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why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!

 

This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

 

Except this penalty was not the fault of the pro not knowing the rules. It was the fault of the scoreboard holder that was trying to help and caused the rules to be broken.

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Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.

 

Great idea! Especially for the poor guy whose driver, fairway wood, two irons and putter were broken when a referee accidentally drove over the player's bag...

 

How would I replace them while I'm out on the course? Do you carry spare clubs in your car? I know I do not.

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So regarding the "cannot be carried for the player" condition. Suppose at a given event the player begins with 13 clubs and wishes to add one, a driver in this case. He sends person A to retrieve a shaft from his locker, and person B to retrieve a head from his car in the parking lot. A arrives back with the shaft at the 2nd green, but B does not arrive until the 3rd green because he couldn't find the player's car quickly.

 

Does the player incur a penalty (once striking a ball with the club assembled at the 3rd green) because A carried the shaft "for" the player the length of the 3rd hole?

If so, would A and B have to rendezvous at the point where A first contacted the player and assemble the club, before carrying it up to the player?

 

That is a fair question, just like the circumvention of the rule by making the person carry the clubs out of bounds. I'm quite sure the latter would be considered a serious misconduct of acting against the spirit of the rules.

 

But a club is considered to be added when the player makes the next stroke (with any club), so my take is the shaft would also be considered to be carried for the player.

I might argue differently. The player has asked for 2 specific components to be brought to him, and assembles the club as soon as both components have arrived. Neither part was being carried before the need for the new club arose, so I'd have a hard time saying that the part was being "carried for the player" in violation of the rules. I also understand your thinking, can can't say that you're definitely wrong. It might be a little gray area that could be clarified, but I don't imagine this rule will come into play enough to justify any further clarifications. But for now, the safest thing would be to assemble the club in the parking lot or clubhouse before taking it to the player.

Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.

 

Great idea! Especially for the poor guy whose driver, fairway wood, two irons and putter were broken when a referee accidentally drove over the player's bag...

 

How would I replace them while I'm out on the course? Do you carry spare clubs in your car? I know I do not.

I know I have a spare driver and gap wedge in my car. I replaced both over the winter, and simply tossed the old ones in the trunk.

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Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.

 

And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.

 

Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being " cliffs notes " of the rules ??!!!

 

No wonder I can't fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?

 

You seem to be in a spirit of complaining over just about anything, aren't you?

 

Not really. I've been reading that app for 4 weeks now. And had no clue it was in " half a** " mode. I simply asked what the purpose of that mode was. To confuse ?

 

And there were no instructions or help in the app? I haven't seen the USGA app but in R&A app there are different titles but of course one needs to spot them as well.

 

I’m not going to say there aren’t. But not that I have seen. I open it and in a large ( half screen ) bubble it says “ players edition with an arrow to open. So I open. Thinking “ I’m playing the game here I go “. And off I went. Not knowing that this was just some general drivel.

 

There is a search engine. And when I searched before revising the format it just carried you to that section of the cliffs notes.

 

First world problems I know. This is a constant issue for me. And ITs my issue. But I don’t know when it’s happening until it’s too late.

 

Which is why I asked logically..... when would anyone ever want part of a rule , especially when broken in small bites of each section. I asked so I could understand why the app is made that way. To include partial info in a format that appears to be “ the rules of golf”.

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why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!

 

This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

 

Except this penalty was not the fault of the pro not knowing the rules. It was the fault of the scoreboard holder that was trying to help and caused the rules to be broken.

 

This is where I’m confused. It sounds like HV knew, or was told, the rule...which is why he left the shaft on the tee. So why did he then assemble it on the course after the scorer brought it to him? He could have given it to the guy with the head to assemble off course and returned afterwards.

 

Also, didn’t he damage the club on the driving range? Why bring the shaft with you? Why not send it to the van immediately and have the reassembled club brought to the course, which is allowed?

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why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!

 

This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

 

Except this penalty was not the fault of the pro not knowing the rules. It was the fault of the scoreboard holder that was trying to help and caused the rules to be broken.

 

As I wrote this was an extraordinary case and I would not blame Varner for the penalty. Then again, had he known Rule 4.1 in and out he just might have asked the scorer the right questions. But I seriously doubt it. This was a force majeure if any.

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Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.

 

And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.

