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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


Kiwi2

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Jim is all this stuff in one of your downloads? I want to invest in this and start learning the moves, one by one. Then get a lesson with you in UK.

 

 

Module Four video on the Pivot covers Tilt Switch - along with a ton of other parts of the Pivot.

I just bought you great shot ebook. There should be some coverage in there?
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I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

 

In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

 

Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

 

Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist c0ck is a little tricky at the same time.

 

Yes - you want to create the flat left wrist during takeaway by hinging backwards with right wrist. Blend in the c0cking motion as well.

Love it Jim! I actually figured that out using mirror work. I've never hinged my wrists like that before....was always a touch across the line from cupping the left wrist and keeping the right one straight/flat. Another light bulb!
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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm interested in getting started with this program but this webpage is confusing me. Some modules are numbers and some are letters - where do I start?

 

https://balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos

Driver: Wishon 919thi 11* w/AXE 6 stiff
FW: Wishon 949mc 16.5* w/AXE FW Stiff
3-4 Hybrids: Wishon 775hs w/ S2S White Stiff
Irons: Miura CB-1008 w/Nippon Modus 105 S
Putter: Ping Ketsch Heavy 34" 2 degrees flat
Wedges: Cleveland RTX 2.0

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I'm interested in getting started with this program but this webpage is confusing me. Some modules are numbers and some are letters - where do I start?

 

https://balancepoint...hop/golf-videos

 

The Great Shot!: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video series is in a developmental sequence of learning the fundamentals of the golf swing. Some Modules have more than one video due to large number of fundamental elements in that category of golf swing learning.

 

Where you start depends on your skill level: high handicaps and beginners start with Module One A.

 

Advanced golfers might start with Module Four on Pivot or Five on Release.

 

PM me with your golf history and average score and 7 iron and driver distance and greens in regulation stat and I will make a recommendation.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Jim,

 

I keep coming back to this method for my best ball striking. Thanks again.

 

Will you be doing clinics ever in the michigan area?

 

Sorry no schools in Michigan. I mainly work out of my home base in Portland, Oregon May through October.

 

Winter months on Oahu, Spring in Palm Desert.

 

Late September I will be in Dublin, Ireland and the following week in London.

 

Planning stages right now for my third trip to Singapore in December.

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Jim,

 

Do you have experience people wanting to drop their arms behind them in the downswing will working on the "pushaway" because they feel they don't have enough depth at the top? How do you suggest correcting this feeling?

 

If you mean "depth" with hand path, then yes. But depth with hand path is only half of it. Other half is creating a full range of motion with the chest rotation. Blend of both is what creates the proper amount of "depth".

 

Pushaway if done correctly is on 45 degree angle to your rotating chest by end of takeaway.

 

From there the hands move even farther away from torso mid-line starting around a 9 iron through driver(wedges should stay on the 45 degree left arm angle to the Top or nearly so) from Pivot momentum, IF your Pivot is correct and your arm Triangle pressures are correct.

 

But some folks - especially those trying to implement this stuff without actual feedback from me - interpret this info incorrectly and apply it incorrectly, and push out way too much (more than 4 to 6" for average build golfers) and do not pushaway on the 45 angle but closer to 30 degrees and in that case you will not have enough depth.

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Picked up golf 8 months ago. Have been taking 1/2 hour weekly lessons at my local course, and have been happy with my progress thus far.

 

Found this thread last Sunday and have been totally immersed since. Got the training manual and three of the videos. Have a standing desk at work and would say I literally have spent at least 4 hours everyday this week practicing and repeating the different motions and concepts at my desk/when I got back home, lol.

 

Feel like my learning has been turbocharged, can visualize and feel the different moves my local pro has been showing me.

 

Anyway, went to the range tonight and like many others ITT, was hitting alot of great strikes with all of my irons but inconsistent with my driver, woods and hybrids. Made a conscious effort not to exagerrate the woodchopping motion so much and results with the driver started to improve.

