Filling a gap at the top of my bag

arbeck · March 21, 2019

I have a peak driver swing speed of about 97MPH (on Trackman). My average drive carries about 220, with my best drives in the mid 230's. After my driver I currently go 16.5* 4w, 21* 7w, 24* 5i. I swing my 5i around 80MPH, and I treat it like a 170-175 carry club, though I can sometimes catch a bit of a flier that will go 180. My average 7w off the deck is 195 carry. On perfect lies or off a tee, I've seen it go 205-210 on a launch monitor. I don't feel like I hit my 4w very well at all. When well struck, it's going to be around a 210 carry club. I don't find it very useful off the tee (if I need to lay back I'd rather hit the 7w or choke down on the driver). It really only gets pulled when I'm more than 200 yards from the front of the green, and there isn't a lot of trouble around where a mishit will kill me. I think the length of the 4w is what leads to the strike issues. It plays 42.5" while my 7w plays 41.5".

As you can see, there's a fairly large gap between my 5i and 7w. Since I only carry 13 clubs, I was considering getting a hybrid or utility iron of some sort (not sure I really have the swing speed for the iron) in the 22-23* range that is hopefully more like a 185 club. The only downside that I see is that it might really overlap too much with the 7w. So, my next thought was to move my fairway into something more like a 5w loft (18-19*) ditch both of my current fairways, and go with a 5w - Hybrid - 5i setup. Most of the stock 5w's are quite a bit longer than the 41.5" that I play my 7w at, so I'd probably be wanting the 5w to have a much shorter shaft.

I'm leaning towards doing a full hybrid/fairway fitting at Club Champion and just purchasing the hybrid to start, then playing the season with 14 clubs and seeing what the gaps look like on the course before going any further. I was curious about what others would do in this situation though.

Shifty76 · March 22, 2019

9 wood sounds like it'd do the trick, especially since it seems like you like your 7W.

Who cares what people think about bagging one of them - if it helps you shoot lower then do it.

Titleist_PT23 · March 22, 2019

How far do you hit your 6 iron? If the gap between your 5 iron and 6 iron isn't very large / is compressing vs the rest of your irons, another option would be to get a 24*-25* hybrid as a 5 iron replacement.

I have about a 95 mph driver swing speed and go (carry distance on reasonably well struck shots): driver - 220, 5 wood (19*) - 200, 22* hybrid - 190, 25* 5 iron - 180. I don't think I could hit a 16.5* fairway that much better on average. Also, the 25* 5 iron is already borderline and I definitely can't hit a lower lofted iron. Really, I think it just requires a bit more swing speed to get these clubs up in the air / carrying well.

I think figuring out if you are hitting the 5 iron efficiently enough is the first question to answer. This will dictate whether to add a hybrid between the 5 iron / 7 wood (I don't know if you will see much of a yardage gap between 7 wood and 22*-23* hybrid), replace the 5 iron, or switch up the fairways.

bluedot · March 22, 2019

Both of your thoughts on how to approach this gap will work; you shouldn't have any trouble at all finding a club that will give you 180-185 carry and be relatively consistent. A 4 hybrid is a likely candidate, which you've already figured out.

BUT it sounds to me like you really have TWO spots to play with. You're only carrying 13 clubs, and if you like the 7W as a layup club off the tee and don't hit the 16.5 especially well off the ground, that's largely a wasted spot, right? Despite what you read on this site, I don't think there are many amateurs, even those with single digit indexes, that hit a 16.5 club off the ground with consistent results; I see that sort of club used most often in situations where there is no real penalty for a mishit or for being significantly off-line.

So maybe you do a fitting in which you take the two clubs that you seem to really like, the 5i and the 7W, and just work off of them. You already have the fairway that you want for layup tee shots, so you are just looking for two things; a gap club between those two clubs, and a second club that you can hit 10-15 yards farther off the deck than the 7W WITH CONSISTENCY. That could be a 5W, or it could be a 17* or 19* hybrid, but the trick in this sort of thing, IMO, is to not worry about what the club says on the bottom, only what it does.

I just (sort of) did the same thing at that end of my bag. I spent the winter trying to get better at hitting a 16.5 club off the ground, and succeeding in proving to myself that I just couldn't do it, which was fine. So I did a fitting in which we added a 17* hybrid, removed the 19* hybrid and the 16.5 fairway, and added a 19* fairway because I still wanted a fairway, rather than a hybrid, to hit off the tee on layups. That's an unusual setup; second longest club in the bag (by yardage) is a hybrid, with a fairway as the gap club in between that and the next hybrid at 23*, but I think it will work a lot better for me.

