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Future of Golf: Tech v. Tradition


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Dustin johnson hits his driver 320-330 without juiced fairways. He hits a 6 iron probably like 200. So how often do you think a par 4 should pay 520 or 530? I don't get the things you are inferring. Yes if you hit the ball very far you will not be hitting long irons into par 4s very often.

 

I see no evidence the new balls benefit fast swings more than slow ones.

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Technology moves on. Worrying about the old golf courses becoming obsolete is foolish. Let the Senior tour and LPGA play the older courses that are maxed out yardage wise. The PGA Tour can play newer courses. Compare with baseball for example. The new parks being built are bigger because the players are stronger - just like current pro golfers.

 

Part of the issue is new courses are becoming obsolete too. Dr Mike Hurdzan told me at the 2013 Presidents Cup that he was super excited about Erin Hills getting the US Open and how he had designed a par 5 finishing hole that is uphill and almost 700y that the pros won't be able to hit in 2. A few years later the pros regularly hit that green in 2 I specifically recall Rickie Fowler hitting it with a long iron.

 

Another example after the 2017 PGA they interviewed Dustin Johnson who was complaining about one of the par 4 holes that forced a layup off the tee and forced him to hit 4 iron into the green each day. He made the comment that it was THE FIRST TIME ALL YEAR he had a hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a green on a par 4.

 

If you understand course design then you understand how someone reaches a 700 yd par 5 in two. Don't make it a million yards downhill and don't make it rock hard and no one will ever reach in two unless it's downwind.

 

18 at Erin Hills is uphill already. I promise I have a good understanding of course design and the guy I was talking to was the guy who actually designed the course.

 

It's more about how far these guys can now fly it in the air than anything.

 

My point about Dustin only illustrates how far the long hitters hit the ball now with the current technology. He didn't hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a par 4 until the PGA Championship.

 

That's a good point too about a course being "obsolete" low score wins so have at it. The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time, do we want to see extremely low scores win and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer.

 

Simply rolling back the ball 20% automatically makes the distance between the longer hitter and shorter hitter less. Also when the technology switched to solid core balls and the ball started to fly further it was not a simple % increase. The players that swung harder saw a larger increase percentage wise of distance. If you didn't swing 100-105mph you saw very little gain. If you were over that number you saw a larger percentage gain. It's about hitting it hard enough to really compress the ball some do and some don't and those that do see a larger increase in distance with the newer balls and technology.

 

I personally think bifurcation is the most likely outcome.

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No one is flying it that much further than Daly did. 400 drives don't fly 380 they fly 320. It's much ado about nothing. Make the courses softer.

 

People were flying it 300 20 yards ago.

 

It's a basic math problem. To hit it 700 yards uphill in 2 shots you're getting a ton of roll. Extremely simple. No one is hitting it 700 in 2 shots when it's wet.

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No one is flying it that much further than Daly did. 400 drives don't fly 380 they fly 320. It's much ado about nothing. Make the courses softer.

 

People were flying it 300 20 yards ago.

 

It's a basic math problem. To hit it 700 yards uphill in 2 shots you're getting a ton of roll. Extremely simple. No one is hitting it 700 in 2 shots when it's wet.

 

The average drive on the PGA tour is up 25 yards from 20 years ago and not one player averaged over 300 yards for the 1998 season (20y ago). John Daly was close but just under.

 

Do you attribute that difference entirely to firmer conditions?

 

I don't think the conditions got that much firmer from 2013 when I had that conversation with Dr Hurdzan to 2017 when they played the tournament that it would make any kind of significant difference. Also if you look at the hole in question the second shot is all carry over bunkers from where those guys were hitting from.

 

To prove my point please watch this clip of Justin Thomas. 299 uphill (little downwind) 3 wood over bunkers that lands soft and stops on the green next to the hole. No ton of roll needed.

 

 

To be fair yes if you soaked out a course and made it wetter it would play longer but your bringing a whole host of other issues into play and making the game very one dimensional.

