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X-stiff or stiff


mizunotpz

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Hi!

 

Looking at a great deal on a Taylor Made M2 2016 driver. My swing speed is about 100-102, the shaft is a Diamana S60+ blue x-stiff. I like my shaft

on a driver to feel a little boardy, but would an x-stiff for my swing speed, and moderate tempo, be too much to handle. I tried a x-stiff shaft like 10 years ago, a V2 and remember that felt quite stiff.

 

Thanks!!

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Not enough speed for that shaft.

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Srixon F45 4-wood, 17*, Kuro Kage 606 S
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TXG Custom PXG 0211 6-pw, 1* upright, Recoil E460 R
PXG 0211 GW, 50*, (new version), UST Recoil Dart R
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Ping Glide 4.0 58*, Nippon 115 
TXG Custom Cobra Nova, KBS CT Tour Shaft

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Consider head weight and playing length as well

What would be standard head weight? The length of that is like 45.5, its standard length. How would that affect you mean?

 

If you played it shorter and added weight to bring up swing weight, the shaft will play softer.

 

With that being said, the diamana blue 60 isnt an very stout profile, so may not be a big deal.

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Consider head weight and playing length as well

What would be standard head weight? The length of that is like 45.5, its standard length. How would that affect you mean?

 

If you played it shorter and added weight to bring up swing weight, the shaft will play softer.

 

With that being said, the diamana blue 60 isnt an very stout profile, so may not be a big deal.

No, and I mostly react to shafts thats very tip stiff, and this shaft isnt, more like butt stiff. But thanks for the info. Cause I will most likely shorten the shaft in the butt end and add some weight to the head.

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You'll be fine with that shaft. I've hovered between 100 - 110 for years now and have always played x-flex shafts, in nearly all clubs.....just more confidence to go after it :)

 

Driver: still looking.....
4 Wood: Kamui Pro TP-XF 17.5° + Fujikura Speeder Evolution VI FW70x @ 42 1/2".

7 Wood: Kamui Pro TP-XF 22.5° + Fujikura Speeder Evolution VI FW80x @ 41 3/4".
Irons: Kamui Pro KP-102 5i-PW + KBS TGI 110 + 1/2".
Wedges: Callaway Jaws Forged 50°/55°/60° + KBS C-Taper
Putter: SeeMore SB1 + Accra FX300.

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You'll be fine with that shaft. I've hovered between 100 - 110 for years now and have always played x-flex shafts, in nearly all clubs.....just more confidence to go after it :)

haha, thats what Im thinking. Trying to find more fairways this season. Thanks for your input. If you never try youll never find out.

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it honestly comes down to preference and #'s. But the standard for xstiff is usually 110ish and up.

 

There is no real standard, those are just guidelines. Really depends on the player and how they load the shaft. Profile matters as well.

Yes thats what Im thinking also, like a Bassara 40 gram shaft might play softer in x stiff than a Tensei white in stiff. And as you say I could easily find a similar shaft in stiff and maybe even exchange it with someone who wants to go stiffer. But Im like you, I prefer to go straight and slightly shorter and not that duck hook. Hate it.

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Swing speed only part of the story, but that speed usually would be more likely to be a stiff fit. Violent or fast transitions can push people into next flex up if sort of borderline, not sure if that is borderline though. That being said, if you use a 70 stiff then maybe a 60 xstiff wouldn't necessarily be tremendously different. Just my 2c, far from an expert.

Titleist TSi3 8*, Tensei AV White 65X

Cobra Big Tour 3W, Project X HZRDUS RDX Blue 70X

Ping G425 19* 3H, LA Golf Tour AXS Red 85X

Taylormade UDI 3i, Diamana Thump 100X

Taylormade p790 5-AW, C-Taper 130X

Titleist Vokey SM7 52* 10S bent to 53

Titleist Vokey SM7 56* 8M bent to 57

Titleist Vokey SM7 60* 12D

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You can try stiff shaft tipped.

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If you're over 100 no probs with that shaft

Ping G400 LST 11* Ventus Black TR 5x

Ping G400 3w 15.1* GD AD IZ 5x

Ping G400 7w 19.5* Ventus Red 6x 

Ping G425 4h 22* Blueboard HY 80x

Ping i210 6i & s55 7i - PW Steelfiber 110s

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I was in this situation. Self-fit for the past few years, 105-112 mph swing speed, always had more success with X shafts, they always seemed to go straighter for me. BUT I always felt like I had to really gear up to hit it. On cold days, and in early/late in the year, I was more inconsistent but attributed that to not being in "mid season form". Fact of the matter is I probably couldn't swing fast enough in the cold to load the shaft properly. This year I decided to get fit as my driver was only going about 250-260 even though I was crushing it. Old guys were out driving me with visibly slower speeds.