Titleist_PT23 · March 22, 2019

bluedot said:

Despite what you read on this site, I don't think there are many amateurs, even those with single digit indexes, that hit a 16.5 club off the ground with consistent results; I see that sort of club used most often in situations where there is no real penalty for a mishit or for being significantly off-line.
I just (sort of) did the same thing at that end of my bag. I spent the winter trying to get better at hitting a 16.5 club off the ground, and succeeding in proving to myself that I just couldn't do it, which was fine. So I did a fitting in which we added a 17* hybrid,

I've been thinking about going to the 16.5* and 21* TS2 fairways (and 917 F2s before that). Though has always been the 16.5* will give me a bit more off the tee on non-driver holes and more yardage on the par 5 second shot where you are free to take a whack at it. However, I don't have a lot of non-driver holes, and I've always feared that even standing in the middle of the fairway the 16.5* is going to produce a horrific shot more frequently than I'd like to admit. Hence, I haven't moved off the 18*-19* fairway (still thinking about the Ping G400 17.5* 5 wood, which I've been able to hit reasonably well though).

How far do you hit the 17* hybrid? I've always wondered whether I have enough speed to keep this type of club in the air long enough.

arbeck · March 22, 2019

agolf1 said:

How far do you hit your 6 iron? If the gap between your 5 iron and 6 iron isn't very large / is compressing vs the rest of your irons, another option would be to get a 24*-25* hybrid as a 5 iron replacement.
I think figuring out if you are hitting the 5 iron efficiently enough is the first question to answer. This will dictate whether to add a hybrid between the 5 iron / 7 wood (I don't know if you will see much of a yardage gap between 7 wood and 22*-23* hybrid), replace the 5 iron, or switch up the fairways.

My 6i goes about carries about 160 on average with the the average on good strikes being more like 165. My 7i carries about 150 on average with the average on good strikes being more like 155. My gaping isn't too much of an issue through out my irons. My 5i still has a good peak height and descent angle and I get plenty of spin. Of course like most 14 handicaps as the club gets longer, I mishit them more often, so the average of my actual distances compresses some. But for good strikes I think my iron gaping is pretty good.

Titleist_PT23 · March 22, 2019

arbeck said:

agolf1 said:

How far do you hit your 6 iron? If the gap between your 5 iron and 6 iron isn't very large / is compressing vs the rest of your irons, another option would be to get a 24*-25* hybrid as a 5 iron replacement.
I think figuring out if you are hitting the 5 iron efficiently enough is the first question to answer. This will dictate whether to add a hybrid between the 5 iron / 7 wood (I don't know if you will see much of a yardage gap between 7 wood and 22*-23* hybrid), replace the 5 iron, or switch up the fairways.

My 6i goes about carries about 160 on average with the the average on good strikes being more like 165. My 7i carries about 150 on average with the average on good strikes being more like 155. My gaping isn't too much of an issue through out my irons. My 5i still has a good peak height and descent angle and I get plenty of spin. Of course like most 14 handicaps as the club gets longer, I mishit them more often, so the average of my actual distances compresses some. But for good strikes I think my iron gaping is pretty good.

Gotcha, it seems fine. I've had difficulties with my 5 iron before and have tried a 25* hybrid.

I'm not sure whether fitting a hybrid between the 7 wood / 5 iron or changing the fairways is best. I guess since the 7 wood works well I'd probably just try to fit something between the two.

bluedot · March 22, 2019

agolf1 said:

bluedot said:

Despite what you read on this site, I don't think there are many amateurs, even those with single digit indexes, that hit a 16.5 club off the ground with consistent results; I see that sort of club used most often in situations where there is no real penalty for a mishit or for being significantly off-line.
I just (sort of) did the same thing at that end of my bag. I spent the winter trying to get better at hitting a 16.5 club off the ground, and succeeding in proving to myself that I just couldn't do it, which was fine. So I did a fitting in which we added a 17* hybrid,

I've been thinking about going to the 16.5* and 21* TS2 fairways (and 917 F2s before that). Though has always been the 16.5* will give me a bit more off the tee on non-driver holes and more yardage on the par 5 second shot where you are free to take a whack at it. However, I don't have a lot of non-driver holes, and I've always feared that even standing in the middle of the fairway the 16.5* is going to produce a horrific shot more frequently than I'd like to admit. Hence, I haven't moved off the 18*-19* fairway (still thinking about the Ping G400 17.5* 5 wood, which I've been able to hit reasonably well though).