 

But wasn't sure if I should also stop "chopping so much wood" with the irons given that the ball flight results were good?

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Picked up golf 8 months ago. Have been taking 1/2 hour weekly lessons at my local course, and have been happy with my progress thus far.

 

Found this thread last Sunday and have been totally immersed since. Got the training manual and three of the videos. Have a standing desk at work and would say I literally have spent at least 4 hours everyday this week practicing and repeating the different motions and concepts at my desk/when I got back home, lol.

 

Feel like my learning has been turbocharged, can visualize and feel the different moves my local pro has been showing me.

 

Anyway, went to the range tonight and like many others ITT, was hitting alot of great strikes with all of my irons but inconsistent with my driver, woods and hybrids. Made a conscious effort not to exagerrate the woodchopping motion so much and results with the driver started to improve.

 

But wasn't sure if I should also stop "chopping so much wood" with the irons given that the ball flight results were good?

 

Great to hear you are benefiting from the book and videos!

 

The answer is that very likely you are taking the advice about wood-chopping too literally and overdoing it - most golfers in fact do overdo new instruction, very common.

 

You can get away with that with the irons due to their steeper angle of attack - not so with the woods.

 

You should tape yourself and see what precisely your body and club are doing in slow motion - then you will know.

 

Blending the Levers release with the Pivot will result in an on plane or nearly so shaft during the downswing to followthrough.

 

Focusing only on that one part of it, ie the Levers, is fine in the early stages of training. but for it to actually work well in your swing, you have to learn a functional Pivot and blend the two together. That takes a lot of time and patience!

 

The notion of woodchopping is for beginners and high cappers who basically do not have hardly any "down" dimension in their forward swings. Their arms, right elbow angle and their wrists - the Levers in golf - release the angles in the toward the target or horizontal dimension. Wrist c0ck angle especially need to release down not sideways toward the ball or target.

 

You need to blend the Pivot with the Levers properly to have a functional Release.

 

Takes a clear mind, some slow mo mirror work, then some half speed swings, focusing on the feels, and some videotaping to see what your body and club are objectively doing. NOT hitting balls on the range! The danger of using ball flight results as feedback for beginners and high cappers is simply this - there are MANY variables in the swing that can cause a bad golf shot. You could do the one swing change you are intending perfectly and still cold shank the ball.....due to some other totally different fatal flaw.

 

Most golfers will then abandon the swing change they started with, search the Internet for a different "answer", rinse and repeat.....

 

Remember this rule: your mental intention to have your body implement a new swing change is not nearly enough, it's only the first tiny baby step on a long road to a functional golf swing. It's why I have consistently downplayed the role of swing theory in the real Process that is needed to actually get really good at ballstriking.

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Thanks Jim! Have had three more Aha! moments just since going through the materials last night (grip was too tight contributing to exagerrated woodchop motion to release wrists, feet were not firmly planted resulting in too much hip turn preventing a nice coiling pivot, and was mechanically taking club back instead of "slinging" it back for a more fluid motion).

 

What I love about your materials is that they are written/provided in a way that I feel like I can get meaningful learning and progress away from the course/driving range which is limited for all us non-professional/retired folks. And in fact that is how you strongly recommend we spend alot of our time learning!

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Failing to firmly plant feet not only resulted in too much hip turn, but also all kinds of unneccessary motion in the lower body, 1) destabilizing my swing 2) requiring extra subconscious thought to make small self correcting movements to "make sure I hit the ball" 3) which in turn made me ball bound, resulting in other problems.

 

Love your teaching method Jim.

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Thanks Jim! Have had three more Aha! moments just since going through the materials last night (grip was too tight contributing to exagerrated woodchop motion to release wrists, feet were not firmly planted resulting in too much hip turn preventing a nice coiling pivot, and was mechanically taking club back instead of "slinging" it back for a more fluid motion).

