I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[Imp]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @SoCalTitleist said:

> > > @Timbo929 said:

> > > Awkward moment for whoever's closest to the flag... To pull or not to pull?

> >

> > Exactly this! Half the guys still want it in , then when you play with strangers and not familiar if they want it in or out .

>

> It's a nightmare. I find it takes about 7 seconds when the group reaches the first green for someone to ask if we're flagsticks in today and reach an agreement.

Come one Sui, you know better. Used to be known as waiving a rule of golf? Now covered in 2019 Rule 1.3.b.(1):

> If two or more players deliberately agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement).

While I get what you're trying to do/suggest, it is against the RoG to come to agreement as to pre-determine the status of the flag on each hole before, and while, playing. Just like saying "all good within 8 feet".

[SNIPERBBB]

What is being waived about the flagstick being left in? No rule is being broken.

[HitEmTrue]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> What is being waived about the flagstick being left in? No rule is being broken.

 

If the agreement prevents a player from playing with the flagstick in (or out) of the hole, I think it would be a problem.

[toc]

Golfers with poor finger dexterity damaging holes? We are running out of things to discuss, people.

[Z1ggy16]

Scenario 1 - Everybody leaves it in. Saves you probably.... 5-10 seconds per hole from somebody not having to stay back to put flag back in.

 

Scenario 2 - Mixed bag. Some guys want it in, some out. Probably wastes 10-20s per hole due to having a person walk over to pull the pin for somebody and put back in after.

 

Scenario 3 - All pull. No gain or loss.

 

So on the whole this whole "issue" about rounds taking longer on average, assuming each scenario happens equally the same is a few minutes either way, i.e. a non issue. So far in all my rounds this year, we agree on the tee box what we are doing. Most of the time people will want to just be agreeable and the group will all do the same. Of my 2 rounds so far, the stick has been left in both times by all.

[Roadking2003]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> Scenario 1 - Everybody leaves it in. Saves you probably.... 5-10 seconds per hole from somebody not having to stay back to put flag back in.

>

> Scenario 2 - Mixed bag. Some guys want it in, some out. Probably wastes 10-20s per hole due to having a person walk over to pull the pin for somebody and put back in after.

>

> Scenario 3 - All pull. No gain or loss.

>

> So on the whole this whole "issue" about rounds taking longer on average, assuming each scenario happens equally the same is a few minutes either way, i.e. a non issue. So far in all my rounds this year, we agree on the tee box what we are doing. Most of the time people will want to just be agreeable and the group will all do the same. Of my 2 rounds so far, the stick has been left in both times by all.

 

I've played about 35 rounds this year with a group of about 15 golfers using the new rule. Here is my observation;

 

Scenario 1: Saves at least 30 - 60 seconds per hole in three areas.

a. While standing in the fairway, I can shoot the distance while golfers on the green are putting, so I'm ready to hit as soon as they walk off the green.

b. On longer putts, I don't have to ask somebody to remove the flag or tend the flag and wait for them to get to the flag.

c. After putting, we all just walk off the green. Nobody has to pick up the flag and put it in the hole.

 

Scenario 2: No gain or loss. Everybody wants the flag in on longer putts just like they have wanted it tended for years and nobody puts the flag back in once it's taken out.

Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2.

[KevCarter]

> @Imp said:

> While I get what you're trying to do/suggest, it is against the RoG to come to agreement as to pre-determine the status of the flag on each hole before, and while, playing. Just like saying "all good within 8 feet".

 

I disagree, but at this point, nothing would surprise me. :smile:

[nsxguy]

> @Imp said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @SoCalTitleist said:

> > > > @Timbo929 said:

> > > > Awkward moment for whoever's closest to the flag... To pull or not to pull?

> > >

> > > Exactly this! Half the guys still want it in , then when you play with strangers and not familiar if they want it in or out .

> >

> > It's a nightmare. I find it takes about 7 seconds when the group reaches the first green for someone to ask if we're flagsticks in today and reach an agreement.

> Come one Sui, you know better. Used to be known as waiving a rule of golf? Now covered in 2019 Rule 1.3.b.(1):

> > If two or more players deliberately agree to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies and any of those players have started the round, they are disqualified (even if they have not yet acted on the agreement).

> While I get what you're trying to do/suggest, it is against the RoG to come to agreement as to pre-determine the status of the flag on each hole before, and while, playing. Just like saying "all good within 8 feet".

 

Come on Imp, you (should) know better.