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Technology moves on. Worrying about the old golf courses becoming obsolete is foolish. Let the Senior tour and LPGA play the older courses that are maxed out yardage wise. The PGA Tour can play newer courses. Compare with baseball for example. The new parks being built are bigger because the players are stronger - just like current pro golfers.

 

Part of the issue is new courses are becoming obsolete too. Dr Mike Hurdzan told me at the 2013 Presidents Cup that he was super excited about Erin Hills getting the US Open and how he had designed a par 5 finishing hole that is uphill and almost 700y that the pros won't be able to hit in 2. A few years later the pros regularly hit that green in 2 I specifically recall Rickie Fowler hitting it with a long iron.

 

Another example after the 2017 PGA they interviewed Dustin Johnson who was complaining about one of the par 4 holes that forced a layup off the tee and forced him to hit 4 iron into the green each day. He made the comment that it was THE FIRST TIME ALL YEAR he had a hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a green on a par 4.

 

If you understand course design then you understand how someone reaches a 700 yd par 5 in two. Don't make it a million yards downhill and don't make it rock hard and no one will ever reach in two unless it's downwind.

 

18 at Erin Hills is uphill already. I promise I have a good understanding of course design and the guy I was talking to was the guy who actually designed the course.

 

It's more about how far these guys can now fly it in the air than anything.

 

My point about Dustin only illustrates how far the long hitters hit the ball now with the current technology. He didn't hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a par 4 until the PGA Championship.

 

That's a good point too about a course being "obsolete" low score wins so have at it. The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time, do we want to see extremely low scores win and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer.

 

Simply rolling back the ball 20% automatically makes the distance between the longer hitter and shorter hitter less. Also when the technology switched to solid core balls and the ball started to fly further it was not a simple % increase. The players that swung harder saw a larger increase percentage wise of distance. If you didn't swing 100-105mph you saw very little gain. If you were over that number you saw a larger percentage gain. It's about hitting it hard enough to really compress the ball some do and some don't and those that do see a larger increase in distance with the newer balls and technology.

 

I personally think bifurcation is the most likely outcome.

 

"The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time" - Why care? Par is just a number..... Call them par 4's, if that makes one feel better.

 

"do we want to see extremely low scores win" - lowest score always wins. What that number is, relative to par, matters not.

 

"and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer." - An argument can be made that putting is the most important factor for professionals, certainly equal to driving distance.

 

Why the need to see pros score higher, relative to par? The average golfer can't come close to shooting even par - should we build shorter courses for them?

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I don't understand your point. Show me somebody reaching a 700 yd uphill hole in two without significant roll. Yes some can hit 3w 300 off deck if they lace it. You still need a 400+ yd drive which no one can do without tremendous roll. It's just not happening mathematically unless we're cutting off yardage with angles and etc. Again, no one can reach a 700 yd hole in two without wind, elevation or rock hard conditions.

 

It's not just the ball. People are in better shape, we better understand launch conditions necessary to hit ball far. The clubs are more forgiving enabling people to swing at essentially max speed without huge misses being common for elite players. Attributing it all to the ball makes no sense. Does the ball help? Absolutely but it's not the whole story.

 

People get better at sports over time. It is logical and completely expected that the 6000 yd courses of the 1800s would be rendered a joke by people better at golf, with better swings, better technology, better clubs and etc. It happens to all sports.

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In that clip Thomas has a helping wind and the ball rolls 5+ yards. All of these things matter. Maybe the ball adds 10, the wind adds 5, roll adds 5, the elevation there is a little above sea level so that adds a couple. So you have a guy who hits 3 wood 275 off deck now hitting it 300 and everyone loses their mind and claims its the ball, when it's multifactorial.

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Technology moves on. Worrying about the old golf courses becoming obsolete is foolish. Let the Senior tour and LPGA play the older courses that are maxed out yardage wise. The PGA Tour can play newer courses. Compare with baseball for example. The new parks being built are bigger because the players are stronger - just like current pro golfers.

