links course but is really a modern creation. If you don't know otherwise, you would think that Kingsbarns had been there for centuries (they did a great job). But for our 2nd trip last year, we wanted to play only traditional links courses and Kingsbarns was dropped from our trip when we went the 2nd time.

 

If you don't care about the history of the courses and you can, play both. But if you want to experience true links golf and you have to choose between the two, choose Carnoustie.

 

Its horses for courses.

 

I am not a huge fan of Kingsbarns but it is a stunning location. Its not the greatest test of golf plus it has more than a few bland mediocre holes. Test wise, again its not in the same league as Carnoustie but it is a very enjoyable course to play.

 

Carnoustie is a beast but it lacks the visual appeal and impact of Kingbarns which for me is a big part of the overall golf course experience. The last time I was playing Carnoustie the constant pop, pop, pop, bang, bang, pop from the nearby shooting range started to get on my nerves. As a test of golf, miles ahead of Kingbarns. Factoring in other issues and what I like I think I would prefer to play Kingsbarns for the views and location.

[jwellefson1]

I know I'm a little late to the party on this one, but if I had to pick one it would probably be Carnoustie. That being said, when I played TOC, my caddy said that her favorite course in the entire world was Kingsbarns, and the single that joined my Dad and me said his favorite was either Royal Dornoch or Kingsbarns. Both of them had played tons of top-notch courses around the world. Either way I think it's a matter of what you enjoy about golf, vistas vs. truly challenging course. Both are great, so I don't think you can go wrong!

[Shemp]

Kingsbarns is an American-style links, pretty easy and enjoyable course with the wow-factor. Carnoustie is a beast and has probably the best finish in golf. I would skip Castle course and play Old, KB and Carnoustie!

 

I agree. We walked a good chunk of the Castle Course and I didn't really care for it. Kingsbarns is pretty spectacular. Challenging but fair, with incredible views all around. Great clubhouse and food. I personally loved it. Carnoustie is really a beast when the wind is up. But I'd play it again in a heartbeat. The bunkering is incredibly strategic and you really have to think your way around it. I'm an 8 hdcp and I felt fortunate to break 90. 15, 16, 17 and 18 might be the hardest finishing holes in championship golf. I went bogey, bogey, bogey par in a 20 mph wind. It was a thrill.

[mci711]

I am currently going through this exact decision. The final round of the week is either going to be at Kingsbarns or Carnoustie. I keep talking myself into Kingsbarns. I look at Carnoustie and it has an amazing history, great challenge, it is historic. Kingsbarns isn't those things. But reading reviews and watching videos I get this feeling that I may walk off that course and think it was the best I have ever played and the most fun. Which has me leaning towards it. If I weren't playing the Old, New, and North Berwick I could see myself thinking differently, and not wanting to play a course that is a decade old. Typing this out it seems I made my decision. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[duffer987]

We did a 36 day at Kingsbarns and 36 (Burnside/Championship) day at Carnoustie a few years back and the six of us were split on who preferred what.

Funnily enough the guy that shot 69 preferred Kingsbarns, those of us that had been to Bandon/played a lot of faux links/like old tracks, preferred Carnoustie.

KB is gorgeous and fun - IIRC I've said in another thread, that it could be the 5th full course at Bandon (well 6th now). I could care less how a course got in the state it's in, but it is absolutely a modern links for better or worse.

Carnoustie is ugly and fun, more fun and challenging that KB. Driving matters there, the last 5 holes are a helluva closing run, and it works through the bag better.

My two rounds at KB were enough for me, whereas I'd certainly play Carnoustie again.

[thecraw]

Carnoustie not memorable?? It's engraved on my mind forever. Astral Weeks over Thriller, not that I dislike Thriller.

 

I'd go Kingsbarns also for the location and scenery. Carnoustie is tough but offers nothing pleasant on the eye. Visual appeal is a huge part of my golfing experience. Kingsbarns on that score wins hands down. You can't even see the sea from Carnoustie!

