This just blew my mind...........Correct Lie Angle?

[denkea]

The actual lie/loft spec is of little interest.

 

To you*

 

I used to have three 6 irons. The lie angles were 56º, 60º, and 64º. If I gave you each one to hit without knowing the lie angle and you chose one as best fit for you what difference would it make to know the actual lie except as a reference? That's all JCAG was saying.

 

How did you know the lie angles?

 

I ordered three forged 6 iron heads and bent them to specified lie angles. Shafted with the same shafts. All the same length.

[Awainer1]

The actual lie/loft spec is of little interest.

 

To you*

 

I used to have three 6 irons. The lie angles were 56º, 60º, and 64º. If I gave you each one to hit without knowing the lie angle and you chose one as best fit for you what difference would it make to know the actual lie except as a reference? That's all JCAG was saying.

 

How did you know the lie angles?

 

I ordered three forged 6 iron heads and bent them to specified lie angles. Shafted with the same shafts. All the same length.

 

After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle

[TLT_Dan]

What is the best way to fit for length?

 

Best question ive seen for a while....

We are humans, and not build the same way, we are all different, and with very different physical condition and ability to "move".

To get play length right for a SET of irons, we would need to build the longest and shortest club, but we hardly ever have the frames for that, we mostly use a #6 or #7 iron, and stop in the long and where we think it should be, but we never knows...

 

To really know, both the shortest and longest club has to be made as test clubs, and now we can make sets to what ever play length increments we want, so its really not a problem to "squeeze in" both a #3 and #4 iron for any player, simply by adjusting play lengths between clubs shorter than the classic 0.5" or 4/8"

 

Whats coming now on full speed is METRIC, and 12.7 mm is 0.5" inch and 3/8" is 9.5 mm, but we can build 8.0 or 7.0 if we like and adjust resistance progression to what ever we like....SW match, MOi matched or what ever in-between.

 

So Howard, how do you properly determine the shortest and longest club??? You threw it out there :)

 

The longest club is simply the longest club the player is able to handle, that can only be found with real life testing, and all iron sets ive made was included a Gap and dispersion tweak, so if i made a set 3-Pw and the player did not hit his #3 iron as good as he should, we either looked at possible solutions to make it work, or i removed that club from the order. I dont know any other ways to do this right, we have to try it off.

 

I'm more curious about fitting length for the shortest club I use for full swings. Say a GW or a PW. When is it better to lengthen over the standars 35.5" instead of bending more upright? I feel like I could stand in a more comfortable natural position with a longer club. (I have a bad back and bending puts pressure on my spine) I am 6' tall with a 36" WTF, so most fitters would tell me I am standard and 2* up. I am wondering how 1" longer and flatter would work?

 

Uprighting a club can not always fix a length issue. At your size a 35.5 is always going to be too short.

 

As length and lie are directly related adjusting either can be the fix in many cases - but a too short of club will still be too short. So by going slightly longer the lie remains reasonable and does not end up excessively up in an attempt to fix.

[Trap Junior]

From the PGA training they teach the way TXG did in the video. Using lie angle to correct ball flight. I have known about this method for years. I never liked this approach. Firstly when I set up in a correct posture I want to see the sole flat on the ground. I want the club to fit MY posture.

 

If I was given 2 degrees flat to correct a pull draw I would set up and have the heel off the ground and feel very uncomfortable looking down at that.

 

Then no doubt I would unconsciously change my posture and bend over more and lower my hands to make the sole flat to the ground.

 

Rightly or wrongly I have always fitted my own clubs with the lie board. If I hit it offline its me and not the club.

 

 

Also one thing I don't understand is that he says he gets pulls when he has high hands at impact. Higher hands tilts the face plane tilt or tilts the loft more to the right of target so raising the handle should result in more of a fade. Lowering the hands would point the loft more left and result in worse pull hooks.

[Cwebb]

From the PGA training they teach the way TXG did in the video. Using lie angle to correct ball flight. I have known about this method for years. I never liked this approach. Firstly when I set up in a correct posture I want to see the sole flat on the ground. I want the club to fit MY posture.

 

If I was given 2 degrees flat to correct a pull draw I would set up and have the heel off the ground and feel very uncomfortable looking down at that.

 

Then no doubt I would unconsciously change my posture and bend over more and lower my hands to make the sole flat to the ground.

 

Rightly or wrongly I have always fitted my own clubs with the lie board. If I hit it offline its me and not the club.

