Define Natural/Innate Talent

Was told a couple of things to look out for in a junior golfer:



1. The ability to implement something (e.g., a technique) much quicker than others when instructing;



2. The ability to visualize/feel shots and execute better than others (contrast to those that try to have set positions to execute distance in putting/pitching/chipping).



Thoughts/input?

Comments

  • CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 419 ✭✭


    Was told a couple of things to look out for in a junior golfer:



    1. The ability to implement something (e.g., a technique) much quicker than others when instructing;



    2. The ability to visualize/feel shots and execute better than others (contrast to those that try to have set positions to execute distance in putting/pitching/chipping).



    Thoughts/input?




    The above two are good. I would also add outstanding eye/hand coordination (cannot be taught or *improved* even with lots of training), competitive spirit/instinct (some kids just aren't wired that way) and temperament/mental strength (including ability to overcome adversity, quickly put missteps out of mind, etc).
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭
    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.
  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 298 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 9:51am #4
    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    Can you define center? Are you talking about a large surface area that’s the center or the size of nickel? And what groove does that center start (from bottom of the iron up)? Also - center of the entire face or center of the part where there are grooves?



    Trying to be helpful bc I think you are misguided on what center is. This is why I find it hilarious when parent caddies get upset at their children for being short/left/right on a shot.



    Also - you do know blades tend to be heal biased and gi clubs toe biased.



    Point is - this cant be considered innate talent. Maybe the ability to repeat is arguable, but wouldn’t define that as innate. Phil copying a mirror image of his dad as a young lad and swinging lefty is innate (which falls at either 1 and 2 of my original post)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,063 ✭✭

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    Can you define center? Are you talking about a large surface area that's the center or the size of nickel? And what groove does that center start (from bottom of the iron up)? Also - center of the entire face or center of the part where there are grooves?



    Trying to be helpful bc I think you are misguided on what center is.



    Also - you do know blades tend to be heal biased and gi clubs toe biased.



    Point is - this cant be considered innate talent. Maybe the ability to repeat is arguable, but wouldn't define that as innate. Phil copying a mirror image of his dad as a young lad and swinging lefty is innate (which falls at either 1 and 2 of my original post)




    Finding the center of the club face is important, but in no ways defines talent.



    I think what you and CT have stated for the most part. I think mental strength can be learned. It helps to have it naturally, but not a necessity.
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,030 ✭✭


    Was told a couple of things to look out for in a junior golfer:



    1. The ability to implement something (e.g., a technique) much quicker than others when instructing;



    2. The ability to visualize/feel shots and execute better than others (contrast to those that try to have set positions to execute distance in putting/pitching/chipping).



    Thoughts/input?




    In one of our early lessons with our coach the boy was hitting his 3W off the deck. Coach asked him to do something and he had it down within two swings. He was pretty amazed and said that he will spend multiple lessons with other players asking them to do the same thing that my son did in two swings.



    It can be tricky though because a lot of golf instructors will teach a fix to the extreme hoping to get the slightest marginal improvement. With my son he has to be taught pretty much exactly how you want it done the first time.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 3,980 ✭✭
    If you hand individuals a golf club that have never swung a golf club and ask them to swing it, some will swing horribly and some will swing pretty close a to a nice swing. A nice swing just comes natural to them. And they have excellent proprioception.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 10:47am #8


    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    Can you define center? Are you talking about a large surface area that's the center or the size of nickel? And what groove does that center start (from bottom of the iron up)? Also - center of the entire face or center of the part where there are grooves?



    Trying to be helpful bc I think you are misguided on what center is.



    Also - you do know blades tend to be heal biased and gi clubs toe biased.



    Point is - this cant be considered innate talent. Maybe the ability to repeat is arguable, but wouldn't define that as innate. Phil copying a mirror image of his dad as a young lad and swinging lefty is innate (which falls at either 1 and 2 of my original post)




    Finding the center of the club face is important, but in no ways defines talent.







    I think what you and CT have stated for the most part. I think mental strength can be learned. It helps to have it naturally, but not a necessity.




    I was told this by a top instructor and after I thought about he is very correct. It's simple because a lot things in golf can be taught but being able to hit in the center of club is very hard to do. Some people just have a natural ability to hit a club in the center most will never be able to do even come close. Even the best instructors can not teach that to a person. Everything else in golf can be taught.



