Early extension (Goat Humping)

[Coy M]

the arms shallow but the shaft is still steep. if you didn't stand up you'd stick it in the ground before the ball. i'm not an expert, but on the takeaway looks like you fan the face open. keep the face looking at the ball longer, and get the face more square to slightly closed on downswing. you can then just rotate through without the need to use hands to flip the club shut

 

I was looking at my swing last night and noticed that on the backswing the club face is almost vertical when the shaft is parallel to the ground. I've seen conflicting views on this in all the youtube tutorials I've watched, but I don't think it would hurt to try to experiment with having the club face match the spine angle (more closed) when the shaft is parallel.

Thanks!

 

Once you fan the club open then you have to manipulate the club face on the way down to square it back up at impact.

[jholz]

Interesting thread. I've struggled with goat humping for quite some time, and maintaining posture is clearly the solution. Early extension is a loss of posture, after all.

 

The "left shoulder low" concept seems like a viable feel for maintaining posture. I've seen the "crunch" move discussed before, but that didn't really resonate the same way.

 

Since low point control is something I've always struggled with as well, it seems like this might be a good thing for me to work on. Gonna have to fiddle around with it during the spring warm up.

[Golfjack]

Look here, around impact your left hip should have rotated out and up a little too. Instead you are still humping. You want to see more of the left butt cheek.

 

Foto won't load, but Google any pro golf impact position and you will see this. I think u should fix this first before you worry about shallow etc. Since it will change a lot of things. In fact thru impact you need to maintain your spine angle, or rather add side bend.

[glk]

But there has to be rotation?? Yes you squat and jump but you HAVE to create rotation and I think he's saying you can create A LOT of rotation with toque. Get to top of back swing and when starting down swing you squat, rotate and then extend.

The amount of rotation varies a lot. I don’t see a correlation between how much you rotate and swing speed. Maybe someone did a study but I’m unaware.

Pro clearly get open but some are only 20* other 50* Brian gay has won 8 or 9 times and he goat humps with the best. John senden has some goat in him and is an excellent ballstriker. Joe miller win long drive and he has serious goat humping. Furyk gets more open thenmost yet is short on tour.

 

Lead foot vertical force at shaft vertical has been correlated with swing speed.

That why I said rotation is not the critical factor to me and chasing more rotation is time misspent if one already has sufficient. Better to look at pressure movement.

[NikeGolferTX]

But there has to be rotation?? Yes you squat and jump but you HAVE to create rotation and I think he's saying you can create A LOT of rotation with toque. Get to top of back swing and when starting down swing you squat, rotate and then extend.

The amount of rotation varies a lot. I don’t see a correlation between how much you rotate and swing speed. Maybe someone did a study but I’m unaware.

Pro clearly get open but some are only 20* other 50* Brian gay has won 8 or 9 times and he goat humps with the best. John senden has some goat in him and is an excellent ballstriker. Joe miller win long drive and he has serious goat humping. Furyk gets more open thenmost yet is short on tour.

 

Lead foot vertical force at shaft vertical has been correlated with swing speed.

That why I said rotation is not the critical factor to me and chasing more rotation is time misspent if one already has sufficient. Better to look at pressure movement.

 

More rotation is correlated with accuracy which is far more important than speed. See Furyk with the lowest PGA score ever.

 

The idea of more rotation is to eliminate club face rotation. Getting the body rotating through impact allows for the hands to play a more passive role, thus allowing for a quieter clubface through the strike.

[finleysg]

This video is very helpful. The pressure mat plus the girl golfer who had EE definitely helped visualize the issue. Now to put it in practice....

 

Thanks!

 

Let me know if it works! Show me a video of the result! Also, I was struggling with EE and goat humping for years. Putting the pressure on your heels might result in your hands coming in the slot feel a little foreign (at first), but just keep finding something that feels comfortable until you see the result you like.

 

I hope this works out for you!

 

I tried to do this last night at the range, unfortunately when I was doing what felt like the squatting motion during the downswing I was consistently hitting the mat before the ball. Then when I was finally making good contact, I was back to my old swing with EE just less hip depth.

 

I think I need drills more specific to rotating on the downswing. My guess is (I should've taken video here and didn't) on the squatting shots where I was hitting mat/ball I was stalling the hips so when I did extend it could only hit behind the ball.