 

 

Also one thing I don't understand is that he says he gets pulls when he has high hands at impact. Higher hands tilts the face plane tilt or tilts the loft more to the right of target so raising the handle should result in more of a fade. Lowering the hands would point the loft more left and result in worse pull hooks.

 

The vast majority of players will have the toe up or well up at address, if they get fit on a lie board. So with that, many find more flat to the ground sole when not using the lie board for fitting.

 

High hands or "handle raising" through impact, leads to a higher rate of face closure for many players

[denkea]

" After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle?

 

With a club gauge similar to the Green Machine.

[bulls9999]

I had to tell a friend at my club about this video because as soon as I saw it, I thought of him.... he went for a fitting at the local (1 hr drive) 'advanced fitter' who uses Trackman outside and lie angle board and told him he needs to adjust lie angle 2-degrees. The friend asked 'are you sure' because he's never had a problem with his current settings and the fitter said 'the lie board doesn't lie'. The counfounding thing is I know this fitter and he always uses Trackman, so I don't know why he would change the lie angle (based on lie board) if the shot pattern was OK on Trackman.... needless to say, the player (~8 HC) kept pushing every iron shot and had to go back to have the lie angle re-adjusted (at his own expense). He should have gone back and pushed for the fitter to have them changed at his expense.

[firstbatch]

Just watched this new vid by TXG and Voshall from Mizzy demonstrating the new 3D optimizer which dynamically predicts best lie angle. What do you think about this Howard?

 

 

[Awainer1]

> @denkea said:

> " After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle?

>

>

>

> With a club gauge similar to the Green Machine.

 

 

So in theory you were measuring the lie angle which is no different from what I’m doing. And as has been stated on here your not measuring the actual lie angle but the angle of the grooves in relation to the hosel/shaft

 

[Awainer1]

> @firstbatch said:

> Just watched this new vid by TXG and Voshall from Mizzy demonstrating the new 3D optimizer which dynamically predicts best lie angle. What do you think about this Howard?

>

>

>

 

I kinda have a hard time believing that guy needs to be 2.5 degrees flat but who knows.

[firstbatch]

Matt says he plays irons 2.5 degrees flat so what’s hard to believe?

[denkea]

> @Awainer1 said:

> > @denkea said:

> > " After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle?

> >

> >

> >

> > With a club gauge similar to the Green Machine.

>

>

> So in theory you were measuring the lie angle which is no different from what I’m doing. And as has been stated on here your not measuring the actual lie angle **_but the angle of the grooves in relation to the hosel/shaft_**

>

 

Nope! Measuring they way it should be with the club soled with the center touching the plate.

But what difference does it make if the 3 cubs are each 4º different????

[Awainer1]

> @denkea said:

> > @Awainer1 said:

> > > @denkea said:

> > > " After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > With a club gauge similar to the Green Machine.

> >

> >

> > So in theory you were measuring the lie angle which is no different from what I’m doing. And as has been stated on here your not measuring the actual lie angle **_but the angle of the grooves in relation to the hosel/shaft_**

> >

>

> Nope! Measuring they way it should be with the club soled with the center touching the plate.

> But what difference does it make if the 3 cubs are each 4º different????

 

Oh you said a club gauge similar to green machine my fault. My point is that you are still measuring for a reference point.

[denkea]

> @Awainer1 said:

> > @denkea said:

> > > @Awainer1 said:

> > > > @denkea said:

> > > > " After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > With a club gauge similar to the Green Machine.

> > >

> > >

> > > So in theory you were measuring the lie angle which is no different from what I’m doing. And as has been stated on here your not measuring the actual lie angle **_but the angle of the grooves in relation to the hosel/shaft_**

> > >

> >

> > Nope! Measuring they way it should be with the club soled with the center touching the plate.

> > But what difference does it make if the 3 cubs are each 4º different????

>

> Oh you said a club gauge similar to green machine my fault. My point is that you are still measuring for a reference point.

 

Yeah. A club measuring gauge. Similar to this one.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/maltby-golf-club-gauge/p/gw1040/

 

But instead of using the score lines to level the club you determine the center point of contact with the bottom plate

 

My point that JCAG and I were making is that it doesn't make any difference what the actual lie angle is, except for a reference point, if the lie (whatever it is) is correct for you.