 

Part of the issue is new courses are becoming obsolete too. Dr Mike Hurdzan told me at the 2013 Presidents Cup that he was super excited about Erin Hills getting the US Open and how he had designed a par 5 finishing hole that is uphill and almost 700y that the pros won't be able to hit in 2. A few years later the pros regularly hit that green in 2 I specifically recall Rickie Fowler hitting it with a long iron.

 

Another example after the 2017 PGA they interviewed Dustin Johnson who was complaining about one of the par 4 holes that forced a layup off the tee and forced him to hit 4 iron into the green each day. He made the comment that it was THE FIRST TIME ALL YEAR he had a hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a green on a par 4.

 

If you understand course design then you understand how someone reaches a 700 yd par 5 in two. Don't make it a million yards downhill and don't make it rock hard and no one will ever reach in two unless it's downwind.

 

18 at Erin Hills is uphill already. I promise I have a good understanding of course design and the guy I was talking to was the guy who actually designed the course.

 

It's more about how far these guys can now fly it in the air than anything.

 

My point about Dustin only illustrates how far the long hitters hit the ball now with the current technology. He didn't hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a par 4 until the PGA Championship.

 

That's a good point too about a course being "obsolete" low score wins so have at it. The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time, do we want to see extremely low scores win and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer.

 

Simply rolling back the ball 20% automatically makes the distance between the longer hitter and shorter hitter less. Also when the technology switched to solid core balls and the ball started to fly further it was not a simple % increase. The players that swung harder saw a larger increase percentage wise of distance. If you didn't swing 100-105mph you saw very little gain. If you were over that number you saw a larger percentage gain. It's about hitting it hard enough to really compress the ball some do and some don't and those that do see a larger increase in distance with the newer balls and technology.

 

I personally think bifurcation is the most likely outcome.

 

"The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time" - Why care? Par is just a number..... Call them par 4's, if that makes one feel better.

 

"do we want to see extremely low scores win" - lowest score always wins. What that number is, relative to par, matters not.

 

"and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer." - An argument can be made that putting is the most important factor for professionals, certainly equal to driving distance.

 

Why the need to see pros score higher, relative to par? The average golfer can't come close to shooting even par - should we build shorter courses for them?

 

All of that seems to matter to the USGA/R&A, Augusta National and others in the game otherwise we wouldnt even be having this conversation and they wouldn't setup courses for championships the way they do. Augusta wouldn't be building longer tees and spending millions of dollars to buy extra land from Augusta CC so they can lengthen 13.

 

They even tried almost 10 years ago when they changed the groove rule to try to combat the "bomb and gouge" game that was developing. The idea was to make distance less important and accuracy more important. It didn't work but it was an attempt to combat the same issues that are being discussed today.

 

We could just give into all of it that's certainly an option.

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I don't understand your point. Show me somebody reaching a 700 yd uphill hole in two without significant roll. Yes some can hit 3w 300 off deck if they lace it. You still need a 400+ yd drive which no one can do without tremendous roll. It's just not happening mathematically unless we're cutting off yardage with angles and etc. Again, no one can reach a 700 yd hole in two without wind, elevation or rock hard conditions.

 

It's not just the ball. People are in better shape, we better understand launch conditions necessary to hit ball far. The clubs are more forgiving enabling people to swing at essentially max speed without huge misses being common for elite players. Attributing it all to the ball makes no sense. Does the ball help? Absolutely but it's not the whole story.

 

People get better at sports over time. It is logical and completely expected that the 6000 yd courses of the 1800s would be rendered a joke by people better at golf, with better swings, better technology, better clubs and etc. It happens to all sports.

 

The hole was 667 that day so JT his his drive 368 which is not that out of the ordinary for guys on Tour these days.

 

I never once said it was all the ball. Quite the contrary, there are MANY different variables that have helped increase distance. I just happen to think the ball is the most likely variable for the USGA/R&A to change/regulate. We will see.

 

Were not talking about getting better at golf just longer. They are not always the same thing.

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Swimming records keep falling. Maybe we should thicken the water. 20 pound Speedos? Lengthen the yard/meter? ?

 

Nobody is complaining that the guys on the long drive tour are hitting it further. That's the only measure of their skill like speed the only measure of swimming skill. The unique thing about golf traditionally is it takes multiple skills to succeed.