 

I've signed up for a lesson on Wednesday night so hopefully the pro at the range can watch and provide some feedback too.

 

It's possible that you were actually improving your posture and hip work, but with no corresponding shallowing move. EE is a shallowing move, so if you remove that from your swing without doing anything else, you're going to bury the club behind the ball. Key word: "possible".

[glk]

But there has to be rotation?? Yes you squat and jump but you HAVE to create rotation and I think he's saying you can create A LOT of rotation with toque. Get to top of back swing and when starting down swing you squat, rotate and then extend.

The amount of rotation varies a lot. I don’t see a correlation between how much you rotate and swing speed. Maybe someone did a study but I’m unaware.

Pro clearly get open but some are only 20* other 50* Brian gay has won 8 or 9 times and he goat humps with the best. John senden has some goat in him and is an excellent ballstriker. Joe miller win long drive and he has serious goat humping. Furyk gets more open thenmost yet is short on tour.

 

Lead foot vertical force at shaft vertical has been correlated with swing speed.

That why I said rotation is not the critical factor to me and chasing more rotation is time misspent if one already has sufficient. Better to look at pressure movement.

 

More rotation is correlated with accuracy which is far more important than speed. See Furyk with the lowest PGA score ever.

 

The idea of more rotation is to eliminate club face rotation. Getting the body rotating through impact allows for the hands to play a more passive role, thus allowing for a quieter clubface through the strike.

Do you have a reference for this?

[Golfjack]

But there has to be rotation?? Yes you squat and jump but you HAVE to create rotation and I think he's saying you can create A LOT of rotation with toque. Get to top of back swing and when starting down swing you squat, rotate and then extend.

The amount of rotation varies a lot. I don't see a correlation between how much you rotate and swing speed. Maybe someone did a study but I'm unaware.

Pro clearly get open but some are only 20* other 50* Brian gay has won 8 or 9 times and he goat humps with the best. John senden has some goat in him and is an excellent ballstriker. Joe miller win long drive and he has serious goat humping. Furyk gets more open thenmost yet is short on tour.

 

Lead foot vertical force at shaft vertical has been correlated with swing speed.

That why I said rotation is not the critical factor to me and chasing more rotation is time misspent if one already has sufficient. Better to look at pressure movement.

 

More rotation is correlated with accuracy which is far more important than speed. See Furyk with the lowest PGA score ever.

 

The idea of more rotation is to eliminate club face rotation. Getting the body rotating through impact allows for the hands to play a more passive role, thus allowing for a quieter clubface through the strike.

Do you have a reference for this?

It's pretty well known. That, and if it really was better and more accurate teachers would be teaching goat humping. When you see a lot of pro's talking about it accuracy and consistency is a big pro for a more rotational swing.

[glk]

But there has to be rotation?? Yes you squat and jump but you HAVE to create rotation and I think he's saying you can create A LOT of rotation with toque. Get to top of back swing and when starting down swing you squat, rotate and then extend.

The amount of rotation varies a lot. I don't see a correlation between how much you rotate and swing speed. Maybe someone did a study but I'm unaware.

Pro clearly get open but some are only 20* other 50* Brian gay has won 8 or 9 times and he goat humps with the best. John senden has some goat in him and is an excellent ballstriker. Joe miller win long drive and he has serious goat humping. Furyk gets more open thenmost yet is short on tour.

 

Lead foot vertical force at shaft vertical has been correlated with swing speed.

That why I said rotation is not the critical factor to me and chasing more rotation is time misspent if one already has sufficient. Better to look at pressure movement.

 

More rotation is correlated with accuracy which is far more important than speed. See Furyk with the lowest PGA score ever.

 

The idea of more rotation is to eliminate club face rotation. Getting the body rotating through impact allows for the hands to play a more passive role, thus allowing for a quieter clubface through the strike.

Do you have a reference for this?

It's pretty well known. That, and if it really was better and more accurate teachers would be teaching goat humping. When you see a lot of pro's talking about it accuracy and consistency is a big pro for a more rotational swing.

I’m aware if cheethams phd and he found no correlation existed. Lo twist guys we’re more open. Then high twist but accuracy and driving distance had no correlation

So again what reference?