 

[Curious]

Love to read Howard's post and appreciate his knowledge. Anyway to TXG's defence they made another video about fitting a high

worth watching especially at the end where they bend the irons more upright which brought better results without rehauling the golfer's swing. The customer was very happy with the results and very pleased with the new fit:

Anyhow the following story about how Lee Trevino used to fit his clubs is quite an eye opener and all of us should take note

 

Aside from being an accomplished ball striker, Lee Trevino is also a quick study when it comes to equipment and its performance. Long before launch monitors were used for optimizing set specifications Lee used manpower to accomplish the same objectives. When it came time to adjust new set specifications for Trevino’s clubs it took two or more people to help him get the lofts and lies correct.

 

Jeff Sheets Golf,Club Design,Club Development,Perfect Fit,Lee Trevino https://www.jeffsheetsgolf.com/tales-from-the-tour

_**Lee would hit balls with one person on the tee box and the other down range. Starting with his wedges he would begin hitting full shots. The person down range would radio back the yardage and dispersion (i.e., “104 yards, 1.5 yards left of center”). Every shot was recorded in the same manner that we capture launch monitor results today.

As Lee would move onto the next club and learn its yardage he would have one of us adjust the loft (and lie if necessary) in order to achieve the desired distance. We would eventually make it through the entire set, altering the specs as we moved from his short irons to long irons. The end result was precise yardages between each iron in the set (even with obscure lofts and lies). It was common to find only a couple of degrees of loft between some clubs to achieve the distance Lee was looking for. To the uneducated, Lee’s specs looked like a mess on paper, but the performance results were clear to see

 

 

 

 

[Curious]

Need to edit the previous post but don't know how. Wrong link for the high handicaper iron fitting. Here is the right one:

[Awainer1]

> @denkea said:

> > @Awainer1 said:

> > > @denkea said:

> > > > @Awainer1 said:

> > > > > @denkea said:

> > > > > " After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > With a club gauge similar to the Green Machine.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > So in theory you were measuring the lie angle which is no different from what I’m doing. And as has been stated on here your not measuring the actual lie angle **_but the angle of the grooves in relation to the hosel/shaft_**

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nope! Measuring they way it should be with the club soled with the center touching the plate.

> > > But what difference does it make if the 3 cubs are each 4º different????

> >

> > Oh you said a club gauge similar to green machine my fault. My point is that you are still measuring for a reference point.

>

> Yeah. A club measuring gauge. Similar to this one.

>

> https://www.golfworks.com/maltby-golf-club-gauge/p/gw1040/

>

> But instead of using the score lines to level the club you determine the center point of contact with the bottom plate

>

> My point that JCAG and I were making is that it doesn't make any difference what the actual lie angle is, except for a reference point, if the lie (whatever it is) is correct for you.

>

 

> @denkea said:

> > @Awainer1 said:

> > > @denkea said:

> > > > @Awainer1 said:

> > > > > @denkea said:

> > > > > " After you bent them how did you measure the lie angle?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > With a club gauge similar to the Green Machine.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > So in theory you were measuring the lie angle which is no different from what I’m doing. And as has been stated on here your not measuring the actual lie angle **_but the angle of the grooves in relation to the hosel/shaft_**

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nope! Measuring they way it should be with the club soled with the center touching the plate.

> > > But what difference does it make if the 3 cubs are each 4º different????

> >

> > Oh you said a club gauge similar to green machine my fault. My point is that you are still measuring for a reference point.

>

> Yeah. A club measuring gauge. Similar to this one.

>

> https://www.golfworks.com/maltby-golf-club-gauge/p/gw1040/

>

> But instead of using the score lines to level the club you determine the center point of contact with the bottom plate

>

> My point that JCAG and I were making is that it doesn't make any difference what the actual lie angle is, except for a reference point, if the lie (whatever it is) is correct for you.

>

 

It’s actually not the contact point you are looking for I’ve found out because it’s affected by the bounce. It’s where the bottom apex of the leading edge would touch the base if there were no bounce.

 

[RogerinNewZealand]

When this thread started i had just bought on line some mp63's at a great price.Looks like i got my lucky purchase Lie Angles are Perfect! Swing isn't but thats ok.So yes work on what ya got Today.And in true wrx style my Mizunos were reshafted twice in 7 days to get me very happy eg d4 average. PS a pw shot to 1 foot from the flag says im good to go.

[go-rebels]

So I’m at my local Golf Galaxy getting fit for a 6-AW set of new TM P790 irons and have gravitated to the recoil shafts in R-flex. I’m 60 yr old, play to a 10 handicap, hit the driver 200yds and a 7-iron 130yds. I currently play Ping “G” irons with Project-X 5.0 shafts. I generally hit a soft fade and keep the ball in the fairway. My short game is better than average playing four Vokey wedges.

