Tiger Woods still best iron player on tour

[Schley]

One thing to consider is the evolution of the strengthening of lofts in irons over the years. Today's irons are as much as 2 clubs stronger than the 1980's/90's sets for example. That 9 iron you are hitting 10 yards longer is probably a degree or two stronger. Game improvement clubs and blade lofts certainly differ and look at tour players clubs and they vary.

 

What does that have to do with this discussion? Tigers iron lofts are pretty old school. What difference does it make if Justin Thomas is hitting a club with an 8 on it instead of a 7?

 

We are talking about great ball strikers not who hits a 9 iron the farthest.

 

Dly....... my friend..... Tiger actually has weaker lofts than what you would call standard today and more old school. I believe his PW is 50 degrees for example as opposed to 46 degrees many are using. It makes his feats more amazing for as it is we hear him hitting a 7 iron for example at PB in the 2000 US Open from 205 yards to number 6 out of deep rough and severely uphill. He was using what for most of us was an 8iron loft and hit it to 15 feet.

 

Here is an article that speaks to this. https://golfweek.com/2014/08/20/tiger-woods-golf-equipment-nike-golf-irons/

 

Tiger, do you find yourself verbalizing to Mike or to Rick in different ways now that you have been with Nike for so long? Are you more technical?

Woods: Yeah, I understand things like CG and the difference bounce can make in a 9-iron, 7-iron, 5-iron and those things. One thing that has been consistent throughout, and Rick and Mike T can say this too, is that I have basically played the same lofts, the same grips, basically since I was 14 or 15 years old. I’m not part of this wave where the pitching wedge is 45 degrees. That’s my 9-iron!

All of my lofts are very weak in this day and age, so when these guys build products and put them in front of me, it’s going to look very different to me than it’s going to look like to a guy like Rory (McIlroy). Different generations, different lofts, different eyes.

I’ve been lucky enough to have Mikey here, and Rick, and we all grew up in the same era when the lofts were weaker, and I haven’t changed from that. They know what that looks like because that’s what they grew up playing. In this day, when guys are hitting a wedge 150, 155 because it’s 45 degrees, that’s a totally different look. I picked up Rory’s wedge last night and was like, “Holy cow! That’s about my 9-iron,” and it is.

These guys are old school enough . . . I mean Rick’s dad (Bobby Nichols) won the PGA Championship and played on the tour for a very long time. Mike here worked with Hogan. You can’t get much better than that.

But I also started to learn about how clubs are made and what I need to feel. Like when we put a dowel in my irons, these are all feel things. I can tell you now what it feels like through the dirt, what it feels like through the entire motion of the club swing. What the ball should be doing. Then I have to articulate my feels, and they put numbers to it. Mike then goes off and grinds away, and then he’ll come back and I’ll hit it and go, “Ooh, we’re on to something.’ Then he goes and makes five different 7-irons and grinds them all differently.

That to me is fun, testing product. Especially when I’m playing well. I think that is the best time to test. Sometimes we’ll have a testing session coming up and I’ll say that I’m not playing well enough, let’s hold off, give me a couple of weeks or a month to get my game back where I need to be and then let’s test. You always want to test when you are playing great, because obviously you can see the differences.

 

Umm...okay? I think that’s the point I was trying to make?

 

Well if it was we all missed it. It certainly is relevant for all of us as the feats of him using XYZ club are actually weaker than our own so...... be impressed or not, we are.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

NM

[Poor Posture]

fake news

[slimeone]

Arguably the best long iron player of all time

Ben Hogan's corpse just snarled.

[gvogel]

Arguably the best long iron player of all time

 

There is a guy named Jack who was known for hitting some pretty good long irons.

 

Jack's long iron distance is now a 7 or 8 iron.

 

Not true. Jack could hit a 1 iron 240-ish when needed. No one is hitting a legit 8 iron 240.

 

With a crappy ball.

[widow-maker]

TW is the greatest ball striker of all time. In 20 years, there will be someone better, and we will all be saying he isn't better than TW because we will be comparing that dude's every day play with TW highlight reels. Pretty much what's been going on for a while now.

Tiger hits far too many of his tee shots off line to call him the greatest ball striker of all time. I can buy him being a candidate for great iron play, but he plays far too often from the rough to be claiming greatest ball striker of all time. That's a title that has to include every club in the bag.

[ArniesArmy1234]

Tiger will go don as best in history and stats are certainly supporting him and Jack, Johnnie, etc. one of the best ball strikers I have seen in person is Tommy Fleetwood and Henrik Stenson. Those are two guys that after hearing the sound of them hitting the ball, make me want to go spend time on my game and dial it in. Just different sounds. Obviously Tiger is there as wee, just pointing out a few more

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Arguably the best long iron player of all time

 

There is a guy named Jack who was known for hitting some pretty good long irons.

