Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[Bingo1976]

> @grm24 said:

> Just for you @dvdt

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

 

> @widow-maker said:

> It depends on the amateur who's playing.

> Take a scratch amateur from Oakland Hills or Oakmont who are used to fast, tricky, undulating greens and you've just eliminated the biggest gag factor. There are certainly other clubs around the country that have difficult greens and monster layouts that wouldn't be intimidated by Augusta. We're talking 85. An amateur that shoots par or better at Oakmont is certainly capable of breaking 85 at Augusta, even given the silly parameters the OP listed. If you took a hundred scratch amateurs from clubs of similar difficulty and played the course the day after the Masters, I guarantee you that you'd have a significant number of them break 85. Plenty wouldn't, but it certainly would be done.

 

I think you may not understand how handicaps work. A scratch at Oakland Hills, is shooting north of 76. A golfer shooting par at Oakland Hills is a +4 or 5.

[bub72ck]

A friend of mine shot 76 from the members tees several years ago. I know his game very well so I would think a scratch can definitely break 85 from the back tees if he played well. As of 2009 the rating was 78.1/137. It's probably a bit tougher today because of added length. But, the greens are so pure that putts hit online are going in the hole.

 

My only personal barometer is playing Pete Dye Golf Course in a US AM qualifier with a course/slope rating of 77.2/147. I shot 72 in one of the rounds. PDGC is not ANGC, but still very difficult, and I had 13 shots to give based on this question. I would say it's definitely possible.

[widow-maker]

> @Bingo1976 said:

> > @grm24 said:

> > Just for you @dvdt

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/masters-2019-eddie-pepperell-shared-some-fun-details-from-his-duel-with-famed-masters-marker-jeff-knox

>

> > @widow-maker said:

> > It depends on the amateur who's playing.

> > Take a scratch amateur from Oakland Hills or Oakmont who are used to fast, tricky, undulating greens and you've just eliminated the biggest gag factor. There are certainly other clubs around the country that have difficult greens and monster layouts that wouldn't be intimidated by Augusta. We're talking 85. An amateur that shoots par or better at Oakmont is certainly capable of breaking 85 at Augusta, even given the silly parameters the OP listed. If you took a hundred scratch amateurs from clubs of similar difficulty and played the course the day after the Masters, I guarantee you that you'd have a significant number of them break 85. Plenty wouldn't, but it certainly would be done.

>

> I think you may not understand how handicaps work. A scratch at Oakland Hills, is shooting north of 76. A golfer shooting par at Oakland Hills is a +4 or 5.

 

Jeff Knox is a .7 at Augusta, not a +4, and he's had many rounds under par there. Some days they shoot north of 76, some days they shoot close to par or under. But a +.7 is a scratch golfer and most of the good clubs have a few members that fit into that category. They might not play enough to be a +4, but they have competed in the past and can still have their moments. The main point is, the greens at Oakland Hills are just as challenging as the greens at Augusta, and that player isn't going to be freaked out by the speed and undulations. Augusta is a straight forward track with minimal rough. Make a couple of birdies in your round and you can just about make bogies the whole way around on the other holes and shoot 85. There are scratches who could cover the OP's stipulations, But, I'll agree that there are many more that wouldn't because of the OP's ridiculous parameters.

[cdnglf]

Don't know how this slipped my mind, but it seems like it might be relevant.

 

On Sunday evening I got a call from a friend who lives in Georgia who is friends with a member at Augusta National.

Excited to see and play Augusta for the first time, I filed a flight plan, jumped in my Cirrus, and flew overnight all the way from western Canada to get there.

 

I got to the course on Monday morning, only to learn that my friend had hurt his neck at the Augusta Hooters, and wouldn't be able the play. His member friend had some unexpected subprime mortgages to foreclose on, and he couldn't play either. But he sent me a text: "just show up - we need the green fees to keep dues down" . So I grabbed my bag, hopped on my rental Vespa, and headed for the course. Hootie Johnson met me at the bag drop, mumbled something about Mike Weir and not lifting the toilet seat, and told me to go away. I was devastated: the grumpiest old man in the world had just told me get off the nicest lawn in the world. Fortunately, Fred Ridley was there too. He patted Hootie on the head, gave me a pimento cheese sandwich and pointed me in the direction of the practice green. He is as nice as he seems on TV! However, he also broke some bad news: due to the media playing later in the day, there were no caddies available. I was going to have to face Augusta National alone.