 

What I love about your materials is that they are written/provided in a way that I feel like I can get meaningful learning and progress away from the course/driving range which is limited for all us non-professional/retired folks. And in fact that is how you strongly recommend we spend alot of our time learning!

 

Exactly on your last point!

 

For mid to high caps especially, the bulk of the practice takes place away from a ball in my program, about 75% of it actually.

 

The other 25% is stuff you do need to do on the range striking a ball: all the mental focus stuff that involves learning to ignore the ball and ignoring impact and ignoring trying to "track" the clubhead through thinking, ie Steering Impulse, Hit Impulse, Scooping Impulse and Impact Help Out Impulse, Balance, Tempo, Rhythm, Release Timing, Path drills, face angle drills, and aim/alignment.

 

Couple that stuff with a functionally sound golf swing mechanics - Pivot, Arm Motion, and Levers of right elbow and wrists and forearms - and you are gold!

 

You do not need a golf ball at all to learn the proper Mechanics.

 

I learned all of the "mechanics" of how to punch, block and kick as an 11 year old taking Japanese karate instruction from one of the best martial arts instructors in the world, and all of it was learned in slow motion and half speed away from an opponent/fighting situation. When I then graduated to "fighting" a fellow student, my mechanics worked flawlessly.

 

The fact that the ball is stationary allows us to do this.

 

Good mechanics allows you to not react to the ball and no need for any "hand-eye coordination".

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This thread and Jim's work helped me really understand the distinction between what we are doing with the wrist hinge (which we want to maintain at impact) and a wrist c0ck (which we want to let release downwards). Went to our practice hole today.

 

Started chipping around the green, focusing on a hinged wrist and a small pivot. Then went about 60 yards out and focused on pitching with a hinged wrist, cocked wrist which I released, and my pivot. Then went in the middle about 30 yards out and started alternating between a pitch with just a hinged wrist (no cocking) and a pitch with a hinged wrist and a wrist c0ck to really help me feel the two distinct movements, and see how the wrist c0ck action affects the ball action.

 

Was very cool and alot of fun.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've gone through 15 pages looking for videos of anyone, ANYONE performing a full swing after the light bulb "turned on" for them. I can find a lot of videos from Jim demonstrating a crucial 50% of the swing. Does he ever hit a ball? That's generally our goal, right? To hit the little white thing.

 

I read a lot of anecdotes. And witness a lot of hostility and "you just don't get it" when challenged.

 

Where are the results? Can anyone on here show me them hitting. a. golf. ball? I want to see the impact.

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Hi Jim

 

I was reading about your posts on hit impulse etc and it got me thinking. Why don’t people accept that if they had an intent to hit the ball as hard as possible that their body mechanics are going to

Change based on that intent?

 

Indeed if someone does accept this premise, Would it be useful

For them to analyse how their swing changes when they try to apply maximum power to the ball?

 

If someone became much more armsy and less pivot driven with the intent of maximum power- would that highlight they had some misconceptions as to what power was?

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> @HogansHoover said:

> Hi Jim

>

> I was reading about your posts on hit impulse etc and it got me thinking. Why don’t people accept that if they had an intent to hit the ball as hard as possible that their body mechanics are going to

> Change based on that intent?

>

> Indeed if someone does accept this premise, Would it be useful

> For them to analyse how their swing changes when they try to apply maximum power to the ball?

>

> If someone became much more armsy and less pivot driven with the intent of maximum power- would that highlight they had some misconceptions as to what power was?

 

For sure! You can video your swing when you feel that voice in your head yell "Kill it!" and see how much that intent creates an early wrist angles release, or a body lunge, or a too fast un-coiling of the chest with zero Tilt Switch (classic OTT), or a super disconnected armsy swipe of the lead arm across the chest well before impact.

 

When you watch most high cappers Transition, you can clearly see how super armsy they are, with a massive Pivot Stall going along with that arm swiping motion.