 

Jack's long iron distance is now a 7 or 8 iron.

 

Not true. Jack could hit a 1 iron 240-ish when needed. No one is hitting a legit 8 iron 240.

 

With a crappy ball.

 

Wow. That's amazing. I always hear that Nicklaus could do this or that "when he wanted to". I wonder why he didn't want to. I know, because his accuracy would suffer. It's simply wild that he could probably hit it 400 on average with a driver nowadays, if he wanted to. Who would ever want to do that, though.

[redfirebird08]

TW’s iron game has been pretty inconsistent so far this season. We shall see if he can get it more dialed in as the schedule moves along.

[Schley]

> @redfirebird08 said:

> TW’s iron game has been pretty inconsistent so far this season. We shall see if he can get it more dialed in as the schedule moves along.

 

So I guess he got it dialed in huh? :D

[straightshot7]

Go ahead and remove iron from the thread title.

[Frasier Crane]

> @MattyO1984 said:

> Great stat that I head recently is that he ranked 169th or thereby in distance covered off the tee. So essentially, 168 guys are on average closer to the hole than he is off the tee but he is still number 1 when it comes to strokes gained with irons. Not only is he better than the rest he is better than them from further away.

 

I remember an interview with Sean Foley a few years ago, and IIRC, he said Tiger's biggest statistical advantage against the field was distances 175-225 yards.

[bladehunter]

> @Golfingfanatic said:

> Arguably the best long iron player of all time

 

Bingo !

[Golfjack]

Tiger is doing decent (just decent and not great to his high standards) this year too. .7 SG approach the green at 14th. 7th Strokes gained overall. Not quite domination but puts him in the mix every time he tees it up.

[gators78]

I'm not disagreeing with the idea Tiger is insane with the irons, but last year he was 3rd strokes gained approach with 0.883, Henrik and Keegan were ahead of him.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02568.2018.html

[cdnglf]

> @gators78 said:

> I'm not disagreeing with the idea Tiger is insane with the irons, but last year he was 3rd strokes gained approach with 0.883, Henrik and Keegan were ahead of him.

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02568.2018.html

 

Heretic

[bladehunter]

Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

 

Only stat that matters is wins.

[Schley]

> @bladehunter said:

> Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

>

> Only stat that matters is wins.

 

Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

[bladehunter]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> >

> > Only stat that matters is wins.

>

> Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

 

lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

 

But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

[Cool Runnings]

Schley:

“Tiger finished 2018 as the #1 strokes gained approach to the green by a pretty good margin… these stats don't lie”

 

They do if they’re not true. In 2018 Tiger finished 3rd in SG Approach at +0.883 with Stenson 1st in SG Approach in 2018 by a “pretty good margin” at +0.960. These are the correct facts directly from PGA Tours own site.

 

But I do agree Tiger is a great iron player.

 

> @"Schley " said:

> Young guns.... we have heard this phrase for like what 10 years it seems? Fowler, McIroy, now Speith, Thomas, DeChambeau....

>

>

>

> Let's just talk iron play. The strokes gained stat I wished was around during the Jack Nicklaus days for we could have even more evidence of him as not only a great champion, but also a great iron player.

>

>

>

> Tiger finished 2018 as the #1 strokes gained approach to the green by a pretty good margin. DeChambeau was 10th at .599, but Tiger was 1st at .938 which is a pretty large gap. He can shape it with tremendous accuracy using the fade, and although not his preferred ball flight and also play right to left when needed.

>

>

>

> So all those who are skeptical of TW and his ability, these stats don't lie and aren't by chance. The guy is still the best with his irons and when he puts the ball in the fairway off the tee which in 2019 he is using more 3woods and cut drivers his iron play is so good that it will give him chances to win almost every event he plays.

>

>

>

> BTW Stenson and Keegan Bradley (which I'm not a fan of) are also great iron players. For young guns however I think Justin Thomas will end up being the best iron player of his generation.

 

 

[Cool Runnings]

It’s not “useless” for a “non-tour player”, it can still can offer you real objective insight as to where you’re gaining losing strokes to yourself round to round and season to season if you’re keeping track. The SG insight already gathered surrounding non-tour players is also very insightful as to where to put their limited time into practice to maximise results.

 

Prior to Strokes Gained, many professional players would create myths about their game strengths and weaknesses. And if top pros were doing this then non-professionals would certainly be doing this also.

 

And not having SG doesn’t mean players can’t or won’t win (there always has to be a winner regardless of a players knowledge), it just provides greater insight for those players who unknowingly create myths about their games and further nuanced insight for those players already with a greater base level of knowledge.

