Varner ruling.

This one is not good. Who gave him the advice?
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Comments

  • DrudershDrudersh ClubWRX Posts: 2,966 ClubWRX
    ......... go onnnnn............
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  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    Driver cracked on the range. Checked with officials how to proceed. Started with 13 clubs, someone brought out a new head, they attached head and shaft, he played a shot and incurred a two stroke penalty. Club can’t be assembled with components carried on the course. Apparently if they had put it together in the locker room he would have been ok.



    Rule has apparently been there for a long time, my question is, he asked how to properly proceed. Sounds like what he got told omitted some important information.
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  • CwebbCwebb Members Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    This rule needs changing
  • deadsolid...shankdeadsolid...shank ClubWRX Posts: 14,768 ClubWRX
    I don’t know who the official was who was in the booth, but Faldo was kind of giving him the business. Really hinting at the adsurdity. Gannon was trying to help the official by trying to explain the rational behind the rule.



    But they never asked why someone didn’t tell him this part, when he asked how to proceed so he wouldn’t break any rules.
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers Posts: 12,503 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    This is crazy and an oversight if what I am reading above is accurate



    A player can use a wrench re-secure a hosel adapter or weights during the round ON THE COURSE .... but not if it is a replacement head ?????????
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  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    This is the interpretation I found:



    4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

    Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.



    For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player’s locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer’s truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be “carried by anyone for the player during the round ” and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else.
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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,187 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Was the player told by an official that he could do this, then penalized for doing so?
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    Seems like maybe a misunderstanding of the advice given by officials? It's possible officials told him it was ok for his people to bring him an assembled club, but did not specify it had to be assembled before the parts arrived on course? Built then sent out to him is different than sent out to him then built.



    https://www.si.com/g...rs-championship



    _____



    "Before the round started, Varner noticed a crack in his driver. He alerted rules officials and told them he intended to start the round with 13 clubs, with a plan to have a driver built and sent out to him while he was on the course. It is legal to start a round with 13 clubs and add one later.



    His agent brought the clubhead to the course and a walking scorer brought the shaft. The two parts were then attached and Varner hit a shot with the newly assembled driver. He was then assessed a two-stroke penalty because a player is not allowed to use a club whose parts were assembled on the golf course by anyone, even if it's not the player.
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers Posts: 12,503 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    in today's day and age ... either the shaft will fail (part S) or the head (part H)



    The odds are you will want to replace one of these H or S (that you are 100% likely still carrying on the course) with a replacement piece for the failed piece



    Needs a rule change ASAP
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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers Posts: 12,503 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    rawdog wrote:


    Seems like maybe a misunderstanding of the advice given by officials? It's possible officials told him it was ok for his people to bring him an assembled club, but did not specify it had to be assembled before the parts arrived on course? Built then sent out to him is different than sent out to him then built.



    https://www.si.com/g...rs-championship



    _____



    "Before the round started, Varner noticed a crack in his driver. He alerted rules officials and told them he intended to start the round with 13 clubs, with a plan to have a driver built and sent out to him while he was on the course. It is legal to start a round with 13 clubs and add one later.



    His agent brought the clubhead to the course and a walking scorer brought the shaft. The two parts were then attached and Varner hit a shot with the newly assembled driver. He was then assessed a two-stroke penalty because a player is not allowed to use a club whose parts were assembled on the golf course by anyone, even if it's not the player.




    Who dreams this stuff up? How is it an advantage regardless of who and where it is assembled?

    Are they worried fake failures will happen and new drivers more suitable for the back 9 will be dropped into play?
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  • jmkenn0jmkenn0 Members Posts: 749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They didn't explain it very well but it sounds like they told him he could start with 13 and bring out another club - I don't think he explained to them he was planning on keeping the shaft and replacing the head (or maybe they were just carrying the shaft?) hopefully if he had told them the plan they would have told him to give the shaft to someone to assemble elsewhere.



    The rules guy was trying to say this was to avoid having people abuse the rule by playing with 13 figure out what their miss was then assemble a 14 th to adjust.
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Cwebb wrote:


    This rule needs changing




    I don't think allowing players to carry 40 shafts and 60 club heads for the round and then letting them assemble clubs one by one up to 14 clubs during the play of the round based on their needs or swing that day is a good idea.



    But if an official approved what happened, it should not be a penalty.
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,259 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 4:25pm #14
    Halebopp wrote:

    Cwebb wrote:


    This rule needs changing




    I don't think allowing players to carry 40 shafts and 60 club heads for the round and then letting them assemble clubs one by one up to 14 clubs during the play of the round based on their needs or swing that day is a good idea.



    But if an official approved what happened, it should not be a penalty.




    This is not of 40 shafts and 60 heads but 1 shaft and 1 head. The issue is that there must be a line drawn somewhere and this is where it has been drawn.