 

I went from:

 

Ping G 9* Speeder 757 X-stiff (77g low launch) D1

to

TS3 8.5* Kiyoshi Purple 75 stiff (79g high launch) D4

 

Down in flex, up in launch, up slightly shaft weight and swing weight, and down in loft. You would think that going down in flex and up in launch that I would be hitting the ball super high (I was already a high ball hitter even with the 757 in X), but it was the opposite. By having the correct weight and flex, I was able to load the shaft properly which lowered my trajectory. I was swinging my 757 X at 105mph and the Kiyoshi Purple at 112mph. The softer shaft alone got me tons of ball speed and yardage. Having a well-fit shaft also enabled me to use a low spin head, instead of a head with max forgiveness, which got me even more yards. My strategy had been to use a super forgiving head with a super stiff shaft to kill the spin, but that was not ideal for me and actually backfired and produced way too much spin, even though I was very accurate with it.

 

Stats were something like:

 

Gamer:

105 swing speed, 150 ball speed, 120 ft height, 260 carry 270 total (on my absolutely best, not sharing my avgs) playing a FADE

New Driver:

112 swing speed, 160 ball speed, 75 ft height, 270 carry 300 total (on my averages!) playing a DRAW

 

note: I did nothing to go from a fade to a draw other than the shaft change. I typically play a draw in all my clubs except driver, which happens to be my only club that was X flex, you do the math..

 

Bottom line: stiffer shafts do not always mean lower launch and less spin, and swing speed does not always dictate shaft flex. Check your ego, going down in flex gave me more swing speed and ball speed. Find a softer shaft you can control and you might be pleasantly surprised.

G400 LST 8.5* Ventus Blue 6x 🐐 
UW 17* Smoke 70s

Fli-Hi 19* Smoke 80s
223 4-G KBS Tour 120s
RTX ZC 56.12 / 60.09 ff DG Spinner

FTP SM1 0* loft / 400g / SS GT 1.0 

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For your 100MPH Swing Speed, Stiff is just perfect for you. Your swing speed has to be at least 110 to handle xstiff. But that is ultimately up to you, if that xstiff feels fine to you, then go with it.

10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft (Stiff flex)
Titleist 990 (3-PW) with stock Dynamic Gold in S300
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts (Regular Flex)
2011 Adams Tom Watson signature wedges in 52 and 56 degrees with stock steel shafts (Player's Grind)
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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Sorry, don't listen to anyone that tells you you should or should not get that shaft just based on the swing speed. Swing speed only gives a possible starting point in the fitting process, nothing more.

 

I know it's winter but if it's a demo, any way you can actually demo it to test how it feels and performs for you? Even indoors on a LM would get you the answers you need. That's the only way to tell

 

But also keep in mind that if it really is that good of a price, it might be worth it to get the club even if you have to change shafts to get the most out of it. It's really not that hard or expensive to convert an older shaft you've used and still have (and know works) to use it in the new head.

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You'll be fine with that shaft. I've hovered between 100 - 110 for years now and have always played x-flex shafts, in nearly all clubs.....just more confidence to go after it :)

haha, thats what Im thinking. Trying to find more fairways this season. Thanks for your input. If you never try youll never find out.

 

There is a huge difference between 100 and 110 mph. At 102 you are pushing yourself with the Diamana +. A consistent and smooth 105+ would be better or a lighter shaft like the VA Composites Raijin 44 in X flex. Callaway's extensive robot and low handicap swing tests determined that shaft weight is much more important than flex.

Club Champion Custom Callaway AI Smoke 11*, Aldila Ascent 40 Gram, A Flex

Srixon F45 4-wood, 17*, Kuro Kage 606 S
TXG Custom  SIM Max 7-wood, Accra FX 140 2.0 M2

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TXG Custom PXG 0211 6-pw, 1* upright, Recoil E460 R
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TXG Custom Cleveland CBX 54*, Tour Issue DG Spinner 115 

Ping Glide 4.0 58*, Nippon 115 
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You'll be fine with that shaft. I've hovered between 100 - 110 for years now and have always played x-flex shafts, in nearly all clubs.....just more confidence to go after it :)

haha, thats what Im thinking. Trying to find more fairways this season. Thanks for your input. If you never try youll never find out.