 

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > >

> > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> >

> > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

>

> lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

>

> But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

 

 

[Schley]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > >

> > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> >

> > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

>

> lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

>

> But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

 

It is only a tool to measure effectiveness of your skill vs. peers, which to many golfers are already aware of for you can't fake confidence. It just is a more objective way to give everyone data to prove so and so is better at so and so in XYZ skill. I love strokes gained, but one of the biggest flaws is that it doesn't take into account the courses golfers are playing. I can play a course with US Open conditions and those get lumped together just as my rounds at the Bob Hope. The putting stats at the Masters from inside 10 feet count the same as those from the Jimmy Bob's Classic with much easier greens. If length and your result from that length is the only thing that matters (not difficulty of the course itself) then it has flaws.

 

 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

He's #1 In GIR percentage while being 3rd from last in average approach shot distance (Stenson is last interestingly). I think those are probably 1a and 1b at the moment. When he dominated I don't think anyone was close though.

[Cool Runnings]

FYI, Strokes Gained analysis is adjusted to each course that the PGA Tour and players are competing on.

 

And Strokes Gained is used for far more than “measuring effectiveness of your skill vs peers”. Here’s a list of what tour players & their coaches have said how they use SG…

 

– “Player goals for playing each hole”

– “Influences how aggressively to play holes”

– “Make better decisions on the course (aim / club / shot kind)”

– “Devise a strategy / in-depth game plan for playing the course”

– “Analyze game week-by-week”

– “Help understand strengths & weaknesses”

– “Where players can get better”

– “Where players are losing / gaining shots to competitors

– “Where to score better in each game-area”

– “Where do players make up strokes”

– “Top players ranking after the first round”

– “Optimal position needed for moving on weekend”

– “Gaining confidence of putting performance”

– “Most accurate way to measure overall putting performance on tour”

– “Putting Performance from 30 feet (and other distances)”

– “Knowledge of risk/reward scenarios on the course”

– “Insight of new course toughest / easiest holes”

– “Type of pin placement conducive to birdies compared to years past”

– “Hidden insight about Augusta (and other) par-5 holes”

– “Scoring when players lay-up / leave ball short of green / close to green”

 

Jordan Spieth and his coach use SG to plan their entire playing & practice season around which includes their course strategy - they’ve been doing this for many seasons now. And they’re just one of many of the world’s best player / coaches using SG in this way.

 

> @"Schley " said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > > >

> > > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> > >

> > > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

> >

> > lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

> >

> > But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

>

> It is only a tool to measure effectiveness of your skill vs. peers, which to many golfers are already aware of for you can't fake confidence. It just is a more objective way to give everyone data to prove so and so is better at so and so in XYZ skill. I love strokes gained, but one of the biggest flaws is that it doesn't take into account the courses golfers are playing. I can play a course with US Open conditions and those get lumped together just as my rounds at the Bob Hope. The putting stats at the Masters from inside 10 feet count the same as those from the Jimmy Bob's Classic with much easier greens. If length and your result from that length is the only thing that matters (not difficulty of the course itself) then it has flaws.

>

>

 

 

[Shilgy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > >

> > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> >

> > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

>

> lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

>

> But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

 

Maybe because every week there is a winner. Even in your club comps. Back in the day-many years before you were playing-we had to just hit balls and see what we could make work. Yes, you could have an instructor but it was more of a crapshoot what it is today. That is why there so many funky swings on tour in days past. Impact is what matters and there are many ways you CAN get there. But there are way fewer EFFICIENT ways to get there and the modern teaching tech helps players get there faster and stay there easier.

[bladehunter]

> @"Schley " said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > > >

> > > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> > >

> > > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

> >

> > lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

> >

> > But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

>

> It is only a tool to measure effectiveness of your skill vs. peers, which to many golfers are already aware of for you can't fake confidence. It just is a more objective way to give everyone data to prove so and so is better at so and so in XYZ skill. I love strokes gained, but one of the biggest flaws is that it doesn't take into account the courses golfers are playing. I can play a course with US Open conditions and those get lumped together just as my rounds at the Bob Hope. The putting stats at the Masters from inside 10 feet count the same as those from the Jimmy Bob's Classic with much easier greens. If length and your result from that length is the only thing that matters (not difficulty of the course itself) then it has flaws.

>

>

 

> @"Schley " said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > > >

> > > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> > >

> > > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

> >

> > lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

> >

> > But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

>

> It is only a tool to measure effectiveness of your skill vs. peers, which to many golfers are already aware of for you can't fake confidence. It just is a more objective way to give everyone data to prove so and so is better at so and so in XYZ skill. I love strokes gained, but one of the biggest flaws is that it doesn't take into account the courses golfers are playing. I can play a course with US Open conditions and those get lumped together just as my rounds at the Bob Hope. The putting stats at the Masters from inside 10 feet count the same as those from the Jimmy Bob's Classic with much easier greens. If length and your result from that length is the only thing that matters (not difficulty of the course itself) then it has flaws.