[dcmidnight]

Carnoustie is a beast but it lacks the visual appeal and impact of Kingbarns which for me is a big part of the overall golf course experience. The last time I was playing Carnoustie the constant pop, pop, pop, bang, bang, pop from the nearby shooting range started to get on my nerves. As a test of golf, miles ahead of Kingbarns. Factoring in other issues and what I like I think I would prefer to play Kingsbarns for the views and location.

 

I'd go Kingsbarns also for the location and scenery. Carnoustie is tough but offers nothing pleasant on the eye. Visual appeal is a huge part of my golfing experience. Kingsbarns on that score wins hands down. You can't even see the sea from Carnoustie!

 

I loved Carnoustie. It was an absolutely amazing and memorable round and I put up some of my best golf of the trip there. I cannot wait to go back and its on my must play list for any future trip.

 

But I agree with all of this.

 

As I mentioned in my trip report, there were holes where I definitely rushed shots, hoping to get them in before the machine gun fire started up again. Its *really* loud on those holes, not like something you hear off in the distance.

 

But lets be honest, we're comparing two A+ courses and trying to pick the better of the two.

[thecraw]

Carnoustie is a beast but it lacks the visual appeal and impact of Kingbarns which for me is a big part of the overall golf course experience. The last time I was playing Carnoustie the constant pop, pop, pop, bang, bang, pop from the nearby shooting range started to get on my nerves. As a test of golf, miles ahead of Kingbarns. Factoring in other issues and what I like I think I would prefer to play Kingsbarns for the views and location.

 

I'd go Kingsbarns also for the location and scenery. Carnoustie is tough but offers nothing pleasant on the eye. Visual appeal is a huge part of my golfing experience. Kingsbarns on that score wins hands down. You can't even see the sea from Carnoustie!

 

I loved Carnoustie. It was an absolutely amazing and memorable round and I put up some of my best golf of the trip there. I cannot wait to go back and its on my must play list for any future trip.

 

But I agree with all of this.

 

As I mentioned in my trip report, there were holes where I definitely rushed shots, hoping to get them in before the machine gun fire started up again. Its *really* loud on those holes, not like something you hear off in the distance.

 

But lets be honest, we're comparing two A+ courses and trying to pick the better of the two.

 

I wasn't even aware that I had already replied to this thread! (Glad I was consistent and didn't contradict myself - that would have been embarrassing!)

 

 

:lazy2:

[ColinKelvin]

Appreciate the responses guys. And davep043 is right on it, we were going to hit another St Andrews course so we can hopefully book an advanced tee time at the Old Course. I was leaning towards the Castle as it's a bit of a contrast to all of the other courses we'll be playing. I'm sure the New Course and Jubilee are great, and they're steeped in history, but I think if we do the Old Course and Carnoustie that something like the Castle will be a breath of fresh air. Here's the list of all the courses we're hoping to hit. She's gonna be a spendy one...

 

Nairn

Royal Dornoch

Struie

Castle Stuart

Cruden Bay

Old Course

Castle

Carnoustie

 

Between these courses and a few distillery tours, we've got our hands full!

 

I'd drop Nairn for Moray Old and drop Cruden Bay for either Royal Aberdeen or Trump.

 

I quite like both Nairn courses but Moray Old is my favourite course here in Scotland. I just love the bunkering and variety of holes from easy to seriously tough.

I spent a few summer holidays with good mates back in the late 80s in a cottage rental in Rothes and played all the courses in the area and had a great time.

It was only £18 for a day ticket on Moray and we played 3 rounds on the same day a few times :-)

 

To the OP - hope you have a fantastic trip.

 

Re: the above - it's very refreshing to see a couple of other posters on here who recommend Moray Old over Nairn. It's a far better, far more varied course, with one of the best finishing holes in golf. It isn't as well marketed (Nairn is a much more wealthy club and can cite a Walker Cup) but it has hosted Home Internationals. Moray Old is a seriously overlooked gem.