[Golfjack]

I'm aware if cheethams phd and he found no correlation existed. Lo twist guys we're more open. Then high twist but accuracy and driving distance had no correlation

So again what reference?

 

That's interesting I've never seen this (Cheetham). I think it's partially selection bias if he's choosing tour guys as these are guys who are able to perform their craft to an extreme. These are guys who have made it work, and not an analysis of a sample of high twist golfers which includes some pro golfers in the population. Same for low twist. I know it's virtually impossible to conduct a golf study as such, but I think that's the sample that would tell a better story. I mean, as personally someone who has tried both, I can say that the high twist gives me just as much or even more speed and I've played real good (for me) golf using that method versus low twist which is fast but from my shots is much more consistent, as in my misses won't snap off the face of the earth type.

 

However, don't you think that tour guys being more prevalent in low twist either prove that (a) they've all been taught the same way or (b) teachers have found that the low twist produces better results? Just because one guy wrote a PhD dissertation doesn't invalid other people's causes (I've seen books written by PhD's on this as well, but didn't look into the details).

 

Jeff Mann wrote a critical analysis of Cheetham's dissertation. Not sure if I agree with some of his points but it's a different point of view. http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Cheetham.htm

[glk]

I'm aware if cheethams phd and he found no correlation existed. Lo twist guys we're more open. Then high twist but accuracy and driving distance had no correlation

So again what reference?

 

That's interesting I've never seen this (Cheetham). I think it's partially selection bias if he's choosing tour guys as these are guys who are able to perform their craft to an extreme. These are guys who have made it work, and not an analysis of a sample of high twist golfers which includes some pro golfers in the population. Same for low twist. I know it's virtually impossible to conduct a golf study as such, but I think that's the sample that would tell a better story. I mean, as personally someone who has tried both, I can say that the high twist gives me just as much or even more speed and I've played real good (for me) golf using that method versus low twist which is fast but from my shots is much more consistent, as in my misses won't snap off the face of the earth type.

 

However, don't you think that tour guys being more prevalent in low twist either prove that (a) they've all been taught the same way or (b) teachers have found that the low twist produces better results? Just because one guy wrote a PhD dissertation doesn't invalid other people's causes (I've seen books written by PhD's on this as well, but didn't look into the details).

 

Jeff Mann wrote a critical analysis of Cheetham's dissertation. Not sure if I agree with some of his points but it's a different point of view. http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Cheetham.htm

I have never found any other research , google hasn’t been good for me. Hoping to see if someone had found some so that is why I asked about references.

I don’t have any knowledge of the percents of hi vs low handle twist golfers on tour. Seems to me guys on tour have lots of similarities but still do things in different degrees and different times during the swing. Dont have an opinion on your questions other than maybe or maybe not. - pretty decisive ,eh.

 

[golfing_programmer]

Update: I appreciate everyone posting to this thread and helping me out. After 3 sessions at the range, I have made some progress. Hopefully my lesson this evening will continue moving me in the right direction.

 

Initial:

 

 

 

First Change of Standing more upright:

 

 

 

Last Night trying to work on rotation:

 

[thejazzmarauder]

The visual/feel I'm using to eliminate early extension (and keep right knee back) is leaving a butt-fingerprint on the wall. During the backswing, your right buttcheek should wipe the wall behind you, towards the target. Then you leave a fingerprint with your butt during transition WITHOUT moving right hip/buttcheek. The key to the whole thing is only wiping the wall once (towards target) with that right cheek, not twice (towards and then away from the target). This gives you a natural and gradual weight transfer, and the classic "bump" of the lead hip without resulting in a slide.

 

If you struggle with EE, try this out.

[thejazzmarauder]

Update: I appreciate everyone posting to this thread and helping me out. After 3 sessions at the range, I have made some progress. Hopefully my lesson this evening will continue moving me in the right direction.

 

Initial:

 

 

 

First Change of Standing more upright:

 

 

 

Last Night trying to work on rotation:

 

Looks a lot better. Has your ball flight and/or consistency improved?

[golfing_programmer]

The visual/feel I'm using to eliminate early extension (and keep right knee back) is leaving a butt-fingerprint on the wall. During the backswing, your right buttcheek should wipe the wall behind you, towards the target. Then you leave a fingerprint with your butt during transition WITHOUT moving right hip/buttcheek. The key to the whole thing is only wiping the wall once with that right cheek, not twice (towards and then away from the target).