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> @"Jim Waldron" said:

> chigolfer1 wrote:

>

>

> PJ72 wrote:

>

>

> Jim Waldron wrote:

>

>

>

> I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

>

>

>

> In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

>

>

>

> Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

>

>

>

> Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

>

>

>

> Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

 

don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

 

It is amazing how different it feels.

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> @smdykas said:

> > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > chigolfer1 wrote:

> >

> >

> > PJ72 wrote:

> >

> >

> > Jim Waldron wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

> >

> >

> >

> > In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

> >

> >

> >

> > Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

> >

> >

> >

> > Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

> >

> >

> >

> > Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

>

> don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

>

> It is amazing how different it feels.

 

Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".

If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.

Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.

I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

 

 

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> @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > @smdykas said:

> > > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > chigolfer1 wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > PJ72 wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Jim Waldron wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

> >

> > don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

> >

> > It is amazing how different it feels.

>

> Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".

> If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.

> Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.

> I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

>

>

 

did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

 

I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

 

What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

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> @smdykas said:

> > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > @smdykas said:

> > > > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > > chigolfer1 wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > PJ72 wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Jim Waldron wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

> > >

> > > don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

> > >

> > > It is amazing how different it feels.

> >

> > Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".

> > If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.

> > Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.

> > I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

> >

> >

>

> did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

>

> I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

>

> What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

 

Good to know my concepts are helping!

 

Module Four on Pivot and Five on The Levers and Release.

 

When you use the term "firing" it means active contraction of the muscles to move a bone, hence my response.

 

Most readers would interpret that phrase as active moving of the arms with the arm muscles.

 

"Tilting" refers to the right side bend of the torso/s girdle that happens on the forward swing starting with Tilt Switch during Transition.

 

 

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> @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > @smdykas said:

> > > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > > @smdykas said:

> > > > > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > > > chigolfer1 wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > PJ72 wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Jim Waldron wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

> > > >

> > > > don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

> > > >

> > > > It is amazing how different it feels.

> > >

> > > Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".

> > > If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.

> > > Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.

> > > I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

> >

> > I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

> >

> > What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

>

> Good to know my concepts are helping!

>

> Module Four on Pivot and Five on The Levers and Release.

>

> When you use the term "firing" it means active contraction of the muscles to move a bone, hence my response.

>

> Most readers would interpret that phrase as active moving of the arms with the arm muscles.

>

> "Tilting" refers to the right side bend of the torso/s girdle that happens on the forward swing starting with Tilt Switch during Transition.

>

>

 

I just discovered the difference last night. I really focused on the tilt switch, and hit so much better. The feeling was moving the hips forward, and turning them. It feels so strange. I guess I haven't gotten rid of the hit impulse yet. But I could not argue the results. No more pull draws/hooks.

 

I will do more research and work on module 4.

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Share on other sites

> @smdykas said:

> > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > @smdykas said:

> > > > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > > > @smdykas said:

> > > > > > @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > > > > > chigolfer1 wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > PJ72 wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jim Waldron wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have not talked much about the role of "axis tilt" and the Arm Swing Illusion but here is one way to understand their relationship. What brings the arms down to re-connect to the body? Is it 100% gravity drop? Is it momentum from the Pivot? Is it the arm muscles pulling the arms down? (NO!)

