2019 ANA Inspiration Apr 04 - 07

[Argonne69]

> @Tasals said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > The sad reality is that the U.S. women's college golf system does a poor job preparing the young women for success in the professional ranks. If a young player didn't think they were ready for the LPGA at 18, moving to Korea and playing on the three tours there would be a much better choice than a university here.

> >

>

> Id love to know the major difference between the lack of success for college women compared to their male counterparts. You have guys like Bryson come out and seriously take on the world, sure he struggled and has had massive blow ups, but he has 5 PGA tour wins, and one Euro win in a relatively short time frame. That success is unheard of for NA/Euro ladies coming from college, with the ones who do similar feats skipping college and going pro right away. Those women might just have more of a complete game early on and the level of college golf might not be as competitive and good for their development. Players like Lexi and Brooke would probably dominate and have extremely impressive college careers, but they took their phenomenal talents to the LPGA when they were still in highschool.

 

I believe it's as simple as the better women players skipping college, knowing that they can compete at a younger age. Jessica kind of set the bar, and others quickly followed. If one has their sites set on a golf career, and has the talent to compete on the LPGA, I can see why they'd skip college. Collectively, Jessica, Lexi, Lydia, Minjee, and Brooke have earned a cool $32.3 million on the course. I don't think it takes an economics degree to figure out that they made the right choice.

[Seamus_McDuff]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @Stooch said:

> > > @Seamus_McDuff said:

> > > > @Stooch said:

> > > > Agreed, I always hear about this college player or that college player and most do nothing in the big picture. We get them getting a win or two or having brief success but usually not long lasting success. Correct me if I'm wrong but Stacey Lewis was the last I can remember having a significant impact. Honestly I don't put any player in my top players on tour till they have a couple wins. Although not a college player Nelly was a player I paid attention to but didn't put in the upper tier till she won her second tournament. When you come of the KLPGA as a winning player, you're gonna be a winning player on the LPGA. A great US college career doesn't mean you'll win on the LPGA tour.

> > >

> > > Nordqvist has done okay, 8 wins, 2 majors

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Very true, it's tough to remember everyone who came out of college lol

>

> She also came on tour in 2009. Yeah, there are a small number of college players who've done well. However, there are only 3 or 4 in the current World Top 50, and one in the top 25.

>

 

I count 13 in the Top 50

 

[18majors]

> @agolf1 said:

> One of the articles talked about Jin Young Ko picking up more yardage off the tee this year (in addition to improving her short game). Last year she was at 252.4 yards and 77th place. This year she's up to 260.4 yards but still basically in the same (relative) spot at 79th place. I thought these distance figures were questionable a few weeks ago, but the number of tournaments is adding up now so it will be interesting to see if they hold for the year. Of course, the tour average probably drifts up over time, as younger players join so some of the gains for the players that have been out here a few years may just keep them in about the same (relative) spot.

>

> Regardless, Jin Young Ko is 13th in Driving Accuracy, 1st in GIR, 2nd in Putts per GIR, and 14th in Total Putts.

>

> I would love to see Lydia get back to average/slightly above average distance and top quarter accuracy off the tee (2014-2015 levels). As I've mentioned, I'm interested to see if she can be a top 5 player again (as much a theoretical question - she's not my favorite player). But after reading more of the comments here, I think her tee ball is a big problem to compete at that level (others probably already knew that). She's picked up 9 yards this year (to 254.5 yards) but she's still 110th (and 101st in driving accuracy). Of course, not all of the tournaments are going to be setup like the ANA but this part of her game was definitely exposed this week. I think there was also another hole where she hit 5 wood and Lexi hit 9 iron.

>

>

 

Most birdies are either from GIR and one putt or 2 putt birdies on par 5. Lydia is good for first category with 59th on GIR and 19th on putts per GIR; she's below average on second category, being 110th on driving distance.

From practical standpoint; in six tournaments this year she missed one cut and her best finish was solo 8th; she's 23rd on official money.

It doesn't look like she'll return to Top 5, unless something changes.