 

a) Sui was being sarcastic ("It's a nightmare")

 

and

 

2) was REALLY suggesting the players understand who wants to do what with the flagstick.

 

You're welcome. [tips cap]

 

[sui generis]

No breach when players agree to abide by a Rule. ;)

[nsxguy]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > Scenario 1 - Everybody leaves it in. Saves you probably.... 5-10 seconds per hole from somebody not having to stay back to put flag back in.

> >

> > Scenario 2 - Mixed bag. Some guys want it in, some out. Probably wastes 10-20s per hole due to having a person walk over to pull the pin for somebody and put back in after.

> >

> > Scenario 3 - All pull. No gain or loss.

> >

> > So on the whole this whole "issue" about rounds taking longer on average, assuming each scenario happens equally the same is a few minutes either way, i.e. a non issue. So far in all my rounds this year, we agree on the tee box what we are doing. Most of the time people will want to just be agreeable and the group will all do the same. Of my 2 rounds so far, the stick has been left in both times by all.

>

> I've played about 35 rounds this year with a group of about 15 golfers using the new rule. Here is my observation;

>

> Scenario 1: Saves at least 30 - 60 seconds per hole in three areas.

> a. While standing in the fairway, I can shoot the distance while golfers on the green are putting, so I'm ready to hit as soon as they walk off the green.

> b. On longer putts, I don't have to ask somebody to remove the flag or tend the flag and wait for them to get to the flag.

> c. After putting, we all just walk off the green. Nobody has to pick up the flag and put it in the hole.

>

> Scenario 2: No gain or loss. Everybody wants the flag in on longer putts just like they have wanted it tended for years and nobody puts the flag back in once it's taken out.

> Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2.

 

Totally agree.

 

I've played about the same number of rounds this year and I believe it saves about 10 minutes per round on average.

[Z1ggy16]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > Scenario 1 - Everybody leaves it in. Saves you probably.... 5-10 seconds per hole from somebody not having to stay back to put flag back in.

> >

> > Scenario 2 - Mixed bag. Some guys want it in, some out. Probably wastes 10-20s per hole due to having a person walk over to pull the pin for somebody and put back in after.

> >

> > Scenario 3 - All pull. No gain or loss.

> >

> > So on the whole this whole "issue" about rounds taking longer on average, assuming each scenario happens equally the same is a few minutes either way, i.e. a non issue. So far in all my rounds this year, we agree on the tee box what we are doing. Most of the time people will want to just be agreeable and the group will all do the same. Of my 2 rounds so far, the stick has been left in both times by all.

>

> I've played about 35 rounds this year with a group of about 15 golfers using the new rule. Here is my observation;

>

> Scenario 1: Saves at least 30 - 60 seconds per hole in three areas.

> a. While standing in the fairway, I can shoot the distance while golfers on the green are putting, so I'm ready to hit as soon as they walk off the green.

> b. On longer putts, I don't have to ask somebody to remove the flag or tend the flag and wait for them to get to the flag.

> c. After putting, we all just walk off the green. Nobody has to pick up the flag and put it in the hole.

>

> Scenario 2: No gain or loss. Everybody wants the flag in on longer putts just like they have wanted it tended for years and nobody puts the flag back in once it's taken out.

> Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2.

 

Either way, 10 minutes on 3.5-4 hours isn't really much. Even if people pull the flag, I use GPS to get my distances to front mid and back, so as long as the course either has colored flags or the score card tells you the position, having the pin in for me personally doesn't make a difference either way, I'm ready to go with my shot distance as soon as the green is clear.

 

I guess if you're the player who's already gotten 35 rounds in by April 1, then saving 10 minutes a round will add up over the course of a year. To me, I never really felt like this pin topic was about saving time really. Prior to 2019 (in my rounds at least), usually the guy who was away was lining up his putt while one of the closer guys would pull. Then, last guy in puts the flag back in while the others are walking away... It's more about how the pin being there affects how I put rather than a couple minutes I get back.

[Golfnuck]

> @SoCalTitleist said:

> > @Timbo929 said:

> > Awkward moment for whoever's closest to the flag... To pull or not to pull?

>

> Exactly this! Half the guys still want it in , then when you play with strangers and not familiar if they want it in or out .

Agreed.

What I have found after playing almost 20 rounds so far with a variety of different groups is that in general the higher handicap players are good with leaving the flag in. The lower handicap players want the flag out.