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In truth, it is a little bit of gravity drop, and a lot of momentum from Pivot rotation of hips, core and shoulder girdle. But it is also the fact that right lateral side bend or "axis tilt" both from upper lumbar area and mid-thoracic area of the spine MOVES THE ARMS CLOSER TO THE BODY. You can do this drill to prove it to yourself: go to the Top, on the Turned Shoulder Plane with your flat left wrist, and then shift your tailbone to your left a bit while you Tilt Switch from mid-back, ie go from 20 degrees left tilt to 10 degrees right tilt, and blend those two "tilts" with a little un-winding of your hips, core and shoulder girdle, not very much, just a bit. Try to keep your arms/hands/clubs back in their Top of backswing position. Most of you will be stunned when you see the tilts and rotation bring your hands/arms down into a perfect P6 position. The arms cannot stay up there at the Top. The pivot - and remember the tilts are part of the pivot - brings them down automatically. All of this "pull my arms down" to P6, or "pause at the Top and then throw my arms at the ball" or "time my gravity arm drop while I delay my pivot", is just stuff that comes about because of the Arm Swing Illusion controlling what one believes to be possible -and impossible. This is DOING NOTHING with the arms.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jim, i'm only about 20 pages in. I'm curious about the flat left wrist. Is this always the case?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually, I edited that last bit out. I tried it again and i seem to be able to keep it flat, but getting the wrist **** is a little tricky at the same time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is a great nugget you found in the thread about the arms.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jim - do the arms EVER do anything as far as applying "independent force" so to speak? In other words, once you get to P6 can you think about applying force or should they always rag doll, for lack of a better term? Or, have I misinterpreted the post above being quoted?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No - the arms have ZERO independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets from P6 to just after impact.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not a "rag doll" - arms are sides of the Triangle and are moving very fast by the Pivot but ONLY by the Pivot.

> > > > >

> > > > > don't you have to fire your arms down as you pivot? From the shoulders? I have been practicing this all winter and that is something I am working on. Arms move up and hinge, then come back down as you pivot.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is amazing how different it feels.

> > > >

> > > > Like all swing theory it all depends precisely what you mean by "fire the arms ".

> > > > If you mean using independent arm muscles moving the arms then - no.

> > > > Shoulder girdle tilting and un-coiling moves the arms down out and forward in Transition as I stated.

> > > > I would never tell an average golfer especially to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms as they are already doing that way, way too much - its a massive and very common flaw.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > did not mean the independent firing of arm muscles. If anything, it feels like arms are more passive.

> > >

> > > I think we are saying the same thing. I may not fully understand your term "shoulder girdle tilting" but I have a feeling like I am uncoiling while trying to split wood with an axe. No hit impulse, no turning of forearms. I would have never understood this move if not for your ASI work.

> > >

> > > What module in your teaching could I get to better understand the move of the DS to impact?

> >

> > Good to know my concepts are helping!

> >

> > Module Four on Pivot and Five on The Levers and Release.

> >

> > When you use the term "firing" it means active contraction of the muscles to move a bone, hence my response.

> >

> > Most readers would interpret that phrase as active moving of the arms with the arm muscles.

> >

> > "Tilting" refers to the right side bend of the torso/s girdle that happens on the forward swing starting with Tilt Switch during Transition.

> >

> >

>

> I just discovered the difference last night. I really focused on the tilt switch, and hit so much better. The feeling was moving the hips forward, and turning them. It feels so strange. I guess I haven't gotten rid of the hit impulse yet. But I could not argue the results. No more pull draws/hooks.

>

> I will do more research and work on module 4.

 

Yeah - using your core and big muscles of the Pivot to power your forward swing is a radical paradigm shift for almost all of my students who achieve it. Takes the smaller "manipulation" muscles of the arms out of the motion and makes it simpler, fewer moving parts, and thus easier to repeat.

 

Very counter-intuitive though!

Which is one reason it is almost impossible to stumble across on your own.....

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I have had quite a few requests lately for additional comments about the ASI and the kind of practical application I deal with everyday on the lesson tee with students new to the concept. Basically what are the most common mis-conceptions about the ASI ( and there are many!).

Here are the main ones.

 

1. the concept that the ASI is a "swing method" or "swing model" is widespread. It's just not either of those things.

I do have my own "ideal" or "model" golf swing theory that I use as a starting point in my teaching, and the ASI concept is just one of several important parts of that model. ASI is not a Magic Move, not even close. It's really not a "move" at all, but just a concept that helps folks understand why and how they struggle so much with learning an effective swing. Basically you could say that ASI is just the breakthrough revelation that makes it easier to start to see the golf swing from a 3D point of view.