So the club fitter sees me hitting balls into a simulator with my usual consistent fade; I’m +/- 5 yards from the centerline on a dozen shots. He sets me up with a plastic lie board and begins taping the soles of my demo 7-iron. I’m hitting near the toe on the sole and by the time I’m done switching heads he’s settled that I need 3 degrees upright. I thank him for his time and leave.

I’ve played standard length and lie clubs for forty years.

Yesterday I went to the range with my current black dot Ping “G” 7-iron and a blue dry erase marker. I recently sand blasted the faces on all my irons and was hoping I could see the impact mark w/o using tape.

Here’s my first three shots starting cold:

Here’s my last three:

It looks to me that my lie is about right. Would a TM P790 with R-flex Recoil graphite shaft behave so differently compared to my steel shafted Ping?

[Howard_Jones]

The first photo indicated 1* more upright - second last about 0.5* upright, non of them is Neutral.

Its explained before in this tread why the Lie board method misleads us in 8 of 9 cases, so the lie board method cant be trusted at all.

Just look at the "block" to the left. ALL 9 is like they should be, but only 1 of them would be judged to be good on a lie board the way most users think it shall be used, but THIS MAP is needed to judge sole impact marks, but it want help us much since we dont have control of club path and face angle who moves the sole impact mark around on the sole. Thats why the ball marker method is way better.

Those cases upright is suggested from the lie board, its most likely a face angle Closed to path that moved impact toe side, so we CANT make this right using a lie board

[Stehal]

This stuff is very enlightening. Last fall, I noticed wear patterns showing strikes out to the toe on all my irons and I would miss a little short right all the time. I had been working on my in to out path but still the same. I talked to the pro shop and asked if my lie angles could be wrong. They set up a time to test and we went to the range with my clubs and they used a line on the ball that left perfect lines on my club faces. I figured my lie angle could be the culprit and it was in my head. The lines were perfectly vertical so I asked if I was hitting it off centre and the pro agreed. A couple months go by and I set up some lessons, turns out I had a decent path but was closing face too fast and hitting toward toe. After working on better rotation etc, face tape now shows I am hitting in the centre and I picked up 10-15 yds per club. Plus I miss right infrequently and actually can hold the face open a little if I want it to do that. I have also booked a fitting for next week because I am now wondering if I have the wrong shafts as I hit the ball so high and it just about stops dead with every shot. It is a bit cool and damp here in Western Canada but my ball seems to be a lot higher than other guys I play with and I have had a few comments about my shots being very high

[go-rebels]

Thx Howard. I picked up a nice used set of 2019 P790 irons with the regular flex recoil shafts and will do side by side tests again in about one week.

[zeebee24]

@Howard_Jones hoping you can help me analyze some TrackMan numbers as it relates to Lie Angle. If the spin axis tilt is larger than the Face to Path X 3, does that mean the club is too flat. For example, my face to path is (6x3=18) and the spin axis is 14. Would this mean I need to go upright by about one degree?

[Howard_Jones]

Yes but check using the ball marker method, but you also have a FA issue

Path +6 (in to out) , FA -3 (closed) = spin axis -18 (hook)

[jons1]

I understand the point in that video, but using a 4 degree flatter lie angle to help cover up a 50 yard hook, with a 6 iron no less, seems equally ridiculous. I understand as a fitter, you're trying to give people the best possible game, but at some point you need to learn how to swing the club. Over time you might be doing more harm that good to the person.

[zeebee24]

@Howard_Jones will do, thanks! In terms of numbers, do you generally want (face to path x 3) to equal the spin axis? And when it's off, adjust lie angle accordingly?

[Howard_Jones]

Thats how i took advantage of Trackman and their ball flight laws for lie angles, but its easier to use the ball marker test

[maxpeck]

In the cases were around 0,5 degrees upright is best, what do you suggest. Remaining as is, or going 1 degree upright then? Seems most only offer the service to bend to full degrees.

[Howard_Jones]

I see no reason to pay for a service that changes one error to another, so if 0.5* change is right, i would not bend it 1*, but when bending clubs, its not like we change 1* at the time, so i dont get it if they want try to change it 0.5*, but 0.5* is not a huge error either, most can live with that.

[maxpeck]

Ok, thanks for the advice.