 

I hurried over to the practice green to familiarize myself with the speed and undulations. The greens are tricky, but they run true. I quickly realized that on these pristine surfaces I was more likely to sink putts from outside of six feet than I am used to. I didn't bother hitting any balls - I am short but WRX standards (only 307 average) and a bit wild, but Augusta is as wide as a football field. I knew that a couple of ZJ practice swings on the first tee would be all I'd need.

 

As a single, they sent me out first. The course was in epic condition - completely unchanged from Tiger's dramatic win the day before. I shot 42 on the front, and 39 on the back. Made a birdie on 13. That hole is so easy! Did I mention that I my handicap is 0.0?

 

All in all, a great day. I sure am glad I had 61 minutes of practice beforehand.

I don't know guys... does this match OP's criteria?

 

 

 

[sharkiesj]

> @cdnglf said:

> Don't know how this slipped my mind, but it seems like it might be relevant.

>

> On Sunday evening I got a call from a friend who lives in Georgia who is friends with a member at Augusta National.

> Excited to see and play Augusta for the first time, I filed a flight plan, jumped in my Cirrus, and flew overnight all the way from western Canada to get there.

>

> I got to the course on Monday morning, only to learn that my friend had hurt his neck at the Augusta Hooters, and wouldn't be able the play. His member friend had some unexpected subprime mortgages to foreclose on, and he couldn't play either. But he sent me a text: "just show up - we need the green fees to keep dues down" . So I grabbed my bag, hopped on my rental Vespa, and headed for the course. Hootie Johnson met me at the bag drop, mumbled something about Mike Weir and not lifting the toilet seat, and told me to go away. I was devastated: the grumpiest old man in the world had just told me get off the nicest lawn in the world. Fortunately, Fred Ridley was there too. He patted Hootie on the head, gave me a pimento cheese sandwich and pointed me in the direction of the practice green. He is as nice as he seems on TV! However, he also broke some bad news: due to the media playing later in the day, there were no caddies available. I was going to have to face Augusta National alone.

>

> I hurried over to the practice green to familiarize myself with the speed and undulations. The greens are tricky, but they run true. I quickly realized that on these pristine surfaces I was more likely to sink putts from outside of six feet than I am used to. I didn't bother hitting any balls - I am short but WRX standards (only 307 average) and a bit wild, but Augusta is as wide as a football field. I knew that a couple of ZJ practice swings on the first tee would be all I'd need.

>

> As a single, they sent me out first. The course was in epic condition - completely unchanged from Tiger's dramatic win the day before. I shot 42 on the front, and 39 on the back. Made a birdie on 13. That hole is so easy! Did I mention that I my handicap is 0.0?

>

> All in all, a great day. I sure am glad I had 61 minutes of practice beforehand.

> I don't know guys... does this match OP's criteria?

>

>

>

 

Dreams don’t count.

[Poor Posture]

I know they are funny about who plays golf but is the public allowed to fish in the ponds?

[bscinstnct]

> @"Poor Posture" said:

> I know they are funny about who plays golf but is the public allowed to fish in the ponds?

 

Pond would be good for you ; )

[tropics]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but Geoff Ogilvy on fried egg podcast says an 18 handicap can play to their handicap at Augusta with a good caddy and as long as they don't get greedy.

[tropics]

His 2 part Augusta breakdown was very interesting listening.

[tiderider]

> @cdnglf said:

> Don't know how this slipped my mind, but it seems like it might be relevant.

>

> On Sunday evening I got a call from a friend who lives in Georgia who is friends with a member at Augusta National.

> Excited to see and play Augusta for the first time, I filed a flight plan, jumped in my Cirrus, and flew overnight all the way from western Canada to get there.