 

If you struggle with EE, try this out.

 

I have to try this drill again, I haven't done it since I started standing more upright.

 

What I was doing last night was what I thought George Gankas tells his students, which is to "tuck your butt." I guess it forces you to move your hips out of the way because they can't go much closer to the ball.

[golfing_programmer]

Update: I appreciate everyone posting to this thread and helping me out. After 3 sessions at the range, I have made some progress. Hopefully my lesson this evening will continue moving me in the right direction.

 

Initial:

 

 

 

First Change of Standing more upright:

 

 

 

Last Night trying to work on rotation:

 

Looks a lot better. Has your ball flight and/or consistency improved?

 

I found that if I really focused and slowed down, I was able to get good results in flight/consistency. Something that helped a lot was going to left arm parallel, pausing, then continuing back slightly more before starting the downswing (the last image is a result of this). When I tried to go after it, I resorted to old habits.

[thejazzmarauder]

Update: I appreciate everyone posting to this thread and helping me out. After 3 sessions at the range, I have made some progress. Hopefully my lesson this evening will continue moving me in the right direction.

 

Initial:

 

 

 

First Change of Standing more upright:

 

 

 

Last Night trying to work on rotation:

 

Looks a lot better. Has your ball flight and/or consistency improved?

 

I found that if I really focused and slowed down, I was able to get good results in flight/consistency. Something that helped a lot was going to left arm parallel, pausing, then continuing back slightly more before starting the downswing (the last image is a result of this). When I tried to go after it, I resorted to old habits.

Go leave a butt fingerprint on the closest wall while pretending you're swinging a club and tell me what you think. Don't move the right hip once you've already wiped the wall; start the butt-print there.

[Golfjack]

Update: I appreciate everyone posting to this thread and helping me out. After 3 sessions at the range, I have made some progress. Hopefully my lesson this evening will continue moving me in the right direction.

 

Initial:

 

 

 

First Change of Standing more upright:

 

 

 

Last Night trying to work on rotation:

 

Looks a lot better. Has your ball flight and/or consistency improved?

 

I found that if I really focused and slowed down, I was able to get good results in flight/consistency. Something that helped a lot was going to left arm parallel, pausing, then continuing back slightly more before starting the downswing (the last image is a result of this). When I tried to go after it, I resorted to old habits.

 

Yeah that last night picture looked great. It's common when you go after it to go back to old habits. We all do it. You have to be really mindful of your movements before it becomes second nature. Many coaches will advocate quarter/half swings at slower speeds and gradually build up from there. Once you can get in position for a half swing half speed, you can try half swing 3/4 speed. I learned from all this that for golf (and life in general) that it is a gradual improvement and you can't just go from zero to hero. If all those guys who can get a tip and gain 30 yards without further practice, those guys are such natural talents they should be pro's by now. It's just not realistic or sustainable.

[tno]

 

Yeah that last night picture looked great. It's common when you go after it to go back to old habits. We all do it. You have to be really mindful of your movements before it becomes second nature. Many coaches will advocate quarter/half swings at slower speeds and gradually build up from there. Once you can get in position for a half swing half speed, you can try half swing 3/4 speed. I learned from all this that for golf (and life in general) that it is a gradual improvement and you can't just go from zero to hero. If all those guys who can get a tip and gain 30 yards without further practice, those guys are such natural talents they should be pro's by now. It's just not realistic or sustainable.

 

Also, another thing that helps is to really focus on the movement on what you are trying to accomplish. In other words, put 100% of your focus on the new movement. Don't use a ball, since that will make you comfortable getting back into your old habits. What I mean by this, is that a majority of golfers are so "result focused," that their movement patterns don't change one bit (even though they think they are making a big change) because they are completely focused on the result that this new "change" will bring. When a golfer is making a change and is result focused, their subconscious mind will want to see the common ball flight (a.k.a. result) they are used to seeing with their old swing, which will take away any new movement they are trying to undertake. Their new movement they are trying to accomplish will be "comfortable," and if it's comfortable, they are most likely not making a big change. Taking away the ball will take away the focus on the result, which will turn the golfer's focus towards the new movement they are trying to ingrain. A great tip I recently learned from Adam Young's The Practice Manual :-)