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I don't understand your point. Show me somebody reaching a 700 yd uphill hole in two without significant roll. Yes some can hit 3w 300 off deck if they lace it. You still need a 400+ yd drive which no one can do without tremendous roll. It's just not happening mathematically unless we're cutting off yardage with angles and etc. Again, no one can reach a 700 yd hole in two without wind, elevation or rock hard conditions.

 

It's not just the ball. People are in better shape, we better understand launch conditions necessary to hit ball far. The clubs are more forgiving enabling people to swing at essentially max speed without huge misses being common for elite players. Attributing it all to the ball makes no sense. Does the ball help? Absolutely but it's not the whole story.

 

People get better at sports over time. It is logical and completely expected that the 6000 yd courses of the 1800s would be rendered a joke by people better at golf, with better swings, better technology, better clubs and etc. It happens to all sports.

 

The hole was 667 that day so JT his his drive 368 which is not that out of the ordinary for guys on Tour these days.

 

I never once said it was all the ball. Quite the contrary, there are MANY different variables that have helped increase distance. I just happen to think the ball is the most likely variable for the USGA/R&A to change/regulate. We will see.

 

Were not talking about getting better at golf just longer. They are not always the same thing.

 

jt isn't hitting it 368 without rock-hard fairway or help

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It's a wonderful time of day for another episode of post breakdown from Ferg.

 

 

 

Re: I'm curious what y'all think about the increase in technology in golf clubs and how it's affecting the professional game.

I am not a professional. As an amateur – I love it. However, I do realize 50% of the tech gains is “marketing gibberish.”

 

 

Re: I know Fred Couples voiced his opinion about this saying something along the lines of how golf was being ruined (in a sense).

Fred is not a bright guy.

 

 

Re: There's also been statements that courses that were well designed (e.g. Cypress) withstood the test of time and still poses great challenge for even the longest of hitters.

What statements? Who said this?

 

 

Re: That being said, there must be a break point where the courses just aren't long enough to continue to pose a challenge for Tour players.

Marketing, advertising and the insatiable desire for more tour cash will ensure there will never be a break point.

 

 

Re: Should courses become longer?

No. Dial back the ball.

 

Re: Should fairways become tighter?

No. Dial back the ball.

 

Re: Should there be more hazards/obstacles?

No. Dial back the ball.

 

 

Re: In short, how do courses keep up with the technology and remain challenging for Tour players?

Tour players, at their best, can shot a 65 at any course. I still have yet to see a competitive round with a player making 18 straight birdies.

 

Let’s make short hitting amateurs hit even shorter that’s bound to grow the game

 

What bs. Did making the ball supercharged grow the game? Seems like since the prov1 came out all I have heard is that the game is dying.

 

The ball is longer now than ever and play is shrinking. Every point of “contention” in golf always has someone throw out “grow the game rubble rubble rubble....”. Change the rules, it will grow the game. Rules changes then became a reason the game isn’t growing. Tour balatas and Stratas weren’t keeping people from playing, and prov1s aren’t getting people on the course.

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I don't understand your point. Show me somebody reaching a 700 yd uphill hole in two without significant roll. Yes some can hit 3w 300 off deck if they lace it. You still need a 400+ yd drive which no one can do without tremendous roll. It's just not happening mathematically unless we're cutting off yardage with angles and etc. Again, no one can reach a 700 yd hole in two without wind, elevation or rock hard conditions.

 

It's not just the ball. People are in better shape, we better understand launch conditions necessary to hit ball far. The clubs are more forgiving enabling people to swing at essentially max speed without huge misses being common for elite players. Attributing it all to the ball makes no sense. Does the ball help? Absolutely but it's not the whole story.

 

People get better at sports over time. It is logical and completely expected that the 6000 yd courses of the 1800s would be rendered a joke by people better at golf, with better swings, better technology, better clubs and etc. It happens to all sports.

 

The hole was 667 that day so JT his his drive 368 which is not that out of the ordinary for guys on Tour these days.