>

> I got to the course on Monday morning, only to learn that my friend had hurt his neck at the Augusta Hooters, and wouldn't be able the play. His member friend had some unexpected subprime mortgages to foreclose on, and he couldn't play either. But he sent me a text: "just show up - we need the green fees to keep dues down" . So I grabbed my bag, hopped on my rental Vespa, and headed for the course. Hootie Johnson met me at the bag drop, mumbled something about Mike Weir and not lifting the toilet seat, and told me to go away. I was devastated: the grumpiest old man in the world had just told me get off the nicest lawn in the world. Fortunately, Fred Ridley was there too. He patted Hootie on the head, gave me a pimento cheese sandwich and pointed me in the direction of the practice green. He is as nice as he seems on TV! However, he also broke some bad news: due to the media playing later in the day, there were no caddies available. I was going to have to face Augusta National alone.

>

> I hurried over to the practice green to familiarize myself with the speed and undulations. The greens are tricky, but they run true. I quickly realized that on these pristine surfaces I was more likely to sink putts from outside of six feet than I am used to. I didn't bother hitting any balls - I am short but WRX standards (only 307 average) and a bit wild, but Augusta is as wide as a football field. I knew that a couple of ZJ practice swings on the first tee would be all I'd need.

>

> As a single, they sent me out first. The course was in epic condition - completely unchanged from Tiger's dramatic win the day before. I shot 42 on the front, and 39 on the back. Made a birdie on 13. That hole is so easy! Did I mention that I my handicap is 0.0?

>

> All in all, a great day. I sure am glad I had 61 minutes of practice beforehand.

> I don't know guys... does this match OP's criteria?

>

>

>

 

what happened at the hooters?

[MtlJeff]

It's been posted many times already, maybe buried on page 37 or 44 or 22....who knows.

 

But assuming we are talking about tournament conditions and not an actual tournament (with masters pressure, tv cameras etc). Than the argument is simply about whether or not the course rating is 85.

 

I believe 85 would be the highest rating in the world for a golf course

[cdnglf]

> @tiderider said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > Don't know how this slipped my mind, but it seems like it might be relevant.

> >

> > On Sunday evening I got a call from a friend who lives in Georgia who is friends with a member at Augusta National.

> > Excited to see and play Augusta for the first time, I filed a flight plan, jumped in my Cirrus, and flew overnight all the way from western Canada to get there.

> >

> > I got to the course on Monday morning, only to learn that my friend had hurt his neck at the Augusta Hooters, and wouldn't be able the play. His member friend had some unexpected subprime mortgages to foreclose on, and he couldn't play either. But he sent me a text: "just show up - we need the green fees to keep dues down" . So I grabbed my bag, hopped on my rental Vespa, and headed for the course. Hootie Johnson met me at the bag drop, mumbled something about Mike Weir and not lifting the toilet seat, and told me to go away. I was devastated: the grumpiest old man in the world had just told me get off the nicest lawn in the world. Fortunately, Fred Ridley was there too. He patted Hootie on the head, gave me a pimento cheese sandwich and pointed me in the direction of the practice green. He is as nice as he seems on TV! However, he also broke some bad news: due to the media playing later in the day, there were no caddies available. I was going to have to face Augusta National alone.

> >

> > I hurried over to the practice green to familiarize myself with the speed and undulations. The greens are tricky, but they run true. I quickly realized that on these pristine surfaces I was more likely to sink putts from outside of six feet than I am used to. I didn't bother hitting any balls - I am short but WRX standards (only 307 average) and a bit wild, but Augusta is as wide as a football field. I knew that a couple of ZJ practice swings on the first tee would be all I'd need.

> >

> > As a single, they sent me out first. The course was in epic condition - completely unchanged from Tiger's dramatic win the day before. I shot 42 on the front, and 39 on the back. Made a birdie on 13. That hole is so easy! Did I mention that I my handicap is 0.0?

> >

> > All in all, a great day. I sure am glad I had 61 minutes of practice beforehand.

> > I don't know guys... does this match OP's criteria?

> >

> >

> >

>

> what happened at the hooters?

 

Long story. You’d never believe it.

[seve1972]

YES!...Yes a "scratch golfer" (excluding pretenders) COULD break 85....