 

Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being " cliffs notes " of the rules ??!!!

 

No wonder I can't fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?

 

You seem to be in a spirit of complaining over just about anything, aren't you?

 

Not really. I've been reading that app for 4 weeks now. And had no clue it was in " half a** " mode. I simply asked what the purpose of that mode was. To confuse ?

 

And there were no instructions or help in the app? I haven't seen the USGA app but in R&A app there are different titles but of course one needs to spot them as well.

 

I'm not going to say there aren't. But not that I have seen. I open it and in a large ( half screen ) bubble it says " players edition with an arrow to open. So I open. Thinking " I'm playing the game here I go ". And off I went. Not knowing that this was just some general drivel.

 

There is a search engine. And when I searched before revising the format it just carried you to that section of the cliffs notes.

 

First world problems I know. This is a constant issue for me. And ITs my issue. But I don't know when it's happening until it's too late.

 

Which is why I asked logically..... when would anyone ever want part of a rule , especially when broken in small bites of each section. I asked so I could understand why the app is made that way. To include partial info in a format that appears to be " the rules of golf".

The Ruling Bodies specifically chose to make a simplified version of the rules to enable quick reference to the basics of each rule, and called it the Player's Edition. If you want to understand your options for a ball in a penalty area, you may not want or need the entire rule and every possible variation, you may just want a simple reference. Prior to the 2019 version, there was no such official version of the rules available.

I'd like the app to work a little better, the little blue buttons SHOULD take you directly to the Full Rules, but they don't work, at least for me. My preferred way to see the rules is on the full USGA website, where moving from the Players to the Full to the Interpretations is pretty simple.

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That is a fair question, just like the circumvention of the rule by making the person carry the clubs out of bounds. I'm quite sure the latter would be considered a serious misconduct of acting against the spirit of the rules.

 

But a club is considered to be added when the player makes the next stroke (with any club), so my take is the shaft would also be considered to be carried for the player.

I might argue differently. The player has asked for 2 specific components to be brought to him, and assembles the club as soon as both components have arrived. Neither part was being carried before the need for the new club arose, so I'd have a hard time saying that the part was being "carried for the player" in violation of the rules. I also understand your thinking, can can't say that you're definitely wrong. It might be a little gray area that could be clarified, but I don't imagine this rule will come into play enough to justify any further clarifications. But for now, the safest thing would be to assemble the club in the parking lot or clubhouse before taking it to the player.

The safest thing to do is not add a club. I think, although not entirely sure, that you can't get penalized for not adding a club and just continue on playing with 13.

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That is a fair question, just like the circumvention of the rule by making the person carry the clubs out of bounds. I'm quite sure the latter would be considered a serious misconduct of acting against the spirit of the rules.

 

But a club is considered to be added when the player makes the next stroke (with any club), so my take is the shaft would also be considered to be carried for the player.

I might argue differently. The player has asked for 2 specific components to be brought to him, and assembles the club as soon as both components have arrived. Neither part was being carried before the need for the new club arose, so I'd have a hard time saying that the part was being "carried for the player" in violation of the rules. I also understand your thinking, can can't say that you're definitely wrong. It might be a little gray area that could be clarified, but I don't imagine this rule will come into play enough to justify any further clarifications. But for now, the safest thing would be to assemble the club in the parking lot or clubhouse before taking it to the player.

The safest thing to do is not add a club. I think, although not entirely sure, that you can't get penalized for not adding a club and just continue on playing with 13.

You're right, can't be penalized if you don't add or replace a club. You can play with 3 clubs, if you choose. Bryson would probably prefer to play with 30 clubs.

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Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.

 

In what way is that simpler than

a) you are allowed to add clubs up to the maximum of 14;

b) you can replace a club only if it was damaged by someone or something other than yourself or your caddie?

 

Well. In my opinion. It goes on to list exceptions. Outside agency's and natural forces. No definite answer on what those are. Natural forces such as a wind storm ? Or like a guy slipping on a wet bank and dropping his putter on a sprinkler head ? Wet grass and gravity were the causes. But the putter was in the players hands.

 

I see several " judgment " issues.

 

Just not allowing any replacement would be simple. On this case he just should have gotten a new head before. Or not at all. The rule was setup to trip you otherwise. Adding a club after start of a round leaves way too many ways to get penalized. And no clear on course - off course , how long can a person walk to meet you before it constitutes " carrying ". Can that person walk the shaft off course assemble the head ands walk back etc". Surely " no replacements after the round has begun " is simpler.