 

There is a huge difference between 100 and 110 mph. At 102 you are pushing yourself with the Diamana +. A consistent and smooth 105+ would be better or a lighter shaft like the VA Composites Raijin 44 in X flex. Callaway's extensive robot and low handicap swing tests determined that shaft weight is much more important than flex.

 

Yes, there are exceptions but generally weight is much more important than flex. But there is no way to know or even guess at what point the OP will be 'pushing' it or not.

 

A corollary to flex not being generally as important is that there is no ideal or right or wrong amount of loading in a shaft. There is nothing wrong with not getting a certain amount or very much loading in a shaft if it happens to be "too stiff" compared to what most people expect - as long as the feel doesn't cause problems with the swing. And that's where the exceptions come to play. And there certainly are people who have to get a certain feel out of the shaft in order to get good results. For those people too stiff and too soft are very important things that need to be avoided.

 

But just because some people have that problem and might push themselves too much when they get a shaft that feels too stiff doesn't mean everyone will. Lots of folks can still continue to put a good consistent swing on the shaft even if it might be considered too stiff by some others. And even for those that do, the point at which it becomes too stiff is going to be different for everyone.

 

In fact, I think it was Sneed who couldn't stand to feel ANY give or loading in the shaft and made them as stiff as he possibly could.

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I find profile, weight, and balance to make more of a difference for me. In driver I like something that's more of the one-piece stout feel, fairways I like a smoother feel. We had a Titleist demo day at my club not too long ago and I found I reacted to different shaft profiles more differently than I did when changing flex within the same shaft. Likewise, I reacted more to a change in weight than I did to a change in flex.

 

At about 100 MPH with a Blue Board 60, shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Titleist TS4 8.5* Diamana D+ LTD 70 X
Titleist 917F2 18* (turned down to 17.25*) Diamana S+ 80X
4 - 718 Titleist AP3 Project X 6.0
4-P 718 Titleist AP2 Project X 6.0
White Satin Mizuno MP T7 51-08 Modus 3 105X
Blue Ion Mizuno MP T7 55-09 Modus 3 105X Soft Stepped
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SS has some to do with it, but in general transition plays a bigger role in what stiffness to play in what I have seen or heard of in most fittings. I am not a fitter, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn so take this with a grain of salt.

 

For instance, I have a rather rough transition, I also do swing around 115 and I play an X flex in the driver and throughout my entire set. One of my best buds SS is roughly 113 and plays R and S flex shafts throughout his set. His transition is much smoother and between that and the fact that his body feels better swinging a softer shaft it is what fits him best.

 

One other big factor, one companies S is another companies X is another companies R. I will say I have seen better tolerances in manufacturers standards within flex for each model, but there are still variances there as well.

  • Driver - Ping G430 Max 10k - Ventus Black 6X | Ping G430 LST 10.5 - Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI TX
  • 3 Wood - Taylormade 300 Mini 13.5 - Ventus Purple X
  • 5 Wood - Ping G430 Max - Ventus Purple X 
  • 7 Wood - Ping G430 Max - Ventus Purple X | 4 iron - Srixon ZX4 MKII - Axiom 105X
  • 5 - GW Cobra King Tour - Axiom 105X
  • SW - Cleveland RTX6 55* - Fuji Tour Spec 115X | LW - Vokey SM9T 60* - Fuji Tour Spec 115X
  • Putters - Odyssey #7 Knuckle Neck Proto | Odyssey Jailbird Versa Microhinge - Odyssey Tank DBOdyssey Jailbird Ai-One
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Hey guys, good thread going on here and I am in a similar dilemma. My SS is generally between 105-109 and Ive been playing stiff shafts that were on the lighter end (around 55g) for a long time. I'm a smaller guy around 5'5 but have always been able to move the ball out there a good way(295 average). Being smaller, ive always felt much more comfortable in the lighter shafts bc once I get into the 65-75g range the club kinda starts swinging me so to speak. Ive always been a Ping man... And there stock stiff 55g shafts are always pretty decent but have a tendency (for me) to be fairly "whippy". Natural ball flight is a mid to mid-high draw...and with the stock stiff I tend to hook the ball far too often. Ive messed with some aftermarket shafts such as the Fujikura Vista pro stiff 55g and found the same issue. Ive been looking into the lighter x-stiff shafts... And even hit a bucket with a friends Taylormade M3 with a Tensei CK50 x-stiff and loved how the shaft felt but it wasnt in my Ping G400 LST. Anyone have thoughts on a good lighter x-stiff shaft? Ive read on here about the Graphite Design AD IZ 5x, Kuro Kage tini, Atmos Red etc... But see if anyone had some feedback before I pulled the trigger on anything.