[seve1972]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> Okay, read the stipulations carefully, digest what tournament conditions are at the Masters, this scratch stranger says he guarantees he will break 80 (not maybe could) - who is betting even up any amount that would hurt to lose he does it?

 

I'd even give that pretender odds he does NOT

[NoFancyUsername.]

> @cdnglf said:

> Don't know how this slipped my mind, but it seems like it might be relevant.

>

> On Sunday evening I got a call from a friend who lives in Georgia who is friends with a member at Augusta National.

> Excited to see and play Augusta for the first time, I filed a flight plan, jumped in my Cirrus, and flew overnight all the way from western Canada to get there.

>

> I got to the course on Monday morning, only to learn that my friend had hurt his neck at the Augusta Hooters, and wouldn't be able the play. His member friend had some unexpected subprime mortgages to foreclose on, and he couldn't play either. But he sent me a text: "just show up - we need the green fees to keep dues down" . So I grabbed my bag, hopped on my rental Vespa, and headed for the course. Hootie Johnson met me at the bag drop, mumbled something about Mike Weir and not lifting the toilet seat, and told me to go away. I was devastated: the grumpiest old man in the world had just told me get off the nicest lawn in the world. Fortunately, Fred Ridley was there too. He patted Hootie on the head, gave me a pimento cheese sandwich and pointed me in the direction of the practice green. He is as nice as he seems on TV! However, he also broke some bad news: due to the media playing later in the day, there were no caddies available. I was going to have to face Augusta National alone.

>

> I hurried over to the practice green to familiarize myself with the speed and undulations. The greens are tricky, but they run true. I quickly realized that on these pristine surfaces I was more likely to sink putts from outside of six feet than I am used to. I didn't bother hitting any balls - I am short but WRX standards (only 307 average) and a bit wild, but Augusta is as wide as a football field. I knew that a couple of ZJ practice swings on the first tee would be all I'd need.

>

> As a single, they sent me out first. The course was in epic condition - completely unchanged from Tiger's dramatic win the day before. I shot 42 on the front, and 39 on the back. Made a birdie on 13. That hole is so easy! Did I mention that I my handicap is 0.0?

>

> All in all, a great day. I sure am glad I had 61 minutes of practice beforehand.

> I don't know guys... does this match OP's criteria?

>

>

>

 

What fuel do you use in the Cirrus?

[tatertot]

> @"NoFancyUsername." said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > Don't know how this slipped my mind, but it seems like it might be relevant.

> >

> > On Sunday evening I got a call from a friend who lives in Georgia who is friends with a member at Augusta National.

> > Excited to see and play Augusta for the first time, I filed a flight plan, jumped in my Cirrus, and flew overnight all the way from western Canada to get there.

> >

> > I got to the course on Monday morning, only to learn that my friend had hurt his neck at the Augusta Hooters, and wouldn't be able the play. His member friend had some unexpected subprime mortgages to foreclose on, and he couldn't play either. But he sent me a text: "just show up - we need the green fees to keep dues down" . So I grabbed my bag, hopped on my rental Vespa, and headed for the course. Hootie Johnson met me at the bag drop, mumbled something about Mike Weir and not lifting the toilet seat, and told me to go away. I was devastated: the grumpiest old man in the world had just told me get off the nicest lawn in the world. Fortunately, Fred Ridley was there too. He patted Hootie on the head, gave me a pimento cheese sandwich and pointed me in the direction of the practice green. He is as nice as he seems on TV! However, he also broke some bad news: due to the media playing later in the day, there were no caddies available. I was going to have to face Augusta National alone.

> >

> > I hurried over to the practice green to familiarize myself with the speed and undulations. The greens are tricky, but they run true. I quickly realized that on these pristine surfaces I was more likely to sink putts from outside of six feet than I am used to. I didn't bother hitting any balls - I am short but WRX standards (only 307 average) and a bit wild, but Augusta is as wide as a football field. I knew that a couple of ZJ practice swings on the first tee would be all I'd need.