How far do you hit the 17* hybrid? I've always wondered whether I have enough speed to keep this type of club in the air long enough.

The 17* hybrid typically gives me about 195 overall distance, which is just a few yards behind my very best strikes with a 3W, even one with higher loft like 16.5. But the difference is for sure the quality of the misses. My bad shots with a hybrid aren't pretty, but they aren't terrible; my bad shots with a 3W are just awful. And "just awful" builds scar tissue pretty quickly, I find. The obvious advantages of a 17* hybrid vs a 16* or 16.5* FW are a bit more loft on a much more compact head, and a shorter shaft; those are good things for consistency. And consistency is what it's about; it doesn't matter how far my best strikes could move a 3W if those only occur during full moons or something like that.

There's no way to know whether or not you have enough swing speed to hit a 17* hybrid high enough to make you happy, but if you are even asking that question, it probably means that less loft and a longer shaft (aka a 3W) just won't work. For me, I was just looking for a club that I could use to move the ball down the fairway on holes I can't reach in two anymore, which means almost all par 5's and even some par 4's these days. Then the idea the fitter and I had with getting a lofted FW in between the 17* and 23* hybrids was to have a club that was dual purpose; a good option for layup tee shots, AND a club that I could hit high enough with reasonable consistency to hold the green on longer approach shots when I can reach.

The trick, at least for ME, was to get away from the idea that the second longest club in my bag should be a FW, and then to work toward specific distances and the shots I actually play instead of some traditional setup ideal.

Titleist_PT23 · March 22, 2019

bluedot said:

There's no way to know whether or not you have enough swing speed to hit a 17* hybrid high enough to make you happy, but if you are even asking that question, it probably means that less loft and a longer shaft (aka a 3W) just won't work. For me, I was just looking for a club that I could use to move the ball down the fairway on holes I can't reach in two anymore, which means almost all par 5's and even some par 4's these days. Then the idea the fitter and I had with getting a lofted FW in between the 17* and 23* hybrids was to have a club that was dual purpose; a good option for layup tee shots, AND a club that I could hit high enough with reasonable consistency to hold the green on longer approach shots when I can reach.

I've always felt like it was easier to hit a comparably lofted FW up in the air higher. I have my 19* at 41.25 inches, so shorter than standard but still a bit longer than most 19* hybrids. I would probably play the 16.5*-17.5* fairway at 42-42.5 inches, but I still think this is going to be a questionable club below 17.5* (and as you note, not worth it if only your best shots are playable).

For the 17* hybrid, I just worry that the head is less forgiving / harder to get up in the air, which negates the shorter shaft. Part of me wants to find a FW-FW or hybrid-hybrid combo that works (simplify how the clubs look/feel and swing), but I'm not sure I can get something that works as well as one of each.

ChipNRun · March 23, 2019

@arbeck,

I understand your search for a "final club at the top." After a time of indecision, I have settled into 4W + 7W for seven seasons. My TE XRails are on standby if I have consistency problems with the Alpha 815s.

Before you bring out the power tools or buy new clubs, consider a couple of things:

* What trouble do you have with the 4W? Is it not launching well? Is it inconsistent? What is the swingweight compared to your other clubs (ExE8 offers different sole weights you can buy). Which shaft does it have the Bassara 45 (light!) or the Fuji Exotics Pro 57, 62, 72, 77 family? If you have a heavier shaft, is it hard to handle. Do you have launch monitor numbers on the 4W.

* If you only hit the 4W a couple of times a round, maybe you just aren't familiar with it _on the course._ For a test, move up a set of tee boxes and hit the 4W off the tee on all long holes; try some with wooden tees and some off the teebox turf. Probably off the deck from fairway a couple of time. See what patterns you see. Along the way, choke up a half inch on the shaft and see if that helps with control. (A trim might fix things).

As you suggested, you might play a 5W as a single FW - seems like you get overlap between 4W and 7W. A local pro who carries his driver about 285 yds. plays a 5W with a 4W-length shaft. He said he only loses about 20 yds. over a 3W, and it's a lot more reliable. For me, a Ping online fitting once recommended I carry the 5W as a solo FW.

With a 5W, you might find a 3H + 4H fill things out. / Or a 4W + 7W + 4H might work if you cure your 4W ills.