 

[Stooch]

IMO the greatest thing affecting Lydia performance is a drop in performance with the putter. I remember Lydia at her height was dropping putts from everywhere, she was Inbeesque in many ways. Sure her driving is much more inconsistent and causes problems, like the tee on 6 in the 2nd round. Yes, changing her swing and chasing distance probably caused her to neglect her short game and as result it still suffers to some degree but honestly outside events like the last 2 weeks missing fairways (within reason) isn't fatal. I don't know why Lydia decided to change things cause honestly her game really mirrored Inbee's hit fairways and greens and use the putter as your weapon, if it worked for one of the best ever, I think it''s a pretty good formula. But honestly if you look at the players of dominance during Lydia good years, it was Lydia, Stacey and Inbee and all of them have managed to win recently but with all the new and young talent over the last 5 years all three were taken down a few pegs. I think we are just lucky to be seeing a wave of generational talent hitting the LPGA. Now it is much harder to get wins and a players margin for error is very small. Even with Jin Young's exceptional level of play she only won by 2 strokes.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @18majors said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > One of the articles talked about Jin Young Ko picking up more yardage off the tee this year (in addition to improving her short game). Last year she was at 252.4 yards and 77th place. This year she's up to 260.4 yards but still basically in the same (relative) spot at 79th place. I thought these distance figures were questionable a few weeks ago, but the number of tournaments is adding up now so it will be interesting to see if they hold for the year. Of course, the tour average probably drifts up over time, as younger players join so some of the gains for the players that have been out here a few years may just keep them in about the same (relative) spot.

> >

> > Regardless, Jin Young Ko is 13th in Driving Accuracy, 1st in GIR, 2nd in Putts per GIR, and 14th in Total Putts.

> >

> > I would love to see Lydia get back to average/slightly above average distance and top quarter accuracy off the tee (2014-2015 levels). As I've mentioned, I'm interested to see if she can be a top 5 player again (as much a theoretical question - she's not my favorite player). But after reading more of the comments here, I think her tee ball is a big problem to compete at that level (others probably already knew that). She's picked up 9 yards this year (to 254.5 yards) but she's still 110th (and 101st in driving accuracy). Of course, not all of the tournaments are going to be setup like the ANA but this part of her game was definitely exposed this week. I think there was also another hole where she hit 5 wood and Lexi hit 9 iron.

> >

> >

>

> Most birdies are either from GIR and one putt or 2 putt birdies on par 5. Lydia is good for first category with 59th on GIR and 19th on putts per GIR; she's below average on second category, being 110th on driving distance.

> From practical standpoint; in six tournaments this year she missed one cut and her best finish was solo 8th; she's 23rd on official money.

> It doesn't look like she'll return to Top 5, unless something changes.

>

 

If so, it will be amazing how fast the window closed. There are definitely many top golfers that only peaked for 1 to a few years. But I would have thought she'd be in the top tier longer. Basically, this is partly why long-term predictions in sports are pretty much meaningless. No doubt there are changes to (some of) the players, such as mindset, work ethic, life changes, etc. But I think the outside world (fans, sportswriters, myself included) tends to look at the result and then come up with reasons why it happened, why they believe it will continue, etc. Great players are great players, but there is also a lot of randomness that is built into the final outcome we observe.

[Shilgy]

> @Argonne69 said:

> > @Stooch said:

> > > @Seamus_McDuff said:

> > > > @Stooch said:

> > > > Agreed, I always hear about this college player or that college player and most do nothing in the big picture. We get them getting a win or two or having brief success but usually not long lasting success. Correct me if I'm wrong but Stacey Lewis was the last I can remember having a significant impact. Honestly I don't put any player in my top players on tour till they have a couple wins. Although not a college player Nelly was a player I paid attention to but didn't put in the upper tier till she won her second tournament. When you come of the KLPGA as a winning player, you're gonna be a winning player on the LPGA. A great US college career doesn't mean you'll win on the LPGA tour.

> > >

> > > Nordqvist has done okay, 8 wins, 2 majors

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Very true, it's tough to remember everyone who came out of college lol

>

> She also came on tour in 2009. Yeah, there are a small number of college players who've done well. However, there are only 3 or 4 in the current World Top 50, and one in the top 25.

>

 

Ciganda & Kang top 13

 

Salas, Alex, Ernst, Stanford, Munoz, Nordqvist, Wie(sort of), Olson, Liu, Altomare, Ewart Shadoff, Lindbergh.

Any of the South Koreans or China players besides Liu?

[Seamus_McDuff]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @Stooch said:

> > > > @Seamus_McDuff said:

> > > > > @Stooch said:

> > > > > Agreed, I always hear about this college player or that college player and most do nothing in the big picture. We get them getting a win or two or having brief success but usually not long lasting success. Correct me if I'm wrong but Stacey Lewis was the last I can remember having a significant impact. Honestly I don't put any player in my top players on tour till they have a couple wins. Although not a college player Nelly was a player I paid attention to but didn't put in the upper tier till she won her second tournament. When you come of the KLPGA as a winning player, you're gonna be a winning player on the LPGA. A great US college career doesn't mean you'll win on the LPGA tour.