I note that while you acknowledge a visual learning challenge, you nevertheless continue to attack the rules seemingly without awareness that you may be part of the problem. Of course there is no definitive answer on what "outside agencies" are, the term has been replaced by "outside influence." Its meaning is right there in the definitions. As is the meaning of "natural forces."

 

I must say that if you simply asked questions instead of attacked the resources made available to you I would be pleased.

 

I would like to offer some suggestions to people struggling with the club rule. Start with 14 clubs. If you break or damage one, continue to use it, fix it if you can, but don't replace it or any of its components. That will always keep you safe. And if something odd happens such as having to start with less than 14 clubs or someone else breaking your club, either avoid trying to replace one (always an option) or pull out your app set to "full rules" or "interpretations" before you do anything else. I'll add that I am an old bastxxx with a lot of round under my belt, and I've never needed to do anything that my above advice wouldn't cover today.

 

While all that advice is not hard to live by, if you want to get fancy, be sure you know what you're doing because the rest is tricky.

 

BTW, on the fancy end, a couple of posts have confused the issue of components being carried to/for you. Looky here:

 

4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.

For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player’s locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer’s truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be “carried by anyone for the player during the round ” and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else.

 

IMO while somewhat complicated, the above is nevertheless clear. Once you've directed a person or persons to bring you components, as long as the components retrieved were not already being carried around on the course for you, they may be brought from off the course. It doesn't matter how long they take to get to you or if they arrive at the same time other than it may delay you're ability to use the soon-to-be assembled club.

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why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!

 

This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

 

Except this penalty was not the fault of the pro not knowing the rules. It was the fault of the scoreboard holder that was trying to help and caused the rules to be broken.

 

This is where I’m confused. It sounds like HV knew, or was told, the rule...which is why he left the shaft on the tee. So why did he then assemble it on the course after the scorer brought it to him? He could have given it to the guy with the head to assemble off course and returned afterwards.

 

Also, didn’t he damage the club on the driving range? Why bring the shaft with you? Why not send it to the van immediately and have the reassembled club brought to the course, which is allowed?

 

My gues on why carry the shaft vs hand it off is superstition.

 

I have a 3 wood this way. Cracked the face twice. I wouldn’t hand that shaft off to just anyone to care for. Why ? Something is perfect about that shaft. And I’ve hit many 3 woods with the same addi shaft to properly demo then. None perform like mine. I bet he believes in that shaft and wanted to make sure that shaft was The one used. Not a “ same shaft “ replacement from the van.

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And thank you Dave. I’m not “ all the way crazy “ then. The little blue buttons don’t do anything when I press them either.

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How incredibly contradictory are the two sentences below. Players need an on-course attorney to research every footnote and exception before they do anything on the course today. What is the purpose of allowing a player to retrieve or bring parts onto the course if it isn't to "assemble" them. And, how are they brought or retrieved without being "carried" ???

 

 

 

4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.

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I'll add that the paperback version of the Player's Edition makes more sense to use than the app version. The paperback can be carried easily in a golf bag, and the full ROG is pretty big, but that certainly isn't an advantage for an app.

 

The Player's Edition is also written in a more friendly style, so it does have a least some value for some people in the app. But I stay away from it, I don't need the "friendliness" and don't want a partial answer to some questions, and on some questions that's all that is offered.

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How incredibly contradictory are the two sentences below. Players need an on-course attorney to research every footnote and exception before they do anything on the course today. What is the purpose of allowing a player to retrieve or bring parts onto the course if it isn't to "assemble" them. And, how are they brought or retrieved without being "carried" ???

 

 

 

4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.

If you can't figure this through, you should either play on without the club or hire your attorney. I have no issue with the wording, but as I noted some may find it confusing.
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So regarding the "cannot be carried for the player" condition. Suppose at a given event the player begins with 13 clubs and wishes to add one, a driver in this case. He sends person A to retrieve a shaft from his locker, and person B to retrieve a head from his car in the parking lot. A arrives back with the shaft at the 2nd green, but B does not arrive until the 3rd green because he couldn't find the player's car quickly.