>

>

 

> @"Schley " said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @"Schley " said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > > >

> > > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> > >

> > > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

> >

> > lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

> >

> > But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

>

> It is only a tool to measure effectiveness of your skill vs. peers, which to many golfers are already aware of for you can't fake confidence. It just is a more objective way to give everyone data to prove so and so is better at so and so in XYZ skill. I love strokes gained, but one of the biggest flaws is that it doesn't take into account the courses golfers are playing. I can play a course with US Open conditions and those get lumped together just as my rounds at the Bob Hope. The putting stats at the Masters from inside 10 feet count the same as those from the Jimmy Bob's Classic with much easier greens. If length and your result from that length is the only thing that matters (not difficulty of the course itself) then it has flaws.

>

>

 

Yes but speaking strictly for the am player. And correct me if I’m wrong. ( I could be). Strokes gained metrics use tour player averages as a base . So we can’t use it to test against our peers. There isn’t any data for that. And even at a scratch level I found strokes gained to be pretty much a downer for putting stats vs tour averages. A bottomless pit of “ you suck “ is what it told me.

[Obee]

> @"Frasier Crane" said:

> > @MattyO1984 said:

> > Great stat that I head recently is that he ranked 169th or thereby in distance covered off the tee. So essentially, 168 guys are on average closer to the hole than he is off the tee but he is still number 1 when it comes to strokes gained with irons. Not only is he better than the rest he is better than them from further away.

>

> I remember an interview with Sean Foley a few years ago, and IIRC, he said Tiger's biggest statistical advantage against the field was distances 175-225 yards.

 

That was true for a time. Not sure if it still is.

[SMAKCruiser]

> @Obee said:

> > @"Frasier Crane" said:

> > > @MattyO1984 said:

> > > Great stat that I head recently is that he ranked 169th or thereby in distance covered off the tee. So essentially, 168 guys are on average closer to the hole than he is off the tee but he is still number 1 when it comes to strokes gained with irons. Not only is he better than the rest he is better than them from further away.

> >

> > I remember an interview with Sean Foley a few years ago, and IIRC, he said Tiger's biggest statistical advantage against the field was distances 175-225 yards.

>

> That was true for a time. Not sure if it still is.

 

He currently ranks 5th on tour in proximity to the hole from 175-200 and 3rd in proximity over 200 yards

[Obee]

> @SMAKCruiser said:

> > @Obee said:

> > > @"Frasier Crane" said:

> > > > @MattyO1984 said:

> > > > Great stat that I head recently is that he ranked 169th or thereby in distance covered off the tee. So essentially, 168 guys are on average closer to the hole than he is off the tee but he is still number 1 when it comes to strokes gained with irons. Not only is he better than the rest he is better than them from further away.

> > >

> > > I remember an interview with Sean Foley a few years ago, and IIRC, he said Tiger's biggest statistical advantage against the field was distances 175-225 yards.

> >

> > That was true for a time. Not sure if it still is.

>

> He currently ranks 5th on tour in proximity to the hole from 175-200 and 3rd in proximity over 200 yards

 

Well there you go. :-)

[Krt22]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @"Schley " said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Strokes gained. = witchcraft.

> > >

> > > Only stat that matters is wins.

> >

> > Strokes gained let's you know where you need to work on your game to get more wins. So you need a part / whole approach to build to victories, not just .... WIN because you want to.

>

> lol. I know what strokes gained is. I’ve used it myself. Although it’s useless as a non tour player since it doesn’t compare you to your peers

>

> But. I wonder how on earth jack and co ever managed to win without it ?

 

If you are using certain apps, you can compare your SG data vs peers or any other handicap range. I think broadies initial data set > @Obee said:

> > @SMAKCruiser said:

> > > @Obee said:

> > > > @"Frasier Crane" said:

> > > > > @MattyO1984 said:

> > > > > Great stat that I head recently is that he ranked 169th or thereby in distance covered off the tee. So essentially, 168 guys are on average closer to the hole than he is off the tee but he is still number 1 when it comes to strokes gained with irons. Not only is he better than the rest he is better than them from further away.

> > > >

> > > > I remember an interview with Sean Foley a few years ago, and IIRC, he said Tiger's biggest statistical advantage against the field was distances 175-225 yards.

> > >

> > > That was true for a time. Not sure if it still is.

> >

> > He currently ranks 5th on tour in proximity to the hole from 175-200 and 3rd in proximity over 200 yards

>

> Well there you go. :-)

 

And #1 in GIRs overall, #1 in GIRs/Fringe, #1 in GIRS from 175-200