    The best example I have ever seen is Tiger Woods his natural swing was unbeatable and after lessons to change it he got worse.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    Can you define center? Are you talking about a large surface area that's the center or the size of nickel? And what groove does that center start (from bottom of the iron up)? Also - center of the entire face or center of the part where there are grooves?



    Trying to be helpful bc I think you are misguided on what center is. This is why I find it hilarious when parent caddies get upset at their children for being short/left/right on a shot.



    Also - you do know blades tend to be heal biased and gi clubs toe biased.



    Point is - this cant be considered innate talent. Maybe the ability to repeat is arguable, but wouldn't define that as innate. Phil copying a mirror image of his dad as a young lad and swinging lefty is innate (which falls at either 1 and 2 of my original post)




    OK when I mean center of the club I mean sweet spot probably the size of a penny. If you can do that every time the club will consistant. We have a new instructor who took on my daughter and this is big thing he told us . In fact I had a very in depth conversation about this very subject with him and I am pretty sure he knows his stuff.



    I will agree it oversimplified and honestly I don't think I could explain all the reasons behind it the way the way it was to me . But it comes down to the player being relaxed and able to be in total control. If you can't do that you will never be in the center of club the majority of the time and this includes the putter.



    To be in that state of mind only very talented players can reach. I agree sounds simple but I guarantee it is not Many Many tour players have this ability especially the truly great ones. Me personally I think way too much and I screwed and need to accept the fact I will never get the center. Other probably not as big of an issue.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭
    edited Mar 14, 2019 11:19am #10

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    Can you define center? Are you talking about a large surface area that's the center or the size of nickel? And what groove does that center start (from bottom of the iron up)? Also - center of the entire face or center of the part where there are grooves?



    Trying to be helpful bc I think you are misguided on what center is. This is why I find it hilarious when parent caddies get upset at their children for being short/left/right on a shot.



    Also - you do know blades tend to be heal biased and gi clubs toe biased.



    Point is - this cant be considered innate talent. Maybe the ability to repeat is arguable, but wouldn't define that as innate. Phil copying a mirror image of his dad as a young lad and swinging lefty is innate (which falls at either 1 and 2 of my original post)




    OK when I mean center of the club I mean sweet spot probably the size of a penny. If you can do that every time the club will consistent and the ball will do what you expect it to We have a new instructor who took on my daughter and this is big thing he told us . In fact I had a very in depth conversation about this very subject with him and I am pretty sure he knows his stuff.



    I will agree it oversimplified and honestly I don't think I could explain all the reasons behind it the way the way it was to me . But it comes down to the player being relaxed and feel like they are in total control. If you can't do that you will never be in the center of club the majority of the time and this includes the putter.



    To be in that state of mind only very talented players can reach that level of comfort with themselves and playing golf. I agree sounds to simple but I guarantee it is not. Many many tour players have this ability especially the truly great ones. Me personally I think way too much and I am totally screwed and need to accept the fact I will never get the center and should enjoy bogey golf. Other probably not as big of an issue.



    The type of club a person uses is not a big deal most good ball strikers can adjust for clubs because they actually have that good of a feel and well they also play clubs fitted for them.
  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 873 ✭✭


    Was told a couple of things to look out for in a junior golfer:



    1. The ability to implement something (e.g., a technique) much quicker than others when instructing;



    2. The ability to visualize/feel shots and execute better than others (contrast to those that try to have set positions to execute distance in putting/pitching/chipping).



    Thoughts/input?




    Both of these describe proprioception. I think CTGolf hit the other keys (competitive spirit and mental strength).
  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 298 ✭✭
    Don’t forget the ability to be relaxed to hit the center of the club face. All good input.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,846 ClubWRX
    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    They lied to you.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭
    kekoa wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    They lied to you.




    No they didn’t lie to me at all. The statement has more meaning behind it. Think about it and what it really means.
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,030 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    They lied to you.




    No they didn't lie to me at all. The statement has more meaning behind it. Think about it and what it really means.




    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick a**...and I'm all out of bubblegum

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,626 ClubWRX
    tiger1873 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    They lied to you.