 

I never once said it was all the ball. Quite the contrary, there are MANY different variables that have helped increase distance. I just happen to think the ball is the most likely variable for the USGA/R&A to change/regulate. We will see.

 

Were not talking about getting better at golf just longer. They are not always the same thing.

 

jt isn't hitting it 368 without rock-hard fairway or help

 

JT says he carries it 310 when they went through his yardages in Golf Magazine. Having it end up going 368 when u carry it 310 is not unreasonable and does not require any crazy bounces or rock hard baked out fairways. Remember he is carrying the ball 10 yards longer than the longest guy on Tour was hitting it with carry and roll 20 years ago. The ball is always going to roll when it hits the ground with a driver and when u hit it as hard as JT does with 2000 or less spin your going to get alot of roll. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

 

I'd actually argue that fitting capabilities and understanding launch characteristics as well as larger drivers that are infinitely more forgiving on off center hits (think about it this way if I swing 100mph and you swing 110mph you will virtually always hit it past me even if you miss the center drastically and I hit it dead nuts square. Distance off the tee is no longer about hitting it solid its about swinging as fast as possible and making sure the face is close to square) has contributed to the new crop of longer hitters moreso than the ball or anything else. That said you can't outlaw fitting, or unlearn proper launch characteristics and they are not going to goto a smaller headed driver standard so that leaves the ball as the only option to combat the distance increase.

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Why does golf seem to be the only sport that is obsessively worried about scoring improving? So what if scoring is lower now than it used to be? Fifty years ago the record for the mile was 3:51, now it stands at 3:43 (and it was only 1954 that someone cracked 4 minutes). The pole vault was 17' 10", now it is over 20'. The 100m dash was 9.95, now it's 9.57. One of the most dominating players in the NBA (Russell) was a 6'10" center; now that would be a small forward.

 

So what if scores get lower? If someone goes out and wins a US Open shooting -12, that doesn't make the winning score of 50 years ago any less an achievement (which was Moody at +1). Shooting a -20 at a British Open doesn't make Jacklin's -4 fifty years ago any less impressive. Golf has shown it can move past the gutta percha and hickories.

 

Let the professionals play the game at the highest level. Track & Field doesn't make Bolt run in 5 pound ankle weights to keep the record in check. They aren't making vaulting poles 2 feet shorter to keep vaulters under 18 feet. They don't put a little drag chute behind swimmers to keep Phelps from eclipsing early records. They aren't making the basket 12 feet high to make it harder to shoot a basketball.

 

Athletes are bigger and stronger, and advances in agronomy and maintenance have made golf courses much more consistent, with faster fairways and much faster greens. Let the scoring fall where it will. People go to track and swimming meets and love to see records broken, and they love to watch the best golfers in the world make birdies and occasional eagles. The only thing that throttling back equipment or making course a lot longer will do is disadvantage the common player and make the courses much more expensive. It won't throttle the Tour players nearly as much as it will throttle the growth of the game.

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Why does golf seem to be the only sport that is obsessively worried about scoring improving? So what if scoring is lower now than it used to be? Fifty years ago the record for the mile was 3:51, now it stands at 3:43 (and it was only 1954 that someone cracked 4 minutes). The pole vault was 17' 10", now it is over 20'. The 100m dash was 9.95, now it's 9.57. One of the most dominating players in the NBA (Russell) was a 6'10" center; now that would be a small forward.

 

So what if scores get lower? If someone goes out and wins a US Open shooting -12, that doesn't make the winning score of 50 years ago any less an achievement (which was Moody at +1). Shooting a -20 at a British Open doesn't make Jacklin's -4 fifty years ago any less impressive. Golf has shown it can move past the gutta percha and hickories.

 

Let the professionals play the game at the highest level. Track & Field doesn't make Bolt run in 5 pound ankle weights to keep the record in check. They aren't making vaulting poles 2 feet shorter to keep vaulters under 18 feet. They don't put a little drag chute behind swimmers to keep Phelps from eclipsing early records. They aren't making the basket 12 feet high to make it harder to shoot a basketball.