 

Does the player incur a penalty (once striking a ball with the club assembled at the 3rd green) because A carried the shaft "for" the player the length of the 3rd hole?

If so, would A and B have to rendezvous at the point where A first contacted the player and assemble the club, before carrying it up to the player?

 

That is a fair question, just like the circumvention of the rule by making the person carry the clubs out of bounds. I'm quite sure the latter would be considered a serious misconduct of acting against the spirit of the rules.

 

But a club is considered to be added when the player makes the next stroke (with any club), so my take is the shaft would also be considered to be carried for the player.

I might argue differently. The player has asked for 2 specific components to be brought to him, and assembles the club as soon as both components have arrived. Neither part was being carried before the need for the new club arose, so I'd have a hard time saying that the part was being "carried for the player" in violation of the rules. I also understand your thinking, can can't say that you're definitely wrong. It might be a little gray area that could be clarified, but I don't imagine this rule will come into play enough to justify any further clarifications. But for now, the safest thing would be to assemble the club in the parking lot or clubhouse before taking it to the player.

 

I was contemplating your argument also. But isn't what happened pretty close the same thing as this scenario? Clearly a specific shaft was being carried for the player (without him knowing it) and there's no doubt it was the one to be used, only the head hadn't been brought to him yet. Thus I think the ability choose from different components doesn't play a role in the judgement. If we agree on that, what differences are there between the two cases? The length of the time period and actions taken in between the first and second components arriving (he did leave the shaft behind, so it was, in a way, brought to him). For those issues the only dividing line I see in the rules, with regard to similar cases, is making a stroke.

 

I'm not sure I'm happy with the outcome but that's my thinking based on the information available to us.

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How incredibly contradictory are the two sentences below. Players need an on-course attorney to research every footnote and exception before they do anything on the course today. What is the purpose of allowing a player to retrieve or bring parts onto the course if it isn't to "assemble" them. And, how are they brought or retrieved without being "carried" ???

 

 

 

4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.

From reading this thread and the rules....

"Carried" prevents a player from starting with less than 14 clubs....having someone carry a few shafts and heads....and then when faced with a particular shot that was not planned for assembling a club from the components being carried for him. Note this procedure would be available instantaneously so he could have a specialty club without unduly delaying play.

 

"Brought out to" the player components requires more time so would be to replace a broken club if the player started with fewer than 14. The delivery would likely be slower than being available for a particular shot.

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why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!

 

This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

 

Except this penalty was not the fault of the pro not knowing the rules. It was the fault of the scoreboard holder that was trying to help and caused the rules to be broken.

 

As I wrote this was an extraordinary case and I would not blame Varner for the penalty. Then again, had he known Rule 4.1 in and out he just might have asked the scorer the right questions. But I seriously doubt it. This was a force majeure if any.

 

That was essentially the question I was asking yesterday. I wondered if HV knew the shaft was being carried along by the scorer. Does anyone know who actually handed him the components on the course? His agent may have taken the shaft from the scorer and given them to HV. Or he may have given the head to the scorer and had him hand both pieces to HV. Wouldn’t have changed rhe outcome but was just curious. But there is a strong possibility HV didn’t know.

 

I realize no one probably actually knows. Just thinking it might not all fall on HV.


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Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.

 

In what way is that simpler than

a) you are allowed to add clubs up to the maximum of 14;

b) you can replace a club only if it was damaged by someone or something other than yourself or your caddie?

 

Well. In my opinion. It goes on to list exceptions. Outside agency's and natural forces. No definite answer on what those are. Natural forces such as a wind storm ? Or like a guy slipping on a wet bank and dropping his putter on a sprinkler head ? Wet grass and gravity were the causes. But the putter was in the players hands.

 

I see several " judgment " issues.

 

Just not allowing any replacement would be simple. On this case he just should have gotten a new head before. Or not at all. The rule was setup to trip you otherwise. Adding a club after start of a round leaves way too many ways to get penalized. And no clear on course - off course , how long can a person walk to meet you before it constitutes " carrying ". Can that person walk the shaft off course assemble the head ands walk back etc". Surely " no replacements after the round has begun " is simpler.

I note that while you acknowledge a visual learning challenge, you nevertheless continue to attack the rules seemingly without awareness that you may be part of the problem. Of course there is no definitive answer on what "outside agencies" are, the term has been replaced by "outside influence." Its meaning is right there in the definitions. As is the meaning of "natural forces."