 

 

[Roadking2003]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> I guess if you're the player who's already gotten 35 rounds in by April 1, then saving 10 minutes a round will add up over the course of a year. To me, I never really felt like this pin topic was about saving time really. Prior to 2019 (in my rounds at least), usually the guy who was away was lining up his putt while one of the closer guys would pull. Then, last guy in puts the flag back in while the others are walking away... It's more about how the pin being there affects how I put rather than a couple minutes I get back.

I agree. It's not about saving time. For me, it's a better aiming point. Saving time is just a bonus.

 

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @"sui generis" said:

> No breach when players agree to abide by a Rule. ;)

 

Before round, we agree to ALWAYS leave in the pin. Sixth hole, wind starts a blowing, and flag is leaning toward me. I go to pull it, you remind me that we said we won't. So I don't. No problem?

 

Before the round, we agree to ALWAYS take BOL relief for any ball in a red penalty area. After all, BOL relief is abiding by the rule.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

I think anyone that proposes such an arrangement gets an A for gamesmanship and anyone who agrees a D for being dunces.

[HitEmTrue]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> I think anyone that proposes such an arrangement gets an A for gamesmanship and anyone who agrees a D for being dunces.

 

I'm merely trying to find out what kind of "agreement" Sui is proposing. There are some that have talked about making an agreement that gets followed for the entire round, which would be just as inappropriate as agreeing that all putts within the leather will be conceded during the match.

 

[bladehunter]

Player 2 different rounds this weekend. One a dogfight with 1 pro and 2 current local small college players and myself in a group and one round with 2 pros and a former D1 player and myself. Both played very much by the rules and very competitive. We had a mix both days of in or outers. And I was by far not the most zealous opinion demonstrated. One group had a pro who insisted the out was best because of the science of a mathematician who had studied it in the 90s ( I didn’t know the guy or catch the name ) but the jist was “ it’s taking up space in the hole and therefore in the way “. And another pro who is a deshambeau disciple and insists on in even for 2-3 ft. Was a cluster F the whole round. In and out. More than once the D1 college player yanked it for a 2 footer and dropped the pin on the green to tap in then picked it back up and jammed it back in the hole. And I myself damaged 2 cups getting the ball out past the pin when I chipped in once and made a putt from the fringe. Not severe damage mind you. But enough that I had to pull the pin and with my finger , repair it. After that I pulled it every time just to avoid that. I have big hands and long fingers and find it pretty hard to reach out length of my arm to pull the ball with 2 fingers all the while trying not to step on someone’s line.

 

Agree with the OP. It only saves time if there’s a consensus . As goodness as my witness I’ve not played in a group with a consensus yet. And I’ve not once been that single oddball either.

[Sawgrass]

I suspect the "agreement" Sui is discussing is best described as, "Unless we say otherwise, let's always leave the flagstick in."

 

And not, "We are agreeing to never take the flagstick out" which would be a problem.

[bladehunter]

> @Sawgrass said:

> I suspect the "agreement" Sui is discussing is best described as, "Unless we say otherwise, let's always leave the flagstick in."

>

> And not, "We are agreeing to never take the flagstick out" which would be a problem.

 

Hmmm. I don’t really read his statements that way sawgrass. I think he means a pretty hard agreement. Otherwise why even mention it ? Wouldn’t it be a “ you want it in or out “ question if no pre round understanding ? And if an understanding then it’s that a pretty hard agreement ? Not seeing much space for grey there.

 

 

I read that same as past opinions. A passive aggressive stance saying “ if you want it out take it out yourself , and nobody better want to out “ kind of thing. I can’t get my head around any other reason to mention it before getting to the first green. It’s a putt by putt decision for most. Or at least that Stance is allowed by the rules. To try to pressure otherwise is bending the rule at best.

 

[Sawgrass]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > I suspect the "agreement" Sui is discussing is best described as, "Unless we say otherwise, let's always leave the flagstick in."

> >

> > And not, "We are agreeing to never take the flagstick out" which would be a problem.

>

> Hmmm. I don’t really read his statements that way sawgrass. I think he means a pretty hard agreement. Otherwise why even mention it ? Wouldn’t it be a “ you want it in or out “ question if no pre round understanding ? And if an understanding then it’s that a pretty hard agreement ? Not seeing much space for grey there.

>

>

> I read that same as past opinions. A passive aggressive stance saying “ if yo I want it out take it out yourself , and nobody better want to out “ kind of thing. I can’t get my head around any other reason to mention it before getting to the first green.