> > > >

> > > > Nordqvist has done okay, 8 wins, 2 majors

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Very true, it's tough to remember everyone who came out of college lol

> >

> > She also came on tour in 2009. Yeah, there are a small number of college players who've done well. However, there are only 3 or 4 in the current World Top 50, and one in the top 25.

> >

>

> Ciganda & Kang top 13

>

> Salas, Alex, Ernst, Stanford, Munoz, Nordqvist, Wie(sort of), Olson, Liu, Altomare, Ewart Shadoff, Lindbergh.

> Any of the South Koreans or China players besides Liu?

 

I did not count Wie and missed Liu.

 

Masson

 

 

[4waymiss]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > > @Stooch said:

> > > > @Seamus_McDuff said:

> > > > > @Stooch said:

> > > > > Agreed, I always hear about this college player or that college player and most do nothing in the big picture. We get them getting a win or two or having brief success but usually not long lasting success. Correct me if I'm wrong but Stacey Lewis was the last I can remember having a significant impact. Honestly I don't put any player in my top players on tour till they have a couple wins. Although not a college player Nelly was a player I paid attention to but didn't put in the upper tier till she won her second tournament. When you come of the KLPGA as a winning player, you're gonna be a winning player on the LPGA. A great US college career doesn't mean you'll win on the LPGA tour.

> > > >

> > > > Nordqvist has done okay, 8 wins, 2 majors

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Very true, it's tough to remember everyone who came out of college lol

> >

> > She also came on tour in 2009. Yeah, there are a small number of college players who've done well. However, there are only 3 or 4 in the current World Top 50, and one in the top 25.

> >

>

> Ciganda & Kang top 13

>

> Salas, Alex, Ernst, Stanford, Munoz, Nordqvist, Wie(sort of), Olson, Liu, Altomare, Ewart Shadoff, Lindbergh.

> Any of the South Koreans or China players besides Liu?

 

Many of the top Korean players actually graduated from college , SYR, SYK , HJK , IGC etc. They played full time pro golf on KLPGA while attending college full time. I understand these girls are achievers , and most KLPGA tournaments are three days and requires short travel. But it is still mind boggling to see so many of them managed to pull off such feat.

 

Unless, of course if those colleges treat them as a football factory college in US would treat their "student"-athletes. College football is big money in US , but why would a college in Korea "take it easy" on their star professional student ? I mean is there a stigma on star athlete who does not attend college ?

 

@Rustbelt , can you shed some light on this ?

[Rustbelt]

> @4waymiss said:

> Unless, of course if those colleges treat them as a football factory college in US would treat their "student"-athletes. College football is big money in US , but why would a college in Korea "take it easy" on their star professional student ? I mean is there a stigma on star athlete who does not attend college ?

>

> @Rustbelt , can you shed some light on this ?

 

To be fair, colleges in Korea are very much a joke. It is getting better than used to be but it is almost certain to graduate once you get in. You need to do well on 2 entrance exams. Every single student takes these: one general and one college specific. Now, these were extremely competitive and difficult. Once you pass these, then many students do not do much except learn to drink and party. Grade schools and high schools are another story though. I post a few years ago how competitive K-12 were. There used to be a joke in Korea that going through high school and passing through entrance exams are more difficult than rest of life. Add that to having these "heroes" of Korea attending these colleges provided so much prestige so that they will provide everything for them. It is actually worse in Korea than in the US in that regard. I am not saying these ladies did not deserve degrees by any means but vast majority of young Koreans graduate from college if they had abilities to pay for tuition. That is a main reason why many Korean companies send their best and the brightest to the US to get their graduate degrees.

[Argonne69]

 

For starters, I'm referring to players who played college golf, not simply attended or graduated from college. Michelle did not play college golf at Stanford.

 

Oy, what list was I looking at? Of course there are 2 in the top 25, and 14 in the Top 50 (28%) . That's not saying much for college golf.

 

Looking at the Top 50, how many wins do they have collectively? Ciganda: 2. Kang: 2. Salas: 1. Alex: 1. Ernst: 1. Stanford: 6. Munoz: 1. Nordqvist: 8. Olson: 0. Masson: 1. Liu: 0. Altomare: 0. Ewart-Shadoff: 0. Lindberg: 1.