> >

> > As a single, they sent me out first. The course was in epic condition - completely unchanged from Tiger's dramatic win the day before. I shot 42 on the front, and 39 on the back. Made a birdie on 13. That hole is so easy! Did I mention that I my handicap is 0.0?

> >

> > All in all, a great day. I sure am glad I had 61 minutes of practice beforehand.

> > I don't know guys... does this match OP's criteria?

> >

> >

> >

>

> What fuel do you use in the Cirrus?

 

Tears of the middle class ... DUH!

[cdnglf]

> @"NoFancyUsername." said:

> > @cdnglf said:

> > Don't know how this slipped my mind, but it seems like it might be relevant.

> >

> > On Sunday evening I got a call from a friend who lives in Georgia who is friends with a member at Augusta National.

> > Excited to see and play Augusta for the first time, I filed a flight plan, jumped in my Cirrus, and flew overnight all the way from western Canada to get there.

> >

> > I got to the course on Monday morning, only to learn that my friend had hurt his neck at the Augusta Hooters, and wouldn't be able the play. His member friend had some unexpected subprime mortgages to foreclose on, and he couldn't play either. But he sent me a text: "just show up - we need the green fees to keep dues down" . So I grabbed my bag, hopped on my rental Vespa, and headed for the course. Hootie Johnson met me at the bag drop, mumbled something about Mike Weir and not lifting the toilet seat, and told me to go away. I was devastated: the grumpiest old man in the world had just told me get off the nicest lawn in the world. Fortunately, Fred Ridley was there too. He patted Hootie on the head, gave me a pimento cheese sandwich and pointed me in the direction of the practice green. He is as nice as he seems on TV! However, he also broke some bad news: due to the media playing later in the day, there were no caddies available. I was going to have to face Augusta National alone.

> >

> > I hurried over to the practice green to familiarize myself with the speed and undulations. The greens are tricky, but they run true. I quickly realized that on these pristine surfaces I was more likely to sink putts from outside of six feet than I am used to. I didn't bother hitting any balls - I am short but WRX standards (only 307 average) and a bit wild, but Augusta is as wide as a football field. I knew that a couple of ZJ practice swings on the first tee would be all I'd need.

> >

> > As a single, they sent me out first. The course was in epic condition - completely unchanged from Tiger's dramatic win the day before. I shot 42 on the front, and 39 on the back. Made a birdie on 13. That hole is so easy! Did I mention that I my handicap is 0.0?

> >

> > All in all, a great day. I sure am glad I had 61 minutes of practice beforehand.

> > I don't know guys... does this match OP's criteria?

> >

> >

> >

>

> What fuel do you use in the Cirrus?

 

Red Bull and Slim Jims

 

[Golfer from MO]

Couple that with the expectation that a player averages about 3 shots over their handicap, and your buddy may well be able to shoot around 81 on average.

This is Augusta greens notwithstanding. Add 4 shots for thier contour speed uniqueness to the avg golfer and you have 85 on the # if his swing is right. Second time likely 2-3 less without a blowup hole and given he mashes it off the tee like some of us do. If he ain't 290 with roll min hea not the right kind of scratch to take that challenge.

Just my 2cents!

[sgersten19]

I've been lucky to play Augusta twice from the tourney tees and the course is almost always at top conditions.

I'm just an ok player and shot 77-78.

 

It's a real boom-bust type of golf course. 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 18 are exceedingly difficult holes, but 2, 3, 8, 13, 15, and 16 are true birdie holes.

 

A true scratch player with a proper caddie would be low mid 70s.

[dpb5031]

A true scratch who is a strong lag putter and having a good ballstriking day could do it. There are MUCH tougher Tour stops than AN. Try playing the Champions Course at PGA Natl. in 25 mph winds. There's water and OB everywhere. Have an "off" day there and it'd be embarrassing.

 

AN has huge fairways and practically no rough. A smart scratch used to playing 7k yards should easily be able to par 8-10 of the less difficult holes and play conservatively on the remainder.

 

Of course, playing it without a caddy makes it more challenging than with, but not impossible. If you have playing partners though, you can learn a ton about how your ball will react on the greens by paying attention to theirs.