 

I must say that if you simply asked questions instead of attacked the resources made available to you I would be pleased.

 

I would like to offer some suggestions to people struggling with the club rule. Start with 14 clubs. If you break or damage one, continue to use it, fix it if you can, but don't replace it or any of its components. That will always keep you safe. And if something odd happens such as having to start with less than 14 clubs or someone else breaking your club, either avoid trying to replace one (always an option) or pull out your app set to "full rules" or "interpretations" before you do anything else. I'll add that I am an old bastxxx with a lot of round under my belt, and I've never needed to do anything that my above advice wouldn't cover today.

 

While all that advice is not hard to live by, if you want to get fancy, be sure you know what you're doing because the rest is tricky.

 

BTW, on the fancy end, a couple of posts have confused the issue of components being carried to/for you. Looky here:

 

4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.

For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player’s locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer’s truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be “carried by anyone for the player during the round ” and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else.

 

IMO while somewhat complicated, the above is nevertheless clear. Once you've directed a person or persons to bring you components, as long as the components retrieved were not already being carried around on the course for you, they may be brought from off the course. It doesn't matter how long they take to get to you or if they arrive at the same time other than it may delay you're ability to use the soon-to-be assembled club.

 

Last part first.

 

 

So let’s say Varner sends someone for a driver head before the round. Then he lays the shaft on the 1st tee for his agent or whomever to get when they get the head. The agent then comes to the first tee with a head and grabs the shaft and proceeds to assemble it and then walk to find Varner on the course . Legal ?

 

Modify that slightly now. The scorer sees the shaft on the first tee and picks it up thinking he is helping . Carries it until the agent shows up with the head. Assembled it . Now assume Varner doesn’t know the agent is carrying it . Legal ?

 

 

Now if he does know he’s carrying it ? I’m assuming illegal ?

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why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!

 

This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

 

Except this penalty was not the fault of the pro not knowing the rules. It was the fault of the scoreboard holder that was trying to help and caused the rules to be broken.

 

As I wrote this was an extraordinary case and I would not blame Varner for the penalty. Then again, had he known Rule 4.1 in and out he just might have asked the scorer the right questions. But I seriously doubt it. This was a force majeure if any.

 

That was essentially the question I was asking yesterday. I wondered if HV knew the shaft was being carried along by the scorer. Does anyone know who actually handed him the components on the course? His agent may have taken the shaft from the scorer and given them to HV. Or he may have given the head to the scorer and had him hand both pieces to HV. Wouldn’t have changed rhe outcome but was just curious. But there is a strong possibility HV didn’t know. I also realize no one probably knows he answer.


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why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!

 

This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

 

Except this penalty was not the fault of the pro not knowing the rules. It was the fault of the scoreboard holder that was trying to help and caused the rules to be broken.

 

As I wrote this was an extraordinary case and I would not blame Varner for the penalty. Then again, had he known Rule 4.1 in and out he just might have asked the scorer the right questions. But I seriously doubt it. This was a force majeure if any.

I understand fully why they can't but it's cases like these sometimes where I wish a rules official could interpret that the player was playing within the spirit of the rules. The player is supposed to play within the "spirit of the rules," the rules official should have the authority to interpret rules taking into account "the spirit of the player." I know, i know, huge gargantuan giant can of worms-never work, players would take advantage, how do you know the spirit of the player anyway, etc, etc. Would be nice though.

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This is where I’m confused. It sounds like HV knew, or was told, the rule...which is why he left the shaft on the tee. So why did he then assemble it on the course after the scorer brought it to him? He could have given it to the guy with the head to assemble off course and returned afterwards.

 

WHERE it was assembled is not an issue at all. The problem was that club shaft had been carried FOR the player since the beginning of the round, rather than brought TO the player, with the club head, as HV had planned.

 

My opinion is that taking the combination off the course for assembly would not have solved the problem, since the shaft had been carried around for the player. However, I'm not sure on this point, and certainly can see how it would be otherwise.

 

Regarding L29's post...I'm generally not a fan of exceptions to rules, grey areas, etc...but in a situation like this, it seems like some discretion could be given to the officials. If HV indeed had talked to a ref on the first hole, why couldn't it be, "Sir, the club head is going on this shaft right here," and when the club head arrives, the ref say, "yes, you are putting it on the shaft you said you were going to use. No problem." As you say, can of worms.