[Chanceman]

Not sure how a discussion about Carnoustie and Kingsbarns morphed into one about Moray and Nairn but these days nothing is what it seems.

[ColinKelvin]

Not sure how a discussion about Carnoustie and Kingsbarns morphed into one about Moray and Nairn but these days nothing is what it seems.

 

Possibly because the OP posted his itinerary and people who know the courses are free to give friendly advice?

[ceejay81]

I was able to book both Kingsbarns and Carnoustie for myself in July. Equally looking forward to both. I'm booked as a single, so hopefully I'll be playing with nice, quality folks. Taking a caddie for both rounds as well. Initially I didn't think I'd be able to get on Carnoustie because they weren't super helpful a couple months ago. But I hit them up again in January and they had a couple openings for me to choose from.

[fredstar]

On my third Scotland trip I finally relented and paid the $$$ to play Kingsbarns. It's a fun course but I would not return in a hurry, I just can't justify paying 87 pounds more than the Old Course. I have Played Carnoustie twice, and would always add it to my list when I return, it's a classic.

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

On my third Scotland trip I finally relented and paid the $$$ to play Kingsbarns. It's a fun course but I would not return in a hurry, I just can't justify paying 87 pounds more than the Old Course. I have Played Carnoustie twice, and would always add it to my list when I return, it's a classic.

 

Not really fair to compare other courses’ greens fees with the Old Course’s, which is artificially low. They could charge twice as much if they wanted and fill all of their times. With this cheaper price, we sacrifice availability and flexibility.

 

So, it’s not always a question of “is Kingsbarns worth 288 pounds when I could play the Old Course for 87 less?”, because you don’t actualy have that option for the Old Course unless you get lucky, go in the off season, or want to get up at 2 am and then play without your group.

[fredstar]

On my third Scotland trip I finally relented and paid the $$$ to play Kingsbarns. It's a fun course but I would not return in a hurry, I just can't justify paying 87 pounds more than the Old Course. I have Played Carnoustie twice, and would always add it to my list when I return, it's a classic.

 

Not really fair to compare other courses' greens fees with the Old Course's, which is artificially low. They could charge twice as much if they wanted and fill all of their times. With this cheaper price, we sacrifice availability and flexibility.

 

So, it's not always a question of "is Kingsbarns worth 288 pounds when I could play the Old Course for 87 less?", because you don't actualy have that option for the Old Course unless you get lucky, go in the off season, or want to get up at 2 am and then play without your group.

 

Played TOC two days in a row through the ballot and lining up as a single last August. It isn't totally inaccessible and the fact is the fees were 180 pounds, not what they 'could' be. How about another comparison...is Kingsbarns worth twice the price of North Berwick? (NO)

[duffer987]

On my third Scotland trip I finally relented and paid the $$$ to play Kingsbarns. It's a fun course but I would not return in a hurry, I just can't justify paying 87 pounds more than the Old Course. I have Played Carnoustie twice, and would always add it to my list when I return, it's a classic.

 

Not really fair to compare other courses' greens fees with the Old Course's, which is artificially low. They could charge twice as much if they wanted and fill all of their times. With this cheaper price, we sacrifice availability and flexibility.

 

So, it's not always a question of "is Kingsbarns worth 288 pounds when I could play the Old Course for 87 less?", because you don't actualy have that option for the Old Course unless you get lucky, go in the off season, or want to get up at 2 am and then play without your group.

 

Played TOC two days in a row through the ballot and lining up as a single last August. It isn't totally inaccessible and the fact is the fees were 180 pounds, not what they 'could' be. How about another comparison...is Kingsbarns worth twice the price of North Berwick? (NO)

Indeed. We're not talking about Cypress Point here, it's St. Andrews/TOC. Our (6 golfers) last time there we went 3/4 in the ballot and two of us got an impromptu walk-up round when we stopped by the pavilion to put in our ballots. So we all played it twice in early June - with no prior arrangement - in addition to twice at KB.

