Zach Johnson - no penalty

[nsxguy]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > Can't quite figure out how that's a great way of making a practice stroke.

> > >

> > > Well, maybe because it is not a practice stroke but a practice swing...

> >

> > Except that my statement wasn't "Rules-wise" but "description-wise" so practice "stroke" describes it just as well.

> >

> > But thanks anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

> No it doesn't. It describes something different.

 

We shall agree to disagree.

[Colin L]

You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

[Shilgy]

> @"Colin L" said:

> You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

 

Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Shilgy said:

> Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

 

If he's that with-it, he could also intentionally step away, and skip the whiff. :)

 

 

 

[Halebopp]

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> > @mwmgolfx said:

> > How do you tell this isn't a setup type of thing where if the caddy is behind him that he automatically incurs a penalty because his caddy is there when he first takes a stance, even if he isn't intending to hit the ball with that setup and swing why isn't he penalized. Is it because its on the tee only.

>

> That's only for putting. You can just reset to avoid the penalty off the green.

 

You can avoid the penalty by resetting everywhere on the course now.

[Colin L]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

>

> Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

 

Why would you ? If you mean that you could delberately abort your swing because you were suddenly aware of your caddie standing behind you, it would be too late since when you started taking your stance it was for the stroke. The breach occurred well before your deliberate whiff.

[Shilgy]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

> >

> > Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

>

> Why would you ? If you mean that you could delberately abort your swing because you were suddenly aware of your caddie standing behind you, it would be too late since when you started taking your stance it was for the stroke. The breach occurred well before your deliberate whiff.

 

Sorry-sarcasm does not travel to print well. I was kidding. But it raises the question....is it a breach? Is it allowable for the caddie to stand behind for a practice swing? By rule is an aborted swing a practice swing or .....?

[Halebopp]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

> > >

> > > Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

> >

> > Why would you ? If you mean that you could delberately abort your swing because you were suddenly aware of your caddie standing behind you, it would be too late since when you started taking your stance it was for the stroke. The breach occurred well before your deliberate whiff.

>

> Sorry-sarcasm does not travel to print well. I was kidding. But it raises the question....is it a breach? Is it allowable for the caddie to stand behind for a practice swing? By rule is an aborted swing a practice swing or .....?

 

I can't see it being an issue as long as the player backs away from the stance after the practice swing. After all, the rule says, " When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke...". Isn't that the case the one player was penalized (swinging the club in the stance for the stroke with the caddie behind him? He then backed away but was penalized as he had already taken the stance for the stroke. The next week they came out with the clarification that backing away resets the situation everywhere on the course.

[Shilgy]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

> > > >

> > > > Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

> > >

> > > Why would you ? If you mean that you could delberately abort your swing because you were suddenly aware of your caddie standing behind you, it would be too late since when you started taking your stance it was for the stroke. The breach occurred well before your deliberate whiff.

> >

> > Sorry-sarcasm does not travel to print well. I was kidding. But it raises the question....is it a breach? Is it allowable for the caddie to stand behind for a practice swing? By rule is an aborted swing a practice swing or .....?

>

> I can't see it being an issue as long as the player backs away from the stance after the practice swing. After all, the rule says, " When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke...". Isn't that the case the one player was penalized (swinging the club in the stance for the stroke with the caddie behind him? He then backed away but was penalized as he had already taken the stance for the stroke. The next week they came out with the clarification that backing away resets the situation everywhere on the course.

 

I am now reading the clarification and it states(paraphrasing) that the caddie cannot be there when the player takes a stance for the stroke-as Colin mentioned. BUT... it does state that the reference to "the stroke" means the stroke that is actually made. Which gives the player to step away and reset and....means he could do a Na and whiff intentionally. :)

[Halebopp]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

> > > >

> > > > Why would you ? If you mean that you could delberately abort your swing because you were suddenly aware of your caddie standing behind you, it would be too late since when you started taking your stance it was for the stroke. The breach occurred well before your deliberate whiff.

> > >

> > > Sorry-sarcasm does not travel to print well. I was kidding. But it raises the question....is it a breach? Is it allowable for the caddie to stand behind for a practice swing? By rule is an aborted swing a practice swing or .....?

> >

> > I can't see it being an issue as long as the player backs away from the stance after the practice swing. After all, the rule says, " When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke...". Isn't that the case the one player was penalized (swinging the club in the stance for the stroke with the caddie behind him? He then backed away but was penalized as he had already taken the stance for the stroke. The next week they came out with the clarification that backing away resets the situation everywhere on the course.