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I was in this situation. Self-fit for the past few years, 105-112 mph swing speed, always had more success with X shafts, they always seemed to go straighter for me. BUT I always felt like I had to really gear up to hit it. On cold days, and in early/late in the year, I was more inconsistent but attributed that to not being in "mid season form". Fact of the matter is I probably couldn't swing fast enough in the cold to load the shaft properly. This year I decided to get fit as my driver was only going about 250-260 even though I was crushing it. Old guys were out driving me with visibly slower speeds.

 

I went from:

 

Ping G 9* Speeder 757 X-stiff (77g low launch) D1

to

TS3 8.5* Kiyoshi Purple 75 stiff (79g high launch) D4

 

Down in flex, up in launch, up slightly shaft weight and swing weight, and down in loft. You would think that going down in flex and up in launch that I would be hitting the ball super high (I was already a high ball hitter even with the 757 in X), but it was the opposite. By having the correct weight and flex, I was able to load the shaft properly which lowered my trajectory. I was swinging my 757 X at 105mph and the Kiyoshi Purple at 112mph. The softer shaft alone got me tons of ball speed and yardage. Having a well-fit shaft also enabled me to use a low spin head, instead of a head with max forgiveness, which got me even more yards. My strategy had been to use a super forgiving head with a super stiff shaft to kill the spin, but that was not ideal for me and actually backfired and produced way too much spin, even though I was very accurate with it.

 

Stats were something like:

 

Gamer:

105 swing speed, 150 ball speed, 120 ft height, 260 carry 270 total (on my absolutely best, not sharing my avgs) playing a FADE

New Driver:

112 swing speed, 160 ball speed, 75 ft height, 270 carry 300 total (on my averages!) playing a DRAW

 

note: I did nothing to go from a fade to a draw other than the shaft change. I typically play a draw in all my clubs except driver, which happens to be my only club that was X flex, you do the math..

 

Bottom line: stiffer shafts do not always mean lower launch and less spin, and swing speed does not always dictate shaft flex. Check your ego, going down in flex gave me more swing speed and ball speed. Find a softer shaft you can control and you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

And I am the exact opposite. I always knew I was sort of border line, so played slightly softer shafts, (foolishly) listening to the "play the softest shaft you can control". I played an ADDI 6X (known to play soft) and soft stepped modus 120X (also known to be soft). My miss is an over draw with irons and sometimes a hook/block with driver.

 

With how I load the shaft early, both of those shafts simply don't work with my swing. I sense the shaft loading early and head lagging behind and then try to save it with my hands. This not only introduced excess curve but also ultimately slowed me down since if I went after it harder, I would miss more left and thus try to steer it the next time. I never really got up there too much swing speed wise, so never thought I was simply over-powering the shaft.

 

Ended up with a speeder 757X in driver and oban CT115X in the irons. Both are much stiffer in the handle section so I don't sense the load as much and thus keep the face more square. More active tip to promote launch since I'm no longer trying to save it with my hands. I can now go after it and not fear the big left miss, so I'm actually swinging the club faster. I was 106-109 with the ADDI, currently can get the 757X up to 113 with nothing really slower than 110. 6I is similar, was swinging my gamers 90-92, now can peak at 95-96. Carrying a little fall off fade 275+ instead of a low over-draw/hook 250ish.

 

Going purely by flex at some arbitrary speed doesn't really work for me, much more important to find the right profile for your swing/tempo.

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Sorry, don't listen to anyone that tells you you should or should not get that shaft just based on the swing speed. Swing speed only gives a possible starting point in the fitting process, nothing more.

 

I know it's winter but if it's a demo, any way you can actually demo it to test how it feels and performs for you? Even indoors on a LM would get you the answers you need. That's the only way to tell

 

But also keep in mind that if it really is that good of a price, it might be worth it to get the club even if you have to change shafts to get the most out of it. It's really not that hard or expensive to convert an older shaft you've used and still have (and know works) to use it in the new head.

Thank you Stuart G, you always give great answers. I see this as a good deal combined with an interesting experiment and try different things. There is no good fitter in my area, I know since I been to both of them and wasnt happy. They only wanted to sell me a new club, not to help into a good club for me. So if this shaft doesnt work it wont be that hard to find another shaft and sell this one or trade with someone.

 

Do you remember the old V2 shaft? Only x-stiff I tried, but if I remember correctly that was a shaft with a stiffer profile than this Diamana blue Im looking at. I also heard that the modern version of Diamana blues has a softer profile than the original Diamana blueboard. But dont know if thats correct?

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