    EDIT: I don't believe the referee knew what the player was about to do, otherwise he would have advised him, I am sure of that.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    cardoustie wrote:


    in today's day and age ... either the shaft will fail (part S) or the head (part H)



    The odds are you will want to replace one of these H or S (that you are 100% likely still carrying on the course) with a replacement piece for the failed piece



    Needs a rule change ASAP




    I think the difference is that he wasn't replacing a club, he was adding a club.



    The club was damaged before the round and was not in his bag when he started. I believe there are other rules in place for what's allowed when repairing a club during a round.
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    Halebopp wrote:

    Cwebb wrote:


    This rule needs changing




    I don't think allowing players to carry 40 shafts and 60 club heads for the round and then letting them assemble clubs one by one up to 14 clubs during the play of the round based on their needs or swing that day is a good idea.



    But if an official approved what happened, it should not be a penalty.




    This is not of 40 shafts and 60 heads but 1 shaft and 1 head. The issue is that there must be a line drawn somewhere and this is where it has been drawn.




    Well, that should be obvious, it was simply an exaggeration to deliver a point why it isn't allowed. The line was drawn in the easiest point possible to administer, making such behaviour forbidden altogether. (And to nitpick, it was only one shaft he had in the bag, not the head).



    Certainly an interesting situation but he could've asked for help from rules officials before starting his round, the rules officials should've known the rules and if they didn't, the player shouldn't be penalized for acting in accordance with the directions given by the rules official.
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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Is it a single 2 stroke penalty or a 2 stroke penalty every time he uses the club?
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,259 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    You get 2 PS and you have to declare that club out of play. (this from the top of my head)
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    Penalty in Stroke Play – Two Penalty Strokes, Maximum of Four Strokes: The player gets the general penalty (two penalty strokes) for each hole where a breach happened, with a maximum of four penalty strokes in the round (adding two penalty strokes at each of the first two holes where a breach happened).
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  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,259 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 4:47pm #21
    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.



    EDIT2: This part of the SI article seems to contain more than one incorrect thing:



    'His agent brought the clubhead to the course and a walking scorer brought the shaft. The two parts were then attached and Varner hit a shot with the newly assembled driver. He was then assessed a two-stroke penalty because a player is not allowed to use a club whose parts were assembled on the golf course by anyone, even if it's not the player.'
  • jmkenn0jmkenn0 Members Posts: 749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    But the score keeper holder was carrying the shaft?
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,782 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 14, 2019 4:50pm #23
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    Not positive, but I think I read his manager had been carrying the shaft (maybe original) for him.



    Edit:

    jmkenn0 was correct, it was the score sign holder. Bad memory.
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,259 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.
  • rawdograwdog Cleveland, OHMembers Posts: 3,023 ✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    From my understanding, he intended to tee off with 13 clubs and add one rather than replacing it.



    But it seems unclear if the shaft from the club that broke pre-round was in his bag or being carried by the standard bearer. But just carrying a shaft would not constitute carrying a club. However, if the shaft was already out on the course, it could not be used in assembly of the new club.



    Hope that provides some help.
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  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    I believe that procedure would have been okay.
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • sui generissui generis Members Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.




    I think that had the player started the round with 14 clubs, the repair would not have been allowed. Adding a club is permitted, isn't it?
    Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.
  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,441 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.




    So they could have grabbed a new driver, but since they used the shaft it's a violation?

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Mr. Bean wrote:

    dlygrisse wrote:


    If he would have handed someone he knows his shaft, teed off while they ran to the locker room or trailer.....put the club together off the course and brought it to him would that have been okay?




    No. That would be repairing the club and that is not allowed.




    The club was never broken in the first place when he actually teed off. (if he handed the shaft off prior to teeing off). Not to mention replacing a broken club is now allowed.
  • Joker91Joker91 Westminster, COMembers Posts: 572 ✭✭
    Basically, don't assemble clubs on the course. Seems pretty simple and there is nothing wrong with that rule.
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    rawdog wrote:
    Mr. Bean wrote:


    I just read the Interpretation 4.1b(4)/1 and according to that there is no penalty for the player if he assembles a club from components brought him onto the course provided those components were brought to him from outside the course and nobody had carried them for him.



    It seems that the story just does not add up...



    EDIT: Did he repair his club or replace it? If former, then he was in breach.




    From my understanding, he intended to tee off with 13 clubs and add one rather than replacing it.



    But it seems unclear if the shaft from the club that broke pre-round was in his bag or being carried by the standard bearer. But just carrying a shaft would not constitute carrying a club. However, if the shaft was already out on the course, it could not be used in assembly of the new club.



    Hope that provides some help.


    It doesn't matter who carried the shaft. What matters is someone carried it for him.
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