    No they didn't lie to me at all. The statement has more meaning behind it. Think about it and what it really means.






    It means having a repeatable swing...hitting the ball in the sweet spot.



    However...if the repeatable swing has a +10 face to path angle...hitting the center isn't the issue.



    It's a stretch to say nothing else matters.
  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 128 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    They lied to you.




    No they didn’t lie to me at all. The statement has more meaning behind it. Think about it and what it really means.




    Ask Moe Norman how important that is
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,846 ClubWRX

    tiger1873 wrote:

    kekoa wrote:

    tiger1873 wrote:


    I was told the ability to hit the ball in the center is the most important thing period. Everything else doesn't matter.




    They lied to you.




    No they didn’t lie to me at all. The statement has more meaning behind it. Think about it and what it really means.




    Ask Moe Norman how important that is




    Just watched a few vids of mo and I didnt hear about hitting the center being most important once...period. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,138 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 7:29am #19
    Ability to consistently strike the center (sweetspot) is certainly important to playing great golf, but it isn't by itself a natural or innate talent. In fact, it has to be learned.



    Now, those with natural/innate athletic talent for the game have a better chance than most of becoming a good ball striker, but it still requires a lot of learning and repetition.



    Natural/innate attributes that help one become a great player are both physical & mental...



    Physical: proprioception, balance, speed, grace of movement, hand/eye coordination, touch, good sense of rhythm & timing, etc.



    Mental: persistence, confidence/self-belief, optimism, short memory, competitive spirit/will to win, enjoying pressure situations, and showing off ones skills



    All of the above can be learned and improved upon to varying degrees, but those possessing these attributes naturally will likely have higher ceilings for ultimate performance than those who do not.
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members Posts: 16,713 ✭✭
    Plenty of the best statistical ball strikers miss hit it frequently. They all miss hit it much more frequently than most realize. The best just miss it at the target.

  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,626 ClubWRX
    This thread has veered off course a bit.



    Innate talent is something that someone is born with. It's not an outcome...based on hard work.



    Think of the kids that sit down at a piano...and can naturally play the piano...as if they'd taken piano lessons for years. It's natural to them...and they are born with that talent. Or...the kids that look at a complex math problem...then solves for the problem as if it were second nature. That's innate talent.



    The people that are born with talent in XYZ have a learning curve that is much much less steep than those without the talent. It's not going to take as much work and time for the talented people to reach their performance peak. Meanwhile...their peers without the same degree of innate talent will take longer...or perhaps they'll never get to the same performance peak level.



    In my opinion...you can't teach innate talent. Either someone is born with it...or they're not.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭
    jj9000 wrote:






    Innate talent is something that someone is born with. It's not an outcome...based on hard work.






    Everyone even great talent has to work hard at it to be really good. This is especially true with golf. Will agree it comes easier to them but no one gets there just picking up a club
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,063 ✭✭
    tiger1873 wrote:

    jj9000 wrote:


    Innate talent is something that someone is born with. It's not an outcome...based on hard work.






    Everyone even great talent has to work hard at it to be really good. This is especially true with golf. Will agree it comes easier to them but no one gets there just picking up a club




    That isn't what he is saying. Innate talent is something you are born with. Doesn't mean you don't have to work at it. Doesn't mean you can't learn it.
  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,626 ClubWRX
    tiger1873 wrote:

    jj9000 wrote:


    Innate talent is something that someone is born with. It's not an outcome...based on hard work.






    Everyone even great talent has to work hard at it to be really good. This is especially true with golf. Will agree it comes easier to them but no one gets there just picking up a club






    innate



    adjective




    existing in one from birth; inborn; native:innate musical talent.

    inherent in the essential character of something:an innate defect in the hypothesis.

    originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience:an innate knowledge of good and evil.
  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,030 ✭✭
    Innate talent means nothing without hard work. Just look at John Daly... even Tiger admitted how John is more talented than him. The difference is that the Big Cat works his butt off.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭

    tiger1873 wrote:

    jj9000 wrote:


    Innate talent is something that someone is born with. It's not an outcome...based on hard work.