 

Angela had one win in her first 8 years on tour. 'Can't say that college golf prepared her for the professional ranks.

 

[Shilgy]

> @Argonne69 said:

>

> For starters, I'm referring to players who played college golf, not simply attended or graduated from college. Michelle did not play college golf at Stanford.

>

> Oy, what list was I looking at? Of course there are 2 in the top 25, and 14 in the Top 50 (28%) . That's not saying much for college golf.

>

> Looking at the Top 50, how many wins do they have collectively? Ciganda: 2. Kang: 2. Salas: 1. Alex: 1. Ernst: 1. Stanford: 6. Munoz: 1. Nordqvist: 8. Olson: 0. Masson: 1. Liu: 0. Altomare: 0. Ewart-Shadoff: 0. Lindberg: 1.

>

> Angela had one win in her first 8 years on tour. 'Can't say that college golf prepared her for the professional ranks.

>

 

Perhaps Angela would be an assistant pro somewhere if she had gone pro directly from high school? We do not know. Stats can be made to say what you want. There are many more US players that attended college than there are US players that went straight to the pros. College is not the way to make your game better. The best players do not go to college-see the Kordas and Lexi for example. That makes it look like skipping is better. But college is an easier and parent friendly way to get some experience than trying the mini tours like the Cactus Tour here in the SW.

[Stooch]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> >

> > For starters, I'm referring to players who played college golf, not simply attended or graduated from college. Michelle did not play college golf at Stanford.

> >

> > Oy, what list was I looking at? Of course there are 2 in the top 25, and 14 in the Top 50 (28%) . That's not saying much for college golf.

> >

> > Looking at the Top 50, how many wins do they have collectively? Ciganda: 2. Kang: 2. Salas: 1. Alex: 1. Ernst: 1. Stanford: 6. Munoz: 1. Nordqvist: 8. Olson: 0. Masson: 1. Liu: 0. Altomare: 0. Ewart-Shadoff: 0. Lindberg: 1.

> >

> > Angela had one win in her first 8 years on tour. 'Can't say that college golf prepared her for the professional ranks.

> >

>

> Perhaps Angela would be an assistant pro somewhere if she had gone pro directly from high school? We do not know. Stats can be made to say what you want. There are many more US players that attended college than there are US players that went straight to the pros. College is not the way to make your game better. The best players do not go to college-see the Kordas and Lexi for example. That makes it look like skipping is better. But college is an easier and parent friendly way to get some experience than trying the mini tours like the Cactus Tour here in the SW.

 

It's seems the point of the discussion is changing here, nobody is saying there's no value for players that go to college in the US, whether it be for education or for maturing. The point being made was dominant US players don't come out of the US college system anymore, the last American player that can be considered dominant on the LPGA and came from college is Stacey Lewis. So again, nobody is saying college doesn't benefit people or that they can't have successful LPGA careers, just top tier LPGA talent doesn't usually come out of college. Sure the Solheim cup coverage will tell how great it is when they are beating up on the Euro's. Match them up against Korean girls that battle their way out of the KLPGA. They re much stronger and more battle tested. If you are a golf prodigy you aren't going to US college, playing there will stunt your growth as a player, most college players that are in college are where they belong with the talent level they are at and the college experience allows them to grow and mature in golf and life.

[Argonne69]

Well said, Stooch. I would add that there is very likely a big financial incentive to play college golf, scholarships. I imagine that the best college players are getting a full ride, or at a minimum a significant financial package. As much as I'd like to see some of these players go play in Korea, I realize that's not going to happen to a large extent. What's the alternative? Poke around on the Symetra Tour, or other regional tours as Shilgy mentioned, paying out of one's pockets?

 

The sad reality is that the U.S. have basically no feeder system for the LPGA, unlike the KLPGA. As such, the talented players who don't quite have the skill level (yet) are forced into the college ranks.

[Argonne69]

I don't believe anyone mentioned Xiyu Lin's shot on 18. I'd love to see a video of how the ball wound up on the bridge in the first place. Lol. Now, if she had only holed out, it would be one of the greatest shots ever.

 

[4waymiss]

> @Argonne69 said:

> I don't believe anyone mentioned Xiyu Lin's shot on 18. I'd love to see a video of how the ball wound up on the bridge in the first place. Lol. Now, if she had only holed out, it would be one of the greatest shots ever.