 

2.The ASI applies only to the backswing. Not even close to being accurate. Actually the ASI is far more important on the forward swing, ie has more radical implications on the forward swing than on the backswing. The most important of those is the concept of "Super-Connection" (one of Hogan's "secrets" that Tom Weiskopf shared with me at Pebble Beach PGA tournament in 1977) which is that from P6 to just after impact all independent sideways motion of the upper arms in the shoulder sockets comes to a complete stop. Which means that the delivery of the clubhead into the back of the ball is achieved primarily through the Pivot, ie the turning and tilting motion of the torso.

 

3. The ASI has the most influence on the golf swing and shot in Waldron's view. Again - not even close to being accurate.

I believe that Balance has the most influence overall on the quality of your golf shot, with Setup being close behind.

 

4. The shaft plane in Waldron's swing model is "steep" or "upright" like a Jim Furyk swing, our "outside the plane".

Wrong! As I have stated many times in this mega-thread. This is one of most common mis-conceptions. I teach an on plane shaft as the ideal in the golf swing, but also believe that the preferred error of the two - inside vs outside - is certainly a little to the outside. Which most PGA tour pros in fact do historically. Does not mean you cannot be slightly inside the plane and hit it great, of course you can. But for average weekend golfers with limited practice time, the inside miss is more toxic and tough to recover from, ie being "stuck" than from being a bit outside.

 

5. "The 45 degree arm pushaway angle is to the target line" - absolute rubbish. The 45 degree angle is to your moving/rotating chest - NOT the target line. Meaning you have to blend that very slight pushaway of 4-8" with your chest rotating. Some of that 4-8" of arm motion is due to Pivot momentum, so I always emphasize how tiny that little bit of independent arm motion is to new students. The hard part that takes some reps time is the blending of the two motions, along with a third piece, setting the proper wrist angles. Like rubbing your tummy and patting your head. The problem is Human Nature impels us to want to do just one move and not three blended together. That search for the one Magic Move drives a lot of golf instruction marketing. The truth is the golf swing is a coordinated motion of several Big Pieces and until and unless you are willing to face that fact, you will continue to struggle.

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> @"Jim Waldron" said:

> I have had quite a few requests lately for additional comments about the ASI and the kind of practical application I deal with everyday on the lesson tee with students new to the concept. Basically what are the most common mis-conceptions about the ASI ( and there are many!).

> Here are the main ones.

>

> 1. the concept that the ASI is a "swing method" or "swing model" is widespread. It's just not either of those things.

> I do have my own "ideal" or "model" golf swing theory that I use as a starting point in my teaching, and the ASI concept is just one of several important parts of that model. ASI is not a Magic Move, not even close. It's really not a "move" at all, but just a concept that helps folks understand why and how they struggle so much with learning an effective swing. Basically you could say that ASI is just the breakthrough revelation that makes it easier to start to see the golf swing from a 3D point of view.

>

> 2.The ASI applies only to the backswing. Not even close to being accurate. Actually the ASI is far more important on the forward swing, ie has more radical implications on the forward swing than on the backswing. The most important of those is the concept of "Super-Connection" (one of Hogan's "secrets" that Tom Weiskopf shared with me at Pebble Beach PGA tournament in 1977) which is that from P6 to just after impact all independent sideways motion of the upper arms in the shoulder sockets comes to a complete stop. Which means that the delivery of the clubhead into the back of the ball is achieved primarily through the Pivot, ie the turning and tilting motion of the torso.

>

> 3. The ASI has the most influence on the golf swing and shot in Waldron's view. Again - not even close to being accurate.

> I believe that Balance has the most influence overall on the quality of your golf shot, with Setup being close behind.

>

> 4. The shaft plane in Waldron's swing model is "steep" or "upright" like a Jim Furyk swing, our "outside the plane".