 

No one (OK maybe someone has IDK) is saying KB is not a good course. It's a very good course and good fun. But I'm not sure how you discount an argument how someone personally values a course vs another.

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

On my third Scotland trip I finally relented and paid the $$$ to play Kingsbarns. It's a fun course but I would not return in a hurry, I just can't justify paying 87 pounds more than the Old Course. I have Played Carnoustie twice, and would always add it to my list when I return, it's a classic.

 

Not really fair to compare other courses' greens fees with the Old Course's, which is artificially low. They could charge twice as much if they wanted and fill all of their times. With this cheaper price, we sacrifice availability and flexibility.

 

So, it's not always a question of "is Kingsbarns worth 288 pounds when I could play the Old Course for 87 less?", because you don't actualy have that option for the Old Course unless you get lucky, go in the off season, or want to get up at 2 am and then play without your group.

 

Played TOC two days in a row through the ballot and lining up as a single last August. It isn't totally inaccessible and the fact is the fees were 180 pounds, not what they 'could' be. How about another comparison...is Kingsbarns worth twice the price of North Berwick? (NO)

 

So, like I said, you lined up very early and played alone at a random time. That's a true cost that you aren't considering. If you don't consider it a cost that's fine but for most people its a big one.

 

As for North Berwick: It also cost much less than Western Gailes, Prestwick, Royal Aberdeen, Castle Stuart, Gullane, etc. etc.

[TrueBlue4Lyfe]

On my third Scotland trip I finally relented and paid the $$$ to play Kingsbarns. It's a fun course but I would not return in a hurry, I just can't justify paying 87 pounds more than the Old Course. I have Played Carnoustie twice, and would always add it to my list when I return, it's a classic.

 

Not really fair to compare other courses' greens fees with the Old Course's, which is artificially low. They could charge twice as much if they wanted and fill all of their times. With this cheaper price, we sacrifice availability and flexibility.

 

So, it's not always a question of "is Kingsbarns worth 288 pounds when I could play the Old Course for 87 less?", because you don't actualy have that option for the Old Course unless you get lucky, go in the off season, or want to get up at 2 am and then play without your group.

 

Played TOC two days in a row through the ballot and lining up as a single last August. It isn't totally inaccessible and the fact is the fees were 180 pounds, not what they 'could' be. How about another comparison...is Kingsbarns worth twice the price of North Berwick? (NO)

Indeed. We're not talking about Cypress Point here, it's St. Andrews/TOC. Our (6 golfers) last time there we went 3/4 in the ballot and two of us got an impromptu walk-up round when we stopped by the pavilion to put in our ballots. So we all played it twice in early June - with no prior arrangement - in addition to twice at KB.

 

No one (OK maybe someone has IDK) is saying KB is not a good course. It's a very good course and good fun. But I'm not sure how you discount an argument how someone personally values a course vs another.

 

That's good you won the lottery 3/4 times. Many people go for a week in the summer months and don't win once.

 

You guys are also forgetting flexibility and the ability to plan ahead. There's a reason guaranteed tee times go for $1000.

 

For a group of four I could plan a second round at the Old Course or a first round at Kingsbarns, with the goal to be able to play 36 that day. So first I make another tee time for the other course (Eli), let's say in the morning.

 

How do you guys reckon I make sure I get an afternoon tee time on the Old Course for a group of four?

 

I'm kind of in shock this is even a discussion. You guys think everyone has your exact preferences and then can't fathom why your preferences don't dictate market pricing.

[davep043]

 

How do you guys reckon I make sure I get an afternoon tee time on the Old Course for a group of four?

 

The only way you can be certain of having even one tee time on the Old Course is to go through the Advance Reservation System, or pay through the nose through one of the "authorized providers". As you are aware, you can always enter the Ballot, but I'm not sure you have any flexibility to change the time if they allot your group a space. Of course you can reserve (and pre-pay) for a time at Kindsbarns, I don't know if they'll refund your money if you get a "better offer" for the Old Course.