 

Athletes are bigger and stronger, and advances in agronomy and maintenance have made golf courses much more consistent, with faster fairways and much faster greens. Let the scoring fall where it will. People go to track and swimming meets and love to see records broken, and they love to watch the best golfers in the world make birdies and occasional eagles. The only thing that throttling back equipment or making course a lot longer will do is disadvantage the common player and make the courses much more expensive. It won't throttle the Tour players nearly as much as it will throttle the growth of the game.

 

I agree in the sense that I have no problem with high level players showing high level skills and shooting a low number. I love seeing that alot more than I love seeing tricked up silly course setups. What I don't want to see is distance being the main and all important factor of who can be a high level player. There is ALOT more to golf than hitting it far. This discussion is not about scoring its about distance which again are and should be 2 different things. The other examples you give are one dimensional sports/skills that are specifically measuring one thing. Golf requires many skills to be successful not just bombing it far.

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60 yards of roll on a drive = rock hard fairways. Not sure where you play? I've literally never had one roll 60 in my entire golfing career

 

You also don't have 175+ mph ball speed with 1800 rpm spin (I assume). Not saying that's not a long drive for him but if u average 310 in the air, 368 total is not totally unreasonable for a drive that you really catch and swing hard at. (similar to the swing and strike on the next shot when he carried it 290+ w a 3 wood). The tour and US Open specifically do have firm conditions but that's only a small part of the distance those guys get. I play all over but live in MI and I get plenty of roll at my home course but have also played plenty of places where I can find my ball in my ball mark in the fairway.

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Swimming records keep falling. Maybe we should thicken the water. 20 pound Speedos? Lengthen the yard/meter? ?

 

Nobody is complaining that the guys on the long drive tour are hitting it further. That's the only measure of their skill like speed the only measure of swimming skill. The unique thing about golf traditionally is it takes multiple skills to succeed.

 

The bombers on tour still have to putt.

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60 yards of roll on a drive = rock hard fairways. Not sure where you play? I've literally never had one roll 60 in my entire golfing career

 

In some areas this is not abnormal. I can get a 5 iron to roll 60 yards if hit correctly in Phoenix half of the year (Troon courses excluded). A slightly toed 3 wood, downwind in May can easily roll 60 yards at most courses here. An intentional bullet driver on the right hole can easily carry 225 and end up 300+. 60 yards of roll isn’t unusual if you hit the right shot on the right hole.

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Some of the posts are laughable. Making a system for ball fitttng so a slower swinger can have a hotter ball is just like saying you believe there shouldn’t be winners and losers in sport. Everyone gets a trophy (thanks Oprah)!!!! What I love most about golf is how it relates to life. Life isn’t fair, so why should golf be fair? If someone hits it longer then they just hit it longer. They still have to put the ball in the hole. I’m an average amateur in terms of yardage off the tee for a 42 year old (240-250 usually). I play with guys that hit it 290-300 and some that hit it 220-230. All of us win skins and the overall low man money pot because on any given day, all of us have great putting days. That’s what it’s all about.

 

Courses don’t need to be longer or harder (for amateurs), clubs don’t need to be altered and the balls don’t need to be dialed back. Just enjoy the evolution of mankind and either adapt or quit.

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In that clip Thomas has a helping wind and the ball rolls 5+ yards. All of these things matter. Maybe the ball adds 10, the wind adds 5, roll adds 5, the elevation there is a little above sea level so that adds a couple. So you have a guy who hits 3 wood 275 off deck now hitting it 300 and everyone loses their mind and claims its the ball, when it's multifactorial.

 

I've been reading about this situation for years, and never seen the work "multifactorial" ever, not once. Congratulations!

 

 

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So there a few hundred guys in the world who hit the ball "too far" and straight enough to take advantage of it and we are going to change the entire sport?

Non-issue.

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The idea is to decrease the delta between the long hitter and short hitter.

 

Whose idea is that? I doubt that many would agree.