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This is where I’m confused. It sounds like HV knew, or was told, the rule...which is why he left the shaft on the tee. So why did he then assemble it on the course after the scorer brought it to him? He could have given it to the guy with the head to assemble off course and returned afterwards.

 

WHERE it was assembled is not an issue at all. The problem was that club shaft had been carried FOR the player since the beginning of the round, rather than brought TO the player, with the club head, as HV had planned.

 

My opinion is that taking the combination off the course for assembly would not have solved the problem, since the shaft had been carried around for the player. However, I'm not sure on this point, and certainly can see how it would be otherwise.

 

Regarding L29's post...I'm generally not a fan of exceptions to rules, grey areas, etc...but in a situation like this, it seems like some discretion could be given to the officials. If HV indeed had talked to a ref on the first hole, why couldn't it be, "Sir, the club head is going on this shaft right here," and when the club head arrives, the ref say, "yes, you are putting it on the shaft you said you were going to use. No problem." As you say, can of worms.

Can the shaft be carried FOR the player if the player doesn't know it? Honest question. Not trying to be argumentative.

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Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.

 

In what way is that simpler than

a) you are allowed to add clubs up to the maximum of 14;

b) you can replace a club only if it was damaged by someone or something other than yourself or your caddie?

 

Well. In my opinion. It goes on to list exceptions. Outside agency's and natural forces. No definite answer on what those are. Natural forces such as a wind storm ? Or like a guy slipping on a wet bank and dropping his putter on a sprinkler head ? Wet grass and gravity were the causes. But the putter was in the players hands.

 

I see several " judgment " issues.

 

Just not allowing any replacement would be simple. On this case he just should have gotten a new head before. Or not at all. The rule was setup to trip you otherwise. Adding a club after start of a round leaves way too many ways to get penalized. And no clear on course - off course , how long can a person walk to meet you before it constitutes " carrying ". Can that person walk the shaft off course assemble the head ands walk back etc". Surely " no replacements after the round has begun " is simpler.

I note that while you acknowledge a visual learning challenge, you nevertheless continue to attack the rules seemingly without awareness that you may be part of the problem. Of course there is no definitive answer on what "outside agencies" are, the term has been replaced by "outside influence." Its meaning is right there in the definitions. As is the meaning of "natural forces."

 

I must say that if you simply asked questions instead of attacked the resources made available to you I would be pleased.

 

I would like to offer some suggestions to people struggling with the club rule. Start with 14 clubs. If you break or damage one, continue to use it, fix it if you can, but don't replace it or any of its components. That will always keep you safe. And if something odd happens such as having to start with less than 14 clubs or someone else breaking your club, either avoid trying to replace one (always an option) or pull out your app set to "full rules" or "interpretations" before you do anything else. I'll add that I am an old bastxxx with a lot of round under my belt, and I've never needed to do anything that my above advice wouldn't cover today.

 

While all that advice is not hard to live by, if you want to get fancy, be sure you know what you're doing because the rest is tricky.

 

BTW, on the fancy end, a couple of posts have confused the issue of components being carried to/for you. Looky here:

 

4.1b(4)/1 – Club Components May Be Assembled When Not Carried By or For Player

 

Rule 4.1b(4) restricts a player from building a club from parts that he or she is carrying or parts that any other person is carrying for him or her. It does not restrict the player from retrieving parts to build a club or having parts brought to him or her.

For example, if a player is permitted to add a club (see Rule 4.1b(1)) or replace a damaged club (see Rule 4.1b(3)), club components brought from the clubhouse (such as the player's locker), the golf shop, or a manufacturer's truck, or other similar locations, are not considered to be "carried by anyone for the player during the round " and are allowed to be assembled by the player or anyone else.

 

IMO while somewhat complicated, the above is nevertheless clear. Once you've directed a person or persons to bring you components, as long as the components retrieved were not already being carried around on the course for you, they may be brought from off the course. It doesn't matter how long they take to get to you or if they arrive at the same time other than it may delay you're ability to use the soon-to-be assembled club.

 

Last part first.