    Everyone even great talent has to work hard at it to be really good. This is especially true with golf. Will agree it comes easier to them but no one gets there just picking up a club




    That isn't what he is saying. Innate talent is something you are born with. Doesn't mean you don't have to work at it. Doesn't mean you can't learn it.




    Yes your born with it but there is no such as not working hard to develop it. It's hard to argue that Jack Nicolaus, Arnold Palmer or Tiger woods didn't have very hard work ethic to go along with that talent. If they didn't none of us would have ever heard about them. It also didn't always come easy to those guys either.
  • PetethreeputPetethreeput Members Posts: 1,430 ✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 10:44am #27
    The definition for innate ability and **** are the same: I cant define it but know it when i see it.

    I would say athletic innate ability is defined as the ability to predict the future based on one's actions. There must be hand/eye coordination, but that is only part of it.



    Child psychologists say a child doesn't fully grasp geo-spatial relationships until they are teens. The internet is littered with folks who show incredible technical competence in their chosen activity whether it is juggling, trick shots, etc., but there is a reason why they are on the internet and not TV playing professionally, and it is the innate ability to predict the future.

    Youth soccer is a perfect example. Every kid can run, every kid can kick the ball, so what makes one kid "really good" and one kid "not." Those kids who just have it, are actually able to pass a ball. Now inherently we know the kid doesn't do the mathematical equation of the targets speed and angle at which the kid is running, nor do they do the math to figure out how hard to pass the ball, or do they figure out how to avoid the other team based on where he/she is standing. They have the innate ability to see beyond themselves and calculate all of this naturally. This is the same in every team sport, those kids at a young age can do this innately, long before their peers can even think of anything beyond themselves.



    The youth golfer is the same. They pick up a club, they decide they want the ball to fly to "X" and they swing, and lo and behold it goes pretty near "X." Obviously, the kid has to have hand/eye and a certain ease to do it or it couldn't be natural, but I truly believe that is what innate ability is. Its why they always tout tour pros as, "He could have played... in college but decided on golf."



    Why don't all these kids make to the pros. That is a mental thing. I believe, and I have no evidence for this, it is the wiring. Some kids are fearless and never remember a mistake. Other kids fester on mistakes, and try to avoid them in the future. Once the mechanical takes over (in most cases) to combat a negative swing thought, that once innate ability disappears.



    I believe this to be true, but if there are other thoughts, I am not sensitive and would be happy to hear them.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,041 ✭✭

    tiger1873 wrote:

    jj9000 wrote:


    Innate talent is something that someone is born with. It's not an outcome...based on hard work.






    Everyone even great talent has to work hard at it to be really good. This is especially true with golf. Will agree it comes easier to them but no one gets there just picking up a club




    That isn't what he is saying. Innate talent is something you are born with. Doesn't mean you don't have to work at it. Doesn't mean you can't learn it.




    The very best still have to be guided and taught and work there but off. I have a problem saying " It's not an outcome...based on hard work." that is simply not true unless you work you butt off.
  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,626 ClubWRX
    edited Mar 15, 2019 11:08am #29
    tiger1873 wrote:


    tiger1873 wrote:

    jj9000 wrote:


    Innate talent is something that someone is born with. It's not an outcome...based on hard work.






    Everyone even great talent has to work hard at it to be really good. This is especially true with golf. Will agree it comes easier to them but no one gets there just picking up a club




    That isn't what he is saying. Innate talent is something you are born with. Doesn't mean you don't have to work at it. Doesn't mean you can't learn it.




    The very best still have to be guided and taught and work there but off. I have a problem saying " It's not an outcome...based on hard work." that is simply not true unless you work you butt off.




    Nobody is disputing that folks don't have to work their butts off.



    I don't want to be disrespectful here...but...I'm not sure you understand the definition of innate.



    Innate means you're born with something. In this context...innate talent means you're born with the talent for golf.



    Innate talent and 'working your butt off' are exclusive from one another...they have nothing to do with each other. Once you combine innate talent and 'working your butt off'...great things can happen.
  • daleheaddalehead Members Posts: 1,459 ✭✭
    If you can make a repeatable swing, one that returns the club head to the same place every time, you can be taught everything else.
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,138 ✭✭
    Well, the question was to define innate/ natural talent.
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