 

Many people have come out in favor of rolling back the ball. Including Nicklaus, Palmer, Tiger and other top golf figures. I'm not sure it will ever happen but there is plenty of support for the idea. The other idea thrown around is bifurcation where the pros play w different equipment. This is what Tiger supports, roll back ball for pros keep juiced ball for Ams. Will be interesting to see if something happens w this I believe it's now or never and I know the USGA has indicated more than once they are working on a decision.

 

That wasn't my question. My question is who made this an objective; "The idea is to decrease the delta between the long hitter and short hitter. "

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Technology moves on. Worrying about the old golf courses becoming obsolete is foolish. Let the Senior tour and LPGA play the older courses that are maxed out yardage wise. The PGA Tour can play newer courses. Compare with baseball for example. The new parks being built are bigger because the players are stronger - just like current pro golfers.

 

Part of the issue is new courses are becoming obsolete too. Dr Mike Hurdzan told me at the 2013 Presidents Cup that he was super excited about Erin Hills getting the US Open and how he had designed a par 5 finishing hole that is uphill and almost 700y that the pros won't be able to hit in 2. A few years later the pros regularly hit that green in 2 I specifically recall Rickie Fowler hitting it with a long iron.

 

Another example after the 2017 PGA they interviewed Dustin Johnson who was complaining about one of the par 4 holes that forced a layup off the tee and forced him to hit 4 iron into the green each day. He made the comment that it was THE FIRST TIME ALL YEAR he had a hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a green on a par 4.

 

If you understand course design then you understand how someone reaches a 700 yd par 5 in two. Don't make it a million yards downhill and don't make it rock hard and no one will ever reach in two unless it's downwind.

 

18 at Erin Hills is uphill already. I promise I have a good understanding of course design and the guy I was talking to was the guy who actually designed the course.

 

It's more about how far these guys can now fly it in the air than anything.

 

My point about Dustin only illustrates how far the long hitters hit the ball now with the current technology. He didn't hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a par 4 until the PGA Championship.

 

That's a good point too about a course being "obsolete" low score wins so have at it. The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time, do we want to see extremely low scores win and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer.

 

Simply rolling back the ball 20% automatically makes the distance between the longer hitter and shorter hitter less. Also when the technology switched to solid core balls and the ball started to fly further it was not a simple % increase. The players that swung harder saw a larger increase percentage wise of distance. If you didn't swing 100-105mph you saw very little gain. If you were over that number you saw a larger percentage gain. It's about hitting it hard enough to really compress the ball some do and some don't and those that do see a larger increase in distance with the newer balls and technology.

 

I personally think bifurcation is the most likely outcome.

 

"The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time" - Why care? Par is just a number..... Call them par 4's, if that makes one feel better.

 

"do we want to see extremely low scores win" - lowest score always wins. What that number is, relative to par, matters not.

 

"and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer." - An argument can be made that putting is the most important factor for professionals, certainly equal to driving distance.

 

Why the need to see pros score higher, relative to par? The average golfer can't come close to shooting even par - should we build shorter courses for them?

 

Exactly! Why are so many people hung up on "par"?

 

And, BTW, winning scores are NOT going down. Here are the scoring average leaders over the past 15 years.

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pinhigh27 wrote:
cristphoto wrote:

 

Technology moves on. Worrying about the old golf courses becoming obsolete is foolish. Let the Senior tour and LPGA play the older courses that are maxed out yardage wise. The PGA Tour can play newer courses. Compare with baseball for example. The new parks being built are bigger because the players are stronger - just like current pro golfers.

 

 

 

Part of the issue is new courses are becoming obsolete too. Dr Mike Hurdzan told me at the 2013 Presidents Cup that he was super excited about Erin Hills getting the US Open and how he had designed a par 5 finishing hole that is uphill and almost 700y that the pros won't be able to hit in 2. A few years later the pros regularly hit that green in 2 I specifically recall Rickie Fowler hitting it with a long iron.

 

 

 

Another example after the 2017 PGA they interviewed Dustin Johnson who was complaining about one of the par 4 holes that forced a layup off the tee and forced him to hit 4 iron into the green each day. He made the comment that it was THE FIRST TIME ALL YEAR he had a hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a green on a par 4.