[bladehunter]

Regular playing partner shared his score card from AN last month. Played around 7 years ago when he was in college. His best memory was a +2 cap then. He shot 76. He said the greens were the defense ( of course ) and he only made 1 birdie ( 13) . But also said that if he could play it for a month he was sure he’d break par after learning the greens.

 

I’d love to have a shot. But not likely to happen.

[smashdn]

So, what is the handicap of the lowest placing amateur in the 2019 field? I don't gots the energies to look it up but I bet that might give you a little idea. If they are a plus I bet they are a +2 or so.

 

Just a thought.

[3jacker]

> @smashdn said:

> So, what is the handicap of the lowest placing amateur in the 2019 field?

 

He's not handicapped, I think he was just stoned in that butler cabin thing.

 

 

I'd venture to guess it's closer to +4 or better.

 

 

[smashdn]

Is that Jovan Rebula, Ernie Els' nephew?

[Forged4ever]

> @stu_man said:

> Easily.. Pine Valley.. maybe

 

Depends on the “Scratch,” at both places, especially Pine, and their caddie will be incredibly critical at Pine, and never having Played Augusta, I can’t speak to the caddie’s importance.

 

A former tourney tested Plus, be they Am or Pro, who due to family, business, age, outside commitments and life in general who’s drifted north to scratch(Bear in mind that Jack’s a 3.2~ or there abouts)??

 

Absolutely they could do it

 

Some sh*** & giggles “scratch?”

 

NFW....

 

They’d be lucky to break 90

 

Though I’ve never Played Augusta, I’ve Played Pine many times, from both the fronts and the Championship tees and my same opinion applies here as with Augusta.

 

If someone has “been there done that,” yea, but if not?

 

NFW....

 

All the Best,

RP

 

 

[sfiggins]

Does he get to putt with the flagstick in?

[wareagle12]

I just wasted time and pulled scoring averages for the Masters, Valspar, and RBC. RBC scoring average for the week was .88 strokes over par. Valspar was .01 under and Augusta was .12 under. Are we saying no scratch could break 86 at Harbour Town? I understand it's a different field, but that's crazy. No one here would say that, but the best players in the world averaged higher scores relative to par there. The law of averages would win. Even if it's course rating is 80, some would some wouldn't.

[QuigleyDU]

It all depends on conditions. This is kind of a pointless conversation to just throw out " will he break 85" Zach Johnson won the masters with a +1 score at the end of four rounds. Recently Tiger won it with a score of -13 after they have put in a lot of effort to lengthen the course. Why are the scores different? the wind blew non stop when Z.J. won. It had rained and was playing soft for Tiger.

 

I would say the answer to the questions is. Maybe.

[Fourpar18]

I have a course in Japan that is tighter than Augusta and the where the trees are there its jungle (OB) at my course. If I had a descent driving day I BELIEVE I could shoot below 85. We play a "from the tips" at that local course and I have shot 77,78, 80 and it plays over 7000 yards. I would love to give it a try through...

[RobotDoctor]

Out of curiosity, having no real relevance in this discussion, how many people who believe a scratch can score 85 or less under the criteria ever stepped foot on Augusta National Golf Club? Before I went to the Masters (Monday 2015) I would have been in the yes camp because I thought I knew the course so well after watching three decades plus of Masters coverage on TV. After stepping foot on the course in pre-Masters tournament condition (albeit very close to tournament conditions) I believe under the criteria no. Many of the greens are more severe than how TV depicts. The course is steeper and more undulating that TV shows. While Augusta National Golf Club has wide fairways, being on the wrong side of the fairway makes some approaches very, very tricky. Miss a target on a few greens by a matter of 5-10 feet and the result will be not ideal. If the scratch has a poor putting round I doubt they break 90. The the scratch doesn't have an exceptional short game then they're already behind the 8 ball. If the scratch doesn't have excellent distance control or they cannot generate spin to hold the greens then absolutely no way they break 85. It's not to say some scratch player out there doesn't possess these skills but if they do I would believe they are a + handicap, not just scratch. I wouldn't say a scratch definitively cannot break 85 but I would take that bet any day, **under the original criteria**.