[BUCKEYERBALL88]

What’s a better trip?

 

All links:

North Berwick

Old course

Kingsbarns

Castle Stuart

Dornoch

Cruden bay

 

London heathlands & east lothian:

Sunningdale both

St georges hill

Swinley forest

The old course

North Berwick

Kingsbarns

 

I’m coming from Scottsdale az. Lots of great golf near heathrow. I’d also like to fit in some sightseeing on the continent maybe Stockholm or Madrid.

[Chanceman]

Tough call. If you have not played Sunningdale or Swinley then option 2. They are brilliant courses to savour. On the other hand maybe it would be more efficient to do the London trip some other time and do the Royal Dornoch option while you are in Scotland.

[El Gringo]

As Chanceman states, tough call. I couldn't say either option is better unless travel time is important. I would be inclined to say stick with a more convenient Scottish links trip. If you come back, play some heathland courses mixed with Kent/Sussex links. For mine, the heathland/Kent/Sussex trip is far more appealing than either a strictly Scottish links trip or a mix of heathlands and Scottish links because I consider Sandwich, Deal and Rye to be three of the best 20 courses in GB&I. Throw in Sunny Old and that is four of the top 20 in GB&I with a bevy of other quality courses to choose from. Consider Woking, Pulborough and Walton Heath Old as heathland options. Woking has the best greens around London. Pulborough is simply a classy collection of holes which is pure joy (my personal favourite of the heathlands) and WHO is the only course which approximates what a heathland course should be...with the possible exception of Hankley Common, but WHO is superior. Have fun.

 

Ciao

[Chanceman]

Oh man, how I would love to spend a week or two in Surrey/Sussex/Kent and play every day at The Berkshire, St George, the 3Ws, Tandridge, The Addington, Royal Ashdown, Sandwich/Deal/Rye, Pulborough, Liphook, HK, and any other course I could find the time or money to play. I have played Swinley, Sunningdale Old/New, Walton Heath Old and Woking so I know how good it is in that part of England. Any takers?

[BlueBone]

Oh man, how I would love to spend a week or two in Surrey/Sussex/Kent and play every day at The Berkshire, St George, the 3Ws, Tandridge, The Addington, Royal Ashdown, Sandwich/Deal/Rye, Pulborough, Liphook, HK, and any other course I could find the time or money to play. I have played Swinley, Sunningdale Old/New, Walton Heath Old and Woking so I know how good it is in that part of England. Any takers?

 

I'm coming over from Aus and will be in the area first week in April and first week in June with some time checking out the links in Wales and Lancashire in between. I haven't penciled in any of the courses you mention but always happy to make it up as I go along.

[El Gringo]

Oh man, how I would love to spend a week or two in Surrey/Sussex/Kent and play every day at The Berkshire, St George, the 3Ws, Tandridge, The Addington, Royal Ashdown, Sandwich/Deal/Rye, Pulborough, Liphook, HK, and any other course I could find the time or money to play. I have played Swinley, Sunningdale Old/New, Walton Heath Old and Woking so I know how good it is in that part of England. Any takers?

 

I'm coming over from Aus and will be in the area first week in April and first week in June with some time checking out the links in Wales and Lancashire in between. I haven't penciled in any of the courses you mention but always happy to make it up as I go along.

 

If you are heading to/from Aberdovey/Harlech from England, be sure to play Welshpool. It is a superb Braid course on top of a hill with many outstanding holes and great scenery.

 

If you are playing in southwest Wales, try St Davids (as in the city, not Harlech) or Clyne (quite close to Pennard...which should be your #1 stop in Wales).