>

As to what he truly meant, I can't say for sure other than you and I presume he meant something different than the other does.

 

Here's what he said: "I find it takes about 7 seconds when the group reaches the first green for someone to ask if we're flagsticks in today and reach an agreement."

 

I thought he was commenting on his impression that it's really not all that hard to work out what to do with the flagstick.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Mr. Generis will explain all.

 

By the way, I'm liking the option to leave the flagstick in more and more as I get some miles under my belt.

[bladehunter]

Yea. I’m growing mostly indifferent to in or out. The exception being removing the ball from the hole. My hand doesn’t fit. Only finger tips. Not too bad if you can stand over the hole. But it’s a struggle of your reaching way out because of people’s lines for putts yet to come.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @bladehunter said:

> Yea. I’m growing mostly indifferent to in or out. The exception being removing the ball from the hole. My hand doesn’t fit. Only finger tips. Not too bad if you can stand over the hole. But it’s a struggle of your reaching way out because of people’s lines for putts yet to come.

 

I was getting that way early in the year, but then missed a 30 - 35 footer right to left uphill putt that would have gone maybe 3 feet by. It was turning into the hole and hit the pin slightly right of center and bounced out. Pins in South TX are steel and very stiff because the wind blows here. While anecdotal, the pin will be out for me on anything I can reasonably make. Just don't want to take a chance.

[bladehunter]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Yea. I’m growing mostly indifferent to in or out. The exception being removing the ball from the hole. My hand doesn’t fit. Only finger tips. Not too bad if you can stand over the hole. But it’s a struggle of your reaching way out because of people’s lines for putts yet to come.

>

> I was getting that way early in the year, but then missed a 30 - 35 footer right to left uphill putt that would have gone maybe 3 feet by. It was turning into the hole and hit the pin slightly right of center and bounced out. Pins in South TX are steel and very stiff because the wind blows here. While anecdotal, the pin will be out for me on anything I can reasonably make. Just don't want to take a chance.

 

 

Yep. If asked I prefer it out. But. I can make due on all but the 6 footers and in with it in. Close up I hate it in. The rule could change back and I’d cheer just to do away With the option and subsequent discussion about it.

 

[Imp]

edit: double post

[Imp]

> @"sui generis" said:

> No breach when players agree to abide by a Rule. ;)

I think the term used in the rules is "agree to ignore any rule" now. Then again, you're not ignoring "A" rule, but "part of a" rule. Since the rules don't give a penalty for ignoring part of a rule, is it a rule at all?

> Yea. I’m growing mostly indifferent to in or out. The exception being removing the ball from the hole. My hand doesn’t fit. Only finger tips. Not too bad if you can stand over the hole. But it’s a struggle of your reaching way out because of people’s lines for putts yet to come.

 

I've found it much easier if I put my hand in opposite side of the ball/stick and get the ball with my fingers from the opposite side. #bighandpeopleproblems

[bladehunter]

Thanks. I’ll try that ^

[HitEmTrue]

 

 

> @Imp said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > No breach when players agree to abide by a Rule. ;)

> I think the term used in the rules is "agree to ignore any rule" now. Then again, you're not ignoring "A" rule, but "part of a" rule. Since the rules don't give a penalty for ignoring part of a rule, is it a rule at all?

 

Being that Mr Sui could run circles around me with his knowledge of the rules, I’m pretty confident that he was talking about a discussion more along the lines of what Sawgrass said. A game plan for making it efficient.

[sui generis]

> @Sawgrass said:

> I suspect the "agreement" Sui is discussing is best described as, "Unless we say otherwise, let's always leave the flagstick in."

>

> And not, "We are agreeing to never take the flagstick out" which would be a problem.

 

You suspect correctly.

Often it starts, if no one else has commented, with, "Everyone good with the flagstick in?"

"Fine by me," is the usual response. Though, of course, there's the odd, "Okay, but I might like it out once in awhile."

I see that "agreement" as somewhat equivalent in stroke play, of asking on the 1st tee, "Ready golf today, gentlemen?"

 

 

 

[Roadking2003]

I've played 630 holes of golf this year and never once seen anyone damage the hole when removing the ball.

[bladehunter]

 

Funny. The R and A mentioned it specifically as a topic that had been raised to them in the form of complaint from some greens keepers. Link below if you are skeptical. Have to read down to find it. But the comment is there.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/political-issues-in-and-out-of-golf-have-ra-chief-martin-slumbers-bracing-for-an-interesting-2019/amp