>

> I am now reading the clarification and it states(paraphrasing) that the caddie cannot be there when the player takes a stance for the stroke-as Colin mentioned. BUT... it does state that the reference to "the stroke" means the stroke that is actually made. Which gives the player to step away and reset and....means he could do a Na and whiff intentionally. :)

 

Yes, as long as you back off and reset the situation. There's no stroke if there's no intent to strike the ball. Here's the video of the case which was a penalty before (and probably why) they changed it:

 

[Colin L]

> @Shilgy said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

> > > >

> > > > Why would you ? If you mean that you could delberately abort your swing because you were suddenly aware of your caddie standing behind you, it would be too late since when you started taking your stance it was for the stroke. The breach occurred well before your deliberate whiff.

> > >

> > > Sorry-sarcasm does not travel to print well. I was kidding. But it raises the question....is it a breach? Is it allowable for the caddie to stand behind for a practice swing? By rule is an aborted swing a practice swing or .....?

> >

> > I can't see it being an issue as long as the player backs away from the stance after the practice swing. After all, the rule says, " When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke...". Isn't that the case the one player was penalized (swinging the club in the stance for the stroke with the caddie behind him? He then backed away but was penalized as he had already taken the stance for the stroke. The next week they came out with the clarification that backing away resets the situation everywhere on the course.

>

> I am now reading the clarification and it states(paraphrasing) that the caddie cannot be there when the player takes a stance for the stroke-as Colin mentioned. BUT... it does state that the reference to "the stroke" means the stroke that is actually made. Which gives the player to step away and reset and....means he could do a Na and whiff intentionally. :)

 

I don’t like it , but I can’t see a way to refute that ..... for the moment.

[antip]

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > > You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hmm, so a player could avoid the caddie behind penalty by intentionally whiffing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why would you ? If you mean that you could delberately abort your swing because you were suddenly aware of your caddie standing behind you, it would be too late since when you started taking your stance it was for the stroke. The breach occurred well before your deliberate whiff.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry-sarcasm does not travel to print well. I was kidding. But it raises the question....is it a breach? Is it allowable for the caddie to stand behind for a practice swing? By rule is an aborted swing a practice swing or .....?

> > >

> > > I can't see it being an issue as long as the player backs away from the stance after the practice swing. After all, the rule says, " When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke...". Isn't that the case the one player was penalized (swinging the club in the stance for the stroke with the caddie behind him? He then backed away but was penalized as he had already taken the stance for the stroke. The next week they came out with the clarification that backing away resets the situation everywhere on the course.

> >

> > I am now reading the clarification and it states(paraphrasing) that the caddie cannot be there when the player takes a stance for the stroke-as Colin mentioned. BUT... it does state that the reference to "the stroke" means the stroke that is actually made. Which gives the player to step away and reset and....means he could do a Na and whiff intentionally. :)

>

> I don’t like it , but I can’t see a way to refute that ..... for the moment.

 

I don't think the Na-style intentional whiff changes anything, I don't think it "resets" anything. Unless the player steps away after initially triggering the penalty condition then he gets breached. So you can "intentionally whiff" away all day but if you then hit the ball without stepping away you are breached.

[rogolf]

Is the intentional whiff a stroke or a practice swing? Regardless, it is an insignificant and not probable issue.

[nsxguy]

> @"Colin L" said:

> You may agree to disagree if you wish. I don't because it is not a matter of opinion. A practice swing is made without the intention of hitting a ball; a practice stroke is made by deliberately hitting a ball. In terms of the rules, it's a simple but fundamental difference. The former doesn't in itself involve a penalty but the latter might.

 

But it IS a "matter of opinion".

 

You don't seem to grasp the difference. I already told you I wasn't making a "RULES BASED" description so it doesn't involve a penalty nor does it involve intent.

 

So, in THAT context, the (generic) description "practice stroke" is correct.

[HitEmTrue]

@nsxguy , you are able to mince words with the best of them...er...us. With that in mind, and this being a rules forum, hopefully you see the value in Colin’s point.

 

[nsxguy]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> @nsxguy , you are able to mince words with the best of them...er...us. With that in mind, and this being a rules forum, hopefully you see the value in Colin’s point.

>

 

I TOTALLY understand Colin's point. I understand this is a Rules Forum. And I understand the definition of a "stroke" per the ROG.

 

However, I was simply describing how someone addresses the ball and makes his "practice ~~stroke~~ ~~swing~~ stroke", NOT referring to, nor describing any, rules or violations (or not) of same.

[Mr. Bean]

> @rogolf said:

> Is the intentional whiff a stroke or a practice swing? Regardless, it is an insignificant and not probable issue.

 

But the stance is still the same, I guess that is what matters.