>

 

I think our friend here @Stooch actually asked her on Twitter. :) She said she thinned a bunker shot from 150 yard out.

 

[Stooch]

> @4waymiss said:

> > @Argonne69 said:

> > I don't believe anyone mentioned Xiyu Lin's shot on 18. I'd love to see a video of how the ball wound up on the bridge in the first place. Lol. Now, if she had only holed out, it would be one of the greatest shots ever.

> >

>

> I think our friend here @Stooch actually asked her on Twitter. :) She said she thinned a bunker shot from 150 yard out.

>

 

Ha Ha I actually was replying to Brittany Lincicome asking the same thing as Argonne, saying the shot was great but we really needed to see the shot that got her there. then Brittany replied with a laugh and ask yeah Janet how did you get there. She then replied to us "Easy! Just blade your bunker shot from 144!" Brittany is actually one of the best follows on the LPGA very interactive with fans.

[Argonne69]

It would have been a bit cooler if she had used the Texas wedge. It would have reminded me of my childhood days playing at the miniature golf courses.

[Mellow]

Ah, the circle is complete ... The thread started with Brittany and Argonne's origin on the second post, and after seven winding pages got back to her.

 

Loved Xiyu's shot. I'm always cheering for her. She's been finding her form again this season, been very happy for her! One of the positive stories of this season so far.

[aliikane]

I'm glad nobody rushed the green to spray Jin Young Ko with beverages after the win and let her have a "champion moment". Maybe it is just me, but I think it ruins the setting when LPGA winners get rushed on the 18th green like that after a win. It would be better to spray the beverages after they left the 18th green.

[Argonne69]

Lucky 6 and Jin Young's friend did walk on to the green and douse her with water, but it was after she had exchanged pleasantries with In-Kyung and the caddies. I've kvetched for years about the over-the-top celebrations that occur before the pleasantries are exchanged.

[18majors]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @18majors said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > One of the articles talked about Jin Young Ko picking up more yardage off the tee this year (in addition to improving her short game). Last year she was at 252.4 yards and 77th place. This year she's up to 260.4 yards but still basically in the same (relative) spot at 79th place. I thought these distance figures were questionable a few weeks ago, but the number of tournaments is adding up now so it will be interesting to see if they hold for the year. Of course, the tour average probably drifts up over time, as younger players join so some of the gains for the players that have been out here a few years may just keep them in about the same (relative) spot.

> > >

> > > Regardless, Jin Young Ko is 13th in Driving Accuracy, 1st in GIR, 2nd in Putts per GIR, and 14th in Total Putts.

> > >

> > > I would love to see Lydia get back to average/slightly above average distance and top quarter accuracy off the tee (2014-2015 levels). As I've mentioned, I'm interested to see if she can be a top 5 player again (as much a theoretical question - she's not my favorite player). But after reading more of the comments here, I think her tee ball is a big problem to compete at that level (others probably already knew that). She's picked up 9 yards this year (to 254.5 yards) but she's still 110th (and 101st in driving accuracy). Of course, not all of the tournaments are going to be setup like the ANA but this part of her game was definitely exposed this week. I think there was also another hole where she hit 5 wood and Lexi hit 9 iron.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Most birdies are either from GIR and one putt or 2 putt birdies on par 5. Lydia is good for first category with 59th on GIR and 19th on putts per GIR; she's below average on second category, being 110th on driving distance.

> > From practical standpoint; in six tournaments this year she missed one cut and her best finish was solo 8th; she's 23rd on official money.

> > It doesn't look like she'll return to Top 5, unless something changes.

> >

>

> If so, it will be amazing how fast the window closed. There are definitely many top golfers that only peaked for 1 to a few years. But I would have thought she'd be in the top tier longer. Basically, this is partly why long-term predictions in sports are pretty much meaningless. No doubt there are changes to (some of) the players, such as mindset, work ethic, life changes, etc. But I think the outside world (fans, sportswriters, myself included) tends to look at the result and then come up with reasons why it happened, why they believe it will continue, etc. Great players are great players, but there is also a lot of randomness that is built into the final outcome we observe.

 

Lydia will forever be etched in history as the only golfer with 14 titles including 2 majors before age 20.

Among top 15 players, only Nasa Hataoka (20) and Nelly Korda (20) are younger than Lydia and Brooke; Jin Young Ko (23) and Sung Hyun Park (25), are courteous of South Korea.

My hunch is there'll be many more players younger than Lydia among top 15 two years from now.