 

 

 

If you understand course design then you understand how someone reaches a 700 yd par 5 in two. Don't make it a million yards downhill and don't make it rock hard and no one will ever reach in two unless it's downwind.

 

 

 

18 at Erin Hills is uphill already. I promise I have a good understanding of course design and the guy I was talking to was the guy who actually designed the course.

 

 

 

It's more about how far these guys can now fly it in the air than anything.

 

 

 

My point about Dustin only illustrates how far the long hitters hit the ball now with the current technology. He didn't hit a club longer than a 6 iron into a par 4 until the PGA Championship.

 

 

 

That's a good point too about a course being "obsolete" low score wins so have at it. The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time, do we want to see extremely low scores win and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer.

 

 

 

Simply rolling back the ball 20% automatically makes the distance between the longer hitter and shorter hitter less. Also when the technology switched to solid core balls and the ball started to fly further it was not a simple % increase. The players that swung harder saw a larger increase percentage wise of distance. If you didn't swing 100-105mph you saw very little gain. If you were over that number you saw a larger percentage gain. It's about hitting it hard enough to really compress the ball some do and some don't and those that do see a larger increase in distance with the newer balls and technology.

 

 

 

I personally think bifurcation is the most likely outcome.

 

 

 

"The question is do we want par 5s to be reachable in 2 for most of the field all the time" - Why care? Par is just a number..... Call them par 4's, if that makes one feel better.

 

 

 

"do we want to see extremely low scores win" - lowest score always wins. What that number is, relative to par, matters not.

 

 

 

"and do we want distance to be the most important factor when it comes to being a top level golfer." - An argument can be made that putting is the most important factor for professionals, certainly equal to driving distance.

 

 

 

Why the need to see pros score higher, relative to par? The average golfer can't come close to shooting even par - should we build shorter courses for them?

 

 

 

Exactly! Why are so many people hung up on "par"?

 

 

 

And, BTW, winning scores are NOT going down. Here are the scoring average leaders over the past 15 years.It hasn't gone down because they have changed the way they setup courses and added extra length to combat the longer hitter.  The issue being you can't keep doing that without fundamentally changing the way the game is played and the skill set that it takes to win.  Plus continued added length = added cost and added real estate size requirements.  Also the general playing public often tries to emulate the pros so it's hard to tell them to tee it forward while the pros keep moving further and further back. 

  

FREE AGENT CLUB HO NO MO!
Ari Techner
National Custom Works nationalcustomworks.com
[email protected]
IG: @nationalcustom
Twitter: @WorksNational
(still a huge club HO)

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The idea is to decrease the delta between the long hitter and short hitter.

 

 

 

Whose idea is that? I doubt that many would agree.

 

 

 

Many people have come out in favor of rolling back the ball. Including Nicklaus, Palmer, Tiger and other top golf figures. I'm not sure it will ever happen but there is plenty of support for the idea. The other idea thrown around is bifurcation where the pros play w different equipment. This is what Tiger supports, roll back ball for pros keep juiced ball for Ams. Will be interesting to see if something happens w this I believe it's now or never and I know the USGA has indicated more than once they are working on a decision.

 

 

 

That wasn't my question. My question is who made this an objective; "The idea is to decrease the delta between the long hitter and short hitter. "This is just a part of rolling back the ball.  It's the specific reason why some guys like Phil are against the idea. 

 

Personally I am against bifurcation I hate the idea of not playing the same game as the pros but I think that might be the most likely outcome.  Im also against rolling back the ball for everyone personally I just think the golfing public won't accept hitting it shorter and I think that's reasonable. 

 

I'm all for whatever helps grow the game.  That's always #1 to me.  I also like the tradition of seeing many of the Majors held at courses that have held them for years and I'd hate to see that tradition end due to lack of length.  

 

FREE AGENT CLUB HO NO MO!
Ari Techner
National Custom Works nationalcustomworks.com
[email protected]
IG: @nationalcustom
Twitter: @WorksNational
(still a huge club HO)

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