 

 

So let's say Varner sends someone for a driver head before the round. Then he lays the shaft on the 1st tee for his agent or whomever to get when they get the head. The agent then comes to the first tee with a head and grabs the shaft and proceeds to assemble it and then walk to find Varner on the course . Legal ?

 

Modify that slightly now. The scorer sees the shaft on the first tee and picks it up thinking he is helping . Carries it until the agent shows up with the head. Assembled it . Now assume Varner doesn't know the agent is carrying it . Legal ?

 

 

Now if he does know he's carrying it ? I'm assuming illegal ?

I hope we can both agree that we're now deep in the weeds. While your questions may not be explicitly dealt with by the rules, I have a point of view, but I would confer with the Committee before I took any action to make sure they agreed:

 

If the shaft was laid on the first tee, it wasn't being carried for the player, so it's fair game to use.

 

If the shaft was being carried for the player but the player and his caddie had no knowledge of that fact and did not direct it, the player should not be held responsible.

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If the shaft was being carried for the player but the player and his caddie had no knowledge of that fact and did not direct it, the player should not be held responsible.

 

I'd be willing to bet a new Interpretation is being considered by the ruling bodies (at least on an individual level), or at least a clarification. It is simply a case they hadn't thought of.

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This is where I’m confused. It sounds like HV knew, or was told, the rule...which is why he left the shaft on the tee. So why did he then assemble it on the course after the scorer brought it to him? He could have given it to the guy with the head to assemble off course and returned afterwards.

 

WHERE it was assembled is not an issue at all. The problem was that club shaft had been carried FOR the player since the beginning of the round, rather than brought TO the player, with the club head, as HV had planned.

 

My opinion is that taking the combination off the course for assembly would not have solved the problem, since the shaft had been carried around for the player. However, I'm not sure on this point, and certainly can see how it would be otherwise.

 

Regarding L29's post...I'm generally not a fan of exceptions to rules, grey areas, etc...but in a situation like this, it seems like some discretion could be given to the officials. If HV indeed had talked to a ref on the first hole, why couldn't it be, "Sir, the club head is going on this shaft right here," and when the club head arrives, the ref say, "yes, you are putting it on the shaft you said you were going to use. No problem." As you say, can of worms.

Can the shaft be carried FOR the player if the player doesn't know it? Honest question. Not trying to be argumentative.

 

Careful TP, someone might come and quote the statement issued by the rules guy three or four times for you.


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Sawgrass – I agree it is deep in the weeds but. Isn’t it a possible scenario that was described in this incident? As in I’m still not sure that this player knew that the shaft was being carried around . Iunderstood initially that he had laid it on the Teebox and that it was picked up by the scorer? All questions not statements if that is now proven incorrect I’m all ears.

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This is where I’m confused. It sounds like HV knew, or was told, the rule...which is why he left the shaft on the tee. So why did he then assemble it on the course after the scorer brought it to him? He could have given it to the guy with the head to assemble off course and returned afterwards.

 

WHERE it was assembled is not an issue at all. The problem was that club shaft had been carried FOR the player since the beginning of the round, rather than brought TO the player, with the club head, as HV had planned.

 

My opinion is that taking the combination off the course for assembly would not have solved the problem, since the shaft had been carried around for the player. However, I'm not sure on this point, and certainly can see how it would be otherwise.

 

Regarding L29's post...I'm generally not a fan of exceptions to rules, grey areas, etc...but in a situation like this, it seems like some discretion could be given to the officials. If HV indeed had talked to a ref on the first hole, why couldn't it be, "Sir, the club head is going on this shaft right here," and when the club head arrives, the ref say, "yes, you are putting it on the shaft you said you were going to use. No problem." As you say, can of worms.

Can the shaft be carried FOR the player if the player doesn't know it? Honest question. Not trying to be argumentative.

 

Careful TP, someone might come and quote the statement issued by the rules guy three or four times for you.

Well it wouldn't be the first time I have poked the bear. I think there is a real possibility that HV was assessed a penalty in error or at the very least it is much more debatable than we have been led to believe.

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Can the shaft be carried FOR the player if the player doesn't know it? Honest question. Not trying to be argumentative.

 

I certainly hope that wouldn't be a rules breach...and Sawgrass agrees in his post right under yours.

 

Would like to see an interview with the player and/or rules official to know what discussions actually happened.

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