> Wrong! As I have stated many times in this mega-thread. This is one of most common mis-conceptions. I teach an on plane shaft as the ideal in the golf swing, but also believe that the preferred error of the two - inside vs outside - is certainly a little to the outside. Which most PGA tour pros in fact do historically. Does not mean you cannot be slightly inside the plane and hit it great, of course you can. But for average weekend golfers with limited practice time, the inside miss is more toxic and tough to recover from, ie being "stuck" than from being a bit outside.

>

> 5. "The 45 degree arm pushaway angle is to the target line" - absolute rubbish. The 45 degree angle is to your moving/rotating chest - NOT the target line. Meaning you have to blend that very slight pushaway of 4-8" with your chest rotating. Some of that 4-8" of arm motion is due to Pivot momentum, so I always emphasize how tiny that little bit of independent arm motion is to new students. The hard part that takes some reps time is the blending of the two motions, along with a third piece, setting the proper wrist angles. Like rubbing your tummy and patting your head. The problem is Human Nature impels us to want to do just one move and not three blended together. That search for the one Magic Move drives a lot of golf instruction marketing. The truth is the golf swing is a coordinated motion of several Big Pieces and until and unless you are willing to face that fact, you will continue to struggle.

 

Enjoying reading through this thread. Thank you for the info... I've read about a concept like this that broke down the swing into 2 separate movements with the arms being more up and down in front of the body and it probably generated through you.

 

One thing that seems to help me is drilling these 2 movements separately at first to get a feel for where my hands should finish at the top. Not sure if this is ever something you teach but it seems to help me blend the movements together when taking a real swing. Kind of like getting a sense of where hands are at point A (setup) and where they've got to get to at point B (at the end of backswing), and then finding the shortest path between the 2 points. Before doing this i felt like it was difficult to find the correct blending you describe. Too much lift, not enough lift, etc.

 

Basically in the drill i pivot completely, hips/torso only, without moving my arms or hands in any way. Once my back is toward the target I lift my left arm as high and in front of my torso/chest as possible while allowing my right elbow to hinge but not really lift. Sort of like a one piece takeaway but much more exaggerated since i turn completely without letting my arms or hands move and then lifting left arm.

 

Again not sure if you teach this drill or have a better one but it helps me feel where my hands should be at the top and definitely keeps them in front of my body. I have struggled for a long with with taking it inside then up which i believe causes a wicked chain of events to follow. Namely getting very steep and early extension of lower body and spine. I'm excited to keep reading and learn more. I think this could be a game changer.

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Yes - that is indeed a drill we use in our golf schools!

And there a few different variations. One way is to Pivot to the Top with arms x-crossed on your chest. Then simply extend your arms to proper Top position from there toward right side of your chest in the classic "waiter's tray" position with right elbow at a 75-90 degree angle and wrists fully c0cked and a flat left wrist.

 

Another is to do the arm part first ie the 6" pushaway on a 45 degree angle to your chest without ANY Pivot, then fold right elbow angle and let the left arm raise up about 8-12" and set the wrist angles....pause...then Pivot to the Top while arms stay '"frozen" in their pre-set position you established.

 

I call these kinds of drills "Swing Map" drills, ie they are meant mainly to create a new insight into how the proper swing works. Not really a "reps" kind of drill, but just helps to clarify your mental picture for what is correct vs incorrect.

 

Here is an older version from 2008:

 

And three more:

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Jim would be interested in your comments on two or three related matters. First, to those of us who know the Golfing Machine it seems your pushaway has to put the club above (and not pointed at) the target line.

This connects up to issues of plane and whether and is so how much to flatten the COM on the down swing. How does ASI connect up here?

Second, back swing sequence may not be the secret of golf but .... Any thoughts or drills for those of us who turn out hips early, but fully, and there end up restricting our shoulder turn to less than the ideal (90*) or even the barely acceptable (75*)

This is a nice video on your pushaway

If the budget said only one of your videos on the ASI, which one?

 

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      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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