 

Ciao

[duffer987]

Oh man, how I would love to spend a week or two in Surrey/Sussex/Kent and play every day at The Berkshire, St George, the 3Ws, Tandridge, The Addington, Royal Ashdown, Sandwich/Deal/Rye, Pulborough, Liphook, HK, and any other course I could find the time or money to play. I have played Swinley, Sunningdale Old/New, Walton Heath Old and Woking so I know how good it is in that part of England. Any takers?

 

I'm coming over from Aus and will be in the area first week in April and first week in June with some time checking out the links in Wales and Lancashire in between. I haven't penciled in any of the courses you mention but always happy to make it up as I go along.

 

If you are heading to/from Aberdovey/Harlech from England, be sure to play Welshpool. It is a superb Braid course on top of a hill with many outstanding holes and great scenery.

 

If you are playing in southwest Wales, try St Davids (as in the city, not Harlech) or Clyne (quite close to Pennard...which should be your #1 stop in Wales).

 

Ciao

How does Clyne compare to Southerndown? I played it, Porthcawl, and Pennard while in the neighbourhood a few years ago and adding in another option is never a bad thing.

[El Gringo]

Oh man, how I would love to spend a week or two in Surrey/Sussex/Kent and play every day at The Berkshire, St George, the 3Ws, Tandridge, The Addington, Royal Ashdown, Sandwich/Deal/Rye, Pulborough, Liphook, HK, and any other course I could find the time or money to play. I have played Swinley, Sunningdale Old/New, Walton Heath Old and Woking so I know how good it is in that part of England. Any takers?

 

I'm coming over from Aus and will be in the area first week in April and first week in June with some time checking out the links in Wales and Lancashire in between. I haven't penciled in any of the courses you mention but always happy to make it up as I go along.

 

If you are heading to/from Aberdovey/Harlech from England, be sure to play Welshpool. It is a superb Braid course on top of a hill with many outstanding holes and great scenery.

 

If you are playing in southwest Wales, try St Davids (as in the city, not Harlech) or Clyne (quite close to Pennard...which should be your #1 stop in Wales).

 

Ciao

How does Clyne compare to Southerndown? I played it, Porthcawl, and Pennard while in the neighbourhood a few years ago and adding in another option is never a bad thing.

 

Despite being a Colt design, Clyne is less polished than S'down, more forgiving (animals graze the the course) and au naturel. There are some typical Colt greens that are built up with some interesting surrounds. The turf is quite similar to S'down, sort of moorland come downland...drains quite well. I like it, but Clyne is really about being in the neighbourhood and looking for a cheap and cheerful game....a good trip filler to get off the tourist trail. S'down is one of my top three favourites for Wales along with Welshpool and Pennard. I haven't played S'down it some years now, so I wouldn't comment on conditions. I will say this, wear shorts or old trousers when playing S'down!

 

Ciao

[duffer987]

^Thanks for that :)

Southerndown was very enjoyable and fun but with some bite if you got wayward, joined up with a member on the back and had a sensible post-round Doombar and reckoned it's one of those places I could see myself being a member.

[Matt J]

^Thanks for that :)

Southerndown was very enjoyable and fun but with some bite if you got wayward, joined up with a member on the back and had a sensible post-round Doombar and reckoned it's one of those places I could see myself being a member.

 

Love your quote above about "faux links" vs. "real links." I'm not a label guy, golf is golf and great golf is great golf. But, there is a certain authenticity to a place like Carnoustie that Bandon will never have. My playing partner last week at Carnoustie is a local guy who I hooked up with from the WRX forums and he is coming to visit to play Bandon. We had quite the chat about the differences and outside the very obvious which is the quality of the putting surfaces, designs of the bunkers, and the quality and thickness of the fairway turf, there is simply how "contrived" is the design? That discussion was very prevalent over in East Lothian with The Renaissance Club getting the Scottish Open. My $.02 is that we have exported our rather peculiar obsession with the concept of par. The crazy, only with a bulldozer, fairway rolls, are to punish the long hitters which I find unreasonable even though I'm not that long. Good shots should nearly always be rewarded and poor shots you get what you get.